Teen dies after Taser is used on him

[Judi Lynn]

Posted on Thu, Dec. 30, 2004




NAPLES


Teen dies after Taser is used on him

A teenager in Collier County is the third person in Florida this month to die after being zapped with a Taser.

Associated Press


NAPLES - A teenager died after he was zapped with a Taser gun and doused with a substance similar to pepper spray during a fight with Collier County sheriff's deputies, officials said.

Christopher Hernandez, 19, of Fort Myers was the third suspect to die in Florida this month after being subdued with a Taser gun. Hernandez died Tuesday, several hours after officials say he attacked deputies, kicking and ripping their uniforms. He ignored orders to stop.
(snip)

In the first case this month, 36-year-old Kevin M. Downing of Coral Springs died after he was zapped with a Taser on Dec. 15 by Hollywood police, and 31-year-old Timothy Bolander died Dec. 23 after being zapped with a Taser by Delray Beach police. The cause of those deaths has not been determined.
(snip)

But Hernandez's relatives say he was badly beaten. They said that when they saw him at the emergency room his head was swollen, his eyes were ''blood red'' and his arms and face had road rash. Blood from somewhere on his head stained the hospital pillow.
(snip/...)

http://www.miami.com/mld/miamiherald/news/state/10525799.htm
(Free registration is required)

[soothsayer]

1. wtf is up with police and tasers, and tasers KILLING people?

I've never heard such a spate of taserings.

[biftonnorton]

2. More At Work Than Taser

"But Hernandez's relatives say he was badly beaten. They said that when they saw him at the emergency room his head was swollen, his eyes were ''blood red'' and his arms and face had road rash. Blood from somewhere on his head stained the hospital pillow."


Sounds like more going on than just Tasering. I've seen quite a few police and security trainees get Tasered as part of their training in Taser use and none of them died from it. They do die sometimes from the people they protect you from going berserk on them, tho.

[Ms_Mary]

15. My husband had to be tasered, along with all the other officers

in his dept. before they were allowed to carry them. He's also been pepper sprayed and tear gassed. In his training, they were told tasers were supposed to be perfectly safe, even for people with pacemakers or heart conditions.

[w4rma]

25. Even for folks with pacemakers and heart conditions?

They are feeding Police officers a load of BS.

[Ms_Mary]

32. And that's a problem.

It was one of the first questions I asked him and that is what they were told. I've been keeping my eyes out lately because it seems that it's not true.

[0007]

44. How long did it take for your husband to recover from

the taser hit, and how old is he?

[Ms_Mary]

49. As soon as it was over, he was fine except

the probe left a slightly sore spot on his side where they shot him. He's 29. Some of the other officers were in their 50s and were fine. He also said it was very painful and he pitied anyone who got tasered. That doesn't mean he'd never use it if he felt he needed to.

[0007]

56. Thanks for the run down.

[Renew Deal]

10. They are almost all coming from Florida.

The tasers must have been deployed recently. They're tasering anybody for anything down there.

[teach1st]

3. Here's a link to story with no registration

St. Petersburg Times

http://www.sptimes.com/2004/12/30/State/Teen_dies_after_Taser.shtml

[DS1]

4. I'd rather take a good old PR-24 beatdown than a taser

Shit.

[shadowknows69]

5. Jeb is training GW's future gestapo in FL. n/t

[Massachusetts]

6. Geheime Staatspolizei

Gestapo tactics CONTINUE in OUR country! OUTRAGEOUS:mad:

[Guitarman]

7. No sympathy for this guy

Going to play the personal responsibility card on this one. He was in the back seat and would still be alive if would have simply stayed there. If you get out and attack a police officer, what the heck do you expect them to do? Use harsh language. This guy was proof that Darwin was wrong.

[RuleofLaw]

8. That's right

Lets have the death penalty for not behaving and following orders.



<sarcasm>:crazy:

[Guitarman]

13. OK. What should the police have done?

You are all morally superior and intelligent. Or better yet. What would you do if someone gets out of the back seat of a car and attackes you. Talk him to death. It is so easy to bash the police from the safety of your keyboard with your rose colored glasses. Wake up and smell the reality that people are too stupid to stay still with their mouth shut when they are stopped ny the police. If you physically attack a policeman you are opening yourself up for an ass kicking. I do not feel sorry for anyone who brings this down on himself. If he would have stayed in the car he would be alive today. End of story.

[Ms_Mary]

18. I don't want my husband to use excessive force at work but I do

want him to come home at the end of his shift, for which his pay is insufficient. I am the last person to support excessive force, but they have to be able to do their jobs. They should not be expected to suffer unneccessary physical harm or death just to be gentle to a person doing their damnedest to hurt them.

[Massacure]

77. Tasers are overrated for their "non-lethality."

I'm sure a baton would have worked just as good, yet is less likely to kill someone.

You can decide how hard to hit someone with a baton. A taser is usually either on or off.

[BiggJawn]

9. Just like Rodney King, huh?

S'Yeah....Oh, BTW, welcome to DU. Enjoy your SHORT stay here!

Achtung, PERPS!

[GCP]

11. How do you know he wasn't dragged out by the police?

3 dead in one state like this is a sign of police being out of control.

[Ms_Mary]

20. Hopefully they have car cameras. My DH does, and it can't be turned off.

[Occulus]

12. I guess it was ok for the police to

judge him guilty, and deserving of the death penalty, then... and all without a judge, jury, or messy and expensive pretrial incarceration! We should have police doing more of this; think of all the money we'll save in our judicial system!!

The people who have reportedly died after being hit by a taser all seem to be in their prime- in their twenties, their thirties. I don't know that my heart can take being tasered- I'm almost thirty myself, so apparently I'm at risk of being killed by a taser now- but the officer using it knows his can (as most departments require police who use them to have them used on them), so I must ask: is there anything I can wear that would feed the taser back to the cop using it? I'd rather have it affect someone who already knows he can take it, thanks.

[Guitarman]

14. If you do not want to be tasered,

do not put yourself in the position of having it happen. Some things in life are your choice and can not be blamed on anyone else.

[joeunderdog]

19. So when a broke retiree kills Ken Lay...

you'll be high-fiving?

[leesa]

23. Right. Like the 70+ year old woman they HAD to taser and the pregnant

who they tasered twice in her abdoman because of a noise complaint. AFTER the stereo at the wedding had been turned off in response to the "police", they then struck her father, she ran and hid in the closet, they found her and tasered her in the closet. Yah, I have a lot of faith in the poor police to do the right thing.

[Guitarman]

24. I am not talking about every instance where a taser is used.

But in this case. I still have no sympathy for a guy who is stupid enough to attack a policeman. Especially since they were not even arresting him.
As far as the police go. They are like everyone else on the planet. There are good ones and there are a$$holes. But, I would not want to be one. For I know of no other profession where your every action is so scrutinized by Monday morning keyboard quarterbacks who feel so free to spout their wisdom and be judge and jury. Especially when they themselves have never been near a situation that they are speaking about.

[Occulus]

28. several years ago I was walking down the street

after having ran to make the crosswalk light. I was about 1/4 mile away from the light when a police car pulled up next to the sidewalk. The officer in the car then began to question me about why I had been running. I explained why, and he then asked me where I lived.

This was 1995.

Today, after having established that I was not under arrest for anything, I would be fearful of turning my back and continuing my walk home under those circumstances. Now I ask you- who is making the situation worse- petty criminals, or "less lethal" weaponry? Keep in mind, these are not "less THAN lethal", they are simply "less lethal".

on edit: two years ago I was slammed up against the wall of my apartment and possibly received a fractured rib as a result (a doorknob got me in the back). The police were there for a noise complaint- seven of them. The one who slammed me up against the wall did it because I touched him on the shoulder with the end of a ball-point pen so I could get his attention and request his badge number. "D#on't fucking touch me again, you hear!??!?" he screamed in my face, whilst blinding me directly in the eyes point-blank (a foot away) with his MagLite. The other six officers shuffled and mumbled and did nothing.

I later learned that this deputy was known for having a short fuse. He was about 6'4" tall, weighed at least 280#, and there was lil' ol' 5'7" 140# half-his-size me trying to civilly get his attention after he ignored my repeated "Officer? Excuse me, officer? Could you... um, Sir, excuse me...". I tried to be civil, and it got me ignored, so I either had to shut up and take not knowing who the seven officers in my apartment were, or be slightly less civil to get their attention.

I didn't go to jail, but I could could have and I could argue I got beat up by the cops in my own home (apparently, legally speaking, the police could argue I "assaulted" the officer. Yes, with the cap of a ball-point pen). They later claimed there were only five officers, despite my having proof from their own dispatcher's report that there were seven there. The deputy who slammed me against the wall got transferred. Oh, and I later also learned that there were seven there, two of whom were in training. Nice example to set for them, huh?

So you know what? Yeah, I'm pretty fucking scared of being beat up and hauled off by police in general for nothing at all these days, and if you'll read my other long post in this thread, you'll get a explanation why I think this could be the case in general. One jail stay- even for nothing at all- and I could lose my job and thereby my way of life.

There's no true protection for the truly innocent anymore. Everyone is a potential threat. Potentially deadly force is therefore ok to use.

A tripod stool with a cracked leg. That's what our legal system is for those who are accused.

[genieroze]

71. "I Am The Law" Judge Dredd. lol eom

[joeunderdog]

17. Let's kill them all.

Then there won't be no more troublemakers.

Let's start cutting hands off for stealing, too.


Making the world safe and happy...

[eleonora]

60. it was an accident, not a premeditated murder

:eyes: and the guy fought them.

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

22. This guy was UNARMED and BEAT UP TO DEATH. You think it's OK?

If you ask me, the taser thing is a smokescreen.

There is NO excuse for an unarmed suspect to be beat up to death. None.

[Guitarman]

29. And if he would have stayed in the freaking car..

he would still be alive. He made a choice to get out of the car and physically confront the police. If I am the policeman and you come at me and start hitting me and fighting to the point of ripping my uniform off, I will commence to defend myself at the expense of your physical well being.

Excuse me if I do not have you fill out a questionaire before the fight asking you if you have any physical ailments that I should be aware of. And excuse me if I do not feel like sacrificing my physical well being just so that I can be the brunt of some deep seeded rage you feel because I represent "THE MAN" that you happen to be rebeling against. If I am a cop and you attack me, you can guarantee that you will be the one that will end up in the hospital and not me. No police force in the country pays well enough to sacrifice themselves when they are attacked.

[Occulus]

34. no police force in the country is paid specifically to kill either

They are there to enforce the law. Even for civilians, "he was attacking me so I killed him" does not fly; one must still respond with equal force. The man was unarmed; he did not deserve to die for his mistake. His punishment should have been the purview of a judge, a jury, and a court of law. That's what civilized nations do.

-or-

Would you kill someone who punched you? Would their punch be justification for their death? Does simply being a police officer make the answer to that "yes", and make that answer justifiable? Do you believe police are "better" or somehow deserving of "more" rights where self-defense is concerned?

I hate caste systems, and where it comes to "one job makes you a better person, better citizen, and more deserving of stretched legal protections" is where it crosses the line.

[Guitarman]

43. This guy attacking the cop...

was not civilized. He had no stake in the traffic stop. Why did he get out of the car? It was a brainless thing to do.

Responding with equal force is much easier said than done. If you punch me, how do I know what your intent is. I know for sure that you mean to do me physical harm. If I feel like my life is threatened in any way by the person that punched me, I will defend my life at all costs. If I were a cop, I would never place my life behind that of someone that is attacking me.

They used a taser and pepper spray and it appears that he kept on resisting. Why would anyone do that? Does this guy have a right to resist?

[Occulus]

65. Do they have a right to kill if people resist?

Would you have police shoot protesters first who got out of line? Even if a protester tries to attack an officer during a protest?

Where exactly is that line drawn?

Suppose:

Police do as in this article and a crowd gathers. The crowd spontaneously decides the police were wrong and begin to confront them.

Do the police have the right then and there to pull their guns and start shooting? Are we now legally unable to confront police when we know they are in the wrong?

We'll never know about this guy's motives. Why he attacked the police will remain unanswered. Also, to quote the article directly, "(t)he two Delray Beach police officers who used a Taser stun gun on Bolander have been reprimanded in the past for minor offenses but never investigated for use-of-force incidents on the job, records show."

It sounds to me as if they honestly didn't need to taser him. Think logically. The article mentions that there were at least two officers present who continue to remain on duty, so they were probably *barely* injured.

"At least one deputy suffered knee injuries."

So, again from the article, we are to understand that there were at least two officers present, one suffered knee injuries, and

"Francisco Casarez Jr., 35, and Steven Hynes, 33, have remained on active duty since the fatal incident."

we can also presume two are still on the job as of publication. Unless one assumes there were more than two officers involved, one or more of whose injuries were more serious (and which we aren't being told about), the injuries the dead guy inflicted on the officers present weren't even bad enough to keep them from their patrols; in other words, the injuries were minor, even trivial. If, however, you assume there were three or more officers involved, it still doesn't make any sense, since one unarmed man attacking three oficers ought to be no contest in the officers' favor- unless one officer was seriously injured, which the article likely would have mentioned in such an occurrance.

Sorry, but I can't side with the officers, just because what they did doesn't make any sense. If there were only two- and they are still on duty- but one was injured- then the injury was so minor as to not keep him from his job. Unless he's a wuss, apparently; a "knee injury" is most likely a bad scrape in this case, if in fact the guy is still on the job. We can't forget about that; were he lamed, he wouldn't be out on patrol.

At least, for the sake of the public, I would hope so.....

[w4rma]

27. You mean "right". You mean "This guy was proof that Darwin was

correct. I.E. he did something stupid before he could reproduce that took him out of the gene pool.

That said, you should be careful before endorsing police brutality, Guitarman. Police brutality is a halmark of authoritarian nations. The more police overuse force, the more that our nation has suck towards authoritarianism.

[Guitarman]

36. No, I meant wrong.

This guy was not at the top of the food chain. I think he was a few links down. If I am in the back seat of the car and the police stop it. I stay in the car and I get to go home at night. Survival of the fittest in action.

What you call police brutality fades in the reality of a physical battle. Meaning that when you are attacked in such a way, it is very difficult to be able to use exactly the correct amount of force. After you say "Halt, or I shall say halt again" and that does not work. What do you do then. Cops have a survival instinct just like everyone else. And they have a right to defend themselves.

This guy created the situation that took his life. No one else did. To blame the cops is to pass the buck beceuse you do not feel like taking responsibility for your own actions.

[progressivebydesign]

59. I agree with you.. but you will be attacked here and called names..

I have been here for almost 4 years.. and I totally agree with you. If you attack the police, what do you expect? The police carry guns, which are lethal weapons, one out of control suspect can grab one gun, and then it's gets ugly and deadly.

I have no fear of being shot with a taser because I don't commit crimes AND I don't attack police officers. Sounds like an easy plan, yes?

Forgive the morally superior folks here at DU who think that attacking a cop calls for a time out... they have little real life experience, I'm thinking.

[eleonora]

62. I'll have to agree with you and guitarman

If the guy chose to fight them, then he ran the risk of hurting himself, the taser did, so be it. I'm not going to defend the criminal.

[Jose Diablo]

67. I suppose

but what of that, what was he, a 9 years old boy that was tasered because he wouldn't give his gameboy to the school officials or the police?

I am not sure that, to quote "I don't commit crimes AND I don't attack police officers. Sounds like an easy plan" will keep you from being tasered.

As for morally superior, I don't consider myself morally superior, but I also know that just because somebody wears a uniform, that doesn't necessarily make them more moral or superior in any way either.

I truth, what I have noticed is that with many, observing the absolutely craziness of society at its worst, makes people kinda hard and less that totally empathetic. It makes it hard to see others in anyway except 'it's them or us'.

Besides all this, I don't know IF the police were attacked and if they were, I don't know if the intensity of the attack would justify the intensity of the response by the police. There is such a thing as sufficient force as versus excessive force. If he didn't have a weapon, then the force used that ended-up killing him would be considered excessive. Have you considered the possibility that it wasn't the taser that killed him, that it was excessive force and the police are saying the taser killed him or rather the coroner is saying the taser when clearly he was beat to death and didn't possess a weapon.

The police are well aware of what constitutes excessive force and what can legally happen to them if they cross that line. Are they using the taser as the excuse for a dead person in their custody? Maybe someone they killed when they didn't have to.

[genieroze]

70. Sig Heil. eom

[DELUSIONAL]

16. We are only hearing the pig cops side of the story

and cops lie as frequently as the military does -- about absolutely everything.

I'll wait for cause of death from a pathologist independent from the Police Department.

I've seen cops go berserk and then they attempt to come up with assorted cover stories (or toss the hand gun carried just in case the shoot an unarmed "suspect").

[Ms_Mary]

21. Do you think all cops are pigs?

or do you realize that a lot of them are out there busting their asses every day doing an important job?

[Guitarman]

30. The only way that a cop can be admired any more,

is if he is the one on the slab at the morgue. It makes me sick.

[shadowknows69]

31. that's wrong dude

it's the bad apple thing. Most cops are out there bustin ass doin the job 90% of us can't.

[Ms_Mary]

33. The good ones don't get the publicity. It's a mostly thankless job.

[Occulus]

48. that's because when the bad ones abuse their authority

it's often sweeping and ends in death for someone innocent.

This is not the fault of police in general. This is the fault of a grossly punitive legal system that jails for even the most innocuous of offenses, coupled with a social structure and society that considers any and all lawbreakers of any stripe to be really, really bad people. Were most of us to get arrested, even for a few days, and even for something which was later determined was not our fault, we would likely lose our job (I know I would were I jailed for even, say, five days straight, even for something it ended being proved I didn't do), and the consequences of that happening I don't think I need to go into.

What this leads to is a whole big pile of society- namely, those who depend on their weekly or biweekly paycheck to get the bills paid- being desperate to stay out of jail. We even know, deep down, that we can today be arrested, tell the whole truth the whole time, truly not be involved, and still somehow get jail time out of it.

We elect and reelect prosecutors, who campaign based in part on their record. Records include convictions, so we, the People, have made it in a prosecutor's own personal best interest to obtain as many convictions as possible (call this the "tough on crime syndrome" if you like). This is yet another point in the system where innocent people can be sucked in and destroyed, as overzealous prosecutions do indeed have an unfortunate place in all fifty states. It's just a fact of life under our laws and our system.

Speaking of our laws, a fun project would be to make a pile of each individual lawbook from each state, along with one Federal pile, and just see how much space that takes up. I can guarantee you, were such a reality publicized, people would start asking some serious questions. I know I would.

Yet somehow we continue to believe "ignorance of the law is no defense". It would be amusing if it didn't potentially affect each of us.

All of this contributes to a deep-seated resentment for police in general, as the "first line" of the law, although it is the "bad" ones only who reinforce the idea by cuffing and stuffing (or killing) the undeserving. When your financial life can be destroyed by even a short but undeserved stay in jail, thus possibly deeply affecting the futures of you and/or your family; when an employer can fire you simply for being jailed, no matter the reason, we make the relationship between the People and those they employ to keep them safe potentially more adversarial, as police are the ones who come and put you away in the first place. Thus, violence against them.

It's not a good situation.

[Ms_Mary]

53. I agree with that. And the justice system is so screwed up

They deal with a lot of repeat offenders. These people get jailed over and over and over again until somebody winds up getting murdered, severely injured or OD'd because of them. And yet, by the time DH finishes the arrest report, they've already walked out of the jail. We had that problem with several meth labs, including one where several people overdosed on the premises (rural area). They get arrested, bailed out, arrested, bailed out, somebody dies, repeat.

[Occulus]

54. ugh- meth labs

Yes, those need to be stopped; fortunately, they have tell-tales. Too bad they so often end up with a hot, fast fire, and the attendant maiming and death.

I hate meth and leth labs. One reason? They give the "war on (some) drugs legitimacy.

Would meth have arisen, I wonder, were marijuana legal?

[Ms_Mary]

58. I wish they'd just legalize pot and be done with it.

Pot doesn't scare me. I've never been scared of anyone high on pot. Meth - totally different story.

[shadowknows69]

61. Hopefully Michael Moore will bury the pharm companies with his next movie

they're the real power and propaganda behind MJ being illegal.

[Guitarman]

39. I understand that...

I respect cops and think that they get a bad wrap. But what I was pointing out that the only way that cops or soldiers ever get any respect is when they pay the ultimate price doing their jobs. I think that is sad.

[shadowknows69]

57. I apologize if I misunderstood you

been a hothead on a couple boards lately. Need to temper my temper :hippie:

[genieroze]

74. I misunderstood you, sorry. eom

[genieroze]

72. I wouldn't go that far. Face it, there are good cops and bad cops.

[genieroze]

73. delete dupe..

[Massachusetts]

35. There are too many POLICE

in this country acting like the Geheime Staatspolizei, and THAT GIVES THE GOOD COPS a BAD name.

A Police Officer has a difficult job at best, but thats the job he/she decided on.

The GOOD COPS know what it means to SERVE and PROTECT.

The BAD COPS could care less, its just a job for them.


OUR COUNTRY IS NOT A POLICE STATE, AND WE WILL NOT TOLERATE ONE EITHER!

[Ms_Mary]

41. Fond of that caps lock button?

I agree that the bad ones do give the good ones a bad name. Do I agree that there are too many cops? Not so much around here. They tend to be understaffed and underfunded here.

[Ms_Mary]

42. And the problem with jobs like police is

that the idea of being in control does attract people who may abuse power. Hence, crooked cops. I've known some of those too.

But I realize, being married to a cop, that most of them are just trying to do their job the best than can and earn a living. I know DH really appreciates it when people thank him because it happens so seldom. One of the coolest things was when he recovered a stolen 4-wheeler that belonged to a boy whose father had bought it for him when he was dying of cancer. The kid wrote him a thank you letter.

[Massachusetts]

46. "Do I agree that there are too many cops?"

Please read the post again.

There are are too many police in this country acting like.....

:hi:

[Ms_Mary]

51. Oops.

[sweetheart]

38. Yes, all cops are pigs until proven otherwise.

I expect all american cops to be potential murderers, and i'm very
very careful around them. When one is pleasant, i presume that he's
being pleasant between murders... and walk on egg shells. I've had
too many cop guns pointed at me to feel good about those goons... for
myself never having been armed, or guilty of any crime, ever... just
too many bad cops have been in my face, and i don't trust any of them,
even though surely a few are decent.

As an occasional cannabis smoker, i'm even more wary of them, as i am
"the enemy" in their war against americans.... so whilst i see your
concern that cops do a few good things once in a while, any time i
run in to them, its because they are in my face, and that is always
because they're picking on the wrong civilian trying to make trouble...
(pigs)... yes.

[Ms_Mary]

40. No wonder my husband doesn't like his job.

[sweetheart]

45. I met nice cop once

We, my fiance and i were driving west across virginia, and we had
gotten off the interstate to get in the trunk. Well, we had put our
chessboard on the roof of the car, and forgotten to take it back
inside.... we realized it after only driving a few feet... and low
and behold, only the black queen had fallen off the board. Well, a cop
came by, and using his floodlight helped us find the chess piece.

I felt very humbled for presuming all cops to be nasty... I also met
a cool cop on the dumbarton bridge once (bay area)... who pulled over
my trashy beater car for a light or something... and he had pity on
me and let me go without adding to my woes with a ticket.

So yes, i've met 2 nice ones. This contrasts with having guns drawn
and pointed at me by others in new york and california... being arrested
for saying "fuck you" in new york... and other such unpleasant threats
of violence from the police for not getting out of their way and other
bully tactics.

In britain, i've never met a bad police person. They don't carry guns,
and somehow it makes them more civil to interact with. I'm wholly
impressed and overwhelmed.

[William Bloode]

37. Man you have got that right!

I was a police officer for awhile in my youth. I had the whole "i'm gonna make a difference" attitude. Didn't take me long to realize the people i was working for/with were as crooked or worse than the people we were supposed to be after.I ended up leaving in disgust, when 2 officers gunned down a poor older black gentleman. No warning shots, nuthin', poor feller was just in the wrong place at the wrong time.

Call me crazy, but i was always of the mind that those who are in charge of enforcing the law should be held more accountable to the law they uphold than your average citizen. Not less accountable as it is now.

[0007]

26. The brown shirts are winning for sure

The two Delray Beach police officers who used a Taser stun gun on Bolander have been reprimanded in the past for minor offenses but never investigated for use-of-force incidents on the job, records show.

Francisco Casarez Jr., 35, and Steven Hynes, 33, have remained on active duty since the fatal incident.

This is beyond the pale.

[spanone]

47. Hey, Bernie Kerik can't be wrong. He sold us these items.

[m0nkeyneck]

50. "attacked deputies, kicking and ripping their uniforms. He ignored orders"

the cops were prolly being pricks; regardless... he didn't deserve to die but do you expect the cops to just stand there and take a beating? i don't..

[Solon]

55. Its not about taking a beating...

cops are trained to use enough force in a situation to subdue a suspect, no more, no less. If the kid pulled a knife, or grabbed a crowbar, I wouldn't be debating this with you. But he didn't, first he was outnumbered, two, he was unarmed, and three, by the extent of the injuries reported, it sounds like they dragged and beat the shit out of him, then tasered him, while probably half dead. Excessive force applies to both civilians and cops, almost equally, but cops are more likely to get a pass.

When people talk about excessive force, they mean self defense. When police are in situations like the one noted above, they may only use deadly force when either their lives, or the lives of those around them, are in danger. Just pulling out a nightstick and hitting his head is considered deadly force, there is a fine line between self defense and murder.

[KansDem]

52. What the hell is "road rash?"

Was this person dragged around on the road, resulting in some kind of skin injury?

[eleonora]

63. when they tried to immobilize him

they probably tried to put his head on the ground with his arms in the back. The guy trashed and road burned his face. See this all the time on COPS

[FDRrocks]

64. When the cops are being "attacked" this often....

I think they are the fucking problem. Florida is crawling with PIGS right now.

[frustrated_lefty]

66. Not wanting to bash cops

They serve a useful and valuable service....sometimes. Some are just viscious brutes, and this administration provides a trickle-down effect. Those on top act as fascists, and we get assholes with a badge shooting people in the face with wooden bullets.

We now have a society which is in the process of rejecting any authority, for just cause. Another thanks to the criminal Bush administration.

FL

[7th_Sephiroth]

68. the cops here are horrible

i read the death notices in the paper and there are allways 1 or 2 cop related deaths in the paper

[Massachusetts]

76. Correctamoondo!

[sakabatou]

69. Another case against the TASER

And these cops can't just subdue him with martial arts (ie. wrist/arm locks, pins)?

[genieroze]

75. Maybe the Tasers are defective putting out too much voltage. eom

[Historic NY]

78. We always see the initial newspaper accounts but never the final

reports of the incident. The rash and blood red in the eyes can be the result of the Capstun or OC spray, it is an irritant. Its obvious that something else was going on here with this person, but that is omitted from the storyline. I've had experience on both ends of the pepper spray and Taser as part of my job and they are not pleasant. They were designed to enforce compliance and to be used as a less then lethal force. Granted there are a small percentage of people out there that can have reactions to both of these devices. Less than 1% of the population is not effected by pepper spray. The Taser acts only with a 2-5 second electrical charge that stops and must be re-initiated. It does not continue to shock and individual. Probably most of you don't even know that all the info on a particular strike on an individual is recorded and can be downloaded from the Taser.

This story is getting play just like the Ford Crown Victoria's that supposedly kept blowing up when hit from behind. The media had it so that it seemed like there were hundreds of injured or killed officers and thousands of incidents. According to the Center for Auto Safety there have been 13 fire-related deaths involving Crown Victoria Police Interceptors and 17 civilian deaths in the Mercury Grand Marquis and the Lincoln Town Car since 1993.

The end result is that eventually all the hype over the Taser's will subside once perception over fact is learned. W/o the use of these tools and removing less than lethal alternatives the police are now using, death would be the only method to stop an attack. That would be the compete opposite of what these items are being developed for. Yes there maybe some events where the Taser was used that need to be evaluated, but most police depts use strict guidelines or have defined policies concerning their use.

One death is too many, but condemning the Taser before all the facts are truly known is irresponsible too. I for one would like to know how many deaths have been prevented by the use of the Taser too.