History will judge Philippines -criticism of support for Bush war

[dArKeR]

Manila - Philippine President Gloria Arroyo's office sought on Sunday to deflect criticism of her support for the US-led Iraq war as a scandal over false claims about Baghdad's nuclear programme grew in Washington.

Presidential spokesperson Ignacio Bunye said Philippine officials were prepared to explain to the public its stand on the war, after one senator accused the government of supporting a war that appeared to have no basis.

"What happened in Iraq has already happened and our president decided based on what she had thought was correct," Bunye told local radio. "History will judge this decision."

http://www.news24.com/News24/World/Iraq/0,,2-10-1460_1386883,00.html


Let's not forgot President Estrada is still in jail and did NOT resign. Isn't that a coup which put Arroyo in power? There is no evidence against Estrada. But who needs evidence when you have the GOP on your side?

http://www.geocities.com/darkerxdarker/

[ClownKing]

1. No Evidence against Estrada?

I'm inclined to credit the GOP with a basket full of dirty and unsavory deeds, but framing Estrada is not one of them. Estrada is awaiting trial (which might progress if he didn't keep firing his attornies) for plunder and for receiving payments from gamblers. Estrada, as a former actor, loved the high life and wasn't too smart about his appetites. He got caught with his hands in the cookie jar, pure and simple.

[dArKeR]

2. Sorry to say there's no credible evidence. Do you know anything

about Asia? For one, if his office was receiving money, he probably didn't even know about it. He inhertted from Ramos. (Our Carlyle crook.)
http://www.hereinreality.com/carlyle.html

Even if you was taking some profits he was only taking 1% of what Marcos, Aquino, and Ramos had stolen. Therefore, Estrada was removed from office via a coup.



But even knowing how dirty they played it and framed Estrada, they still have the gall to demand that he must stay in jail without bail and made to account for his “sins,” which the Edsa II forces say he committed against the Constitution, and even judged him guilty, refusing to have his side heard.

These people who claim to have moral ascendancy don't even care about proving the innocence of an accused. They are willing to declare the accused guilty, just so they enjoy power and influence under a new dispensation.
http://www.tribune.net.ph/20020501/commentary/20020501.com_frontline.html

[ClownKing]

4. About Asia, not much. About the Philippines, more than most I imagine.

Posted by dArKeR
about Asia? For one, if his office was receiving money, he probably didn't even know about it. He inhertted from Ramos. (Our Carlyle crook.)

I'd like to preface my rebuttal by stating that I am not an expert on Philippine politics. Having traveled the Philippines on several occassions, lived there for a period, and having married a filipina... I take certain interest in the Philippine situation and make it a habit to keep up on the news there daily.

Maybe because I've been keeping up with the Estrada ouster since the beginning and am not relying on a few online summaries to bring me up to speed that my analysis is different then yours.

For one, if his office was receiving money, he probably didn't even know about it. He inhertted from Ramos.

"If?" "Probably!?" I think that's one hell of way for you to support your position. The portion of the trial that has already been allowed to proceed has already established Estrada's signature on at least one illegal bank account.

"....inherited from Ramos"
Just substitute "Clinton" for "Ramos" and you got one of the favorite Republican mantras.


Even if you was taking some profits he was only taking 1% of what Marcos, Aquino, and Ramos had stolen.

I was taught as a child that two wrongs don't make a right. Just because former Philippine presidents got away with graft, doesn't make Estrada any less guilty because he got caught stealing less.

Therefore, Estrada was removed from office via a coup.

At its core, EDSA II was a public uprising. Estrada was quite willing to ignore the opinion of a vast majority of the people. That is until the military finally sided with the ESDA II forces that Estrada was force to step down. GMA elected Vice-President and assumed the presidency in accordance with their constitution.


But even knowing how dirty they played it and framed Estrada, they still have the gall to demand that he must stay in jail without bail and made to account for his “sins,” which the Edsa II forces say he committed against the Constitution, and even judged him guilty, refusing to have his side heard.

Estrada is charged with plunder, which is a capital offense. Do you honestly belief that Estrada wouldn't be a flight risk via a one-way PAL ticket to Hawaii in a F. Marcos fashion? Don't you remember all those pleas for him to be able to leave the country for the USA for knee surgury that could easily performed locally in the Philippines.

Or worse yet. He is allowed out on bail, starts plotting with Ping Lacson, and orchestrates a "paid" EDSA III to storm the palance like he did when he was first imprisioned. Don't imagine he could get it as cheap this time. Might have to up the cash to 1000 pesos (< $20) per warm body.

And last time I checked, wasn't Estrada still in his hospital room? He hasn't been in ... what's the name... Camp Crane(?) for quite a while.

These people who claim to have moral ascendancy don't even care about proving the innocence of an accused. They are willing to declare the accused guilty, just so they enjoy power and influence under a new dispensation.

Proving innocence? Estrada is the one who has been stalling the trial. How many sets of lawyers has he been through.. five, six?

[DemBones DemBones]

8. Welcome to DU, ClownKing! It is good to hear from someone who

has been to the RP in recent years. I lived there years ago, when I was a child, and am always interested in what is going on in that beautiful land.

What is your opinion of GMA as president? She is pro-Bush* and fighting the NPA, I know, but is she good for the Filipino people?

Hope to see you posting more! :hi:

[dArKeR]

9. Now I know you know the Philippines then you must know that

bribery/pay-offs is the accepted way of doing business. It doesn't have to do with '2 wrongs don't make a right', which Grandma also taught me. It is (not fare) to compare a system of Gov. US with the Philippines. Inherit.

China, Taiwan, Korea, Japan, Philippines, Malaysia, Indonesia are run by money getting things done. The casinos in Maccau, Taiwan, Philippines have a normal account to pay-off the government. Just as the airport service contracts, ship refueling contracts... Whom ever become President controls that money.

In 2 Asian countries, I have first hand knowledge, that you might be the name on an account but any person in the world can deposit into your account withou even providing an id. There is no record of who deposited the money. It might seems strange to you or other if you haven't been in Asia but check it out, it's a fact.

If it was his sig it could have been rifled through a 100 things he signs per day. All they had to do was tell him he was opening an account for... anything.

Let's see an investigation of Marcos, Aquino, Ramos, Arroyo's bank accounts. Along with all the Senators.

He might have taken the money but this was 'normal' for his position. Just like the cops in NYC on the take. The fact is that they used it as a tool for a coup.

Remember, this is the place where children, 6-10 years old, are recruited by the mafia to stand and beg for money then the mafia comes and takes the money. And children, boys and girls, are allowed to become sex slaves to visiting white men. All under the watchful eyes of President Marcos, Aquino, Ramos and Arroyo and they in some way get a kick-back from this as it rises through the local police.

[dArKeR]

10. PS. Why hasn't Emelda Marcos been executed for plunder?

[dArKeR]

12. PSS. I've got qualifications too! I've been dumped by at least 4

Filipino girls in my time! LOL!

[dArKeR]

3. Are you one that also says Musharraf is the President of

Pakistan?

[ClownKing]

5. No, you must be mistaken again.

I have never made any such claim, verbal or otherwise. My reply to you was my first outside of the lobby. Not sure if my take on the Estrada situation is going to someone paint me as rightwing to others here, which would be funny because its so far from the truth.

Guess I picked a hell of topic and manner to de-lurk.

[jamesinca]

6. Clown King, I don't know anything about the Phillipines

But I will say this, I like the way you laid out your argument. Oh and by the way, welcome to the DU. Keep on posting. A good healthy debate is alwasy needed and appreciated.

[ClownKing]

7. Thanks for the encouragement

Thank you for the compliment.


I've been lurking on this site for well over a year now. I'm at a point now where I don't know how I could function without reading DU forums or alt.impeach.bush on Usenet.

[dArKeR]

11. Happy we got a topic to get you to post your expertise!

[Proud Liberal]

13. Re-de-lurking with my two cents

A bit about me:

Filipino gay man who lived in CA and NYC from 1998 to 2003. Currently back in the Philippines as a direct result of the Chimp's tax-cuts-for-the-rich-and-no-jobs-for-the-poor economy. Suffered through Election 2000 and 9-11, thankfully with a Democratic boss to commiserate with. Been lurking at DU since 2001 (starting from Jeffords' defection, effectively ending a self-imposed news embargo, which was my way of dealing with the mind-numbing shock and heart-wrenching hurt caused by the treasonous Dec. 12, 2001 SCOTUS decision), posted for a while, and gone back to lurking.

Until now.

(That makes two of us now, Clown King!)

dArKeR, your rather curious defense of Estrada left me no choice but to come out of the woodworks, and try and paint a clearer picture of what you have chosen to bring forth to DU for discussion.

I am not a fan of Arroyo, much less her sycophantic affinity to the Chimp. But the Philippine Supreme Court has ruled right after EDSA II that her ascent to the Presidency was legal, and swore her in thereafter. As we all remember from the Selection 2000, the Supreme Court pretty much has a final say on legal matters, whether we like what they have to say or not.

Now on the matter of Arroyo's support for the Chimp war, it's safe to say we both agree that it is ill-advised and downright deplorable, and indeed, she will be judged by history, I hope not in a revisionist way, but in a just and righteous manner.

Now, one other thing I noticed from your posts, it seems to me that you honestly and earnestly believe that Estrada was/is a victim of injustice, that he is getting the shorter end of the stick.

Now I will not even go to your politically incorrect (to say the least) generalizations about Asian countries (i.e., "bribery/pay-offs is the accepted way of doing business", as if Halliburton got all its government contracts fair and square?). But I will tell you this: I knew Estrada, Estrada was my president, and he Sir was no Ramos, nor Aquino, not even Marcos (who was at least intelligent, much like Nixon, but both were no less crooks of course).

Estrada is the Philippines' very own Chimpy.

He is stupid, incoherent, an unrepentant drunk, a chronic gambler, a maniacal womanizer, and UTTERLY UTTERLY INCOMPETENT. He is a college drop-out with only his mediocre acting stint as his only qualification when he entered politics and won as mayor, eventually becoming a valuable Marcos crony. Estrada, like Chimpy, was, and still is, arrogant and unapologetic, always ready with a taunt to his enemies and an empty macho rhetoric to rile up his illiterate supporters. Does this sound familiar?

(Google him, or search the archives of our leading newspaper www.inq7.net)

Now, I think it is to the credit of the Filipino people that they rose up to this collosal joke of a leader, right after his cohorts in the Senate, during his impeachment hearing, voted not to open an envelope containing damning evidence of his financial shenanigans. How glorious would it be to see a popular uprising against the Chimp on US soil (I had to qualify, since there were/are already plenty of popular uprisings against the Chimp on numerous countries all over the world)? Then again, let's be careful what we wish for, for we'd have Cheney ascend to the Presidency. I shudder.

So, Sir, or Ma'am, I don't know how much you know about Philippine politics, but pardon me for saying that you don't know much if you can point fingers at Aquino (who restored our democracy after 20 years of the Marcos dictatorship) and think at the same time that Estrada is squeaky clean (or deserves to be let go just because 'all presidents did this or that', which is in itself an irresponsible statement). Estrada is on trial right now, and I could only pray to Goddess that those in power right now finally get the political will and the moral maturity to do what South Korea did to its former presidents-cum-plunderers, put them in jail where they belong.

[philosophie_en_rose]

14. Thank you!

Arroyo is not perfect, but she's hardly as bad as Estrada. I really appreciate your post.

Welcome to DU.

[DemBones DemBones]

15. Welcome to DU, Proud Liberal! I look forward to hearing more

from you. We don't get much news of the Philippines here. I'd really like to know more about what's going with the government fighting the NPA and the MLF. I'd like to know if the Moros are allied with Al Qaeda or if most of them are just fighting the government and non-Muslims as they have for generations.

Aside from her support of Chimpy, is Arroyo good, bad, or insignificant in terms of what she does for the people?

[newyawker99]

16. Hi Clown King!!

Welcome to DU!! :toast: