Teachers refusing to grade papers in Berkeley

[proud2BlibKansan]

Teachers Refuse to Give Homework

2 hours, 2 minutes ago Strange News - AP

BERKELEY, Calif. - Berkeley students aren't getting written homework assignments because teachers are refusing to grade work on their own time after two years with no pay raise.

So far, a black history event had to be canceled and parents had to staff a middle-school science fair because teachers are sticking strictly to the hours they're contracted to work.

"Teachers do a lot with a little. All of a sudden, a lot of things that they do are just gone. It's demoralizing," said Rachel Baker, who has a son in kindergarten.

Teachers say they don't want to stop volunteering their time.

more . . .
http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/ap/20050301/ap_on_fe_st/no_homework

[maxrandb]

1. Shades of the Air Traffic Controllers

How long before Gropen-hater fires them?

I think that steroid pumped, shrivelled penis joke of a human being may have picked the wrong crowd to "terminate".

Nice to see the teachers having some backbone. Paying attention Democratic Party??? This is what real opposition looks like.

[proud2BlibKansan]

9. My thoughts exactly

"How long before Gropen-hater fires them?"

This is incredibly brave of these teachers. My hat's off to them.

[shanti]

19. the nurses and state employees

are next in line behind the teachers. the gropenater's f*cked with too many people and they WILL rise up!!

[AnneD]

167. he's already attacking nurses

and FYI, nurses do unpaid time also. Since when did standing up for patients and students qualify one to be a special interest group.

[HereSince1628]

129. A 2000 hour work year goes by fast when you put in 60 hours a week.

Anyone who is teaching and doing it right is going to have tremendous obligations during the school year.

The public thinks only of the classroom. This is a good strategy for the teachers. Spend your required hours in the classroom, and plan on having lots of study time for students, because you're gonna have plenty of lesson plans that will no longer be build at the kitchen table.

[fuwah]

172. working hours

Here Here! I was at work well into the evening several times this week.

[depakid]

181. Arnold CANT fire them- they're "working to rule"

It's just like what longshoremen do when they're in a labor dispute!

They just say- OK, contract and the rules and regs call for this, this and this- and so that's what they do!

Slows everything down, bigtime, but it's perfectly legal-

Same with the teachers- they're simply not putting in any volunteer time past what's called for on the contract. Good for them!

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

199. In Brazil we call this "Operation Standard" (Operação Padrão)

And the unions use it quite often.

[gottaB]

2. There's a novel idea for the Governor

Paid labor.

[Protagoras]

32. But he pulled himself up by his boot straps and now has

plenty of Money...why shouldn't everyone else just do the same? It's just their lazy, non-steroid using attitudes holding them back from having success just like him...er...right?

[MrPrax]

33. Ledenhosen Straps!?

Actually if you think about it, the Austrian Paperweight, got his career in an industry with strong union roots, good CBAs and strict pay schedules for it's members.

You'd think the guy would show a little respect for a process that put bratwurst on his table...

[Protagoras]

36. But that's THE underlying justification for all

the republican hyperbole isn't it? The Little Guy just isn't working hard enough or he'd be the BIG GUY, just like ARNY!

Well work and steroids of course...

[Catshrink]

87. Careful! Not all Bratwurst belongs on the table (or grill!)

My Bratwurst:

[RubyDuby in GA]

203. Your Bratwurst is beautiful!

Behold the original Rubyduby:

[lonestarnot]

3. Yep... this bad! Poor teachers poor kids and the raise doesn't even

begin to touch on what is going on inside schools. Political from the principal on down. Superintendents are in it to their ears.

[proud2BlibKansan]

10. If some of these superintendents would

work for less than they do, they would get a bit more respect from those of us in the trenches.

[fooj]

149. Amen to that!

[lonestarnot]

192. Not going to find that happening any time soon... n/t

[Squatch]

4. It's tragic that the people we rely on most, in society,

are the ones we pay the least. School teachers, firefighters, police officers, etc.

It's even more tragic that the people who rely very little on, like sports figures and celebrities, are paid the most.

[Theres-a]

22. AMEN!

[Ravenseye]

38. How Do You Figure?

Ok. Before I start, I just want to say that I generally agree that teachers are highly undervalued in our society...

I just don't know that we actually pay them the least. An average number of school days in public school in this country is around 180 for 7 hours a day. This works out to be 1260 hours a year. Lets say a teacher is making a salary of $40,000 a year. I know a number of teachers in their early 30's and most make a bit under or a bit over this number depending on their district, city, etc. Well that works out to $31.75 an hour. That's not too shabby. Of course as the point of this goes that doesn't take into account time worked in the evenings grading papers.

Thing is that I worked a job once for 60,000 a year. I got 2 weeks of vacation, so I worked 50 weeks, 250 days. It was salary so I was only really getting paid for the 8 hour day. 2000 hours a year worked out to 30 an hour. Less per hour than the teacher making 40k a year. Believe me though. I worked hard in that job (programming) and I'd estimate that I averaged about 60 hours a week. So figure that teachers also work that 60 hours a week, and not the supposed 35 or whatever....

I guess what I'm saying is should we figure the work they do versus the time they get out of it? Do we count the summers off as a benefit or a drawback?

It just seems more complicated to me than putting the argument in terms of 'hey we make x dollars per hour'.

[callous taoboy]

39. 7 hours a day, 1260 hours per annum? BWAA HAA HAA HAAA

Oh, excuse me while I wipe away the tears.

[Ravenseye]

48. That's why...

..I later say to figure teachers working 60 hours a week also instead of the 35 that would give. I agree that 7 hours a day is a laughable figure.

[wellst0nev0ter]

206. You're Right, I Say We Start Paying Teachers The Same As Babysitters

I mean, you can't tell the difference between babysitters and teachers, right?

So if the going rate is $2 per hour per kid, and average class size is 21 kids per class, and as you say teachers are in class only 1260 hours a year, that means they should be making. . . $53,000 a year.

Hmm, it appears that teachers are paid worst than babysitters. Never mind then.

[proud2BlibKansan]

210. The casinos where I live

charge 7.00 an hour per kid for babysitting. Let's go with that figure instead. :)

[knitter4democracy]

42. Your figures are off.

Disclaimer: I used to be a Catholic high school English teacher before kids.

First of all, there are required hours beyond what you're totalling. Teachers are required to chaperone dances, go to certain games, moderate at least one club or activity, go to many hours of extra training and meetings, and on top of it all, keep getting more training in their field. I'm not even counting the grading at home, the field trip prep, the massive prep-work (especially for elementary teachers--their work-load is insane!), or all the other extras that aren't paid for or specifically required but in actuality are required if you want to keep your job.

Secondly, summers are used to keep working on training or work a second job just to pay the bills. Ohio requires all teachers to show evidence of having started a Master's in your content field after five years of teaching (while you're still paying off your student loans--or, in the case of Catholic and private teachers, still have your loans in deferrment because you don't make enough to pay them). Teachers are using summers to meet those requirements and take several credits just to keep their jobs. I had to teach summer school just to pay the bills one summer, as the school decided not to pay us over the summer anymore.

When I was in college, in my teacher training classes, one thing they passed around was a figure that if each parent paid each teacher just three dollars an hour for each hour those teachers actually saw those kids and taught them, the average teacher would make over $75K a year. Babysitters here make more than that per kid.

[Ravenseye]

50. This is sort of what I'm getting at

What is an accurate represntation of the hours involved? They're playing the game like 'oh we get paid for 7 hours a day' but in reality it's different than that. Just like when I worked a 'full-time' job my hourly rate was figured at 8 hours a day, in reality I worked far more than that every day, and on weekends.

You can't compare a teachers job at 7 hours a day versus an 8 hour a day job like I had because both are working more hours.

As far as summers I know some teachers that work secondary jobs and others that just use it for vacation and travel. How should we take this into account?

[knitter4democracy]

55. It depends on their certification level, actually.

My mom was able to get permanent certification when Michigan still offered it. So, she only did class over the summers to get her Master's equivalency. I, on the other hand, and everyone who's just gotten out of college in the last ten years or so, can't even dream of permanent certification. So, summers are used by the younger teachers to stay up on their certification requirements.

That's why I think we should look at the value of the work overall and not break it down by hours. I had a lot more grading at home than my mom did, but her prep work was more (high school English for me, high school art for Mom). She also had more field trips and more trips to various art contests around the state than I did.

It's like comparing apples and oranges. Some people feel that the "Basics" teachers (math, English, science, sometimes history gets in the list) should get paid more, as we deal with the testing more directly. Others feel that all subjects are equally important or we wouldn't have them. Studies also show that foreign language study (even Latin), the arts, and really all of the "extras" classes have a positive impact on test scores.

Your pay is based on what is the going rate in your field. Teacher pay is as well, but they only look at other teachers' pay, not pay in the corresponding field. I would've gotten paid a lot more if I'd gone the business route and not the teaching route.

[fishwax]

56. They're not playing a "we get paid for 7 hours a day" game

They're playing a "we have been working without a contract for the last two years, we haven't had even a cost of living raise in that time, and now they want us to pay more out of pocket for health insurance without adding a dime to our paychecks, effectively cutting our pay" kind of game.

[Ravenseye]

70. Sure

but they're refusing to work outside of 'contracted' hours. Ie once they leave school at 330 they're done. They're playing the card that they work a certain number of hours a day. My point is that they're playing the game badly.

Teachers unions need to merge with garbage collectors untions. When one goes on strike they all go on strike.

How fast do you think a teachers strike would be settled if not only are the kids running around out of control at home, but doing so in piles of garbage.

Teachers need to start playing hardball.

[Thor_MN]

162. I don't take issue with any of your points but this.

"Teachers are required to... ..go to many hours of extra training and meetings, and on top of it all, keep getting more training in their field."

Teachers do not have any exclusive claims on this. Many professions require continuing education and training. If you don't keep current in almost any profession, you are soon plying backwaters for jobs because you have been bypassed.

I agree that teachers are undervalued, they get no points based on the arguement that they have to continue their education.

[smoogatz]

44. On average

You have to figure 2-3 hours of prep, including grading, lesson-plan, etc., for every hour in the classroom. If they're doing their jobs, public school teachers typically put in 70-80 hour weeks during the school year. Minimum, then, of 2520 hours, into $40k equals $15.87/hour. What do they pay managers at Wal Mart? Summers off are great, but teachers don't actually get paid for the summer months--lots of teachers work summer and holiday jobs to make ends meet. Many teachers also purchase class-room supplies out of pocket, because their districts are broke.

[fishwax]

53. Teachers also have to spend some summers in school

taking classes in order to keep their certifications current. And teachers have to go more than the 180 days that students go, usually by about 10 days minimum, and they have to be there more than the seven hours that students have to be there.

And that isn't even including all the extra time you mention for lesson planning, grading, conferencing with parents, not to mention administrative meetings, committee meetings, staff meetings, etc.

[Ravenseye]

54. Ok this is good

not what teachers get paid, but it's a good breakdown.

Firstly I just want to say that teachers should plain stop spending their own money on class-room supplies. They should make lists and have the students bring them in, or donate money. If the parents don't like it they can take it to the school board. I know thats a hard thing to do, but people are playing the teachers for suckers cause they know they'll keep doing it.

That break down of hours though is much better. I don't know if I necessarily see the 2-3 hours per hour of class though. All the teachers I know while they work most evenings grading and are very busy people during the school year, they still seem to have time to do other things.

Figuring 70 hours a week though still shows a fairly low hourly rate. Different breakdowns on hours still keep it around the 15 per hour mark of actual work.

[knitter4democracy]

58. Not paying for supplies?!

Hahahahahaha!

If the teachers don't, then the kids don't have them. Everyone wants the room to have nice bulletin boards and interesting learning centers, but no one wants to even pay for the paper, let alone the other stuff. I couldn't even get books on my shelves for Grammar and Free Reading Fridays and so had to take in my own books (several of which were stolen--oh, well, at least they were being read). Saying to just put our feet down and not spend the money actually can get us fired, as our reviews are also based on what our classroom looks like and the overall environment of the room. Not everyone has tenure, you know.

A stats class at my college did the numbers, and the most expensive major there was elementary education. Second was secondary education, and business was third. The business majors always tried to say that they spent more on their extra projects, but they had no idea what all those stickers, stamps, special papers, and all add up to.

[fishwax]

63. good point

it's especially difficult for new teachers who have to start out by shelling out all the money for a new room. My mother has been teaching in the same classroom for twenty years, so her out of pocket expenses aren't quite as outrageous, but she still spends plenty of money on it.

My wife, on the other hand, is in her second year of teaching and has had to spend four figures making two different classrooms presentable in the last two years. The PTA provides a small stipend, as does the school district, but the products are then the property of the school, so if she changes jobs she'll have to replace those anyway. She is fortunate because she gets a lot of support from her parents, who donate time and money that they probably don't have either. But her out of pocket expenses have been absurd, given the payscale.

[Ravenseye]

68. That's My Point

They're using you. They know they don't have to come up with the money because each and every one is scared of losing their jobs.

It's somethign everyone needs to do , or nobody can do it. I don't mean everyone in your school, or your district. But nationwide.

I've never talked to a teacher about this kind of thing that ever reacts in a way not sort of just resigned to what they have to do. If nobody does anything about it because they're afraid to go first and they think nobody will stand with them how do you ever expect to not pay for it?

[proud2BlibKansan]

113. But we can't teach without supplies

Kids can't read without books. They can't do work without pencils.

If we took this stand like you are recommending, we would be punishing ourselves. That's why we continue to spend our own money. In the long run, it makes our jobs easier.

[Ravenseye]

121. See I disagree

in the long run I think it makes your job harder. Wouldn't it be easier in the long and the short run if the school and the parents actually supplied the classroom? Or at least provided you with a budget to draw from?

It's ridiculous that teachers are expected to do this out of their salary. The schools get away with it because they figure the teachers have no options.

Nobody is going to blame a teacher for not spending their own mony to buy books. If a family is too poor to supply a child, the school should have supplies on hand. I know this doesn't happen, but it's not the teachers responsibilyt to use a significant portion of their already meager salary to do this.

In the short run it'd be more difficult because you'd have to get creative, and make people aware of the situation. In the long run if you had a 5k budget for your classroom every year....wouldn't that be easier?

[proud2BlibKansan]

128. 5K budget???

I have taught 25 years and I doubt I have been given a grand total of 5K to spend in my classroom in all that time. This year I got $100. Last Sat, I spent $58 at the local teacher's supply store, so you can imagine what little I was able to do with $100.

Sure it would be better if the school paid for everything we need, but the fact is, they don't. In the meantime, it's easier to teach WITH supplies than without them. And the kids need them, so we get them. That is how we usually make decisions - what is best for the kids, not how should this work in a fair minded society.

[Ravenseye]

132. Thats why you're underpaid

Sorry to be blunt but as long as teachers are willing to take out of their own pocket 'for the children' and work without contracts, and so on....you're gonna get railroaded.

I guarantee your school administration says 'why give them a budget, they'll spend their own money'.

Most people, even parents, don't realize you do this.

Teachers make me angry. Not saying you, just in general. They complain about how much they're paid, how they have to go out of pocket for supplies, etc, etc. I feel for them. But I've never once seen a teacher or their union adequately fight for it.

If every teacher in this country went on strike till they were adequately paid, adequately supplied for disadgantaged children, etc...how long would that strike take to resolve?

Instead they get themselves locked into one district, one county, one state unions, and they're paid so little, that the unions can't support a strike, so the teachers who have no savings vote to not strike (I"ve seen that a few times) because they wouldn't be able to pay rent a month later.

It's just aggrivating.

Teachers unions are just too weak.

[LostinVA]

135. Most teachers would be fired if they went on strike

Many, many teachers aren't protected by a real union, and don't necessarily get tenure. None of my friends that teach in Virginia or NC are protected by a union. If you don't like your job,m you can leave. A "right to work" state. I was a state employee in NC, and we had a "union," but we weren't allowed to bargain or go on strike. Same in VA.

[proud2BlibKansan]

141. But we are all about what is best for kids

Stirkes aren't best for our kids.

And in my state, I can be arrested and thrown in jail if I go on strike. Then I would possibly never teach again. Where would my kids be then?

I am not even sure I could join this work stoppage in Berkeley. My conscience says no. I greatly admire what these teachers are doing but I don't know if it will be worth the cost in the long run. And in the meantime, it is damaging the kids. We have got to put them first. That is the bottom line for every teacher I know.

[knitter4democracy]

145. A couple of problems

First of all, most states have something in the laws saying teachers can't go on strike (hence, the work stoppages and such--barely within the law but still in it). If they strike, they get fired. Enough districts have done this to make everyone nervous.

Secondly, the state laws also usually say something about exactly how many days the kids have to be in class. Even if the school ground to a halt and waited for the teachers to come back with a contract (which happened in the small town I lived in growing up once--which got the state law changed, btw), those kids would be in school forever. That also affects the other people who work for the schools--union and non-union.

Thirdly, the unions (AFT and NEA) are fairly strong but strongest in closed shop states. Closed shop states' teachers could possibly get away with that serious of a strike, but no one else could--and you're right that it should be a national, coordinated strike for best effect.

In the end, in Dansville, everyone turned against the teachers. The teachers got their contract, but they had hell to pay for years afterward. Forget any contract negotiations going their way even to this day (I had an aunt who taught there at the time), and forget any parents ever getting over it, either. Those teachers get no help of any kind anymore. They burned up everything on the strike, which went on too long, and now they are still building up their community capital.

[proud2BlibKansan]

160. My district went through two devastating strikes

in the 70s. Teachers were arrested and fired. All tenured teachers who participated in the strike lost their tenure. Non tenured teachers were fired. Some never got their jobs back.

They gained a lot, for themselves and the kids. But most of those teachers who were part of that strike said they would never again do anything like that - the cost was just too high.

The strike also devastated the local teachers union. It took years to build up membership and to restore its bank account to what it was pre-strike.

[knitter4democracy]

176. Sounds like Dansville without the arrests.

They cut a lot of teachers--now they were too expensive. :eyes:

The cost is too high for that severe of a strike. I think we'd be better served by getting the word out just how hard a job it is and just what is involved. I found it interesting that, in my freshman Ed. in American Society class, there were 40 students (and 12 in the other section)--the required weed-out class. Now, it's a small college, but there were another twenty or so in the spring class. So, that's around seventy kids in their freshman year saying they want to be teachers. By my senior year and student teaching, there were only about twenty-five of us (only seven in secondary ed). It's a tough job.

[bookman]

184. Unions

>>>Teachers unions are just too weak.

Some are, some are not so weak. It most cases the state laws are just awful. The unions do their best to lobby and change them, but as in anything in politics money talks. Teachers have a shortage of that.

I owe my current retirement and medical benifits to my Teacher's Association. They served me well.

This is not true in all places.

[proud2BlibKansan]

211. The teachers unions in this country

really screwed up when they voted against merging in 1998. Actually, NEA voted against the merger. AFT voted overwhelmingly for it (98% for vs 2% against). NEA's vote was more like 40% for and 60% against.

I quit the union right after that. I couldn't undertstand how sensible professionals could vote against forming the country's largest union.

Just think if we had merged - 3 million members nationwide!! I often wonder if we would be dealing with NCLB or any of this budget nonsense if we were in a strong union.

How could any teachers be that stupid? It will never make any sense to me.

[fooj]

151. We know that we are being used! We have a responsibility to our students

and that takes precedence over "being screwed"! At least it does for me.

[sandnsea]

182. Prep time

I would imagine it takes less time as a teacher gains experience and has a routine. But I easily spent 2-3 hours preparing for a one hour girl scout meeting. It's amazing how much time it takes to get one simple project together, especially if you want the girls to learn anything or you want a guest to come in, or something like that. Plus you have to consider the different girls and their abilities, personalities, etc. Teachers work hard. The truth is, public servants are paid through the tax dollars of the local community and they will never get paid what they're worth because that's not where the wealth is.

[callous taoboy]

60. Also, it's the nature of the job

(besides the long hours) that people don't take into account when they try to parse out our pay based on hours worked. Teaching early primary grades (my area) is exhausting work. The younger the class, the tougher it is. You have to constantly move, jabbering at a high rate of speed all the while. Pressure, pressure, pressure. The only job I've come close to experienceing the physical, mental fatigue was as a cook during peak supper hours. I am like the guy at the circus trying to keep all of the dinner plates spinning on the poles. If it weren't for summers off my goose would've been cooked long ago.

[knitter4democracy]

146. They told us in college that

only air traffic controllers have a more stressful job, if you define stress as number of important decisions needed to make per hour. It's true. It's a very stressful job. People ask me if I think I'll be able to handle the stress of running my own yarn shop. Shoot--if I could teach high school English, I think I can handle grumpy customers and getting the paperwork done on time. ;)

[hughee99]

73. 2-3 hours of prep per hour in the class???

Maybe for K-4 (which I'm not as familiar with), but not at many of the higher levels. Lesson plans can take quite a while. My former roommate was a 1st year high school history teacher when we moved in together, and, I will admit, he spent a considerable amount of time with the lesson plan... the 1st time he taught the class. After that, he used the same lesson plan every time he taught the course again, making only minor changes when minor changes in the curriculum were changed. Of his 7 1/2 hours each day, he was mandated at least 2 hours of prep time (and would get 3 hours on days when he didn't have lunch duty or study hall to cover). In the 3 years that I lived with him, I don't believe that he ever worked a 70 hour week, never mind having it "typical".

[smoogatz]

85. Sure...

If you teach straight from the textbook and never give an essay test or term paper, you can cut your prep/grading time considerably. Gym teachers probably don't prep much at all, except maybe to check and make sure the ol' tetherballs are fully inflated.

[jab105]

89. He shouldnt be satisfied with a 1st year lesson plan...

my first year, I taught straight from the book...and they "learned" the book, but I want near a good teacher...

I'm in my second year, now and I've used those lessons and expanded on them greatly, the kids this year are learning double what last years kids learned...they have already done 20 labs (whereas last yeears kids did 5 total...

No "good" teacher would be content teaching the same thing over and over...I already have a lot of ideas for what I'm going to do next year to further improve, and the next year the same I would imagine...

In my county, I'm a 2nd year with a masters degree, and I make under $30K...

I also have to take a 60 hour (WITH NO PAY) cuourse on my own time - every Thursday night for 4 hours for ESOL training...

Beginning teacher classes, so far we have had 5 which are 4 hours long, as well as a 2 day seminar on that...

This year, I have to take 11 hours of certification credit so that I can get a professional certificate, instead of temporary...along with testing every 5 years...I've already taken the first round of that...

Lab preparation is hard, grading stuff can take me all night, and if you are a glutton for punishment, you can have them do a 5 page essay, which is great fun to read through 150 of them...

Nonetheless, I absolutely adore my kids, they are really really wonderful...but to compare this job to the one that I had previous to this...this one is much harder...but also more rewarding in so many ways:)

[knitter4democracy]

147. He's not a usual case, to be honest.

All the history teachers I worked with put in massive hours of prep work and would've died before re-using a plan from the year before with only minor corrections. All of us in the English dept. kept getting moved around so much that we were teaching entirely new subjects every year and never had the luxury of teaching anything twice. I only got to when I changed schools--and the schools were so different that I would throw out over half of the plan, anyway.

He also must not have been grading any essays, which he should've been doing. God, I still remember the grading in my nightmares . . .

:scared:

[fooj]

152. Last year I had 164 essays to grade in June for spring semester grades!

I sware I was reading in my sleep!

[knitter4democracy]

155. I usually did grade in my sleep. *giggle!*

Seriously, though, it was worth it for the occasional gem of something really silly. :silly:

[fooj]

179. Exactly...or something extraordinary that moves you to tears!

Either way, I'm in for the long haul! Peace!

[proud2BlibKansan]

108. We do NOT get summers off!!

Most of us either work or go to school in the summer. The image of a teacher laying by the pool all summer living the life of Riley is bullshit.

[Ravenseye]

122. I know a number of teachers that do literally just that

My sister in fact teaches 6th grade and has a pool at her condo. She spends the summers basically laying beside the pool nearly every day.

Another set of my good friends are both teachers. They use their summer break to travel. Last year they went to Iceland, Ireland and Florida. The rest of the time they spent fixing up their house (painting etc).

Obviously it's not bullshit.

[proud2BlibKansan]

127. They must be rich teachers

I end up working every summer to pay bills. No laying around the pool for me.

[Ravenseye]

131. No not really

The couple, neither one makes 40. The one that literaly lays by the pool I think is over 40 now. maybe 45. Owns her own condo, travels alot during breaks etc. goes on at least 3-4 trips a year.

complains about money constantly too. wonder why.

[proud2BlibKansan]

139. Well I have been in this business for

25 years now and I honestly don't know any teachers like that.

[smoogatz]

5. Berkeley public schools, not UCB

Good for them. Public school teachers are among the most overworked and undervalued people in the work force.

[October]

15. Actually...not where I live

Our teachers are paid well.

$105K/year with summers off.

We have a tiny district -- huge parental support.

And our children are "worksheeted" to death.

I was once on the bandwagon of "teachers being underpaid and undervalued..." and I mean I was a cheerleader -- but my eyes have opened wide as my children have gone through the system.

The 3rd grade kids in our "affluent" district fared poorly on the state-wide exam last year, and there's no accountability. None. 40% were at or below "basic" in reading and math. My husband is a pilot, and he said "If I completed my job at only the 60% level...I don't make it home."

[northzax]

21. well, it sounds like you are in a spectacularly unique situation

105K for a public school teacher? I'll believe that when I see a link. Sorry, I have to call bullshit on that one. No district in the country pays teachers that much money. It would be unaffordable. I will take this back if you provide me with evidence. Just the name of the district, and I'll call my union and ask 'em.

Second off, I'll let you in on a little secret. Testing is crap. you know what the state wide exam tests? the ability to take a test. And you know the single greatest correlation factor with student achievment is? Parents.

If you were flying in your husband's plane, would you rather someone tested him on whether or not he could actually fly the plane, or given him a multiple choice test about airplanes? I'm going with the first, thanks.

[October]

26. I know it's unique

And testing may be crap...but unfortunately, it still counts. Most of us dislike it and agree with the teachers that we don't "want" to teach to the test, etc., but that didn't work for our 3rd graders.

My husband is tested every 6 months as a pilot...not pencil/paper tests or multiple choice -- testing on flying. Testing on handling emergencies.

[fishwax]

59. if they were "worksheeted to death" they probably were taught to the test

since that's what worksheets are often used for. Whether the teachers want to or not, they are sometimes forced to worksheet students in order to prepare them for the test. And it doesn't work. Perhaps you should take issue with the administration of your district rather than the teachers.

[October]

66. Thank you fishwax

In our district, the teachers differ from one class to the next. I'm just delving into this issue because of a friend of mine. She has triplets, and they have completely different levels of homework, expectations, assignments. It's brought this issue to the forefront.

They claim not to be teaching to the test, and at a recent public forum held firm to that -- despite the test scores. They did say they will start using test "language" which they felt would help the students in the future, etc. The parents DEMANDED this meeting, or it would not have taken place. This meeting was with the superintendant, curriculum coordinator, principals and counselors...no teachers were put on the spot or asked to be there, and none were there.

[sandnsea]

183. peep peep

"the teachers differ from one class to the next."

There's your problem. I've never seen a successful school with no consistency in what's being taught. The teachers won't like it, so that's all I'm going to say about it.

[October]

189. Thanks for that

Our middle and upper schools are very consistent and their scores were the highest in the state. You are right in that consistency is imperative.

Our lower school has a lot of political issues and firm entrenchment. Teachers are very happy -- I think because they've all been there a long time, and they seem to do their own thing. The principal doesn't seem to have a lot of their respect, and the last principal was fired after 1 year (teachers seriously disliked her).

[smoogatz]

24. $105k? Damn--where do I sign up?

That's more than twice what I make as a full-time college professor. Entry-level public school teachers in our area make around $32k and work 80-hour weeks during the school year. Most of them take summer jobs to make ends meet--so much for "summers off."

[booksenkatz]

25. Also: the "summers off" thing always sounds exciting, doesn't it?

People always throw in the "summers off" thing, like it's a great big whopping paid 3-month vacation. Nope. Not for my dad, who was a public school teacher. I remember how he scrambled frantically during those 3 months to provide for us. It's not always easy to find quickie summer work. He painted houses sometimes. He did anything he could get his hands on, no matter how demeaning, it must have been pretty scary. People always imagine teachers spending their summers beachside with pina coladas or something.

[October]

28. I have 2 relatives who teach

I love and respect them both.

One lives alone and works weekends and summers. The other doesn't. Two different worlds...different districts...different states.

[LostinVA]

31. People don't realize teachers don't get paid for the summer

Unless they ask for "year round checks." Even then, they are just paid for the school year, only their salary is spread over 12 months instead of 9. So, smaller paychecks.

I used to manage a big-box bookstore, and every summer and Christmas break we had several teachers who worked for us. IN ADDITION to working at least one other job teaching summer school, tutoring, etc.

[Conservativesux]

180. Thats what Unemployment insurance is for!

[LostinVA]

185. You can't get unemployment for that! n/t

[callous taoboy]

99. I teach summer school and bag groceries.

That is while I'm not in the Bahamas on my summer vacation.

[October]

144. Not all people

I never even implied pina coladas by the beach.

And teachers aren't the only professions whereby you have to work 2 jobs to support yourself and/or your family.

[LostinVA]

150. I think it IS the only true profession that does

Along with librarians -- I know many non-faculty librarians that work two jobs. Teaching is a profession, along with being a lawyer, doctor, clergy, and account. Some people also say librarianship is a profession. I'm using the literal meaning of the word "profession." Of these, who else has to work more than one job to make ends meet? I'm not slamming you, October. Not at all. I'm praising teachers. They are PROFESSIONALS who often have to bag groceries and work retail to make ends meet. That's honest work, but I sure don't see too many doctors or lawyers doing this. And, many doctors no longer have their own practice any more: they work for health service consortiums. So, they aren't self-employed (I had someone use that argument on me once,a nd wanted to defuse it!)

[October]

188. I understand

As I explained on another post, my one relative waitresses on weekends -- and she's an 8th grade English teacher. Her salary/benefits will rise (she's knew to her district)...but she's now used to the added income and she lives alone. She tells me she'll keep the 2nd job...she has friends there now, etc.

My husband is a pilot -- which is another profession in the true sense of the word. He worked 2 jobs for a long time. I realize in the newspapers you hear about high salaries for airline pilots, but they never START as airline pilots (and even their starting salaries are a lot lower). Anyway...my husband taught future pilots on his weekends off FOR YEARS. They are also required by law to stop flying at age 60, so that's another issue. (Legislation may soon change to raise that age.)

Doctors start with ridiculously low pay too -- but their hours are so hideous, they couldn't possibly hold 2 jobs.

I also know a lawyer who teaches music (piano) as a 2nd job.

For years, teachers were undervalued -- I've noticed that's changed. And that's a really good, positive change.

Thank you for your input and respect.

[countingbluecars]

27. Where do you live?

I work in an affluent school system in Northern VA, have a Masters Degree, am at the top of the pay scale, and I make nowhere near that amount. In fact, that is about what the superintendent of this large school system makes.

[LostinVA]

30. Could I ask where you live?

I have an aunt who's been teaching for 35 years, has a Ph.D., and lives in a northern district that pays VERY well, and she doesn't come close to what you're making. I'm NOT accusing you of making this up by any means, I'm just curious where you live. Thanks!

[countingbluecars]

34. Regarding salary

I live and teach in Loudoun County, VA. Your question made me check my facts. I did a google search and was surprised to see that our superintendent has received quite a raise since I last checked. Not that he doesn't deserve it. We are a rapidly growing school system with all of the accompanying problems. I, however, earn substantially less than the $105 mentioned in the post I was responding to.

[phylny]

41. Hey, I used to live in Loudoun and teach as well.

We still miss it. Terrific school system, my kids did well there.

[countingbluecars]

57. Hello! It's still a great school system,

but it's growing so fast I can't keep track of all the new schools!

[phylny]

61. I know! We just left in June

My kids would have gone to Freedom High School. We struggled with the community to get it built, then moved.

Ah well :)

[October]

37. Sorry for the delay

I'm not posting all that much because I'm enjoying a snow day with my family.

Without giving away the name of our TINY district, I will direct you to Bucks County, PA school districts.

In the meantime, I'll try to post a link to the salary info.

My 2 relatives are teachers. One teaches 8th grade English Literature in NJ, the other teaches 1st grade in PA. The 1st grade teacher has a Master's degree and earns more than the English teacher. The English teacher spent many years in a private school...so her pay is lower and she supplements by working a 2nd job.

I truly adore both of these relatives, and feel they are gifted -- and teach in very creative ways. I wish more than anything they could teach in our system.

I didn't mean to stir up a hornets' nest here. I do not begrudge teachers their salary, time off, etc. But when 40% of our 3rd graders (in a district that spends $18k a year on each student) cannot score better...it's time to discuss things and not make blanket statements.

[smoogatz]

51. Teacher training, public school mission

There are two essential problems with the way the public schools are run, IMO. First, teachers are trained in pedagogy at the expense of subject expertise--at our regional university I occasionally find myself trying to teach creative writing to English Ed seniors who can't write a complete sentence, and don't know what a verb is. But boy can they make an attractive bulletin-board display out of construction paper! It's a huge problem. Second, the public schools have been given such a broad mission that it's almost impossible to fulfill, especially now that every other kid is being labeled "learning disabled."

[October]

64. Fascinating.

There's been a definite rise in "learning disability" tags. If you have a child who doesn't fit "in the box," it's problematic for the system.

[northzax]

65. some info on Bucks County teachers

from the Philly Inquirer...Personnel costs are any district's largest expense. Centennial's top-tier teachers make $89,095, one of the highest rates in the region for experienced teachers. But Grossi said the teachers pay more toward their benefits than in most area school districts....A significant number of more experienced teachers have retired in recent years, Grossi said, and beginners make only $36,134.

http://www.philly.com/mld/inquirer/news/local/states/pennsylvania/counties/bucks_county/9541475.htm?1c

obviously, many people find 'only 36,134' to be laughably high, but when you look at things like real estate prices, it's really not.

I went looking for the most affluent district in Bucks for a comparison, (by affluent, I mean the one that pays the highest average salary to its teachers.) I found New Hope-Solebury, which pays an average of $61,790. a lot of money, I guess, but not 105K. although there are probably teachers with 30 years of experience and PhDs who make 100,000+, but not many. Here's Standard and Poor's analysis of the district (http://www.ses.standardandpoors.com/pdf/PA/New_Hope-Solebury_School_District_report.pdf) they love the performance by the way, they say it 'outperforms' other comparable districts.

for comparison, here's the S+P report on nearby Jenkintown. http://www.ses.standardandpoors.com/pdf/PA/Jenkintown_School_District_report.pdf

looks to me like you get what you pay for.

[October]

197. An update for you...

http://www.ses.standardandpoors.com/pdf/PA/Council_Rock_School_District_report.pdf

This is 3 years' old....and it's not from my school district...but one comparable and nearby. Salaries have increased since this listed "average."

They have a "step" system in their contracts around here, and good for them. I do not begrudge them good pay.

It's not the reality for most teachers. I totally "get" that, and have one relative who gets very highly paid...and another who does not (relatively new in her district).

[Goblinmonger]

202. Benefits

Does this number from Standard and Poors include benefits? Most high numbers usually do. This doesn't happen with other professions.

[October]

204. No, it's the salary

It's fairly well-known in Bucks County, PA that Council Rock is one of the best districts for pay. My cousin works there (she has her Master's) and she drives a Jag. She has a nice lifestyle. I'm thrilled for her! And I'd pay DOUBLE to our teachers in our district if they were half as creative, inspiring and energetic!

Our district has similar pay to Council Rock's (maybe more now with this new contract), and well, it's dullsville. Every homework, test, class work, etc., are worksheets. Even holiday "projects" are torn out of a workbook, put a brad in the center...and you're done type stuff.

Maybe we're in a rut, I don't know. I have nothing against teachers and big pay -- more power to them and their unions -- but we're not getting much. We have incredible parental support, nice wages, volunteerism to die for, resources abound...and the kids are BORED out of their minds.

This is 2nd grade. Every Friday, the spelling test comes home stapled to the week's work. You could not tell one week from the next if I laid them all out. It never varies. Never. I could cry it's so dull.

We've introduced a lot of music (instruments) in my child's life to balance his 7 hours a day of monotony. It helps.

Anyway, I've now made this personal, and that was not my intent.

Thanks for your input...and everyone's. I just wanted to make a point. I realize most teachers are underpaid and undervalued. Our teachers are not in that situation, but they are indeed uninspired.

[msongs]

43. WHERE do you live? I would like to verify your claim................

so you just tell us the town and state and the name of the district and we can check the public records. What you claim is just about twice what we make around my area. so thanks for helping :-)

Msongs
www.msongs.com/political-shirts.htm

[bmbmd]

45. Starting salary in Texas

about 24,500. Teachers get an annual raise of 800 dollars per year of experience. $1000 extra for a masters. So, a masters degree teacher with 97 years of experience should bring home about $105000. Your figures add up perfectly.

[October]

69. Well, this isn't Texas

Our wages in general sound high to many in the U.S., but our expenses are very high around here with our proximity to NYC and Philadelphia.

The Standard and Poors page I found was 3 years old...and still we were at 68K or so. Our school board has not yet posted these new salary figures -- they are never up-to-date with their minutes. I'll get them somehow.

I don't begrudge the teachers their salary, benefits, etc. I was just adding another perspective to the discussion. And despite all the comments and sarcasm, I'm really just trying to report the situation in our area.

I supported and argued for my cousin when she went on strike in her district. Hers is the highest paid (perhaps in the state) - Council Rock is its name. If our teachers were anything like her, I'd show up at the Board meeting asking them for more pay to teachers. We just have very tenured, very tired, very uncreative teachers in our lower school. It's quite appalling.

[callous taoboy]

97. $200 salary increases per annum here. No better way

to say, "We don't value you, so why don't you just move away."

[LostinVA]

136. Ha! Join the club

I'm a lowly paid academic librarian, and we just got our first "real" raise in several years: 3%, and $50 for every year you've been working for the state... hahahhaah! AND, that extra $50 per annum is taxed as a bonus, so we'll only get half of it. Hmmm.... how SHALL I spend my $125?

[Career Prole]

143. LOL! I had that teacher!

Oh, the lavender smell was overwhelming! :7

[Mizmoon]

75. My district pays very well too

$60,000/year to start, plus mega benefits, pension, etc.

It's not a bad job at all. I know their turnover is low.

EDITED TO ADD: That doesn't mean that these people don't deserve a good contract. I can understand their anger.

[countingbluecars]

76. I must ask.

Where do teachers get $60,000/year to start? What state? What mega benefits do they receive?

[Mizmoon]

79. Long Island

We have districts so rich that the administration can steal millions and no one notices for years:

http://newyorkmetro.com/nymetro/urban/features/9908/

[countingbluecars]

83. Oh my!

I'll bet regular auditing takes place now.

[jab105]

91. Oh my gosh. $105K...

no accountability...whats that?

Haa, I'll give you an FCAT for that one...we had ours today and yesterday...

[proud2BlibKansan]

115. Where in the world do you live?

$105K a year???

I am moving!!

[fooj]

153. Where do you live? Hell- I'm moving...

:bounce: :bounce: :bounce:

[October]

190. LOL

I tried to convince my aunt to apply up here -- but she said "No way do I even have a shot." She's been teaching for 30 years or more, and it's a tough district to get into. She's a genius in my book -- I so admire her creative teaching style. The kids love her. Few slots open in our district, as you can imagine, so she was right...fabulous as she is, they are probably going to hire a "younger" person.

Look up Bucks County, PA schools. Current Standard and Poors do no reflect our new salaries -- and the new contract. Not every teacher will make $105K, of course. They use a "step" system here. But we have a lot of teachers (more thatn 60-65%) who have advanced degrees in our district, and they've been here for decades.

[fshrink]

6. Who needs education anyways?

Just need a few skills to fill the pockets of the bosses, a swift right hand to handle the clicker and a neighborhood church for the rest.

[maxrandb]

11. Bill Gates Gets It

The Corporate Right-Wing Conservatives are so short-sighted.

I'd like to see Microsoft survive without a well educated workforce.

Hell, I'd like to see McDonald's or Wal-mart survive without an educated workforce.

We've allowed them to define (once again) public education by the lowest common denominator. The real argument ought to be the tremendous economic impact of a well educated workforce.

We'll be told by the corporate media that this is the "liberal teachers union" fault. We'll be told that if we just "privatized" education it would be so "wonderful". We'll be told that "those evil teachers" weren't doing a good job anyway, and they will sight some extreme example of a professor sympathizing with terrorist....Then the argument won't be about how little we pay our teachers, the argument will be about the "terrible" state of our "communist" public schools.

Anyone want to bet against me???

Say it again folks: "Defining Democracy Down".

[demnan]

7. It's a shame that we take teachers' devotion so for granted

A teacher has to not only grade papers but make lesson plans and is expected to participate in a lot of activities. Most teachers do so without complaint, despite their lower wages.

I hope these teachers get the raise they seek and more. If the parents want to do something positive they should insist on it.

[GOPBasher]

8. School districts all around the country are strapped now.

State have no money, which means schools have no money. This is the *REAL* "trickle-down" effect.

[proud2BlibKansan]

12. And NCLB just makes it all worse

We were strapped for money before this inane law, but now it is ten times worse.

[chrisbur]

17. Exactly!

And might I add that my wife is a teacher and I am constantly confounded by the amount of work she does. It never ends even if it's comfortable, low intensity work. Like spreading out her work on our bed while watching T.V. or manning the telephone at night to organize extracurricular events.
She earned a master's degree by going to school at night when we were in our twenties. We already had two kids and I worked all day then we had a fleeting moment together before she left for school and then I cared for two toddlers all night. She has been teaching 9 years and is paid $46,000 with full benefits. We are not complaining. You should hear some of the parents on the Board of Ed. though. You would think we were robbing them blind.
We both put a huge amount of time and resources into that school.

[GOPBasher]

23. I can't stand that.

I'm a teacher, and I know exactly what you mean about people in the community. It's such bullshit. They have no idea.

[knitter4democracy]

47. I used to say to my students who complained

"Only three of you are paying my salary, so the rest of you are getting all this for free. Figure out who those three are, and I'll just teach them." That usually shut up the whiners. ;)

Being a Catholic high school teacher, that's all I was paid--I did a happy dance when I broke twenty grand gross a year. Parents honestly thought we were paid more and were always shocked when I told them what I was paid. I think part of the problem is that public schools always publish the average salary--not the starting salary or the breakdown of average years of experience per pay level. They're in for a shock when all those teachers retire and no one's there to fill the jobs.

[GOPBasher]

49. Yep. I'm in a Catholic school right now, making $24,000 gross, which

comes out to much less than $20,000 after paying for my health care and taxes.

[knitter4democracy]

52. Check your health care plan, too.

Ours stated quite clearly that they wouldn't pay for anything, even an emergency procedure, that compromised our fertility. So, if I went in for a laparoscopy for my endometriosis and they found cancer on my ovaries or sliced the wrong artery and had to take out my ovaries or uterus or both, they wouldn't pay a dime. Needless to say, I didn't get the surgery . . . :eyes:

I loved teaching the kids, I just hated the principals I worked under, one of whom was freakin' crazy. I still miss the kids.

[GOPBasher]

62. That's downright scary. I'm sorry!

I'll have to check our health plan.

[knitter4democracy]

142. It was in all of ours--independent and diocesan.

Read the fine print. It's in there somewhere, probably. Everyone was shocked at lunch the next day when I brought it up. Apparently no one had seen it before. My problem with it was that my disease already impacted my fertility, and if a surgery to correct that accidentally took away my fertility, why wouldn't they pay for it? There wasn't even anything saying that it would pay if it was cancer. Nope. Rather have ya dead, I guess.

[trogdor]

114. Conscience clauses suck.

Goddam Repig governors pushing that shit.

[havocmom]

13. Good for them! Professionals charged with educating our kids should not

be treated like they are. Most do about a third of their work (papers & lesson plans, seeking resources to help kids having problems) off the clock, yet they get demonized for "three months off" even though they do not get paid for those 3 months off.

Top that off with a high percentage of students who have not been parented well and not been taught that the world does not revolve around them. Teachers have a terrible time trying to deal with kids who won't behave, make life hell for cooperative kids and too many parents will not address reality. They just don't want their kids 'persecuted' and go whining off to administrators and school boards. Those entities too often cave and fail to back the teachers who are in the trenches daily.

[displacedtexan]

18. Teachers are "Seasonal Workers."

The myth of 3 months off needs to be addressed once and for all. Teachers in some public school districts can choose to be paid either 10 months or 12 months. (Those were the only 2 pay options I ever had while teaching.)

You're so right about the "off the clock" hours! Most teachers work the equivalent of 3 jobs:

#1. in class (lecturing, facilitation, discipline, and now TEST PREP, etc.);

2. preparation for classes (planning, grading, scholarly research & professional skills upgrading, and that all-time favorite-- supervision of lunchrooms, bathrooms, hallways, study halls, & recess);

3. and "volunteering' (personal counseling, class sponsorship, classroom housekeeping, school committee work, record keeping & report generation).

The parent quoted in the original post obviously has no idea what a teacher is expected to do.

[AnnInLa]

20. And, during the summer

we have to take college classes (continuing education is a requirement to keep our jobs) and/or attend seminars, meetings, etc.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

29. Good point!

In many districts (and even in some colleges) teachers are not paid during the summer. They either have to save about 1/4 of their after-tax school year salaries (above and beyond what they might be saving or investing for retirement or other purposes) or find another job for the summer.

[bmbmd]

96. I don't know about that. My wife says there are three reasons

for teaching-June, July, and August!

[jmcgowanjm]

14. Thank you proud2Blib. Great article

refusing to grade work on their own time.

I've never been a fan of homework. I
thought it was a drill to get the student
ready for takehome work in the bidness
world (another subsidy to corps.).

[MountainLaurel]

16. Good for them

I know so many teachers who are at the school 12 hours a day. They have to arrive an hour early for monitoring the cafeteria for breakfast and watching the buses come in. They stay late to grade papers, write lesson plans, meet with parents, develop IEPs, orchestra rehearsals, club meetings, and sometimes just waiting with students whose parents forgot to pick them up.

[alwynsw]

35. Something to remember

Many, actually most teachers we know, spend their own money for classroom aids and such. I've never seen a teacher who wouldn't dig into his or her own pocket if a kid truly needed lunch money. I know that my wife did these things before she retired from the classroom.

As an added bonus, public school teachers work under such draconian rules that most of us would run away from the job as quickly as possible.

Add that to the fact that you get all the kids in public schools. I mean all the kids - including mentally, emotionally, and physically challenged, the bright ones, the not-so-bright ones, and the just plain ornery ones - and all the parents, ranging from micromanagers to complete apothetics, and are expected by NCLB and, at least here, KERA, to produce a homogenous, equally well-educated groups of people.

Aw, hell. I'm ranting.

[callous taoboy]

40. At least they are unified on this-

In my state we teachers are a cowardly lot. We are afraid to make waves or talk union action. I work 10 to 11 hours per day, plus at least 4 to 5 hours each Sunday. I am getting more creative in how I use the time at school.

[msongs]

46. Arnold has a new radio ad - says the teachers are LIARS !

yep, it features a woman claiming to be a teacher, and the dialog flat out says the teachers are LIARS, and that is the word the ad uses.

now how george w bush republican is that?

Msongs
www.msongs.com/political-shirts.htm

[Name removed]

67. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[callous taoboy]

71. Sorry, but I agree 100% with the CA teachers-

We've been doormats long enough, and until teachers stand up against this abuse it will continue to get worse.

We had a republican legislator in this state who was bad-mouthing teachers and obstructing any progressive movement to help our lot. He was asked to take over the duties of a teacher for a month to see what we are faced with. He changed his tune quickly after his month was up.

[Name removed]

Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Gloria]

80. The young have to want to be "imparted to"---

From my experience, you can do everything possible to teach, every style,every method but your success as a teacher is still DEPENDENT on whether JR. decides he/she wants to learn. That's why "merit based" promotion/pay is a joke.

And a lot of kids don't care, are too lazy, have parents who don't care, or who are so involved in extracurricular activities and the "media" world that they won't learn as much as they should. Learning becomes a low priority item.

Frankly, if schools ditched most of the extracurricular crap that requires kids to go selling door to door and made school a real JOB rather than a potpourri of distractions, kids might start getting a better attitude about really enjoying learning.

[Shakespeare]

84. Except that your extrapolations are all wrong.

This is a wage and hour issue, and pretty cut and dried. For those of you not following this, it's one of the most rapidly developing areas of law right now, especially in California.

If you adjust their salary down to reflect all the overtime hours they're working but not being paid for--and when you do that, you have to think about things like time and a half and double time--then you begin to see just how grossly undercompensated teachers really are.

They are 100 percent right to fight for this, and they have my complete support.

[callous taoboy]

95. Excellent post, Shakespeare.

The overtime issue is a biggie. I figure I have lost tens of thousands of hard-earned dollars (interest being taken into account)by not being paid for all of the hours I put in off the clock.

[callous taoboy]

90. So you should teach-

I mean you make it sound like we are living the life of Riley.

[bmbmd]

106. It is the job of the union to protect its members

and to insure fair pay for fair work. These teachers are sending a message, a shot fired across the bow, if you will. The "impartation" of knowledge continues, the classes are held, and the learning continues. The state is warned that two years without a cola is unacceptable, and further warned the budget is not to be balanced on the backs of schoolteachers and children.

[proud2BlibKansan]

124. Well you couldn't count that two cents

if a teacher hadn't taught you how.

Read this entire thread. Several of us have explained that we work a lot more than only nine months a year. And for the umpteenth time, we DO NOT get summers off.

As for my salary, I have as much education as my cousin who is a doctor. And her yearly malpractice premium is higher than my yearly salary. I have been in the workforce 10 years longer than she has. But she earns 3 - 4 times what I do. How is that fair?

[One_of_8]

130. Just my 2 cents

I did some internet searches to find you how underpaid Berkely teachers are and was surprised to find that the avg pay seems to be about $45,000 dollars for 9 months of work, so if you extrapolate that to a year thats $60,000 dollars.

1. In other posts, it has been discussed that almost every teacher works more than 9 months per year. Most school years end in mid-June, and start at the end of August. That works out to 8 or 9 weeks, or roughly 2 1/2 months off for the summer. Other school districts have converted to a year-round school year, with three longer breaks scattered throughout the year. My sister teaches in Ventura County and generally works at least two weeks during every break, so in effect she takes perhaps 6 weeks off per year.

2. Assuming that the $45,000/year figure you mention is accurate for Berkeley teachers, I disagree with your extrapolation. That does not equate into $60K per year, it equates to $45K per year. I work in Sonoma County as a legal secretary and I make just over $40K per year. I don't have to take my work home, my employer pays for all supplies that are required for the office, and if I have to work overtime (fortunately for me, a rare occurrence), I get paid time and a half. With bonuses and some overtime, I made nearly $45K myself last year. And I can tell you, even though that amount might sound pretty good, I still scrimped along each month. As a single parent of one child, all of the money I earned went to paying the mortgage on our modest home, car payment, insurance, credit card debt, phone, utilities, groceries, health insurance, after school care costs, clothing, and the like.

3. I think that every once in a while, parents and the general public need to be reminded of how much teachers actually do. I fully support these teachers' decision to cease offering their services after hours for free, without a contract. Don't place the blame on teachers, because most of them do this job not for the money or the supposed 3-month vacation each year, but because they believe in the importance of what they do, the value of what they can impart to the children. Blame the governement, who believes it is more important to funnel billions of dollars into Halliburton's coffers. Blame California's governor for treating teachers with disrespect (may it come back to bite him in the ass).

[lazarus]

137. Why extrapolate?

If I make $10 an hour, that doesn't extrapolate out to $87,600/year, because I'm not working 24/7.

Similarly, teachers don't work during the summer. So don't extrapolate. They make what they make, and if they're lucky, and have the time, they can maybe pick up a summer job of some form.

Also, California has the second highest cost of living in the nation. And Berkeley is among the most expensive places to live in California. So that $45k doesn't do much good at all. It is damned near a pauper's wage, when you face housing costs, etc.

[DrZeeLit]

140. Do you have any idea of the cost of living in SF area?

"Real world?"
Get off your high horse. You wouldn't last two minutes in my world. Junior high English for 20 years, supplemented by teaching evening classes at a college while I worked through a Masters and then a Doctorate. Oh, but that doesn't equal somebody's MBA, huh?

Try being the only adult in a room of 32 eight graders. We haven't even touched on discipline here... we're just talking TIME.

Remember... this PROFESSION is about much more than time. But you brought it to the floor.

First of all NOBODY works a 9 month job. Nobody gets out of school on June 1st and goes back on Sept 1.... Try June 15 or later, with a return for teachers in the last week of August. In addition, many districts are on Year Round School.

Secondly, forget about 75 hours a week. Try more 12 hours a day -- and that's light. I'll give you my last schedule teaching English in middle school. Into school at least one hour early. When assigned early morning "duty" station, into school 1.5 hours early. Six classes with 32 kids in each class. Plus a homeroom with 32. That's six classes at 55 minutes each, plus one at 20 minutes. I had four completely different preparations -- advanced English grades 7 and 8, and standard English, grade 7 and 8. And NO they were not the same classes (so you can add 4-8 hours a week in prep outside school). NO BREAKS...until lunch, which was half an hour. NO prep time during the day -- doing my own typing, copying, and filing BEFORE SCHOOL and AFTER -- attending mandatory meetings at least 3 times a week after school. Parent conferences, department meetings, faculty meetings.

Now let's add the number of papers to grade, shall we? 6 x 32 = 192 students, writing at least 1-2 pages a week (I assigned more, because I believe that actually WRITING, rather than doing worksheets or answering BS question from a book is a better way to go) That's 190 + 95 = 285 pages of work to read. Now, how much time should be spent on each paper? 2 minutes? 5 minutes? 7 minutes? Let's see... that's 570 minutes (9.5 hours), or 1425 minutes (23.75 hours) or 1995 minutes (33.25 hours) PER WEEK. This does not include correcting tests, which NO the students CANNOT correct (for a couple of reasons -- a. Students are not good at this, and b. the law restricts allowing students to see other students grades)

This also doesn't include editing drafts, reading and grading research reports, or other projects.

So, the REAL WORLD? One more question, why is it that teachers are supposed to be altruistic, do-gooders, who WANT to sacrifice, who actually are supposed to realize going into this profession that they are not valued? Why are teachers supposed to "do it for the good of society"? Why are teachers not supposed to be in it for the money?

Do we ask these questions about doctors?
Oh, they are not in it for the money, are they?
They are in it to help people. Riiiiiight.
Secondly, I've always wanted to ask, why do teachers have to

[knitter4democracy]

154. Thank you!

You are totally right. Teachers do many, many hours of extra work that is required but not requited. (Thank an English teacher if you know the difference.) Teachers are also required to constantly be back in the classroom as students in order to keep certification up to date--which isn't paid for, either.

I worked as a clerical temp in college, and all but one place offered to hire me. I refused them all, since I wanted to teach more than anything. You think I couldn't handle the business world just because I was a teacher? You really are crazy. I think it's the other way around: I don't know a single business person who could handle teaching for one week, let alone for a whole year.

My MIL has an MBA, and she taught at her daughters' private school for two years (she was looking for a break and also wanted the tuition break). She had me come teach her sixth grade language arts classes for a day, and actually cried all the way home. Those kids didn't know what poetry was. She'd rammed into their heads with a million worksheets sentence and paragraph structure (it was in the textbook, which was *all* she needed--yeah, right), but she hadn't taught them how to read or write. You should've heard the sighs in each class when I put a poem up on the overhead projector (I was covering metaphor and simile that day)--it was like they'd been parched for water. It brought tears to my eyes and still does all these years later. Those poor kids. She would call and complain about how the kids weren't writing their assignments down in their planners, but when I asked about their writing, she always said that it was fine.

You should've seen the essay her daughter wrote for a junior year English class. Crap. MIL sent it to me so I could call the teacher and tell her to change the grade to an "A." I had to tell her that she was lucky it was a "B" because in my classes, that essay would've gotten a zero until it was re-written. I found out later that she was so angry about the grade because she'd written most of it. :eyes:

[ulysses]

161. what ZeeLit said.

:thumbsup:

[fooj]

157. The 45,000 dollars can be paid out in 10 months or 12 months.

NO 60,000 paycheck! "75 hours a week in jobs that require performance"? What's your point?

[countingbluecars]

72. Respect

Just a little bit.

[fishwax]

74. I'm sorry, but you're the one off track and off base

I'm not sure where the "test scores reveal that the 'chirun' aren't being very well educated" in your first paragraph comes from, since the article doesn't mention anything about that.

You say "in response to union difficulties solely based on pay," which is inaccurate. Pay is the only thing mentioned in that article, but there are other issues at stake as well, as there always are when teachers negotiate contracts. Without fail, teachers argue for conditions designed for student benefit, such as smaller class sizes, which is also at issue in this dispute, according to a more complete article found here: http://sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?file=/c/a/2005/02/28/SCHOOLHOURS.TMP.

Whenever teachers renegotiate their contracts, they do concern themselves with student welfare, but they never get credit for that. Instead, people insinuate that it's just money, "which is let's face it is inconseqential in the scheme of actually teaching kids," as if teachers should just be happy with whatever pay they get b/c, after all, that's madmoms want for their kids. If money is inconsequential when it comes to teaching kids, then the public should gladly pony up the dough that it takes to hire and retain teachers.

Why are you so quick to attack the teachers, implying that they don't spend any time teaching their students grammar, etc.? Where do you get that assumption from? The whole point of the article is that, for the last two years WITHOUT THE BENEFIT OF A CONTRACT they have been putting in tons of hours of their own time for the benefit of kids. Once they stop putting in that extra time, it became obvious to the parents how valuable that extra time was for their kid.

[Name removed]

78. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[fishwax]

82. Because their costs are increasing

and their pay is not. They don't even get cost of living increases. Now the state no longer wants to pay into their retirement fund and the district wants them to pay a larger share of their health care costs. The net result is the teachers lose money.

If the kids are actually being hurt, they are being hurt as a result of the extra-hours work that teachers are not currently doing. You've chosen to quite decisively blame the teachers for not continuing to go above and beyond the call of duty despite getting the shaft from the district and the state. I choose to blame the public for not adequately funding education to the point where teachers feel they can no longer continue to put in the long hours they do without getting something in return.

I am trying to step outside the typical political stances here, sorry if it rubs you the wrong way , that is not my intent.

No need to apologize, we're just having a spirited discussion. But if you are trying to step outside the typical political stances, I respectfully submit that you succeeded only in stepping outside the typical democratic political stance. I think you stepped right into the typical republican political stance, which tends to attack teachers (as you did) and deny that they need to be paid more (as you did).

[fooj]

158. Typical mindset of an individual who has never spent a day in the life...

[Gloria]

77. When I was teaching, if you got a stipend for the extracurricular stuff,

the pay averaged out to about 50 cents an hour.

I'm totally on these teachers' side....The hours I spent home working on stuff was incredible. I remember being really sick at home with bronchitis, hardly able to breathe, yet still working on "display" materials, when I should have been in bed resting.

When things are cut, people notice. Other than that, all the extras are taken for granted.

[barb162]

81. the story doesn't say what the average salary is in this district

In my district it is probably about 70-90,000 because most of the teachershave master's degrees. In my opinion, pretty good money for 9 months work a year.

[phylny]

88. I had a Master's degree in Virginia

and my pay started out as $36K a year. The work was never-ending.

[Name removed]

92. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[phylny]

101. Well, in my profession, I simply don't have a choice.

I HAVE to have a Master's and certification to practice, and it WASN'T in education. I have a Masters of Health Sciences in Communication Disorders. However, my profession is only low-paying in the public schools. Elsewhere, this has not been a problem.

I was merely illustrating that the person's perception of what salary would be with a Master's degree was mistaken.

[jab105]

174. Hi there...I have a Masters degree in Materials Engineering...

and I teach high school science...you wanta talk about it? start there...

I teach becaue I think its the most important job in the world, and I love the kids...normally, I would have a starting salary of $60K...right now, I make under $30K...

Ummm...yea...welcome to DU...you know, umm, democratic underground...

[barb162]

93. Every teacher I know starts out at fairly low pay. But then it

seems to quickly rise. There was a story a few months ago of some phys ed teachers who taught drivers ed in Chicago and the suburbs who were pulling in 140,000/yr.

The experienced teachers in my district with Masters' are pulling a LOT in plus they have great insurance and pension plans.

When I started out in industry with an MBA I started at less than 36,000 and I had 2 weeks vacation, not 3 months vacation. I don't know of any other job in industry or government where the employees get 3 months off a year.

[callous taoboy]

98. So go teach, Barb. It's such a breeze.

:eyes:

[barb162]

105. I don't think so. Being around kids is not my thing. But for those

people who do like being around kids, I think teaching is a great and well-paid profession (in my area of the country).

[callous taoboy]

100. One more thing, Barb-

Be careful with blanket assumptions about teacher pay and benefits. There is huge disparity across the country.

[barb162]

103. I didn't say there wasn't a disparity across the country. But in MY

area, I don't know anyone who is shedding tears over teacher salaries and benefits. I don't have blanket assumptions

[phylny]

104. Also, the blanket assumptions about

having three months off a year. When I worked in public schools, I'd always provide summer speech and language services in the district to augment my salary.

[barb162]

107. I know several teachers with summer homes and they just stay

at the summer homes for 3 months.

[callous taoboy]

109. And their husbands (or wives) do what for a living? n/t

[barb162]

116. well one isn't married, and the others have spouses who are

homemakers so they just go up north to their properties for the summer

[countingbluecars]

111. Good for them!

I think it's great those teachers have summer homes. Most likely there's a nice second income in the family. By the way, my teaching year starts mid-August and ends mid-June. That's not three months vacation.

[barb162]

118. 2+ months? How about at Christmas and spring break? When a

person in industry gets off at Christmas time, like that week between Christmas and New Years when all the schools are closed, we take that as vacation time. If one really looks at the number of days a teacher is working, in the classroom, and a person in industry in a factory, office, etc., you will see weeks and weeks of difference.

[countingbluecars]

120. How about it?

There are plenty of people who get time off for holidays. My husband run a small auto repair business. He closes for most holidays, also a week at Christmas, plus his employees get another two weeks vacation during the year. I'll bet this isn't all that unusual. Also many people work 9-5 with no take home work. Not so for teachers. I could go on and on about what teachers do outside the regular school day but what's the use. It's all been said upthread.

[knitter4democracy]

156. When I worked in offices, it was a break.

Teaching's much harder, and I've done both to be able to say that.

[phylny]

112. Several is not all, thus a blanket statement

The districts must have a very short academic calendar. Every district we were ever in either ended at the beginning of June and started again in the middle of August, or ended toward the end of June and started in September. Three months off is a luxury.

[barb162]

117. this still sounds like about 8+ weeks vacation a year plus I bet

you were getting a lot of time off for Xmas and Easter or spring break. In most industry now, 2 -3weeks vacation is IT!

[Bridget Burke]

194. What school district are you discussing?

Is there a site that shows actual pay rates? And shows the actual school year calendar?

[barb162]

119. so 8+ plus summer weeks plus Xmas and spring break weeks off

add up to a lot of weeks off; far more than employees in government or industry

[phylny]

133. And not three months in the summer, which was my point. n/t

[LostinVA]

134. It's not vacation!

Vacation time is when you get PAID for it. Teacher's do not get paid for their summers off. Most work. I have relatives who teach in the NE where the pay is good, and some of them don't have to work summers. Some do. Friends of mine, with advanced degrees, that teach in VA, NC, and OK make less than $35,000 a year after a decade's worth of teaching and have to work summers. They were aware it was a low paying profession. They aren't whining -- they are asking for respect and being treated fairly. Teachers also often work during the Xmas break, they have to. Plus, spend the time coaching a team, putting together the yearbook, etc. Here in VA, many districts never give them raises.

I work in state government, non union, and get three weeks off a year in vacation, and about four days at Xmas. I do not begrudge teachers a few extra days here and there off. Why? Because I don't have to do about 30 hours or more of extracurricular work at home, and then hearing, "you get the summers off!"

I'm also not really believing these claims of $140k teaching jobs. I just called my mom, and her brother in NJ has a Master's, is a department head, and has worked in the system for over 30 years, and he makes about $75k. This is NJ, not OK.

Sorry for the rant, but this drives me crazy! A good teacher is literally priceless, but we should give them a good salary,, pay for supplies, and not say they get three months of vacation a year. Crazy.

[realisticphish]

163. summer homes...

hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha
as the son of a teacher, who was the daughter of a teacher, i must wipe the tears from my eyes at THAT one


:hippie: The Incorrigible Democrat

[GaYellowDawg]

177. Crap. Absolute crap.

Either you're lying to us, or all those teachers are trust fund babies, or they won the lottery and are teaching for the sheer fun of it (that last is a joke, by the way, any teachers reading, I hope you weren't drinking anything because it's probably on your monitor).

Teachers cannot afford summer homes. Teachers can barely afford new homes. I come from a family full of teachers, and I can tell you that there's not a one of them with a summer home, or even close to the means to have a summer home. Or a time share. And the summer vacation had better be within driving distance, because there's not enough money for airfare.

Several teachers with summer homes. Jesus H. Christ, what a whopper. I suppose next you'll be telling us you know several Burger King managers who own their own baseball teams.

Until you get into the trenches and teach, you don't know what the hell you're talking about. Summers are spent on professional development, or another job. Not to mention having to decompress from the spring. And yes, decompress. Decompress because of all the parents who care, but think their child is an inspired genius who's an angel, when that kid is of average intellect and lackadaisical attitude (and don't tell me that teachers are supposed to inspire that attitude from scratch - you inspire your teenager to love something they don't want to do like mowing the lawn or taking out the trash and then come see me) and who is an intermittent interruption. Decompress because those parents think those same angels have a right to an A and are shocked that an average kid with crappy attitude gets a C. Decompress because of all the "instant expert" parents who think they can teach you how to teach science or literature or history because they were able to teach Junior how to catch a baseball in 15 minutes in the back yard. Decompress because of the parents who don't care and who have passed that attitude to their kids. Decompress because of the kids who you can see potential in but don't want to reach it because of the attitudes they've been taught. Decompress because of the kids who have potential and want to reach it and still can't because of their socioeconomic standing. Decompress from the constant, never-ending Niagra fall of paperwork.
Decompress from standardized tests made by "experts" who have spent zero time in the classroom that you have to teach to. Decompress from incompetent administrators, or administrators who are competent but are overloaded. Decompress from knowing that your classroom could be so much more with more money and less rigid curricula. Decompress from having at least one-third of at least one of your classes be inclusion kids who have some sort of emotional disorder and distract the other kids, and are in your class because idiot experts who haven't stepped foot in the classroom have decided that everyone can learn in the same classroom when some kids have clearly different needs. Try to forget the idea that in the fall, all of the same drawbacks will still be there because idiot people think that teaching is some kind of easy, lazy lifestyle. Realize that you, like many other teachers, care enough to go back despite the drawbacks.

There are so many things that I get tired of. People touting private schools. That's crap. You know why private schools score better? Because they have the option of selecting whom they admit, and kicking them out when they feel like it. Take the bottom 50% in aptitude and attitude out of public school classrooms and you'd see some grand public school success stories.

People telling teachers that because they're ennobled by public service, they should be content with less money. You know why firefighters and police officers and teachers get paid like crap? Because they all care enough to do the job and accept low pay as a consequence. It means that our society is least willing to reward those who are willing to contribute the most to it. That's is fundamentally perverted. Oh, and try paying the mortage with nobility. Tell the bank manager s/he should lose a few payments and feel ennobled because they're helping you stay in a house and see how quickly you lose that house.

I get tired of people saying that school should be run like a business. That analogy is completely inappropriate. The bottom line of a school is education. The bottom line of a business is money. And as for accountability, if you've got a subordinate who's affecting your job rating because of lack of motivation, in a business, you can fire him/her. How are you going to fire a kid? You know who's all gung-ho for accountability testing? Ann Coulter. That's how much sense it makes.

I get tired of people saying that throwing money at a problem is no solution. It's a hell of a good solution when lack of money is the problem! Tell you what: you put funds into the hands of teachers first, teacher trainers second, local administrators third, regional administrators fourth, state administrators fifth, and experts last, and you'll see improvement. You want to know why money gets wasted? I'll tell you why. Here in Georgia, there's been a big to-do about how the state is devoting more money to getting new math/science teachers into the classroom, and not one single communication on how to improve the situation has come to the department head of the math and science education department in the flagship institution of the state. You know why? Because of politicians who are instant experts (i.e., morons) when it comes to education. That money will be wasted on some stupid scheme that will make zero difference. Shoot, I'm just a grad student, and I can name some things involving money that would make the situation better immediately.

1. Raises for existing teachers. You want high quality, try paying for it. You're expecting Gucci shoes on a Buster Brown budget.
2. Training pay for student teachers. In what other profession do people pay for their initial on-the-job training?
3. Supplemental pay for teachers who mentor student teachers.
4. Put up the money for more full-time faculty for education departments.
5. Provide more funding for university-mentor teacher coordination.

Then there are other issues. If you've got to have an end-of-course test, the hell with ETS and other such testing agencies. Put together a team of veteran teachers in each subject and have them make out the test, and yes, give them a fat bonus for doing so. Give teachers more input into the mandated curriculum.

Of course, none of these things will happen because liars or people with agendas spend so much time propagating the idea teachers shouldn't be paid more for their carefree lifestyle of pina coladas and summer homes.

[DrZeeLit]

198. Personal thank you.

I'd kiss ya, but it's prolly agin the rules!

xoxoxox anyway

[noamnety]

102. I don't know any teachers who get three months off per year.

Students don't even get three months any more - we end mid June and start mid-August. That's two months, not three, and the teachers at my district are still working after kids are gone for the year, and we're back on staff before they return. So it's more like a 4-5 week vacation - during which we're expecting to take a continuing ed class (at our own expense). And we more than make up for that by attending weekend and evening performances, parent teacher conferences, open houses, after hour calls to parents, after school clubs we advise and kids we tutor, grading papers til 11 at night, and preparing for a different lecture every day. So the summer "vacation" is more like comp time than vacation time, since we don't get paid overtime. That four-five week vacation is cut down to nothing if you consider it as comp time. I guarantee we put in more than 160 hours of unpaid overtime during the course of a school year.

Personally, I was laid off to half time this year, and so I'm making less than 20K. But on Saturday I was attending a student performance. On Sunday I was processing the 100+ photos from it for several hours. Yesterday I worked 10 hours and today I worked 7 because grades are due. The next two days I have to work 10 hour days because we have parent teacher conferences after school. And I still have a backlog of work because I'm maintaining the website for the school, and working with 2 other teachers to develop a new course for next year. So it goes.

[proud2BlibKansan]

126. I am going to ask for proof of that

Teachers making 140,000 a year?????

No way. No way at all.

[realisticphish]

164. the only way they're making that much

is if they're drug dealers on the side :shrug:

:hippie: The Incorrigible Democrat

[proud2BlibKansan]

171. Hey don't give me any ideas

I teach in the hood. It would probably be fairly easy for me to get into the biz. :)

[realisticphish]

173. hey

ready-made clientele, right there in front of you! :evilgrin:

:hippie: The Incorrigible Democrat

[proud2BlibKansan]

209. Our D.A.R.E. cop

would probably not approve. LOL

[proud2BlibKansan]

169. Hey Barb

I am calling you on this one. I do not believe for one second that any teacher in a Chicago suburb or anywhere else makes 140,000/yr.

How about a link to prove this outrageous claim??

[jab105]

175. $140K a year...how bout that...not near me...top salary

WITH masters is $60K or so...thats with about 30 years experience...you should probably try to check those numbers, they sound about $100K over what they probably are...

I have a masters degree and make under $30K...and as far as insurance...I have a $500 deductible, but if I wanted to get my HUSBAND on my health insurance plan...just my husband...it would cost me $174 every two weeks...so, my healthy 29 year old husband crosses his fingers and hopes for the best, cause we cant afford that one!!

So, here I am starting at way less than $36K, with a Masters in materials engineering...

[environmental_wakko]

200. Hi I'm Envoronmental_Wakko

Jab105, if you are reading this, you know who I am. DU makes it really hard to communicate, I can't send you a private message for some dumb reason. Anyhow, hopefully you are reading this now, call me at lab and hopefully there's still enough time to have lunch!

[callous taoboy]

94. Myself, with Masters, 36K, 13 years of experience-

AND handing in exemplary test scores each year, AND being close to burn-out many times, AND being male I get the tough boy cases each year (whom I love to get, BTW, because I often get positive results, and this matters more to me than test scores).

For those who don't teach, or bother to read the posts of teachers, please volunteer in your local school, sign up to be a long-term sub for a teacher who will be out a while. Then let us hear your impressions of teachers and teaching.

[proud2BlibKansan]

125. I have a master's degree

and 25 years experience and I don't earn anywhere near $70,000 a year.

[fshrink]

86. Our current society sees that as "Strange News".

A detail which tells you pretty much the whole story.

[malaise]

110. Don't expect them to interrupt MJs trial

to discuss the state of education. Good for the teachers. It will only get worse.

[Bill McBlueState]

123. The buck stops... where???

District Superintendent Michele Lawrence expressed sympathy for the teachers but said there isn't money for raises. She blamed Gov. Arnold Schwarzenegger not providing as much money to education as promised.

The buck stops... where???

Come on, Ms. Lawrence, do the children a favor, go to Sacramento, and start lobbying for them.

We're getting the same thing on the other coast. My university's administration makes no effort to stand up for their employees when Romney cuts our pay. It's easier to pass the buck than to do anything about it.

[Name removed]

138. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[fooj]

159. No accountability? When I have class rosters that exceed 38 students

per period and I have only 25-30 books available, how can you even ask such a question regarding accountability? You obviously have no respect for our profession and I'm fine with that. However, I would prefer that you spew your venom elsewhere. BTW- what on earth is a "quasi administrator"? Do tell...

[realisticphish]

165. if you have ever

stood in front of 40 kids, with total responsibility, with them hating you, with them not giving a flying fuck about a word you're saying, AND being expected to make them learn, then i will listen to you. if not, then i expect you to at least do some research. you know why they want more pay? because they PAY FOR SHIT WITH THEIR OWN MONEY. My mother is a music teacher, which means she teaches about 300 kids a day, with no breaks, buys music, bought a STEREO once, and on top of that basically keeps the school running because the principal is a dipshit. these people put up with your children for 8 hours a day 3/4 of the year.

also, i declare "shannanigans" on you're 100,000 number. my mother, with 30 years of experience and a masters degree, barely makes 40,000

:hippie: The Incorrigible Democrat

[Bridget Burke]

196. So--even an Administrator can't afford to own a house...

Oh, she's a "quasi-Administrator." Still renting, though.

What are the actual figures on "test scores" & other measures of educational success in your area? Are they really teaching commie propaganda in the schools?

And, in another post, you referred to "chirun." A touch of racism there?

[fooj]

148. Maybe Shrub can "locate" the missing 9 Billion from Iraq-

think of what that amount of money could do for education! This is a sad state of affairs, indeed. I am a high school teacher in CA. and I know for a fact that almost ALL of us work many extra hours a week. You almost have to. Teaching is a vocation. Most of us teach because we love what we do. However, we have to make a stinking living, don't we? I feel horrible for everyone involved...
Our government has let us down. They have failed the children miserably.

[LWolf]

166. My association has been talking about this.

We've been working without a contract, and at impasse all year. Our district came back to the table recently, with the original cut we were at impasse over, and an extra 4% pay cut. We have all kinds of other things planned; a strong presence at every board meeting, which I'm off to in a little while, some demonstrations, LTTEs, and more. We've mentioned the big "S;" before we get to that, we'll institute something similar: resigning from all extra committees, showing up and leaving per our required contractual hours and no more, basically refusing to step an inch beyond our contractual duties. Our district would fall apart in short order if we did so. It depends on all those extra duty hours, both paid and volunteered.

[proud2BlibKansan]

170. Keep me posted on your battle

BTW, I printed out your "Hell Froze Over" post and distributed it at our prof dev day last week. My staff just sat there frozen after reading it. So now you have 25 more teachers in MO pulling for you guys out there in California. We feel your pain.

[LWolf]

186. The board meeting was interesting last night.

We assembled en masse, certificated, classified, parents, and students. It was a standing room only crowd, with a large crowd outside that couldn't fit into the building.

The issue last night? Budget cuts. We viewed a long presentation on the millions that have been cut from the budget every year since our revenue started falling in 2001. Then we were presented with a "recovery plan" that cuts classified staff heavily (they've already experienced a 40% cut in the lasst 4 years), cuts benefits, cuts salaries, leaves 2 brand new schools that voters passed local bonds to buildstanding empty next fall, to be opened someday when the budget improves, and other delightful remedies.

Libraries, technology support, and health offices are on the chopping block for classified employees. Music teachers are on the block for certificated, along with all stipends for extra curricular sports activities. Psychologists and counselors are on the block for "other."

It was a long night of remarks from the audience and discussion by the board, before the final vote. I'll hear this morning how the vote went; I went home when we got a couple of hours past my bedtime, since I have to teach this morning. I'll hear at this morning's staff meeting how the vote went.

[proud2BlibKansan]

208. Let us know

If things don't work out for you, you can always go to work in that Chicago suburb where teachers make 140,000 :)

[LWolf]

212. That's right!

That kind of money would certainly iron out the kinks in the move I'm trying to make.

I'll have to give Chicago a call; I am acquainted with a teacher there. I'm sure he'll be thrilled to tell me all about the generous teacher salaries. ;-)

Meanwhile, our board fought hard late into the night on Tuesday, the day our superintendent proclaimed "Armageddon Day" last week. We're waiting for the official minutes so we can take it apart and determine just what they ended up with when the final vote came. I've heard a few reports, and those in attendance weren't even sure what was finally being voted on. I've heard that libraries "lost," among other things, but many who were there seemed confused about what the final version of Armageddon was.

[proud2BlibKansan]

168. Another angle on this teacher pay issue

How many other jobs are there where you get paid different amounts for the same job?

First, I get my regular teacher salary.

But if I do 'extra' things, I get a totally different amount:

If I work after school in extended day* (babysitting) I get 12.57 an hour

If I go to a workshop outside of my workday, I get 14.00 an hour

If I present at a workshop*, I get two hours pay for every hour I present.

If I write curriculum*, I get 20.00 an hour

If I tutor after school* or work Sat School*, I get my hourly rate (which is my yearly salary divided by the number of total hours for the school year) Beginning teachers have a 25.00 hourly rate.

If I sub for another teacher, I get 25.00 an hour (which is considerably less than my hourly rate, but I guess if I am subbing and teaching twice as many kids, the district thinks I am only worth as much as a first year teacher)

So, according to this system, I am worth less at a workshop (trying to improve my craft) than if I tutor kids after school. And I am valued the least as a babysitter.

The * jobs have to be applied for. I have to submit a resume and be interviewed for any of them. I have taught for these people for 20+ years, but I have to type up a resume if I want to tutor after school.

[roguevalley]

178. after 27 years, a masters degree and all the shit I could carry on

my back, I made the top salary of 64,000. I don't know where you are finding the salaries stated, but I don't know anyone who has them. The usual teacher salary -counting hours, stuff you buy yourself, the endless classes you have to take, etc- usually works out to 47 cents an hour.

[fishwax]

201. That's an exaggeration

you were being facetious about the 47 cents an hour, right? Since there are less than 10000 hours in a year, that would mean a teacher who never slept and worked constantly would have a salary of $4700.

Of course, the never slept part and the work constantly part aren't much of an exaggeration, and after all the money she spends on supplies, etc., my wife's salary, while not as low as $4700 sometimes feels depressingly close. ;)

[proud2BlibKansan]

207. Now that is a lot more reasonable than

the claim of over 100,000. Top pay in my district is around 60,000.

I am still waiting for someone to verify that claim that the Chicago teachers are making 140,000. (I will stop laughing when it is verified.)

[katinmn]

187. 2 years without a contract is too long.

I support the teachers 100 percent.

Time to fight back.

In Minnesota teachers pay on average $230 out-of-pocket for school supplies because our governor would rather put money into prisons, casinos and other neocon projects than fund education.

We had a big rally here on Monday with about 6,000 parents, students and teachers demanding better funding. They haven't seen anything yet.

One of our state legislators has introduced a bill to opt out of NCLB even though we could loose $200K in federal funding. I'm all for it. We can do better.

Desperate times call for desperate measures.

[Godhumor]

191. Working in DC PS

I'm replying to the original message, so this doesn't get lost in some truncated ladder within the thread. As should be obvious from my post count and avatar, it takes a lot to actually make me stop lurking and post. This one will do it.

I'm a teacher, my mother is a teacher, my father and stepmother are college professors. I have grown up in two teaching households and have entered the career for myself. So far, I have taught in Japan, inner-city Hawaii, and now DC--all of this comes from getting certified in NY.

Some states, including NY, have laws against "essential employees" striking--these include the chronically under appreciated police, fire department, and teachers. Many of these workers when asking for fair an equitable treatment have to make their displeasure known in ways that will not lead to arrest. In places where governments can hold up contracts for years, the common "action" is something called "working to the contract". Teachers are not required to contact parents, oversee clubs, serve as academic advisers, or tutor children; we do it because it has become expected and teachers do not want to see their students fail. We live and breathe our profession--I do not know one single educator who is not constantly thinking about future lessons throughout the day. I know teachers who spend 2 or 3 hours on the phone contacting parents, sometimes every night. I spend, on average, an extra 12 to 15 hours per week of my own time to get ready for class. Teachers teach because they want to; I know no one who has entered the profession to become comfortable.

The Berkley teachers are showing people just how much educators do by actually working to their contract. It is amazing the change this entails in the schools and communities. Rarely, do teachers strike, but just like anyone else, we want fair treatment and better working conditions (Mostly this entails better funding for our building, our students, smaller class sizes, etc. Things we are doing to try and help the children.). Working to the contract serves two purposes--first, we are still doing our job as outlined by the government. Second, we show just how much more teachers do because we believe in our profession.

I am an urban teacher. I work in city schools, and I will continue to do so until I become a liability to the profession. In Hawaii, I dealt with gang wars, students pushing others down flights of stairs, abusive parents, and blunt instruments being pulled out in my classroom (last time it was a pair of brass knuckles), yet I continue to teach. I am now working in inner-city DC, and I love my job. I'm working at a new renovated technology high school, I have wonderfully polite & respectful students, I am creating my own curriculum, and I have class sizes that average 15 students. In urban public teaching terms, I have found the mother lode, but it has never been easy.

I teach because I love it, and I resent implications that teachers are being selfish, lazy, and unprofessional for trying to make things better.

[dhinojosa]

193. Their union needs to step up and Ahhhhnold needs to quit.

"The union declared an impasse in negotiations last June and has not had a contract for two years."

[nolabels]

195. A Kick for the TEACHERS

Without them I would never have been able to read any of this

And to Arnold the lousy B movie actor, YOU JUST PLAIN SUCK.

An even worse Governor than and actor, just par for course I guess :shrug:

[nolabels]

205. My proof reading sucks too

Hey, I never claimed to be a genius, let alone a Governator

Don't they have steroids for people who need to get smarter? I bet Arnie would be taking them if they did :D