MSN: Pastor says BTK suspect remains part of church (+grabbing DNA)

[diamond14]

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/6988048/


Pastor says BTK suspect remains part of church
However, city votes to fire Rader from job as code enforcer

The Associated Press
Updated: 8:08 a.m. ET March 3, 2005

-snips-

WICHITA, Kan. - On the same day he was fired from his job, the suspect in the BTK serial killings got assurances he will continue to be a member the church where he is a leader.


Dennis Rader, charged with 10 killings over the past three decades, was let go from his job as a compliance supervisor in the Wichita suburb of Park City. The City Council took the action on an unanimous vote Wednesday evening, giving failure to report to work or call in as the reason for Rader’s dismissal.

Earlier in the day, Rader was visited in jail by his pastor, the Rev. Michael Clark of Christ Lutheran Church in Wichita. “We are not going to cut him off. I could tell that he was relieved,” Clark told The Associated Press. “He is still a part of the body of Christ — and that is something some people will have a hard time hearing.”

DNA sample helped

The Wichita Eagle reported Thursday, citing unidentified sources, that investigators had obtained DNA before Rader’s arrest from a tissue sample linked to his daughter’s medical records. The sources told the newspaper that the sample was obtained without the daughter’s knowledge and that investigators wanted to hide from Rader that they were zeroing in on him as a suspect.

(disturbing that the government can seize your DNA from your medical test tissue WITHOUT YOUR KNOWLEDGE !)


Serial murder suspect Dennis Rader makes a court appearance via video on Tuesday. Richard Ney, an attorney temporarily representing Rader, is at left.

[imenja]

1. it's in the patriot act and new medical "privacy" guidelines

You sign a waiver every time you see a new doctor now.

[diamond14]

3. OMG...so, the government can just GRAB your DNA if you have medical tests?

and use it against your own family? what a HORROR show !!!

[imenja]

7. at least for so-called national security

Don't you remember having to sign the new medical privacy forms a year or two ago? I'm guessing it's in their. Or else they would have to get a warrant for the records.

[Sparky McGruff]

51. Those were HIPPA forms...

Health Insurance Portability and Privacy Act. Legislation sponsored by Bill Clinton. Overall, they protect privacy of health information. That portion of the HIPPA legislation just happened to take effect while the Chimpster was in office; they weren't his doing.

[Skittles]

61. it is HIPAA

Health Insurance Portability and Accountability Act of 1996

[imenja]

8. self delete

dupe

[Richard Steele]

6. Earlier reports had said she was helping voluntarily.

Or at least that was implied.

This sounds like a disturbing loophole this guy could escape prosecution on.
If I was his lawyer, I'd be fighting the DNA evidence all the way to SCOTUS.

[bloom]

13. I think they have a lot of evidence

at this point.

I don't think he's going to get out of it.

[Richard Steele]

20. I really hope they do have A LOT of evidence.

This guys 'profile' (as reported so far) seems damned unlikely.

Serial killers don't just STOP killing, yet RESUME taunting the police years later.

I imagine there are some UNATTRIBUTED victims in those years.

[bloom]

28. I was reading some of the Wichita articles

sounds like he may have gotten stirred up again because of a book that was coming out about him.

I wondered if - for the most part he stopped when he had a family to consider. :shrug:

Just a thought.

[0007]

46. Kind of like Ted Kaczynski (The Unibomber) who got his shorts

in a twist when Timothy McVeigh out did him. Kaczynski put out the Unabomber Manifesto that led to his arrest and conviction.

[tblue37]

54. He has also confessed to six of the ten

murders he has been charged with.

[MADem]

55. Suppposedly, he confessed to some of the killings n/t

[daleo]

40. You do wonder about this.

The fact that they first said the daughter helped, and now says she didn't know raises some red flags. If he had the money for a good legal team, I am sure they would get a lot of mileage out of it. But, I think he just has a public defender, so the point may be moot.

[ernstbass]

27. You can refuse to sign the waiver - I always do

[imenja]

36. really?

I thought you couldn't see the doctor if you didn't sign it? Apparently I'm wrong.

[Nicholas D Wolfwood]

2. Re: DNA seizure

I'd like to know more facts about it before I call it disturbing. I'm at very least hopeful they had a warrant before they did, and I'm pretty sure it wouldn't be possible for them to just scan random people's DNA for a possible match.

[LoveMySoldiers]

5. They did have a warrant

[diamond14]

10. Even more disturbing: government can scan random people anytime

searching around in people's biopsies, pap smears, throat cultures, stool samples for "pre-emptive" "potential" pre-criminal elements in OUR society...and then, as currently allowed under bush*, throw these people IN JAIL, without charges, without attorneys and without telling their families where or why...FOREVER....some people IN AMERICA have been imprisoned without charges or representation since 911 (over 3 years)...and worse in American Detention Camps (Guantanamo, Abu Gharib, etc. etc.)....

[livetohike]

4. These were my thoughts reading it too

<(disturbing that the government can seize your DNA from your medical test tissue WITHOUT YOUR KNOWLEDGE !)>

[MADem]

56. In the military, you are REQUIRED to give a large spot of blood

They stick your finger, and make you bleed onto a circle on a piece of very absorbent paper, and that is profiled out and kept on file. The idea there is so they can DNA your dead body parts and figure out who you are after the IED tosses chunks of you all over the dusty road outside Baghdad....

[goodboy]

9. as long as he says "god told me to do it" he'll be fine...If he said

Metallica made me do it, he'll be fried.

[imenja]

11. Andrew Yates?

Insanity defenses virtually never succeed. They have the lowest acquittal rates of any defense.

[diamond14]

12. the TWINKIE defense worked......

:nuke:

[imenja]

15. that was many years ago

the guidelines were tightened after Ronald Reagan's assailant was acquitted on an insanity defense.

[diamond14]

22. no, hinkley got off because HIS DAD and bush* DAD are CLOSE friends

pappy bush* and hinkley's DAD did a lot of OIL business and socializing TOGETHER for many years....including dad hinkley's funding of pappy bush* campaign efforts, etc.


in fact, neil bush* and hinkley's brother had scheduled a CELEBRATION right after hinkley's assassination attempt on reaguns....the CELEBRATION was revealed by the Patriotic Caterer...and reaguns survived...so neil cancelled the celebration party with HINKLEY's BROTHER (nobody would have known if not for the caterer)...


don't ever forget...if hinkley had succeeded, bush* pappy (the VP at the time) would have become president immediately....


added bonus for hinkley: bush* has now allowed hinkley to have UNSUPERVISED VISITS with his parents in Virginia....wandering around DC and now wandering around Virginia UNSUPERVISED...as a bush* payback to those who do their nasty work.....

[imenja]

31. regardless, the effect was to change insanity guidelines

ask the lawyers in the justice group if you don't believe me.

[JDPriestly]

39. Do you have links for these 'facts"?

[diamond14]

41. link....include UPI and Associated Press articles when hinkley shot reagun

this is just ONE of many links to the reagun assassination attempt and the bush* and hinkley close social and business relationships...remember, who would benefit the MOST if reaguns had been killed.....ummmmm....the bush* family....the Vice President, pappy bush* would have IMMEDIATELY taken the office of president...google the web and you'll find LOTS of coverage (which the Main Stream Media has tried to downplay)....


http://www.hereinreality.com/hinckley.html

Bush Son Had Dinner Plans With Hinckley Brother Before Shooting
The Associated Press Domestic News
March 31, 1981, Tuesday, PM cycle

HOUSTON


-snips-

The family of the man charged with trying to assassinate President Reagan is acquainted with the family of Vice President George Bush and had made large contributions to his political campaign, the Houston Post reported today.


The newspaper said in a copyright story, Scott Hinckley, brother of John W. Hinckley Jr., who allegedly shot Reagan, was to have dined tonight in Denver at the home of Neil Bush, one of the vice president's sons.

The newspaper said it was unable to reach Scott Hinckley, vice president of his father's Denver-based firm, Vanderbilt Energy Corp., for comment. Neil Bush lives in Denver, where he works for Standard Oil Co. of Indiana.

In 1978, Neil served as campaign manager for his brother, George W. Bush, the vice president's oldest son, who made an unsuccessful bid for Congress. Neil lived in Lubbock throughout much of 1978, where John Hinckley lived from 1974 through 1980.

--------------------------------------------

Report Links Suspect with Bushes

U.P.I.
March 31, 1981, Tuesday, PM cycle

DENVER

-snips-

Neil Bush, son of Vice President George Bush, is part of Denver's booming oil business scene so it was not unusual his path would cross that of Scott Hinckley, the older brother of the man who shot President Reagan. The younger Bush, a ''land man'' for the Amoco Oil Co. in Denver, told the Houston Post in a copyright story published today he and Scott Hinckley were to have had dinner together tonight.


Sharon Bush said... ''They (the Hinckleys) are a nice family ... and have given a lot of money to the Bush campaign,''


Another of the vice president's sons, George W. Bush, lived in Lubbock in 1978 and ran unsuccessfully for Congress. Police have said John Hinckley Jr. lived in Lubbock at that time and once attended Texas Tech University. Young George Bush did not recall meeting the suspect.

----------------------------------------

Texas Governor Clements Criticizes Shooting Coverage

By FRANK COOK
United Press International
March 31, 1981, Tuesday, AM cycle

FORT WORTH, Texas


-snips-

Clements talked with reporters briefly after addressing the Southwest Cattle Raisers Association Convention in Fort Worth, Texas.


Despite the assassination attempt in which a ''Saturday night special'' was used, Clements said he still opposed strict handgun controls.

''Guns have to be registered in Texas now,'' he said. ''I'm not sure it would help. People will be able to get guns.''

Clements was with Vice President George Bush on Bush's aircraft in Austin a short time after the assassination attempt on Reagan, but would not characterize Bush's mood at the time.


The governor did not comment on the assassination attempt during his address to the cattlemen, more than 2,500 of whom are attending the convention. Bush addressed the convention Monday morning just minutes before Reagan was shot. Air Force Two carrying Bush went to Austin where the vice president met with Clements before returning to Washington.

[Zenlitened]

16. "Gay panic" is always a favorite, too. Maybe he'll claim...

... a gay guy smiled at him, and that drove him to kill. Uh, repeatedly. Um, over a span of many years. With the taunting letters and all.

:crazy:

[StuckinKS]

52. I try to imagine

if Pastor Clark would display the same openess and compassion if ... say... a gay member merely came out to the congregation. Unlikely.

The church is ELCA, the less conservative version, but in Wichita that doen't always count for much.

[donsu]

14. what is wrong with pastor Clark? since when does a church harbor a

murderer?

It's one thing if Clark wants to personally see the murderer but to say he is still part of the church congregation is nuts.

[harrison]

17. Well....the idea is that the visible church represents God in

some form or fashion and that we are accepted by God despite our imperfections and sins, which includes being a serial killer. Therefore, the church is still embracing this guy. I think that is the way it works. I could be wrong though.

[imenja]

18. I disagree

One, he hasn't been convicted. He is innocent until proved guilty. Secondly, religion isn't only for the righteous. In my view, a good church should provide ministry and guidance even to the fallen. They need spiritual guidance more than the rest of us. What good would a church be if they only supported their congregants in good times? It is God who grants ultimate forgiveness, and all of us have an opportunity to repent at any time in our lives.

[plcdude]

21. right on

that is what it is all about.

[donsu]

30. bosh - garble de gook - the man tortured and murdered people

the church should throw him out

[imenja]

33. judgment: both secular and divine

Does this man have a right to a fair trial? Or would you hang him now? His crimes are horrendous, of the worst sort imaginable. The severity of those crimes makes it all the more important that we are certain he is actually the murderer. That is what a trial is for.

The question of religion is entirely separate. Would you have every Church expel its members upon arrest for any crime, or only certain crimes? And what is the evidentiary standard you would use to establish excommunication before trial? What if the court later determined a person accused of murder is innocent? Should they then be allowed back in the church? The church has thus abandoned them in their moment of greatest need.

"Let he who is without sin cast the first stone." The importance of Christ's statement there is that we all are sinners in some regard. Ultimate judgment in a religious sense if for God alone. You are not God. My sense is that you probably are not religious either. Am I mistaken in that? If not, why is it that you imagine you are entitled to decide who should benefit from ministry and ultimately God's grace? If you are, I hope you take some time to reflect on the similarity between your own point here and the judgmental view of Christianity espoused by Jerry Falwell and his ilk. Christ's primary message was one of forgiveness. Even the worst of us can receive Grace if we truly repent. Our justice system has abandoned the idea of penitence, but Christianity is centered around the idea of an internal, spiritual transformation based on a communion with God. Even if he is the BTK killer, this man, like all of us, have the opportunity to change himself for the better: to transform a life based on horror and degradation to one that has meaning. That is the power of redemption. Whether he is able to do that is a matter between God, his minister, and himself.

[GreatScott]

38. Yes, but that was a long time ago.

There seems to be some evidence that he rehabilitated himself. He was a public servant, a Cub Scout Master and active in his church.

Perhaps he's changed.

[DemBones DemBones]

19. It's about Christian forgiveness. Jesus said to visit those

in prison.

[imenja]

32. and he was crucified with a group of thieves

[Bill McBlueState]

24. aside from the theology of it

Aside from the theology of it, I don't think most Protestant churches have a formal policy for "drumming someone out" like excommunication.

[JVS]

45. The ELCA is very liberal and it is unlikely that a lay-person would ever..

be excommunicated. Excommunication is generally only possible for people who would probably quit anyway and who have openly advocated teachings that the ELCA regards as false on issues that are considered vital to the faith (for instance denial of the trinity, denial of Christ's divinity) It is really hard to get excommunicated, especially because many topics are categorized as optional. For instance the ELCA holds that Mary remained a virgin for her entire life, but because scripture is not completely clear on the matter (mentionings of Jesus' "brothers" the individual is free to believe one way or the other on Mary being "ever virgin"

[bloom]

47. Various churches used to do some amount of "shunning"

for fairly innocuous offenses (1700's for instance). As a way to keep people in line, I guess.

[diamond14]

26. God forbid that a church should THROW out evil and the devil himself

better to let the 'face of evil' use your computer and his position to continue his KILLING spree....churches HARBOR evil....Jesus threw the money-changers OUT of the temple...to forgive is one thing....but to use your church to harbor and enable murders is quite another....


read about it in

PEOPLE OF THE LIE by Dr.M.Scott Peck

"What better place for evil to hide, but in a church"

[diamond14]

48. churches sheltered pedophiles, and now 'serial killers'....SUE the clerics

who shelter criminals...

this red-state fundie church may soon find itself in the same 'position' as the Catholic Church, who sheltered 'pedophiles' and had to cough up a LOT of money for that criminal activity....


this church too, should be held accountable for sheltering a serial killer.....

and of course, the REAL BIG QUESTION: should this minister be ordered to testify about his 45 minute 'counseling' session with the 'serial killer' that he sheltered??????...letting him use the church computer to taunt the police....letting him LEAD the fundi-church while KILLING.....and now..."counseling" the serial killer...it shocks me that the police/judge let this possible accomplice into the jail house for 'counseling'...real weird....

anyone who aids a terrorist, is also complicit (according to bush* doctrine)...

[lastliberalintexas]

57. PRESUMPTION OF INNOCENCE

God, I get tired of having to remind people of this on a *progressive* board. This man has not been convicted by a jury of his peers. Whether you think he committed these crimes or not is really irrelevant. Under our laws, an individual is presumed innocent until proven guilty beyond reasonable doubt. We demand that the government be held to these high, exacting standards before it can deprive its citizens of their liberty in order to protect the freedoms of those who've committed no crimes.


Beyond that, the pastor is acting exactly as a religious leader should. He is accepting that person as he is, proverbial warts and all. Christianity (or any religious belief for that matter) should not be an excuse from jail time if convicted, obviously. But this preacher is actually practicing the kind of tolerance and compassion taught by Jesus. The kind that the religious right ignores.

[beyurslf]

23. They sampled THOUSANDS of men's DNA here in the past year

for this case. Most were approached and asked to give a sample volunarily. Of course, if you refused, you looked suspicious. If you did it, you had to be willing to give up civil rights. I am happy I am too young to have been a suspect.

[diamond14]

25. that's insane.....it's a real witch hunt....you become a 'suspect' if you

refuse to give up your civil rights....

this is bush* U.S.A.P.A.T.R.I.O.T. Act in action....


this will definitely get WORSE under buah* new Attorney General 'Torture-memo' gonzales....

[imenja]

34. I hear what you are saying, but I'm ambivalent about it

First off, these widespread donations were voluntary, technically at least. Police put pressure on suspects to provide DNA, but they have the legal right to refuse. You can become a suspect due to that refusal, but you will not be convicted or even prosecuted without DNA evidence that confirms a line to the crime.

Like you, I'm concerned about an increasingly intrusive state. I also know that many thousands of criminals get away with rape, and less often murder, but would be prosecuted through DNA evidence. The solution, however, is not likely to be found in gathering everyone's DNA. There are many thousands of unprocessed rape kits in storage because local authorities lack funding to run the testing. DNA also serves the purpose of exonerating the wrongly confused. I'm ambivalent on the issue. I know your concern for privacy is a very important one, but as a woman, I don't like the idea of so many sexual predators walking the streets.

[diamond14]

44. remember the FBI laboratory DNA contamination? major mess with DNA

and little has changed with that mess...except that bush* has completely cut out all laboratory regulations....ALL...including pharmaceutical drug laboratories, EPA contract laboratories, medical testing laboratories, forensic laboratories....

all are COMPLETELY de-regulated under bush*....major errors are occurring in all laboratories due to lack of regulations...NO Quality Control/Quality Assurance....NO laboratory AUDITS anymore....under bush*, you don't even need EDUCATION to work in a laboratory, ANYONE can be a chemist, go right from a mcDonald's burger-job to analyzing DNA in a DEATH PENALTY case, NO PROBLEM under bush*.....


not all laboratory personnel are dishonest, but some are...bush* has stifled WHISTLE-BLOWERS too...like the chemist who busted the FBI forensic laboratory (I think his name was Dr. Fred Whitehurst, and I know he was FIRED after whistleblowing the BIG FBI forensic laboratory).....just like anywhere else....even the EPA laboratory in Chicago found TWO people taking bribes to alter laboratory data on Superfund sites (it's easier than cleaning up the site, just CHANGE the numbers).....it's complete CHAOS in laboratories, like the FLU VACCINE LABORATORY, where all the vaccine became contaminated....the forensic laboratories are the WORST, with NO oversight at all....and a gullible non-scientific public who has NO CLUE of how DNA analysis are done, and the ERRORS involved in methodology, instruments, human errors, chemical reactions, and outright criminal falsification of results...

bush* and his minions do NOT allow any regulation of laboratories...it's only naive people who think that a DNA test is proof-positive of guilt....

[imenja]

49. while it's convenient to blame Bush for all problems in the world

it's not rational. The vaccine lab problem was in Britain, a country that is obviously subject to no American regulation.

States regulate accreditation requirements for criminal labs that present evidence in their courts. The federal government can regulate only those labs whose evidence is used in federal court. Most criminal cases are adjudicated at the state level. The problem of increasing the qualifications required for crime lab personnel is very important. But actions are being taken to improve those labs. The Houston lab, the worst of all of them, has lost its accreditation and was recently denied an attempt to be re-certified since they failed to meet appropriate standards. Some states have far more rigorous standards than others. All of this, however, is the responsibility of state legislatures, not George Bush.

The Innocence Project ( http://www.innocenceproject.org/ ) has lobbied for the successful passage of legislation to increase DNA testing, not lessen it. Post-conviction DNA testing has led to many wrongly convicted men being released for death row. It has literally saved lives.

To dismiss DNA testing altogether because of problems with crime labs is irresponsible. Even taking such inexcusable scandals into account, DNA is a far more reliable indicator of guilt than other kinds of evidence, especially eye witness testimony. The solution is to tighten guidelines at both the federal and state level, which some jurisdictions and all professional forensic organizations are currently working on. I saw a recent news report (it had to be either 60 minutes, Nightline, or The Newshour, since those are the only television news programs I watch) that discussed new guidelines taking effect this month. I'm afraid I don't remember the details.

At least 25% of women in this country are raped. You may consider that of minor importance, but many of us do not. It is essential to lock up sexual predators. Crime labs need to be held to strict standards, since their work is so important, but your assertion that Bush has made all of this illegal is frankly ridiculous. If you are referring to specific federal legislation or an executive order, I would appreciate knowing the specifics.

[MADem]

58. Interesting--and not the only place they are doing this sort of thing

They are collecting DNA all over Cape Cod in the Christina Worthington killing, still unsolved....

[onehandle]

29. He remains a Republican Party member, too. nt

[imenja]

35. It would be nice to assume all serial killers are Republicans

but I seriously doubt that. His party affiliation is incidental.
This seems to be a man who was extremely adept at presenting a front of normalcy to the public. He was a code enforcer for the city, a "stickler" for law and order. He was active in his church and, it seems, a regular Republican voter. He hid from the entire world, including his neighbors, family, and fellow congregants, the true nature of his sadistic mind. Like Ted Bundy and so many other serial killers, his public life stood in stark contrast to his criminal nature.

[applegrove]

37. They caught a child murderer in Canada that way... they just couldn't

enter it into evidence I think. But then they knew who their man was and they could build a case against him and what the hell is wrong with that? DNA is no different than a figerprint. The old "fingerprint on the glass" trick is a good one. Why make things harder for your average cop?

[JVS]

42. Dennis Rader and I are both members of the ELCA, and Pastor Clark is right

Being a serial killer isn't grounds for excommunication, thus Rader remains part of the Church.

[msongs]

43. Can he still be a CUB Scout leader? after he is NOT gay so that is

ok.

Msongs
www.msongs.com/liberaltshirts.htm

[SoCalDem]

50. Ever have a blood test? a urinalysis? a biopsy?

Are you SURE the leftovers were "disposed of"? What if they were just set aside somewhere with your name on them, awaiting a "future need" for identification?

Do you trust the word of strangers who tell you they are discarded? Strangers who work FOR insurance companies who PAY THEIR FEES..?

Something to think about :)

[ikojo]

53. Suspected of murder but....

“He is still a part of the body of Christ — and that is something some people will have a hard time hearing.”

I guess one can be accused of heinous crimes and still be "part of the body of Christ" as long as one has never had an abortion or engaged in homosexual acts or sex outside of marriage.

WOW! These people have their priorities screwed up! If he was gay you had best believe this "pastor" would not stand by his side. He'd be out of that church with the quickness.

[Bridget Burke]

59. True Christians believe even murderers have souls.

Although, to make a legal point, Rader has not been proven guilty. That legal point is worth preserving for future use.

The Reverend Carroll Pickett (Presbyterian) ministered to prisoners on Death Row up in Huntsville (Texas) for fifteen years. Many were plainly guilty of dreadful crimes, but he was & remains an opponent of the death penalty.

www.houstonpress.com/issues/2000-11-02/news/feature.html

Rader's church is not "sheltering" him. He's in the hands of the secular authorities.

[dryan]

60. My 2 cents,....

visiting the inprisoned is one of the works of mercy