U.S. Rejects Italy Journalist's Claims (Scott McClellan)

[cthrumatrix]

U.S. Rejects Italy Journalist's Claims

8 minutes ago White House - AP


By TERENCE HUNT, AP White House Correspondent

WASHINGTON - The White House on Monday said it was "absurd" for a former hostage in Iraq (news - web sites) to charge that U.S. military forces may have deliberately targeted her car as she was being rushed to freedom.

White House press secretary Scott McClellan said the car carrying Italian journalist Giuliana Sgrena was traveling on one of the most dangerous roads in Iraq, to the Baghdad airport, when it was fired upon. An Italian intelligence officer in the car was shot and killed.


Responding to Sgrena's statement that the car may have been deliberately targeted, McClellan said. "It's absurd to make any such suggestion, that our men and women in uniform would deliberately target innocent civilians.


"That's just absurd," McClellan repeated.

snip

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=544&ncid=703&e=6&u=/ap/20050307/ap_on_go_pr_wh/us_italian_journalist


there ya go....it's absurd

[Don Claybrook]

1. Also absurd: pumping 400 rounds into their car

Did Scott mention this other absurdity by any chance? Hmmm.

[Blackthorn]

5. Yeah...

...well the absurd has a strange practice of being the truth.

[mom cat]

44. Hi Blackthorn. Welcome to DU.

:hi!

[Laurab]

51. Particularly with this administration

the absurd normally IS the truth with this regime.

[Igel]

24. That number sounded odd to me:

300-400 rounds in 10 seconds in possible, but do you really think anything larger than a slightly overgrown amoeba is going to survive it?

I'm not sure I can count 30 separate incidents in a second. (Actually, classical guitar tremolo tends to be interpreted as a single long sound, and that perception kicks in at under 10 "plucks" per second.)

[ashmanonar]

29. and bc the driver WASN'T HARMED,

that tells you they were aiming at the backseat, and at sgrena. the only reason she's alive is that security agent who jumped in front of her.

if you want to stop a car, wouldn't you fire at the engine, or even the driver?

[Igel]

68. Yeah, that's where you'd fire.

You could miss, but that's where you'd aim.

Still don't buy the 300-400 rounds claim. If it's right, it certainly wouldn't be the first time I was wrong.

[louis-t]

38. I was never that good at tremolo

I probably could only muster 7 or 8 plucks a second.

[ZR2]

55. 400 rounds ? Not in this car

Video that the picture was taken from

http://dailynews.yahoo.com//p/v?u=/ap_av/20050304/av_ap_wl/3969bd1456cb711006f784911e5d8c0d&cid=452&f=53746348

Somebody seems to be exagerating just a little bit.

[daleo]

60. A thread on GD says this photo is a hoax.

It is apparently taken from a February incident, and was perpetuated among right wing bloggers.

[ZR2]

67. Unless the AP was part of the hoax.

The picture came straight from their video about the shooting.

[bemildred]

70. Here on DU, many of us consider that entirely possible.

You know, crazy looney leftist conspiracy theorists and all that?
:crazy:

[bahrbearian]

71. They already retracted that ,and noted it was the car she was

Kidnapped from! Nice try though.

[daleo]

72. Well it is the wrong car.

It could be said that the AP report was confusing on this point, whether by intent or mistake is up to each of us to judge for ourselves.

[w4rma]

74. Hoax by some right-wing green tomatos website

possibly the AP was trying to muddy the information pool, also with the same agenda as the right-wing.


http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=104x3234761

[LynnTheDem]

76. How did anyone inside the car get killed by troops in front? Window

isn't broken.

That ain't the car.

Edit: nope, that wasn't the car (just saw the retraction)

[ewagner]

2. Non-denial, denial

Yeah, right, it's absurd....... and

"...that our men and women in uniform would deliberately target innocent civilians.


It was the "suits" in the pentagon who deliberately targeted.

[daleo]

17. My first thought too.

When someone says an action attributed to them is absurd, that doesn't mean they are denying that action.

[cliss]

30. And notice WHO they're pointing the finger at....

"...our men and women in uniform....."

They're hedging their bets and making sure that the troops will be scapegoated. They're SO transparent.

Particularly when it worked so well with Abu Ghraib.

[DixieSticks]

85. Absurd....

Its pathetic

[Blue_Tires]

3. and the official white house cover-up starts

who didn't see this coming?

[Blue to the bone]

4. Produce the troops Scott so we can hear their side then. n/t

[Blackthorn]

7. That'll never happen...n/t

[maxrandb]

6. Then Jeff Gannon asked

"Scott, Guilana Sgrena wrote for a known 'left-wing' paper in the socialist sympathiser country of Italy. Given the great moral courage of our president and all who bow before him, how do you deal with commies like Sgrena who are obviously detached from reality? (then he puts his hand to his ear like a phone and mouths "Call Me)

Hey, it could have happened if he hadn't been caught.

[bemildred]

8. Scotty, Scotty, Scotty, you need to read more.

Civilians are not only "targeted" but killed in Iraq by US
troops all the time. Things that happen in fact and are reported
all the time cannot be "absurd". You need to explain what
really happened.

[murray hill farm]

9. it is absurd!

that our men and woman would deliberately target innocent civilians..if they had been told who they were targeting..but..and it is a big but...because what we really need to know is why they were not told who it was..this had been communicated in advance..and i guess we also need to know just what the us solders were told by their superiors...that caused them to think that this car needed to be targeted.

[katinmn]

10. They won't get off that easy. Now Bulgaria is calling for a full

investigation into one of its soldiers or citizens who was also killed in Iraq by friendly US fire just a short time before the Italians were sprayed with what they described as 300-400 rounds. Too bad the car is now "lost." Now that is absurd, Scottie.

What is going on over there??

[NYC]

61. I wondered about the Bulgarian. It's in this thread:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=102x1287395

Not in the title, but here is an excerpt from the article:


Military officials announced that a Bulgarian soldier was killed by machine-gun fire Friday night near the southern city of Diwaniya.

[TreasonousBastard]

11. And we should believe him... why?

[Julius Civitatus]

12. They had already passed the checkpoint!

That's the important part of the story that Scotty ignores. How comes the car passed the checkpoint safely, then got shot with 400 rounds within the safe zone? It doesn't make sense, and it sure does stir some suspicious thoughts.

[TahitiNut]

22. How effective is security that allows such a force inside its perimeter?

Some rather obvious absurdities exist within these non-denial denials. Baghdad Airport is/was the Custer Battle 'security' contract - under the aegis of the U.S. occupation forces. If there's any kind of security perimeter around the airport and the Sgrena car was within that perimeter, then who the fuck got inside that perimeter with that firepower??

The fascist fucks in the Offal Orifice have some 'splaining to do.

[KoKo]

13. I'm surprised he didn't refer to her as "Collateral Damage." Sheesh n/t

[Junkdrawer]

14. Conspiracy Theory ! Conspiracy Theory ! Why all the soldiers...

in the country would have to be in on this.

I mean, it's not like a single commander in the right position could have given an 'open fire' command.

[peacetalksforall]

15. Looks like no one asked him if 300-400 rounds was 'absurd'.

[justjones]

16. So, he's basically using the troops AGAIN....

by insinuating that if you believe the troops targeted the Italian journalist we are once again "not supporting the troops" and accusing them of some kind of crime when in fact it has nothing to do with the troops, but the criminal govennment who controls them.

Gosh, they really think we are stupid. Oops, I forget, the majority of Americans are.

[bemildred]

18. Oh yeah, what roadblock?, and where is the car?

[daleo]

19. This rates a public inquiry

1 - Testimony from the troops who fired, under oath.
2 - Forensic evidence from the car, including chain of possession of evidence.
3 - Forensic evidence from the dead man's body, and the wounded people, including medical evidence.
4 - Tapes of the cell phone calls.
5 - Records of communications between the Italians and Americans on the entire matter.

All of this has to be under oath, in a public court of inquiry with rules of evidence agreed to by Italians and Americans.

It is possible to get to the bottom of this, but it will never happen, as the sweeping grounds of national security will be used to cover up everything.

[sr_pacifica]

34. The events in Lebanon dominate the news and

this terrible story is becoming less and less newsworthy to the media. This is how this administration remains unaccountable.

[daleo]

46. Too true.

Although a proper inquiry after the killing of an ally's agent ought to be automatic, rather than depending on media pressure.

[DixieSticks]

86. True enough...

...don't trust them.

[wicket]

57. AMEN!

[NYC]

69. Chain of possession of evidence already broken.

The car was "lost". Convenient, isn't it?

However, the autopsy has been done by ANSA (I don't remember what those initials stand for.), and bullet to the temple was the cause of death of Calipari.

I've read so many newspaper articles, so I can't remember which newspaper published the information re autopsy. Sorry.

[eternalburn]

20. What would be your immediate reaction to being shot at.....

...in this situation?

Would you slow down, stop and try to identify yourself, or put the pedal to the metal?

[0007]

21. If the road was that dangerous why didn't the U.S. give their

faithful Italian allies an escort? After all the Americans knew that Ms Sgrena was being released and on her way to the Baghdad airport.

Would any American dignitary receive the same fate?

[NCN007]

81. The Italians didnt ask for one N/T

[ixion]

23. just like it was absurd to conjecture that Iraq had NO WMD

right...absurd, except if you mean in the literal sense of what actually happened. :grr:

[leftchick]

25. Where is the car the US shot up with 500 rounds Scotty?

Oh, they can't find it now??? How fucking convenient!

<snip>

The military contends it was uninformed about the progress of the negotions for her release, and was unaware Sgrena was on her way. But "the Americans and Italians knew about (her) car coming," Scolari says.

The US has the troops first firing warning shots, then shooting into the engine block to stop the vehicle. The Italians say they were hit by hundreds of bullets. The Observer reports up to 400 rounds struck their car "from an armoured vehicle. Rather than calling immediately for assistance for the wounded Italians, the soldiers' first move was to confiscate their weapons and mobile phones and they were prevented from resuming contact with Rome for more than an hour." Sgrena's car, the US claims, is now "lost," and cannot be inspected.)


http://rigorousintuition.blogspot.com/2005/03/benefit-of-dumb.html

[freedom_to_read]

26. Save yourself some time and energy: here's the script

http://www.antiwar.com/whitehurst/?articleid=5096

:(

We are not going to see any justice done, as per usual.

[Zorra]

27. Yeah, Watergate and the whole Iran-Contra gig was absurd, too - right,

Scotty? And our fearless fuhrer and his puppeteers did not lie about the WMD in Iraq, it was just an innocent mistake? And Abu-Gharib never happened?

Yuh...right. The only people in this world that believe that are the deluded masochistic fools that vote republican.

Our filthy, conscienceless, rotten to the core republican mis-leadership would never order engagement in corrupt, illegal activities, would they? How absurd it is for anyone to consider such a thing!

It is very possible that our men in women in uniform did not deliberately target innocent civilians. Maybe they did not know who was in the car.

Maybe they were ordered to shoot at the car on orders that came down from Rice or Wolfowitz, not even knowing who they were shooting at. Soldiers often follow orders without question.

Republicans are all just, like, so totally full of shit. It doesn't matter if they are corrupt or deluded, they are still full of shit. And McClellan is one of the assholes that accepts money to spew their bloodflecked shit all over the American people.

How can these creatures live with themselves? How can one government be comprised of so many sociopaths?

Well, I guess Hitler's government was full of psychos that consciencelessly lied and murdered, too. So there is at least one precedent for the inmates taking over the asylum.

[bullimiami]

28. if the us govt said it than it must not be true

they lie, they lie, they lie and lie and then they lie some more.

its damn sad that my first reaction has to be that I dont trust anything that comes from our government.

[Name removed]

31. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[LibertyorDeath]

36. How about this are you Swallowing this? Your Government wants

you to swallow it, every last bit.

" Sgrena's car, the US claims, is now "lost," and cannot be inspected

http://rigorousintuition.blogspot.com/2005/03/benefit-of-dumb.html

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story2&u=/ap/20050306/ap_on_re_eu/italy_iraq_hostage_reconstruction

That's it open wide America & Swallow " Sgrena's car, the US claims, is now "lost,"

[anarchy1999]

37. Hmmm... Wes Clark on Faux News. Now there is someone to believe

in and give credibility to. Yep, that's the ticket, Wes and Faux.

I'm convinced.

NOT!

[Name removed]

39. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Lerkfish]

41. well, that explains how easily misinformed you appear to be.

listening too much to Faux news has been proven to result in a more ignorant populace.

[Blue to the bone]

45. You think Wes Clark is a liar? n/t

[Lerkfish]

40. If what you say was true..

If the US DIDN"T KNOW....somehow that doesn't explain:

--- why italian planes had already landed to meet them...US had to approve that landing
--- why they made it through one checkpoint (did the checkpoint guards get sudden amnesia after they left the checkpoint and forget who they were and where they were heading?
--- why did they confiscate cellphones and jam cellphone tramsissions in a safe zone after the shooting stopped and they were told who they were?
--- why did the car "disappear"?
--- why did it take 400 rounds to stop a car, but the driver is alive?


frankly, I think you're too willing to believe the administration's spin...weird, considering that NOTHING that comes out of their mouths is EVER proven true.

[LisaL]

42. Well, of course, it makes so much more sense not to pay

abductors, and recover a headless body. Unless, of course, you are the poor person who had been abducted.

[Garbo 2004]

43. Reportedly US military at airport knew, why didn't they tell their ground

units patrolling the airport road and manning the checkpoints?

"On Saturday, a SISMI officer who was also traveling with Calipari was quoted in the Italian media as saying that the car was moving quite slowly and cautiously, and that there was no indication that they were at a checkpoint. The Milan paper Il Corriere della Sera also reported that not only was Sgrena's release known to the Americans, but a U.S. Army colonel was among those waiting for the journalist at Baghdad airport to see her off."
http://www.wpherald.com/storyview.php?StoryID=20050307-102934-3147r

[Griffy]

32. It connects perfectly with Easton Jordans comments.. read more here..

Just a little more than a month after Mr. Jordan "resigned" due to comments that US soldiers targeted journalist in the field we have a journalist in that exact position. Heres a good article connecting some of the dots...

http://www.truthout.org/docs_2005/022405A.shtml

[sr_pacifica]

33. Investigation?

Already we can see how thorough the "investigation" is going to be. The WH is rejecting this possibility so THAT isn't even going to be examined. Don't expect that the troops involved will even be interviewed.

[anarchy1999]

35. Memo to Scottie, "RESIGN", take back your "life", just like Ari did,

he said so himself on Jon Stewart, just walk into Georgei's office and say "BURN OUT"! You are off the hook, you get to walk away and in a year or two you can write a book. Sounds good to me......

[lebkuchen]

47. Be careful, Italy! Orange County Colleges might add you to its hit list

and scrap its international study program with your country. You've produced Michaelangelo and Da Vinci, but Orange County has B-1 Bob Dornan!

[mtnester]

48. From the Honorable Judge Milian...

"I would not believe him if his tongue came notarized."

We better wake up from our slumber...murder is being committed in our name and BLESSED AND PLANNED by our government.

It could have just as easily been one of us, stumbling over a curb during a demonstration.....

There is no sugar coating to the fact that this administration is a pack of liars, murderers, cheats, bigots and general scaliwags.

[spanone]

49. Hey Scott!!!! SHE WAS THERE!

[fooj]

50. Geez Scottie...we know you to be such a pillar of virtue!

We'll hang on your every word! LOL!!!!

[RuleofLaw]

52. Just a comment

Some posters in various threads have raised the issue, that if this was a targeted killing, why didn't the soldiers kill her when they discovered that she was still alive.

The explanation could be rather simple. Perhaps the US unit was told to ambush a vehicle. They shoot at it in the dark, not knowing who is in the car. When they realize who it is, they call for help, since they are not murders but just soldiers following orders, ands they would not agree to shoot at Italians at close range (murder).

The other explanation is, that if she had been killed at close range, the whole "car speeding toward checkpoint" story would be irrelevant.

Lastly, its safe to assume that Italy would demand the return of the bodies. Forensic evidence will establish the angle of the projectiles, and the range.

Besides, apparently the people in the vehicle were on their cell-phones when the shooting started. Imagine if it came out that the people on the other end heard American voices, shooting and then was told that all the passengers are dead?


So the RW talking point (Caller on Mike Malloy show mentioned it) that the proof that she was not a target, is that she was not killed, is ridiculous and meant to divert attention from the real issue: Why IS the us first claiming that it happened at a checkpoint, when evidence shows that the car had cleared all checkpoints and was only 700 meters from the airport?

[bahrbearian]

73. Exactly, Alert ......." Blue to the Bone"

[LynnTheDem]

77. Heh.

Finally! That's a bit of good news. :)

[Kinkistyle]

84. You make a great argument. Soldiers NOT robots.

The soldiers are not some sort of mindless robot army that follows through on orders till the very end. They are ordered to fire on the vehicle. They proceed to. Vehicle stops. There is no return fire. Soldiers enclose upon the vehicle and to their dismay they find out that the passengers were actually Italian agents and a journalist.

Now. Lets say you are one of the soldiers. What do you do? Finish the job and kill them, or call up to command and inform them that you just shot up the wrong car? Yeah, many soldiers might be trained to the point of becoming indifferent to death, but they still maintain a degree of free will and a degree of moral judgment.

[Catfight]

53. I tend to believe the Italian, she has less to lose with the truth. Scotty

has everything to lose with the truth, that's why he lies so often. It's about as absurd as condoning torture, isn't it.

[Generator]

54. That's the problem with war

It's legal killing. It's not like we will ever know the truth about anything that goes on over there.

[chickenscratching]

56. its outrageously absurd!

that as americans we are denied the truth over and over again moustachio scotty pants. stop lying through your teeth and give us some answers!!!!!!
we do not all carry an intelligence/wisdom level of 2---YOU may have charisma level of 20 bush admisistration, (though only observable on this level if you're half-orc or quite a numbskull) but meta-game, we know the real truth. oh we know...

[Damien]

58. lol

i wonder how many DUers get those referances...

I'd be curious...

[chickenscratching]

63. well...

i was wondering if someone would understand what i meant.... :)
thank you for being that someone. :smoke:

[DixieSticks]

87. me too...

meow.

[Cocoa]

59. so the investigation starts with the conclusion

and works backwards from there.

It was an accident, so let's go about spending millions of dollars coming to that finding.

[DoYouEverWonder]

62. Sounds like Scottie

is getting his talking points from Free Republic. Funny, it used to be the other way around.

[Trish1168]

64. Its a matter of credibility.....which side is the PROVEN liar?

Hmmmm, who to believe? Let me think about this.

:think:

I think I'll pick the UNPROVEN liar. After all...She chould be honest!! Thats more than you can say for Rumsfeld's military (I am not blaming the men on the ground... these types of orders are handed down).

And considering that a couple of years ago, the military told all of the independent journalists to stay at particular hotel, and then they fired mortar rounds at that hotel, destroying much of it and killing some....I think there are reasons to doubt their version. They claimed it was to kill a sniper on the roof, but it seems to me that you can do that with a rifle. If you know there are civilians, why do you blow the whole thing up? Most of the independent journalists who were there felt that they were deliberately targeted. I think they're right.

Oh, but we'll blame the fog of war. Yeah....that's the ticket.

[cvoogt]

65. so, they ACCIDENTALLY shot them then?

how is that supposed to make us feel better? I would hope that when our forces shoot, they do some deliberately ... i.e. after much deliberation, not "shoot first, dodge questions later."

[OrangeCountyDemocrat]

78. No, It Was Deliberate! n/t

[ImpeachBush]

66. Not because Scott said it was so ....

There was a frontline episode this past week, probably a repeat, that covered some American Army men in Iraq. These guys traveled those roadways everyday on patrol. They mentioned a number of times in the episode that the road to Baghdad airport was the most dangerous in the world. No new news there. The interesting point in the Frontline story was that the patrols shot first and asked questions later. Several times in the story these armored patrols fired at approaching vehicles ... what decision making tactics did they use?: If the troops flashed lights, honked horns, shot warning shots ... and the approaching vehicle kept coming ... BLAMMY ... the vehicle is history. What I failed to understand is what the car's driver was supposed to do ... from what I saw, the "warning" period took all of 3 or 4 seconds, and a car's driver would have no chance to make a decision about what to do before becoming machine gun bait.

Another interesting point in the episode was when the Americans were fired upon from the street. Three armored vehicles returned the fire ... so many shots it was unbelievable. Then they noticed a taxi all beat to crap and shot up and a dying civilian in the backseat. The army guys started asking, "Who did this? How did this happen? This is terrible!" Well, duh ... all these g.i.'s started firing every which way at anything that moved, and they had to wonder who shot up the taxi?

So, no, I don't think it was a conpspiracy ... but I do think it was scared, young, poorly trained, fire-before-you-get-shot-yourself american G.I.'s PLUS a collosal lack of communication that probably led to this event.

[truth2power]

75. The non-checkpoint checkpoint.

On the News Hour this evening, Margaret Warner interviewed several individuals about this incident. Apparently now the story is that there WAS a checkpoint, but it was one that had been set up minutes before. Warner explained that there are permanent checkpoints and temporary checkpoints, this being one of the latter, set up just minutes before the car approached.

The military spokesperson in the group then described checkpoints as comprising signs in English and arabic, hundreds of yards back, lights, and finally, concertina wire.

WOW! Those guys must've worked fast! Erected all of that, and in a coupla minutes. Presto! Instant checkpoint!

Can you say "tap-dance"?? I knew you could.

[0007]

79. I watched the News Hour also. There were many questions

that I wanted Ms Warner to ask, but didn't.

[truth2power]

80. So many times

when I watch interviews, I know the next question that should be asked to elicit tons more information. But these supposed journalists just let it slide by. Why is it that I can figure out what they should ask, but the Ted Koppels and their ilk, making million$ per year don't have a clue???

Damn! Must be that lib'rul media.

[daleo]

82. To ask the question is to answer it.

As you imply, they get millions for knowing what questions not to ask.

[satya]

89. Who ordered the checkpoint set up and when? Maybe that's the guilty party.

If the U.S. knew she'd been released and then constructed this temporary checkpoint, that looks pretty suspicious...The troops who fired will likely be blamed for doing what they were told to do by their superiors. I doubt that they knew who was in the car, but I'll bet somebody knew.

Edited to add: And my guess is that a "temporary checkpoint" has no wire, lights, signs, etc.--that's code for "unmarked vehicle blocking the road".

[paineinthearse]

83. "That's just absurd," McClellan repeated.

No, Scottie boy, YOU are absurd.

[rocktivity]

88. So we finally have an official statement--It's "absurd?"

...McClellan said the car carrying Italian journalist Giuliana Sgrena was traveling on one of the most dangerous roads in Iraq...He said the airport road "has been a place where suicide car bombers have launched attacks...where regime elements have fired upon coalition forces...Oftentimes, they have to make split second decisions to protect their own security."
It was half a mile from the airport and guarded by previous checkpoints, Scotty. That should mean it's the most FORTIFIED road in Iraq.

Responding to Sgrena's statement that the car may have been deliberately targeted, McClellan said. "It's absurd to make any such suggestion, that our men and women in uniform would deliberately target innocent civilians..."
Sgrena said that the car WAS targeted, you wimp, and spare me the "Why do you hate the troops?" guilt trip. The soldiers would fire if they were told--that's their job. More specifically, they'd certainly fire if they were told that the passengers weren't innocent civilians. Are you arranging for some well-intentioned but inexperienced grunts to take the fall? At any rate, if the goal was to stop the car, shouldn't it have been the front seat passengers who died?

:headbang:
rocknation

[humanriteswritlarge]

90. The whole incident stinks from thebeginning

I don't think anyone in here believed the story from the get-go. I never bleieve what the U.S. press reports nor what the WH claims. We have no free press in this country anymore. Ane those in the WH are murderous liars.