Is Bush Right? (European newspapers-change of heart?)

[rodeodance]

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A14590-2005Mar7.html?referrer=email

Is Bush Right?
President's Critics Reconsider Democracy's Prospects in the Middle East

By Jefferson Morley
washingtonpost.com Staff Writer
Tuesday, March 8, 2005; 6:00 AM

In countries where President George Bush and his policies are deeply unpopular, online commentators are starting to think the unthinkable.

"Could George W. Bush Be Right?" asked Claus Christian Malzahn in the German newsweekly Der Spiegel. Essayist Guy Sorman asked last month in the Paris daily Le Figaro (by subscription), "And If Bush Was Right?" In Canada, anti-war columnist Richard Gwyn of the Toronto Star answered: "It is time to set down in type the most difficult sentence in the English language. That sentence is short and simple. It is this: Bush was right."

The tipping point came last week when Lebanon's pro-Syrian government fell. The international online media, much of which had been critical of Bush during his first term, had to acknowledge democratic developments on the American president's watch. Many commentators also cited free elections in Afghanistan last fall, Palestinian elections in early January followed by the Jan. 30 Iraq elections. Then came local elections in Saudi Arabia and Egyptian President Hosni Mubarak's announcement of constitutional changes allowing his opposition to challenge him electorally.

Given Bush's insistence that the U.S.-led invasion of Iraq would lead to a democratic political order in the Middle East, many Europeans are "somewhat embarrassed" by these developments, Sorman wrote in Le Figaro......

[Teaser]

1. yawn.

This is the best they can do?

[screembloodymurder]

54. Oh yea.

Last week I felt free for the first time since Bush took office.
I was in Canada.
Democracy at the point of a gun is not Democracy.

[LynnTheDem]

2. LOL!!! No bush is not correct.

"Democracy" is not "breaking out" in the mideaast. Civil war might be. But "democracy" certainly is not.

Must be his ratings in the tank...all the rightwingers are scrambling to boost the bush. Good luck.

[madrchsod]

3. much to do about nothing

democracy comes from the will of the people not from the government

[Delphinus]

35. Ooh, ooh!

Yes, you're right!! I've got to remember that! I know it inside, but when I get to talking with others, I forget how to articulate what I know. I hope I can remember these words - short and to the point. Thank you

[Francine Frensky]

58. TIME magazine is hammering this theme this week

charles krut. whatever is yapping about how bush was right, and uses stewart's quote as evidence that the left is wrong and starting to realize it.

I'm almost ready to cancel TIME.

[Media_Lies_Daily]

62. Look up Operation Mockingbird...and specifically look for Time's name.

[Blue_Tires]

4. let's ask the war dead what THEY think! n/t

[Frederik]

5. Right about what?

If memory serves me correctly, the invasion in Iraq was about WMD, right? And Afghanistan was about Osama, right? So what was he right about? Two rigged elections don't make the original reasons for war disappear.

[rooboy]

6. Since when did a power vacuum augur well for democracy? n/t

[blm]

7. Morley's cherry-picking to MAKE Bush sound right. Wait till the Holy Wars

begin in earnest and draw your conclusions, then, Bushmoonies.

[ElectroPrincess]

20. He must also be a part of that cabal that coaches ...

some of the most moronic freepers to call into CSPAN every damn day during Washington Journal. Saying, "Errr, I'm a Dem-O-Crat but now, with all his latest successes in the Middle East, I SEE how * is leading us toward the light!" :bounce:

Like the little mindless freeper clones they repeat the same talking points IN ORDER and almost verbatim: 1) "I'm a Democrat"; 2) "HOWEVER, * has converted me with his grand plan and successes"; 3) Say again with emphasis, "I'm a Democrat BUT ain't * great!"

<Spin, Rinse & Repeat when they call back into CSPAN tomorrow morning.> :puke:

[bluedog]

8. ? for the Post

have you interviewed any foreign newspaper reporters?.yes, they are real reporters.not lap dogs like the US crew..........

[OldLeftieLawyer]

34. I read this crap every morning

Front page "news" from the Washington Post. It's hard to believe they have time to write this nonsense, let alone get it into print, what with all the time they spend on their collective non-journalist knees, kissing White House ass.

Shame on them.

[w4rma]

9. Warmongerers grasping at straws. (nt)

[bvar22]

10. Check their bank accounts....

...for unexplained deposits of large checks from the republican Party.

[ClintonTyree]

11. No, he is not "right"..............

if Syria withdraws from Lebanon the country will return to it's civil war and SOMEONE is going to have to break it up again. Who this time, the US? Will we be any better at it than was Syria? Is the US incapable of assassination to further their objectives? I think, not.

As far as Saudi Arabia, Egypt etc....... those measures add up to nothing more than window dressing for public relations purposes. There has been no real change, they're merely trying to appease the brutal dictator that runs our country.

The mid-east remains a tribal morass that will not completely change for generations, if ever. Feel good words and token gestures at reform will not hold and change the region.

bush and his neo-con pals are under the assumption that this "freedom on the march" crap can take hold and flourish once the seeds are sewn. They're thinking in terms of a few years. We've already seen what their short sighted agenda has produced in Iraq. The country is on the verge of civil war, and if the US was to leave, even within the next ten years, the fledgling Democracy will fold up like an old fan. It's going to need CONSTANT attention and protection for generations.

bush and his pals are very short sighted. They think just because they say something or do something that everyone is going to walk right alongside them and not deny them their due. That may work in Congress, where Democrats from another age kiss his ass and comply with his every whim, but even THAT is changing. A NEW Democratic Party is emerging, and he'd better get ready for a battle or he's going to get knocked right on his ass. And it certainly isn't going to work in countries that bush has no clue of about their history and political desires.

In short, bush thinks every country thinks like Americans and that everything will be a cakewalk for his world domination scheme. No, he's wrong. dead wrong.

[OldLeftieLawyer]

36. We invaded Iraq.

Syria invades Lebanon.

And WE are calling for Syria to back off?

Man, this laughfest of an "administration" gets funnier every day, don't it?

Bastards.

[LynnTheDem]

49. Syria didn't invade Lebanon. Are pundits actually saying they did???

Lebanon ASKED Syria to send peace-keeping troops to help end the civil war. They did so.

Syria isn't "occupying" Lebanon. Unlike the US in Afghanistana nd Iraq, Syria was INVITED.

[Blue to the bone]

12. And if he was right about democratic political order in the ME? n/t

[TheWatcher]

38. And exactly how is that happening again?

Just curious.

Links, resources, facts. You know the drill.

No talking points please.

[TheWatcher]

39. That is assuming of course

You are willing to post beyond one line subject replies.

[Beetwasher]

13. No, The Question That Needs To Be Asked Is: How Much WERE YOU PAID

to ask "Was Bush Right?"?

[DulceDecorum]

16. Beat me to it.

[devinsgram]

22. Yep, I was just going to ask the same thing.

Wonder what the going rate is now for buying them off.

[NNN0LHI]

14. Ask the families of the 1500+ dead soldiers and 100,000+ dead Iraqis...

...if Chimp Boy was right. Lets see what they have to say about this.

Don

[RUMMYisFROSTED]

45. There you go again...

You and your focus groups. (Before this is done, we'll be talking millions. Criminal)

[indepat]

15. Thank God democracy, liberty, and freedom have been brought to Iraq

and Afganistan.

[stopbush]

17. Le Figaro is France's Right Wing newspaper. So, duh! eom

[Frederik]

52. And until recently

owned by the Carlyle group... At present owned by weapons manufacturer Dassault!

[TahitiNut]

18. A pregnancy resulting from a rape does not exonerate the rapist.

Caring for the victim (Iraq) of a rape doesn't mean alliance with the rapist.

Forcing 'democracy' on a nation through military force is the moral equivalent of forcing 'love' on a woman at the point of a gun.

[Duer 157099]

19. Jon Stewart mentioned something like this

a week or so ago, it disgusted me to hear him say it.

My take is that the world sees how a so-called "democracy" can behave in an utterly fascist way and still unabashedly call themselves a democracy -- so why not jump on that bandwagon? It's good PR.

[ElectroPrincess]

24. Maybe Jon recognizes the seemingly inevitable ...

Repukes are "The Borg." Either we accept their propaganda, escape and/or dumb down into sports, reality TV or info-tainment interests, OR risk assimilation.

Yikes! These people (Kool-Aid drinking Right Wing Radicals) seriously creep me out. :scared:

Unfortunately real life people are not like the men in action movies. There's no moral courage (well a few but they've *ALL been neutered) left for anyone who has a ghost of a chance to impeach this criminal Executive Branch.

Me? I'm rededicating to my volunteer work at within our Outreach Program, adding new Dog Training endeavors, and relaxing with cross stitch and classical music instead of stressing out at the corporate media bimbos. Life will be more tolerable. :(

Face it folks, we're (the entire USA populace through the MSM) PRESENTLY being assimilated. Get used to it and mentally/emotionally float so you don't burn out and lose hope.

We must keep faith but there's no use in activism now. We have NO Democratic Representatives with power who either support impeaching The * Administration or withdrawing from Iraq. Just my take. :shrug:

[Barrett808]

29. Juan Cole has a good analysis on the Lebanon situation

...Much of the authoritarianism in the Middle East since 1945 had actually been supported (sometimes imposed) by Washington for Cold War purposes. The good thing about the democratization rhetoric coming out of Washington (which apparently does not apply to Algeria, Tunisia, Jordan, Yemen, Uzbekistan, and other allies against al-Qaeda) is that it encourages the people to believe they have an ally if they take to the streets to end the legacy of authoritarianism.

But Washington will be sorely tested if Islamist crowds gather in Tunis to demand the ouster of Bin Ali. We'll see then how serious the rhetoric about people power really is.

(more)

http://www.juancole.com/2005/03/lebanon-realignment-and-syria-it-is.html

[DemCam]

42. Posted by error

Got this post in the wrong friggin' place. Hate it when that happens. Should be at the bottom where it belongs.

[Bridget Burke]

30. Jon made a different comment last night.

He quoted Bush as claiming that no occupied nation (Lebanon) could be a true democracy. The number of Syrian troops in Lebanon appeared on the bottom of the screen--followed by the number uf US troops in Iraq.

Jon didn't say anything--his expression said it all.

(You forgot to add that Jon is an "enemy of America." Two threads about his "disgusting" comment included the phrase in the title.)

[Jack Rabbit]

21. Post hoc ergo propter hoc

Giving credit to Bush is post hoc reasoning and not even very good post hoc reasoning

The invasion of Iraq has not spurred any drive to democracy in the Middle East, even though Lebanon may emerge from its current crisis as a sovereign state with democratic institutions.

First of all, recent events in Lebanon are not related to events in Iraq. The catalyst for the recent Lebanese demonstration against the presence of Syrian troops on Lebanese soil was the assassination of the former Lebanese Prime Minister. The roots of this conflict go back decades. These events would have been just as likely to have taken place were Saddam Hussein still in power in Baghdad.

Second, the Iraqis, like the Lebanese, have also expressed a desire that foreign troops on their soil leave. The recently held elections in which a majority of the seats in a transitional parliament were won by a slate whose program calls for the US to set a timetable for withdrawal; the slate's program has other features that fly in the face of the purpose of US occupation.

Third, none of this is necessarily a move toward democracy. Indeed, the same Iraqi alliance that calls for the withdrawal of US troops and the repeal of Proconsul Bremer's colonialist decrees also raises concerns about the future of women's rights in Iraq. There's nothing democratic about that.

The anti-Syrian demonstrations in Lebanon and the elections in Iraq do not reflect any democratic movement as much as movements characterized by nationalism. Whatever form of government is to be adopted aside, Iraqis and Lebanese are calling for their national government to have control over their affairs for the benefit of their people without foreign interference.

As for Lebanon, the foundations for a modern democratic state have been there for some time. There is an elected Parliament and Lebanon's press is regarded as one of the most free in the Middle East. Those conditions existed long before Mr. Bush seized power in the US.

[bemildred]

28. Among other things.

It's more along the line of: Bush has been reduced to attacking
former US client states in an effort to justify the Iraq mess,
which has indeed destabilized the region, but not in the intended
way.

(Well said, BTW.)

[Frederik]

53. Well put.

[daleo]

23. Cherry picking a few reports, ignoring the rest.

Also, it is a huge assumption to say Lebanon will be all peachy if Syria pulls out. Resumed civil war, and possible re-invasion by Israel are just as likely in my opinion. Neo-cons always count their chickens before they hatch, though.

[KDLarsen]

25. Don't forget - Der Spiegel was pro-Bush prior to the elections

.. on the healthy background that his unilaterism meant that European troops weren't being killed in Iraq. And that if Bush maintained his power grab, that was most likely to continue.

[neweurope]

26. When I read what Malzahn wrote in Spiegel online I asked myself

at once how much he had been paid. Henry M. Broder is another one who writes for Spiegel online - similar stuff - and who I suspect of being bribed by the Americans. Though Broder is a Likudnik in my eyes so maybe in his case bribery isn't necessary.

In my opinion that's complete BS. That war was fought because allegedly Saddam was threatening the "free world" (which he was not). And not to bring "democracy". And if it HAD been fought to "bring democracy" it would still have been wrong. I cannot FORCE democracy on another country. That's still fighting a war of aggression which is forbidden.

Iraq isn't a democracy yet - so far the country has some a hell of a lot more urgent problems, like how to defend children from being shot up, how to keep hospitals running, water and food provided. Because there is an occupation force in the land that shoots everything that moves. Looking into the future it is much easier to see some kind of mullah rule in Iraq than a western-styled democracy.

As to Lebanon: The Syrians - other than the US in Iraq - had been ASKED to come into the country; they've been saying themselves that they would pull out - even though not all at one time - and to-day there is a great PRO-Syrian demonstration.

Any journalist who writes such crap discredits himself in my eyes.

---------------------

Remember Fallujah

Bush to The Hague!

[TheWatcher]

40. Annother question to ask besides "How much were they paid?"

is "How sternly were they threatened, and with what?"

[neweurope]

50. Very true. It's either one or the other.

----------------------

Remember Fallujah

Bush to The Hague!

[adigal]

27. What do they think about the 500,000 pro-Syrian protestors

today??? I guess the Syrians will just go away with a whimper. Sure.

[Blue to the bone]

32. Yeah, Hezbollah doesn't want any foreign interference in Lebanon...

....unless it's from Syria or Iran...then, that's okay.

[neweurope]

51. Please don't forget that it's their country.

-------------------

Remember Fallujah

Bush to The Hague!

[Media_Lies_Daily]

61. Lebanon is Hezbollah's country....why shouldn't they feel that way?

[TheWatcher]

41. Ahhhh, but that's just a focus group, remember?

[CHIMO]

31. When Bush and France

Agree the first thing that comes to my mind is Haiti.

[DireStrike]

33. It's critical thinking. See, the European papers do it.

Not ours.

[mumon]

37. Saudi Arabia, beacon of democracy and human rights!

Look, it's a good sign the Middle East is evolving.

Even stupid policies can have side benefits that are good.

But, like the US, democracy can be demagogued anywhere else.


Just because they're "democratically elected" doesn't mean they'd make life good for the US.

[DemCam]

43. Was my very question not five minutes ago.

I was even going to tiptoe onto DU and pose that very question. There seems to be all of this rosy news all over in the last week or so about democracy breaking out all over the Middle East.

Is it? Did the brazen bullies rattle their chains so badly that Europe and the Middle East are now going to come aboard our great Democracy train? hat in hand? bowing low to kiss the ring?

This seems to have happened after the Iraqi elections and the events in Lebanon.

It makes me crazy because it goes against so much of what I want to believe about the world...if indeed "might makes right", violence conquers after all, if democracy can be accomplished by force.

[okieinpain]

44. maybe he is right, but the sad thing is he didn't have to invade

iraq to get the same results.

[rodeodance]

46. in the WH world (and Fox, and tweety)--The ENDS justify the MEANS.

[agincourt]

47. Most of these developments,

could have easily happened without a bush presidency. The Iraqi elections were not a secret wish of the bush administration,but rather an expedient reaction, to shore up support in the face of an insurgency. I swear if people in the press digest their food properly, they want to thank GW HeeHaw.

[MrSlayer]

48. I've seen a bunch of this in the news lately.

Comparisons to the "great" Ronald Reagan and whatnot. Can it ever be right when you start illegal wars?

[screembloodymurder]

55. The devil is fighting for souls.

Do not waver.

[NNN0LHI]

56. Perhaps Bush should ask Dictator Musharraf what he thinks about democracy?

They are best of friends and all.

Don

[Cooley Hurd]

57. This sounds a bit like the "Libya folded their WMD programs..."

"...because of US actions in Iraq," meme.

That's akin to me saying "My dog went outside and pooped this morning because of George W Bush's middle east policies."

Oops... my coffee's ready. Thank God for Bush's Iraq invasion - If it weren't for his steady, unswerving leadership, I'd have no coffee!:eyes:

[Binka]

59. Yer Dog Is Smart He Is Making An Analogy

n/t

[Media_Lies_Daily]

60. If anyone is asking in Europe if Herr Busch is right, they're being paid..

...to ask that question.

And if the Washington Post is asking that question, do a google search on Operation Mockingbird and you'll fnd out why.

[Merlin]

63. It is with profound shame and embarrassment that I confess...

... this thought has crossed my mind of late.

But whenever I am tempted to jump into the believer's abyss, the trusted guardians of cynicism and realism hold my impulses safely in check, whispering ceaselessly in my ear "Do not underestimate the tenacity and power of nationalistic anti-authoritarianism."

To which I reply, "Bullshit, those instincts were suppressed for decades."

And the response comes: "Give me a fucking break! You can't eradicate such instincts. And what about the shibboleths? 'You can't impose freedom on others.' Yada Yada."

And I rejoin "This isn't Vietnam, asshole. Get a grip."

Then, more angrily, "Why you faithless old coot! You..."

Suddenly a hand is nudging my shoulder and through the earplug fog I hear Jane's voice saying softly "Dear, it's time to get up."

[robbedvoter]

64. Latest talking point - Judy Dandruff was mouthing too

When they all start quoting the same obscure source, you know it 's yet another coordinated steno session.