Police: Man Broadcasts Toddler's Rape Live Online

[JI7]

<Police say a Cincinnati man raped a 3-year-old girl and broadcast it live on the Internet, according to Cincinnati TV station WLWT.

Paul A. Kraft was arrested Tuesday night and charged with two counts of rape and one count of pandering sexually oriented material involving a minor

Kraft, 31, is being held in the Hamilton County Justice Center. His bond was set Wednesday at $750,000. Kraft faces up to 28 years in prison if convicted.

A tip from the Secret Service to the Regional Electronic and Computer Investigations Unit resulted in Kraft's arrest, according to the Hamilton County Sheriff's Office. Undercover Secret Service agents said they made contact with Kraft in a sex site chat room.

They said Kraft told them they could watch him have sex with a 3-year-old old live on the Internet.>

Paul A.Kraft


http://www.channelcincinnati.com/news/4268222/detail.html

[Ganja Ninja]

1. What a piece of shit! n/t

[lala_rawraw]

149. I am confused

A tip from the "secret service?" Aside from the horrible and vile allegations, can someone explain to me why the SS is providing tips to local author.?

[Name removed]

2. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[agitpropagent9]

17. here we go...

what an idiotic thing to say. bad people are everywhere, and i thought ohio was rigged, anyway. wouldn't that actually make it "blue state values".

[VegasWolf]

54. Well, look at the guy, there's an illiterate pickup truck driving

Republican if I ever saw one! :) :)

[Mike Daniels]

59. So any time someone sees a corn rowed, scruffy bearded black person

in a police photo can they say "there's a base-head, welfare abusing hard core Democrat" and not get reamed out for it?

Pretty much the same thing as you just did....

Evil assumes all shapes, colors, creeds, etc....

[Mugweed]

165. Agreed

I'd love to lump everyone into certain stereotypes and then justify it with the "stereotypes wouldn't exist if they weren't reinforced daily" argument. The world would be much simpler because we'd be able to predict what certain "individuals" were going to do and simply take pre-emptive action to prevent what we knew would occur if given the chance.

Does this sound stupid yet? Fucking crazy assholes with no regard for humanity come in all forms...even in the form of a president.

[Zorra]

170. How can you tell that from a picture?

[Name removed]

19. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[drdtroit]

29. When are we going to learn that

people are just people wherever they may reside on the planet?
Let's leave racism, bigotry and hatred as the property of those who choose to espouse those values!

[QC]

61. It is better to remain silent and be thought a fool...

than to speak up and remove all doubt.

[Media_Lies_Daily]

66. Abusive, sadistic criminals values know no boundaries or so-called....

...state "colors"...they can be found anywhere in the country.

The same principle applies to ignorant posts like yours, they can be generated from any state in the country.

[cally]

153. That's just idiotic

Blue states have evil ones. Let's focus on the evil and not divide us.

[blondeatlast]

168. So I take it Minnesota is pristinely, morally pure?

Get a grip.

Evil doesn't recognize geographic boundaries, only weakness and stupidity.

[slor]

3. They should just..

take him out and shoot him. Sorry, but that is how I think this should be taken care of.

[Burma Jones]

7. Well, After they sodomize him with a cattle prod..........

I'm pure nasty, unforgiving and so RW when it comes to this shit.

[all.of.me]

21. just to maim him, not to kill him

severely injure him as to make his life miserable.

[Burma Jones]

4. Coming Soon - Prison Justice

Filthy Hunk of Shit

[Don Claybrook]

8. 28 years worth of prison justice, to be exact

I wonder if the other prisoners will set up a web cam in the shower room so we can watch this piece of shit get his due every day.

[RPM]

91. why is rape in this context OK?

I thought rape was wrong.

[Don Claybrook]

107. It's wrong. It's extra-judicial punishment.

But realistically, it will probably happen. And realistically, this death penalty opponent will assume that this pig will get what he so richly deserves, and I won't lose much sleep over it.

This isn't to say that I think these conditions should exist in prison, but it's a tacit admission that the conditions do exist and maybe they'll be useful for a change.

I didn't support any of *'s tax cuts, but I still deposited the meager extra funds in my account.

[RPM]

109. extra-judicial punishment = vigilantism

and isnt vigilantism wrong.

seriously - i find my self scratching my head over this because I hope he gets his. But I dont want to live in a society where someone can "give someone his" because they want to - i fear the day the christofascists come beat down my athiest door....

So why is it OK, again?

[Don Claybrook]

137. Why is it OK?

Well, it's really not OK. I really do have liberal credentials, which is why I find myself agreeing with your line of questioning, even though I'm the "target" of that line of questioning.

There are several replies to this thread that say something like, "I'm against the death penalty, but in this case I'd go for it", or words to that effect. I mostly did the same thing, but without giving up my anti-DP stance. I guess I'm trying to convey how horrifying and disgusting a crime like this strikes me. Incarceration doesn't seem to be enough by itself. But I'm not advocating for his death; rather, I'm acquiescing to what will surely happen anyway if he's not protected in prison. And my emotional side nods in grim satisfaction, even if my rational side tells me it's wrong. Does this make me a hypocrite? I don't know, maybe it does. But I won't be losing any sleep over what this guy's future very likely holds.

[RPM]

140. I am right there with you....

... and at some level, thats what is troubling me. My disgust for this man yet my desire to respect the law...

[Tansy_Gold]

195. How I deal with it

I am anti-DP and I'm anti-"extra-judicial punishment" as well.

Dealing with my loathing for this guy's actions and keeping from sliding into what I know intellectually is wrong thinking but what seems to satisfy my thirst for vengeance is easy now -- No matter what happens to this guy, it will not undo what happened to his victim. Since I was not personally affected by what he did, my vengeance is irrelevant and immaterial.

It is better, therefore, to put him away and put him away where he will NOT be subject to extra-judicial punishment that could lead to lawsuits against the state and prison authorities and take away from funds needed to rehabilitate those who are rehabilitable.

"Vengeance is mine, saith the Lord" and since I don't believe in that Lord, I don't believe in vengeance either.

Better to work at preventing these things from happening in the first place than wasting energy hating after the fact.

[Runcible Spoon]

198. "does it make me a hypocrite?"

no it makes you human! I'm really glad to see you make a distinction between your raw visceral emotions and your rational side. Many people, even here at DU, often forget that distinction. Laws should be based on rationality, no vigilantism.

[TX-RAT]

57. Yep, His dance card will be full.

[ProfessorGAC]

85. Oh Yeah. The Guys In Prison Love Child Rapists!

He's gonna be super popular in the big house. Other felons love the short eyes.
The Professor

[CottonBear]

I'm anti-death penalty but I could make an exception for this scum.

Why couldn't they have stopped him if they knew about this in advance. Truly awful. I suppose that his fellow prison inmates will take care of him.

[calico1]

12. I agree. That bothers me, especially

being that this was a little child. Since it was live, why not save the taxpayers money? Just throw him in the general population and let them take care of him.

[ET Awful]

5. Just let him out in general population in the jail, hand around a few

flyers saying what he's accused of and let things run their natural course.

[ozymandius]

25. He will not last thirty minutes before he is rendered

physically incapable of doing this again. Bottom of the food chain in prison is where he is going.

[ET Awful]

30. My point exactly.

There is, despite what some people say, honor among thieves (to use the colliquialism).

This guy is the lowest of the low, and won't last long.

[Arkana]

6. There is no curse in any language that would be strong enough

to condemn this evil, perverted sonovabitch for eternity.

[Teaser]

9. One problem...

this was live, right? So the agents knew he was going to rape some little girl ahead of time? I'm glad they caught this worhtless piece of shit, but damn...was there anyway to stop him quickly?

[tridim]

11. Exactly.. They screwed up big time

by not having agents right outside his door to stop it. They obviously knew who he was and where he lived. They should have stopped it before it started.

[SouthernDem2004]

62. Reread the article. It never states the online rape took place.

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

73. Yes it does

Kraft, 31, Charged With Two Counts Of Rape

UPDATED: 1:06 pm CST March 9, 2005

CINCINNATI -- Police say a Cincinnati man raped a 3-year-old girl and broadcast it live on the Internet, according to Cincinnati TV station WLWT.


Paul A. Kraft


Paul A. Kraft was arrested Tuesday night and charged with two counts of rape and one count of pandering sexually oriented material involving a minor

[SouthernDem2004]

79. Yes, but it never states it took place after the Feds knew about it.

[Heddi]

117. Uh, yes it does

A tip from the Secret Service to the Regional Electronic and Computer Investigations Unit resulted in Kraft's arrest, according to the Hamilton County Sheriff's Office. Undercover Secret Service agents said they made contact with Kraft in a sex site chat room.

They said Kraft told them they could watch him have sex with a 3-year-old old live on the Internet.

[lebkuchen]

10. I hope I sleep tonight

I've got to stop reading about news related to US "culture."

[prolesunited]

13. The way the story is written

it appears the FBI allowed the rape to occur before it was stopped. :wtf:

The made contact, set up a LIVE broadcast and then busted him afterward.

The story uses raped, like it had taken place — not intended to, or was ready to, as accomplished fact.

Did they actually allow the event to take place before taking action so they had a better case?

In any case, this guy is sick slime, but I do have some questions about the cops actions in this as well.

[Colorado Blue]

15. IMO they should go to jail for allowing this to happen. I'm

sorry, I know they wanted to catch the sleaze, but no bust is worth the damage to the child. Allowing it to happen makes them participants - voyeurs even.

OK now I am going to throw up.

[SouthernDem2004]

63. Reread the article. It never states the online rape took place.

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

75. Reread the first sentence

Kraft, 31, Charged With Two Counts Of Rape

UPDATED: 1:06 pm CST March 9, 2005

CINCINNATI -- Police say a Cincinnati man raped a 3-year-old girl and broadcast it live on the Internet, according to Cincinnati TV station WLWT.


Paul A. Kraft


Paul A. Kraft was arrested Tuesday night and charged with two counts of rape and one count of pandering sexually oriented material involving a minor

[SouthernDem2004]

80. That was before the Feds were involved

[Heddi]

118. No, this is what it says

(again)

A tip from the Secret Service to the Regional Electronic and Computer Investigations Unit resulted in Kraft's arrest, according to the Hamilton County Sheriff's Office. Undercover Secret Service agents said they made contact with Kraft in a sex site chat room.

They said Kraft told them they could watch him have sex with a 3-year-old old live on the Internet.

[jdj]

126. maybe he was referring to a subsequent rape to take place.

It's amazing to me there is only one Aileen Wuornos.

he was charged with 2 counts of rape...I don't know how to read that as the same occurence or more than one occurence...

if he was charging then maybe they can bust a bunch of people.

[Heddi]

129. It sounds like they knew about the pending rape

The officer had been in contact with this guy in a chatroom.

The guy told the officer that he (the officer) could watch him (the perp) have sex with a 3-year old LIVE on the internet.

Therefore, they knew the rape was going to happen and didn't stop it.

He DID rape the 3-year old and it WAS broadcast live on the internet.

I don't know what the other rape charge is for, but according to this article, they seem to be talking about knowing about the pending rape of the 3 year old, and then allowing him to rape the 3 year old as the rape was broadcast live on the internet.

VERY very very very very very very bad move on the police's part. I would hope that the officer(s) who KNEW the rape was supposed to happen and LET it happen have charges brought against them.

They could have easily prevented this. Instead, this poor innocent child was ALLOWED To be a victim when she could have easily been saved and spared this torture.

There is *NO* excuse for the police's behaviour

****unless this story was so badly written as to completely misrepresent the facts, the way I described it above is the way this story portrays the events to have happened, and so do other articles written on this that I"ve read today****

[jdj]

135. yes, I've read it about 3 times and it's hard to understand the

sequence of events.

The Secret Service who were apparently monitoring this tipped off the local police unit tasked with sex crimes. I hope that locally people are raising hell. I want badly not to believe that this is what happened, however, I'm not so naive as to believe that this child was free from abuse prior and that this rape was a one or two time thing. I'm sure this man has been abusing her her whole life.

Can you be charged twice for the same crime? I know they can charge you for sexual battery and rape, or different variations of things on the same crime, but it just said two counts of rape, which make me think they have evidence of at least two rapes.

[Heddi]

141. Who knows

I think if they have evidence of past rapes of the same child, they can charge you for each individual time they have proof of. Generally, though, most people who are raped come forward and there's only evidence of the most RECENT rape---but if this guy was sick enough to broadcast this online, there's a good chance he had photos or videos of past rapes of the same child.

So, if they have proof of the one rape (online) and pictures or video or whatever of a past rape, then yes, I think they could charge him TWICE since the crime occured twice that they have proof of.

Look at people who are charged with child porn--they're given one charge for each peice of kiddy porn that is found.

[SouthernDem2004]

142. Each rape is a different charge. For exampe:

If he raped the child 5 different times on five different dates that would be 5 charges. Just like if your neighbor beat you up Monday, Tuesday and then Friday. 3 Assaults, 3 Charges.

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

172. Not true. One can have five charges from a five second piece of film

Each ACT is a different charge. If he touches the child, then performs another act, right there you have TWO counts. If there were numerous occasions one would expect about 20 charges. For being in law enforcement, I am surprised you would say that.

[jayctravis]

188. Well...if the SS were patrolling chat rooms undercover...

this could have happened and have been witnessed before they knew who he was or where to arrest him and they could have been powerless to intervene...seeing this only in web broadcast.

I imagine they then of course brought out the super duper secret magical spy operative things they use and located him. Then they had to set up a formal legal sting operation to get proof so they could then bust in and arrest him.

At least I'm hoping that's how it happened.

[beam me up scottie]

139. Check it again.

The first sentence is now:
"CINCINNATI -- A local man who went on the Internet and offered live video of himself having sex with a 3-year-old girl is behind bars, police say."
Was originally " police say " but no actual quote from police.
It would not be the first time a reporter cared more about coverage than the truth.

[jdj]

120. I am hoping that they contacted him in the chat room after the

fact.

I honestly do not think they would allow this to take place with knowlege of his location. I know they wouldn't. I think they heard about it and contacted him to trace his location and then busted him.

[RebelOne]

20. It probably took them some time to locate

where he lived. Maybe that's why they couldn't stop it.

[prolesunited]

37. I haven't reached a conclusion

But I hope people are asking A LOT of questions and getting some better answers than what appears here.

[LisaL]

99. One would hope so. I can't imagine anyone waiting for this

a$$hole to rape a 3 year old so they can have a better case, so, i really hope they didn't know where or who he was before the rape.

[devilgrrl]

14. Hang, draw and quarter...

eom

[Jazzgirl]

16. I almost puked when I saw this!

I can't wait for him to get in jail. He won't last long! :grr:

[Stand and Fight]

18. I am against the death penalty normally...

However, I would like to see this guy tortured and then executed for his crime. This is inexcusable and is completely deserving of the Texas brand of justice. What a sick fuck! As for the people who watched this and did nothing - String 'em up. That includes the agents in the case and those who thought they were protected by the veil of the Internet. The story is unclear as to rather he actually committed the act however. If he did and they knew, string 'em up as well.

[Atman]

102. You can STILL be against the death penalty...

...and be satisfied that this guy will receive "justice." Don't sell out your principles because you're disgusted. Then you just lower yourself to the republicans level.

This guy will get convicted, and will unlikely make it past year one of his sentence, never mind year 28. Remember, max sec prisons are not the Country Clubs the republicans want you to believe. He will have no friends inside. In fact, he may have to spend the rest of his life in solitary just to be protected from the other inmates. Even then, I'm sure the guards would find ways to "accidentally" allow him to slip into the general population or something.

Raping anyone is wrong, and raping a 3-year-old is about as vile a thing as I can imagine. But state sanctioned murder is still murder. Let "nature" take its' course with this scum.

[Stand and Fight]

128. Yes, let nature take its course.

My NATURE would compel me to see this jerk suffer; however, I do agree with you that state sanctioned murder is wrong either way. But that girl is ruined for life -- he needs to suffer for the rest of his life, and the death penalty would be a relief. So, yeah... Let him live and go to prison to become somebodies little bitch.

[LibertyorDeath]

22. Sick beyond belief.

[NewWaveChick1981]

23. OMG

This made me sick to my stomach to read. What a total scumbag. He's a horrible excuse for a human being (if you can actually call him one).

[NJGeek]

24. Very uncool.

[Career Prole]

26. So how many times was this clown tasered? None?

Why not?

[LisaL]

113. They have to put up a resistance to the arrest for them to be

tasered. Pedophiles are usually cowards, so I doubt he put up a resistance.

[Sequoia]

27. Who was the child?

Where were the parents? There's no mention.

[Blue_Tires]

64. that's my question...

was it his daughter? neice? did some unscrupulous parents 'rent her out?' who lets a toddler within 10 miles of THAT guy???

[LisaL]

110. To protect the identity of the child, probably.

She is a minor and a victim of rape. Her identity can not be revealed.

[WI_DEM]

28. Totally indefensable--lock him up and throw the key away.

[RPM]

31. funny how...

people were disgusted by abu graib, yet want to "sodomize him with a cattleprod" and then "take him out back and shoot him"

:wtf:

[JimmyJazz]

38. people are just trying to express extreme outrage...this is a horrible

horrible crime. It does make me realize that with regard to certain crimes, I am pro-death penalty.

[Burma Jones]

50. If Abu Ghraib was filled with the worst kind of Child Molesters

rather than who knows what sort of plain old everyday Iraqis, or, at worst, POWs, then I would have said more power to the torturers....

[Blue_Roses]

83. exactly

you can't compare this to Abu Ghraib

[NorthernSpy]

69. MOST people would commit truly obscene acts of torture...

... if they believed that they could get away with doing it and that their torturee deserved to suffer.

That is because the average person is evil, and a few (such as the guy arrested for child rape) stand out as being even more evil than average.

The bottom line, however, is that the people here who are fantasizing about torturing the toddler-rapist aren't going to act on their desires, because they know that if they did, they'd be punished. I know that it all seems very much in contradiction of good principles, but please try not to feel too disturbed by the things being said.

[beam me up scottie]

156. That sounds an awful lot like

a guy who once told me that atheists do not rape and murder(among other things) only because of our fear of being caught and punished.
Sorry, I think most people would not commit truly obscene acts of torture if they believed they could get away with it.
I may be a cynic, but I'm not that far gone.

[bloodyjack]

177. Couldn't agree more.

"That is because the average person is evil, and a few (such as the guy arrested for child rape) stand out as being even more evil than average.

"The bottom line, however, is that the people here who are fantasizing about torturing the toddler-rapist aren't going to act on their desires, because they know that if they did, they'd be punished."

I like how you think.

edit: What is the source of the text quoted in your sigline?

[Blue_Roses]

84. that's a pretty sick comment

since you can't possibly begin to compare the two. :grr:

[RPM]

89. bullshit....

someone dragging him out and sodomizing him with a cattleprod is inflicting punishment on a person without the benefit of due process of law and a human rights violation.

that's right in line with abu graib in that its plain wrong.

now if a court were to order such treatment, and on appeal it was not found cruel and unusual, I'd be the first to get the son of a bitch.

but until he is found guilty (and such torture is found not to be in violation of cruel and unusual punishment jurisprudence) inflicting such harm on this disgusting human being would put you right up there with Lyndee England.

Is that where you want to be?

[Blue_Roses]

98. while I see your point.

the two are not one in the same --

[RPM]

108. look past the person who committed the act

... and look at what you want to do to the detainee.

human rights proclamantions and the US constitution don't draw the distinction on the basis of the person being tortured

Think for a sec.
Due process is not qualified by what the person did - it applies to all - even this scumbag.

edited to be nicer - following blue roses' fine lead. :-)

[Blue_Roses]

116. my outrage

is not at you or your post--I agree that due process is necessary, but as a parent with a small child, I am emotionally unable to be rational when I think of this happening to ANY child--and I apologize if I offended you in anyway.

It makes me sick and disgusted to think of what happened at Abu Ghraib as well and I cannot even look at those pictures when they are flashed across the screen, so I understand where there doesn't seem to be much difference in these two crimes--

[cally]

158. Thank you RPM for reminding all of us

about laws and justice. I'm probably on the take em out and hang em side but I admire and respect your posts on this thread. I know you are being belittled, but I respect your opinion and tenacity.

[htuttle]

94. You do know that several children were raped in Abu Ghraib, right?

At least one of the rapes of a young Iraqi boy were caught on an unreleased tape (according to Sy Hersch).

Were those child rapists' actions mitigated by the fact they thought they were doing it on your name (or the US's name)? If that doesn't mitigate their actions, wouldn't you wish the same fate on the torturers and rapists at Abu Ghraib as you would wish on this guy? And don't even get started on the child sex trade that was fostered by US contractors such as DynCorp in Bosnia and Serbia. Pretty much all of them got away free.

You know, this girl might end up getting killed by a drunk driver someday who'd probably get less than 2 years in jail for it if it's their first offense. Is that 'justice', or not? Is 'intent' the important issue here, or 'effect'?

If it's 'intent' that matters, keep in mind that pedophilia is considered a real mental illness by the psychiatric profession. When people call this guy 'sick', they are absolutely right -- he IS sick. He should be locked up.

People who have torture fantasies about anyone, no matter how deserving, need to look inside themselves as well.

[Blue_Roses]

104. yes, and that is disgusting

as well, but this isn't a thread about Abu Ghraib.

[beam me up scottie]

32. 28 YEARS???

That's it?

[CornField]

43. He won't last til probation

Those fellows inside take very good care of child molesters

[bluestateguy]

33. My God

All Americans have the right to a fair and open trial, but if a guilty verdict is returned he should be castrated in a public square without anesthesia.

[RaleighNCDUer]

47. Hey! What's that Marine doing outside uncovered! n/t

[beam me up scottie]

97. Good catch Devil-dog!

nt
edit sp

[DS1]

136. HA! Nice catch, bootcamp must be going to the 'birds'

:D

I see it all the time, it pisses me off

[TOOLZ]

34. Isn't it amazing how much he LOOKS like a guy that would this?

Why is that? If you're a perv fiend, do you pursue that "look"?

28 years, nothing. Life sentence of tossing salads.

[toymachines]

44. oh man, now that is punishment

the man deserves that fate for sure

[gumby]

35. This article is confusing.

Did this creep actually rape a 3 year old, or did he just talk about it on the Internet? Was he charged for what he said he was going to do or what he actually did?

[LisaL]

114. What is confusing?

"Police say a Cincinnati man raped a 3-year-old girl and broadcast it live on the Internet, according to Cincinnati TV station WLWT."
That's the quote from the article. It's clear he raped the girl and broadcast it live on the Internet.

[sniffa]

36. possibLe defense strategies

- she was coming onto me.

- she was dressed provocativeLy.

- when a toddLer says no, she reaLLy means yes.

[Bonhomme Richard]

39. He needs some one on one time with those Chimps that............

got that guy earlier this week.

[TX-RAT]

68. I'd prefer his one on one time be with me.

Can i , huh huh huh, can i, please, pretty please?

[LisaL]

115. They killed those chimps....

But inmates in prison probably won't be much better, once they find out what this guy is in prison for.

[redqueen]

40. He needs to die.

I'm not kidding.

[CatBoreal]

41. Okay, puking over here...

The reason why it took so long was most likely because of getting the warrants involved. They'd have to find a judge to sign off on them.

So, first they'd have to trace this guy's IP adress, find out who he is and where he lives (not sure if they'd have to get that from his ISP - if so that might have involved another warrant), then get the search warrant for his home after proving probable cause.

So, it's twice now that I've been moved to tears this week because of something like this. (this is the first http://tinyurl.com/66wp6)

I hope they don't throw away the key on this guy. I want the guards to leave his cell door open, string streamers and ballons from the ceiling and let the Brutus Ball-slicer have a gay old time with him. Then Penis-eater, then Collin Cut-up, Evan Eviscerator and whomever else is in the mood to play.

Then I want them to post photos on-line.

[quaoar]

164. Not exactly

If the police have good reason to believe that a felony is about to occur and that there is not enough time to secure a warrant, they can intervene without one.

[Mari333]

42. Put him in a room with 20 grandmothers

armed with baseball bats and sharp scissors.
Let them have at it.

[jdj]

127. you forgot the knitting needles.

double fisted!

[AlCzervik]

45. i'm not a violent person by nature but for this piece of filth

i can make an exception.

[Lorien]

46. Vile beyond belief

lock him away for good! Prison inmates will take care of him; child rapists don't last long in many state prisons.

That poor child...what is wrong with some people????!!! :cry:

[MaineDem]

48. I am going to be sick! (nt)

[maxsolomon]

49. i think i grew up near this guy

cincinnati: when you oppress & shame you cause what you fear.

friggin northside dirtball. ok, maybe lower price hill.

[doodadem]

53. Ha! Made me laugh Maxsolomon!

With that lower Price Hill comment.
We lived in Cincinnati for 10 years (east side) before moving to Calif. It got to be this hideous joke, that EVERY other night on the news, there was some report on either deviant sexual behavior locally, or the Cincy cops beating the crap out of some African American, usually for DWB--Driving While Black.
I still have friends back there, and they are all Republicans, but Holy Moly we were glad to escape! I'm sorry, my family is all from the deep South, and I've lived/traveled alot of places, but the most prejudiced I've ever seen was Cincinnati.

[Burma Jones]

51. At Last..........something we and most freeps can agree upon......

Well, except those freeps related to this guy...............

[msanthrope]

52. I think the next rape he will be involved in will be his own....

many, many times....

[Mnemosyne]

55. Has anyone considered

that the use of the internet in this horrendously sickening crime will give the government more ammo as an excuse to try to shut it down??

I am a pacifist, but this makes me want to KILL!!!

It reminds me of right-wing judge from Wisconsin? in the 1980's that gave a lesser sentence to a pedophile because the 5 year old girl "acted seductively". WTF!!!! And a friend's brother living in Nebraska that molests early teen boys at whatever church he attends, got caught by police finally last summer, then only had to serve weekends in jail. He left PA after the one church here found him out and said if he left their kids alone and got "counseling", they wouldn't press charges!!

What a world! Sigh.

[super simian]

56. No punishment harsh enough

Equally as disgusting and degraded as a man who would do this is the degraded and disgusting audience for it on the internet and elsewhere.

What is wrong with people -- and okay let's face it mostly male people -- who can do something like this and get enjoyment out of costing suffering and misery (and in many cases lifelong trauma) to innocent children? I was also raped as a child and have had many years to try to figure this out, but can't. I have tried to think of it as a sickness, but sick people deserve our sympathy and child rapists don't, so the metaphor breaks down for me right there.

Last night I was watching a Shirley Temple movie, now there's a place to go for encoded pedophilia (hate that word, by the way). How many times did Shirley (in her short-short dresses with her frilly underpants showing) play the loving housewife to her loving Daddy? Yuck!

And when the film industry pays attention to sexual abuse, it is about 95% of the time from the point of view of the innocent man who is victimized by an evil child who makes up lies. By the same token, if sexual harassment is dealt with, it is 95% of the time from the angle of the man who is victimized by an evil woman who makes up lies. The other 5% (from the point of view of the child or woman who is sexually abused: representing the vast majority of the real victims) are made-for TV movies that no one ever sees.

I don't believe in the death penalty, either, but I don't believe there is any punishment harsh enough for people who rape and sexually abuse children.

:nuke:

[manly]

58. rapist

If he proves to be guilty, kill him. There's no reason for such a creature to live.

[Dogmudgeon]

60. Pedo Frenzy

Four or five of these stories are posted at DU in the course of an average week, and the result is always the same: Pedo Frenzy. A hundred posts of incandescent outrage with a mix of torture fantasies, prison rape jokes, and calls for slow, agonizing death.

Of course people are venting their outrage, but how many of them realize that they are giving in to being conditioned to hate? Stories of sex crimes and child-rape are routinely used by dictators to whip up violence against the enemies of the regime. In Argentina (IIRC) during the right-wing coup, a political prisoner would be publically accused of pedophilia or the murder of a child, and would be left tied up in a field while dozens of enraged citizens would be set loose on the "criminal". And a huge number of lynchings in the USA took place over imagined rapes of white women and children by black men.

We may want to consider that many soldiers who have been charged with abuse (e.g, Abu Ghraib, as noted) were outraged over the 9-11-01 attacks.

Disgust for pedophilia and sexual predators is understandable, but giving in to hatred, no matter how well-justified, is madness itself. This is why we have a justice system -- it doesn't only protect the accused, it protects society. The human beast lives just under the hides of each of us, and woe will betide our world if we decide to indulge it. We've done it before, and our history is written in the blood we've drawn.

--p!

[htuttle]

77. Ya know, I've noticed the same thing myself

And yes, it does remind me of Two Minutes Hate right out of Orwell's 1984.

It's the posts that describe in various levels of detail how they'd like to torture a person like this that are sort of disturbing.

It's like some people have a lot of hatred pent up in them, and when a story about a incident like this comes along, they let loose because they have an acceptable target.

[NorthernSpy]

87. yeah, but they aren't going to DO anything

It's the posts that describe in various levels of detail how they'd like to torture a person like this that are sort of disturbing.

But actually doing things like that would expose the doer to the threat of serious punishment by the state. The things that these people are fantasizing about are things that they would not really dare to do -- not as long as doing such things entailed significant personal risk.

And they know that. This very knowledge makes them express themselves all the more vehemently to make up for it, I suspect.

[jdj]

125. but we can't break that taboo of keeping up that facade of

civilized adult despite the desperation of children all around us. Anytime you come near to that, no matter the circumstances, the pooh-poohers come out of the woodwork.

'We're in the grown-up world now. We left childhood behind and children with it. We must keep up this act and if any evidence gets in the way of that we deny it. We must not have emotional reactions to things. That is a sin and makes us appear uncivilized, and then we may lose some status.'

or whatever.

Jesus would kick this man's ass. He who would hurt a child should have a stone tied around his neck and thrown in the ocean (paraphrase).

[Cocoa]

86. we need a "Freak show" forum at DU

where all kinds of depravity can be paraded before us, like on a Jerry Springer-style show, for us to boo and hiss at.

[frictionlessO]

88. Far and away the most intelligent thing written on this thread.

First off just because LE says he is guilty does not in fact mean it (though in this case I happen to believe it).

Second off, despite everyones desire to torture this probable POS I'd be willing to bet that a large chunk of the posters here were but a few short weeks ago saying torture is wrong under any circumstances.

The only difference between this guy and what our government fully endorsed in Abu Ghraib is age and a live internet connection...oh and perhaps colour of skin.

Torturing this man will not solve the disease and do nothing but make peoples venegful feelings somewhat assuaged. One less peado off the streets and no closer to solving the problem at all.

Go ahead and hate me for this, but do not mistake this post for a defense of anything other than the very same principles most of you espouse daily here.

Also I understand the absolute cold bloody minded rage that overtakes most of you in these situations very well, I have empathy for your feelings, but I will not give in to my most base emotions to appease anyone and leave behind the values I hold most dear for even a second.

[jdj]

121. malarkey

you are confusing emotion with action.

Hatred is a justifiable emotion in response to child abuse, and it probably drives alot of prosecutors.

I am so very tired of people making accusations that the right is using stories about this or that middle eastern country or this or that act of pedophilia to manipulate people. Most people here are at least of average intelligence, smart enough to discern or further inquire as to the truth of these stories. Furthermore, this was broadcast LIVE so hopefully the feds can bust everyone that witnessed this as well, bust the whole group of people.

I tend to think that people who pour calumney on stories like this live in a fantasy candyland as far as their awareness about how often this goes on. My personal emotional reaction to this story is irrevelant, and the only people for whom "hatred" is an all powerful bogeyman are fundies whom I don't respect anyway. I don't want to know anyone who doesn't have a a reaction of hatred and extreme disgust to something like this, and it is healthy to be constantly reminded just how often that this stuff is going on, so we won't be so likely to look away when confronted with evidence of it in our own lives.

[SheepyMcSheepster]

174. i agree

becoming emotional and imagining the horrible things that should be done to the man as "payback" seems to overlook or give an excuse for the real reasons for these situations. Abuse begets abuse, the abused often become the abuser. i would bet that this man probably had a pretty screwed up childhood.

the lack of respect this man showed for human life is sickening, but don't let his emotion driven actions drive your emotions.

i agree with pidwidgeon, hate is not a good thing. however, i completely understand why many react very emotionally towards this, it is a horrific situation.

[fleabert]

191. wonderful post. thank you.

the best test of a societies ability to give out humane punishment is a microscope on societies worst. This is repulsive, utterly unforgivable, but should he die? should the state torture him? should the government or it's citizens condone rape of any kind?

I don't think so. Our court system, however flawed, can work for us. We must support it and not give in to the deep emotional response a horrific crime like this evokes.

I wish him time...alone. I wish him therapy, so he can fully accept and realize what he has done, with all the guilt and devastation that would come with that. I wish him shame and humiliation for his actions, but I do not want to be shamed by my own actions in response to his.

A visceral response to this crime is natural, but must be measured by compassion, even for a person who would do the worst. This man is a person, as much as I hate to admit it, and at some point in time was abandoned. Either literally or figuratively, he was destroyed, I feel sorry for him.

I feel worse for the child/children he has/may have hurt, but that doesn't mean I stop treating him like a human being.

[kwyjibo]

65. People are in for life over marijuana and this guy gets 28 years????

This is the most disgusting thing I've heard in a long time. I hate seeing headlines like this one. This guy should be in prison forever.

[Media_Lies_Daily]

71. Hopefully, it will be the worst 28 years that any convict ever had to...

...spend in prison. Interesting to note that child-abusers are singled out for "special treatment" by the rest of the prison population.

My only hope is that they keep him alive for the full 28 years.

[hector459]

93. People are in for life for marijuana and Bush is President

Just to add to the obscenity of our judicial system and our political system.

[Zerex71]

67. Immediate death penalty.

[onenote]

96. should we bother with a trial?

I think what this guy is accused of doing is the foulest of the foul and the vilest of the vile. And if, after giving him due process, he's found guilty, he should be given the maximum penalty available.

That said, I find a rather disturbing tone of vigilanteism in some of the posts here. If you think (as I do) that Saddam is entitled to due process, a fair trial, etc etc., then you should feel the same way about this guy. We can differ about whether we support or oppose the death penalty (or whether the issue has more shades of gray than just a for/against answer), but I'd hope that even as we express our outrage about the horrific crime that this guy is accused of committing, that we don't lose sight of the larger principle of a society of laws. While I can understand why this guy's actions incite a "mob" mentality, once unleashed, who knows who the mob goes after next....

onenote

[Daphne08]

70. Only 28 years? He should be... I can't say it.

[Dulcinea]

72. No punishment is too heinous for this creature.

Normally I don't advocate torture, but I'll make an exception in this case. Just turn him loose in the general prison population & let things happen as they may.

What kind of sicko would watch this anyway? That thought is horrifying.

I have a 3-year-old girl. Enough said.

[LibertyLover]

74. Sick evil person

My daughter will be three in June. When I read what this miserable waster of resources did I got viscerally ill. I'm at work and all I want to do is go home and hug my little girl tightly. Generally I am opposed to the death penalty, but if it is proven in court that this piece of scum actually raped a three year old child and I were on the jury, I would have no problem voting it as his sentence. Of course, given the regard the general prison population holds child molesters and rapists in, the chances are middling low that he would be alive much past the first appeal of the sentence.

[livinginphotographs]

76. I'm against the death penalty in all cases, even this one...

But I have no problem throwing this sick scumbag into general population and letting the prisoners do their thing on him. Maybe then he'll know what it feels like to be powerless and abused.

"People" like this are lower than any creature on this planet, and are probably the reason humans have such a bad reputation.

[CoffeeCat]

78. As sickening as it is...I can understand why the police allowed...

...the crime to happen.

It's just so sick to fathom this even happening to that little girl. It's hard to imagine police watching this happen.

However, chances are this man had raped this little girl, and probably other children, untold times.

If the crime hadn't happened, they would have been forced to charge him with lesser crimes. Maybe he's get an "intent to" prosecution, and I can't imaging an "intent to" sentence being more than a couple of years. Furthermore, it would be more difficult to prove the case without direct videotape evidence of it. That videotape leaves no room for doubt, no room for copping pleas. That perp is busted.

I know this is just horrible. When you think of what this little girl endured, it's almost unbearable. However, she is free to heal now.

Speaking as a survivor---what I wouldn't give to have my perpetrators outted on videotape. I'd give anything. This little girl will be rescued. She won't have to endure this terror anymore. There's videotape proof, so she'll be believed and she'll have access to therapists and experts who will help her thrive. She won't have to grow up being molested. She won't grow into an adult who sits in fear, wondering if she should tell--feeling as if no one would believe her. And God forbid--if she happens to repress some of the trauma to survive--she won't have to listen to the False Memory brigade tell her that none of it happened and that she's a product of bad therapists.

This little girl is free now.

I only wish that a group of police officers were able to do the same for myself, and so many survivors.

This is a despicable story--with a very bright, silver lining around it.

[Shakespeare]

90. That is completely illogical.

Extend that analogy to a homicide situation. Would it be OK if the police allowed someone to commit murder, just so they wouldn't have to charge him with a "lesser" crime?

If they did know about it in advance and didn't attempt to stop it, then they are partly responsible for what happened to that little girl.

"This little girl is free now."

That's one of the most messed-up things I've ever seen posted at DU.

[LisaL]

103. Exactly. That post made me sick.

You don't wait for a grown man to rape a little girl so you can charge him with rape.

[jdj]

152. If you've watched "Cops" you know there is a sickeing element

of voyeurism to surveillance.

It repulsed me each time that they would set up prostitutes in hotel rooms and wait till the woman was partially or almost completely disrobed before busting in on her and the john.

I can't stand those stings.

[CoffeeCat]

122. I am assuming...

...with this case, that the police had very little time to react.

Maybe I assumed incorrectly, but my sense was that the perpetrator offered to do these horrible things--then the police simply could do more than watch these awful crimes.

In no way am I suggesting that there was an offer from the perp--then the police sat around for three days waiting for this man to harm the little girl--then they allowed this to happen.

I probably didn't articulate myself very well--if that is what you thought I was saying.

My sense was that the police were forced to bear witness to these events--and in the end--it's helpful to the victim that the police have such concrete evidence.

That's all I was saying.

Also--I do believe that little girl is free now. You said, "That's one of the most messed-up things I've ever seen posted at DU." Wouldn't you agree that this little girl is free from the clutches of this sick abuser? That's all I was saying.

I'm sorry if I offended anyone. I understand this is a very insidious crime and that emotions are running high. However, I'm certainly not advocating that the police set up rapes or murders or any other crime--to bust people. I was only saying that the police--were forced to see the crime--because they had very little time to stop it. I probably didn't communicate that point very well.

However, I do stand by my feelings of relief for this little girl--and also the notion that she is finally free of her perp--who is going to prison for a long time.

[Shakespeare]

162. And you've justified the price she had to pay for that "freedom."

And THAT is what is messed up.

[LisaL]

101. Excuse me, but 3 year old raped by a grown man can sustain

injuries incompatible with life. No one should be waiting for the guy to rape a 3 year old so they can have a better case, no one.
:puke:

[Media_Lies_Daily]

154. On the other hand, the underground to which some police officers....

...belong, now have a bootleg tape to circulate among their fellow perverts.

Additionally, IMHO, there was absolutely NO need for this little girl to have to suffer anything at the hands of this monster. The intent to molest the little girl should have been pretty evident long before the act took place...and that would have gotten him the same penalties.

I'm sorry that you've gone through this yourself, but I have a very hard time understanding, despite your explanation, why you would wish that on any other little girl.

[CoffeeCat]

159. I must have really botched my response...

...if you read my post and somehow thought that I wished sexual abuse on a little girl.

The very last thing in the world that I would do--is "wish" sexual abuse on that little girl. Reading that you could even THINK that I would say that--is devastating to me.

Like I said, I must have really miscommunicated--if you actually believe that I would wish sexual abuse on a little girl.

I can't really undo what I said--or the way I miscommunicated. However, I can emphatically state that I would never wish sexual abuse on anyone--ever.

:(

[Shakespeare]

161. You did something worse--you JUSTIFIED it.

And that's just sick. Period.

[CoffeeCat]

179. No I didn't...

I didn't JUSTIFY that man raping that little girl.

There's no justification for anyone ever harming a child.

I am relieved for this little girl--that the perpetrator was caught and that he will go to prison. I assume the police couldn't stop it; that the perp said what he was going to do--and all the police could do is witness the crimes--as they attempted to uncover his IP address and his identity.

I could never justify anyone being sexually abused.

I volunteer with sexual abuse victims--helping them recover from crimes like this.

If I've given the impression that any act like this is JUSTIFIED (as you said), then I've clearly failed in the clarity dept.

I agree with your wording, "and that's just sick. Period," regarding anyone justifying these revolting, sick crimes. However, I didn't justify these acts.

Never.

[Shakespeare]

180. You justified the police allowing it to happen.

Sorry, but you did. And there is no justification for it.

[Acryliccalico]

81. Those who have mental illness and power over the

weakest always subject the weakest to the most unspeakable of SINS! Power and control no no boundaries!!! :puke: :kick:

[Blue_Roses]

82. what a worthless piece of shit

words cannot express the outrage I feel for this scumbag at this time:nuke:

I hope that he never sees the light of day...
Now I have to go throw up:puke:

[theHandpuppet]

92. Meanwhile, elsewhere in God fearin', gun-totin', GOP votin' Cincinnati...

I just checked the Cincinnati Enquirer to see if there was any additional information on this case, but their report didn't offer much. I did, however, note two other stories on the Enquirer's front page concerning child abuse (see below). Yeppers, nothing like those good old family values in that notoriously Republican stronghold of Cincinnati! There's also a story on a four year old shot by a 7 year old brother who was playing with one of the family guns.

http://news.enquirer.com/apps/pbcs.dll/frontpage

Wednesday, March 9, 2005

Father charged with breaking daughter's leg

By Jane Prendergast
Enquirer staff writer



ST. BERNARD - A father was arrested at the police station here Tuesday night, accused of breaking his 8-month-old daughter's leg because she wouldn't stop crying.

James Spencer, 19, of the 4900 block of Chalet Drive, was charged with felonious assault. The arrest report filed by St. Bernard police says Spencer admitted to officers that, on Feb. 22, he "momentarily lost his temper'' after trying to comfort Shawnjai Spencer, grabbed her left leg, squeezed and twisted it. His action, the report said, resulted in a displacement fracture in the left femur.

More....

Three priests suspended

By Dan Horn
Enquirer staff writer


The Archdiocese of Cincinnati suspended three priests today because of accusations of sexual abuse involving children.

Church officials said the decision to suspend the priests - Michael Paraniuk, Stanley Doerger and David Vincent - came after an independent tribunal awarded compensation payments earlier this week to their accusers.

More....

[phrenzy]

95. Surprised @ The DU Blood Lust

Do NOT pull a freep and interpret this as me defending this person but...

Calm down.

How we punish / wish ill on this person is not about HIM it is about OUR standards as human beings, not HIS.

in my world, the important thing is that he never be allowed to do this again.

Lock him up in a cell for the rest of his life and treat him humanely. That's no less than we would do for an animal. That way, we as a society maintain our integrity while removing him from society.

Why does he have to be 'raped by inmates' or 'taken out and shot'? Suddenly we are in the 'eye for an eye' business?

I understand that people are just 'venting' but it is transparent hypocrisy coming from DU.

The guy is twisted and a great danger to society. The important thing is to remove him. Nothing else.

[DS1]

106. How is it hypocrisy? Where has DU ever stated a position on

the death penalty, and why do you assume being liberal automatically means being against it?

[phrenzy]

111. I know not everyone is anti-death penalty...

But, it's mainly the messages about "I normally don't support the death penalty, BUT...."

Are the pro-death penalty people now seriously saying that crimes short of MURDER should be punishable by death?

[Kenneth ken]

119. thank you

I too am appalled at the eye-and-a-lung-and-an-arm-and-a-leg for an eye level of vitriol posted on this thread. As well as the implications that it is just fine that we have violence and rape in our prisons, and so 'prison justice' will be fitting in this case.

The crime as described is certainly worthy of evoking such emotions, but for so many here to abandon the principles they supposedly embrace as liberals is simply abhorent to me.

If the crime did occur, a calm mind must simply concede that it is so vile that justice is impossible, and the best that can be done is to remove this perpetrator from society forever so as to eliminate the possibility of it recurring.

Life without possibility of parole is the closest to justice a civil society can get in regard to crimes such as the one described in the OP.

[phrenzy]

124. EGG-ZACTLY

You hit it on the head. Life w/o Parole is the closest to justice we can get while still maintaining our dignity as a society IMO. Even for this act.

I think in terms of crimes like this people focus too much on the perpetrator in terms of exacting revenge. We SHOULD be focused on not meeting depraved people like this with their own methods.

I am NOT saying - "Let's just tell him not to do it again", in fact, I think the 28 year sentence is far too low. I don't think this person should be allowed back in to society ever again. But, I am saying we shouldn't be trying to use 'prison justice' as a proxy for the death penalty. I see many people here saying that shit.

Your desire to see this person suffer is only a reflection of your lack of humanity. Why not spend your energy figuring out how to best help the victim in this case?


"It's so easy to laugh, it's so easy to hate - it takes strength to be gentle and kind" - Morrissey

[jdj]

133. give me a break.

Sorry if I can't drum up compassion for a scum that raped a child live over the internet. Imagine that you are watching that rape right now rather than reading this post. If you don't feel extreme fury and revulsion then God help you. I am way more offended by statements like yours than people venting about such a sick abomination on an internet forum. In case you didn't get it, he actually DID this, it's not even a question of innocent til proven guilty.

He has probably RUINED this child's life. She will have PTSD, she will have emotional problemns HER ENTIRE LIFE, she will be pre-disposed to self-mutiliation, to chemical dependence, to multiple personality disorder, to borderline personality disorder, to a host of other psychological and emotional "maladjustments" because of this rape that happened at a time before she was even old enough to comprehend or absorb the reality of what was done to her, and even to suicide. And the fact that this asshole felt bold enough to do this over the internet suggests this crap has been going on for a very very long time, possibly her entire life.

How in the hell is it that you have blocked out any identification with the VICTIM in this story and are focused exclusively on us not hurting the feewing of this monster???

I'll give you a little clue. Failure to see or acknowlege child abuse right in front of you is a sign of denial, which many times indicates prior experience. I won't go any further than that, but perhaps you should examine why your focus is so skewed, and you can't seem to cope with people having an appropriate EMOTIONAL reaction to the victimization of this child.

[onenote]

144. see post #96

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=102&topic_id=1296994&mesg_id=1297339&page=

[jdj]

150. an immediate emotional reaction is not a mob.

I repeat: THERE IS NO MOB.

I am looking a a computer screen. No mob anywhere near it, under it, or behind it.

It is in EXTREMELY poor taste to lecture people having an appropriate emotional response to the victimization of a child on irrelevant topics like the validity of the death penalty. That is not the issue here. Let the saner people on this board have their justifiable emotions of outrage and disgust. I have seen more than my share of innappropriate reactions to knowlege or suspicion of child abuse, and I can tell you, this is much more desirable. For those in OH near the crime scene can tell us when a mob forms and let us know if people venting on DU had anything to do with formation of such mob. So far...nothing.

[Kenneth ken]

151. it's ALWAYS a question of innocent until proven guilty

police DO on occasion lie. media on occasion DO lie. At this point neither you nor I can be more than 99.9999% certain of his guilt, unless you were in the room at the time; I know I wasn't.

To feel the emotions of outrage and hate expressed on this thread is normal and healthy. To voice such emotions is somewhat more dangerous, and less healthy for a civil society. A society that would rejoice at inflicting as punishment some the ideas expressed here is not a civil society.

[jdj]

155. Baloney.

I see nothing wrong with people VOICING their outrage and disgust,and the truth is that children victimized thusly need as part of their heeling to have the outrage of their victimization mirrored back to them from a trusted adult before they can attempt to heal from this.

And one more thing, I guaran-damn-tee you as sure as I'm breathing that this monster was raped as a child and that no one EVER mirrored to him the reality of his violation, or was able to validate for him the seriousness of what happened to him. This has been shown to be THE factor that determines whether or not children who are victimized this way will be able to function as emotionally competent adults in society or will be at risk of developing the repetition compulsion this man is displaying to deal with the psychological abyss of their own abuse.

So don't lecture me, homey, about how people should repress their emotions. For all the children out there on the receiving end of repressed emotions (like this 3 year old) you should instead question why the appropriate expression of emotion makes you so damn uncomfortable, and how in the hell you find yourself on the side of this perp vs. the justifiably outraged.

[onenote]

166. so there is no emotional response that goes over the line?

I for one am emotionally outraged at what this guy is accused of doing and if the case against him is proven I think he should have the book thrown at him and I agree that its critical that this 3 year old be helped not only through love and support but through the clear conveyance of the message that she has been victimized by a monster and that the monster is going to be dealt with.

I don't see how that puts me on "the side of the perp" and I don't think it makes the emotional response of the folks (maybe not enough to be a mob, someone else can draw that line) yelling "Bunghole him" somehow a healthier response.

onenote

[Kenneth ken]

171. I don't find myself "on the side of this perp"

I find myself on the side of civil society, truth, and opposed to vigilatism, mob rule and unchecked hatred.

Let him be judged fairly in open court, and if guilty, punished to the extent possible. Unfortunately, if the story is true, the most he can get is 28 years in prison, when life without parole would be more appropriate.

I do think about the child, and know that true justice is impossible in this case. No punishment, however horrendous can undo the horror the child experienced.

[phrenzy]

157. Did you even READ my post?

Who in the hell said anything about worrying about the perpetrators "feewings"?

My focus is on how we as a society deal with the least worthy among us. I guess you would like to have him tortured for sport in public. Forgive me if that's not the reaction I give in to and indulge in when reading about things like this.

For me it is about - HELPING THE VICTIM and REMOVING THE THREAT. Period.

I have no problem 'venting' - but when I seriously see fellow DUers spouting this kind of shit, it disappoints me. I always hope we are the ones who stay above this crap and focus on SOLUTIONS to problems.

I just think we should try to aspire to higher ideals and codes of behavior.

It's a GIVEN that this guy is a fucking monster! Why do we need the mental masturbation of dreaming about this persons torture and execution?

Save that for Ashlee Simpson, Avril Lavigne and Paris Hilton.

[jdj]

163. Let me give you some advice.

If you are ever in the guardianship of a child who has been abused or raped...and you are told this by the child...please, I beg of you, have an emotional reaction IN FRONT OF THAT CHILD. Don't scare them, but show them your anger, , make it clear to that child how ANGRY you are about it, mirror to them that they have been VIOLATED, so that they can allow themselves to feel their own feelings of violation. Because otherwise, they won't, and then 20 years later there will be another child rapist or crackhead or suicide.

Another thing you pseudo-Buddhas don't seem to get is that if you feel something, you FEEL it. So acting like you don't feel this way is the true hypocrisy, not expression of the feelings.

I'm really detecting some sickness with regard to feelings on this thread, in that, well, if you express anger, outrage or disgust, the world will blow up, your head will pop off, you will be destroyed. Where do people learn such sickness...(like I don't know).

You can express feelings without doing illegal behavior like vigilante-ism. Did you know that, that there is a distinction between expression of emotion and behavior that physically harms another. Probably if the scum knew that he wouldn't have been compelled to rape the child, like I always say, hookers are relatively cheap, and he is acting out something here.

I always tend to take the side of the child on threads like this, which is an unforgivable offense to some. Primers for those who wish to understand this are "Thou Shalt Not Be Aware" and "For Your Own Good" by German psychoanalyst Alice Miller.

[eek MD]

145. Thank you...

What this guy did is indefensible.

I would hope that most of the people who are advocating torture are saying such things simply because the crime was so heinous that they don't want to sound "soft".

If he's convicted, i say lock him up and throw away the key. Life without parole. (28 years is definitely too weak of a sentence for such a crime). Besides, i'd say a lifetime of having to think about your crime is much worse than killing him and putting him out of his misery. Just my opinion.

[truebrit71]

100. OMIGOD!!!

What a frickin' scumbag P.O.S.

One can only hope that he is put in general population once convicted.... :grr:

[DS1]

105. Death. eom

[lastknowngood]

112. Pop a cap in the back of his head and kick him in the ditch and

let the buzzards have him, and of course do it live on the internet just so everyone understands.

[Ilsa]

123. I wish Jesus had an Uzi. And would use it on scum like this guy. n/t

[RPM]

134. alas, jesus probably would not use the uzi

i am sure he'd first invite anyone without sin to cast the first round.

with only him left to shoot, i still doubt he would.

[OldLeftieLawyer]

130. Wow!

I had to look twice, and thrice, to make sure I was really at democraticunderground.com. I was, and what I see here makes me very sad and very pessimistic about the future of those who hold themselves out to be Democrats.

You would condemn someone when you don't even know if the story is true?

You would condemn someone because of his mug shot (let me tell you that, in almost thirty years of practicing law, I've never seen anyone, including some beautiful women, look good in a mug shot)?

You would wish horrors upon someone without even knowing if he's guilty of the alleged crime?

You are experts in what goes on inside penitentiaries? (I'll wager all you "short eyes" tough-talkers would pee yourselves at the first locked wall you'd encounter in a real prison. You do sound like people who watch too much television, though.)

You believe what police say?

How long must you live in this world, and how much more must you see before you learn that police lie, the press lies, half-baked stories are only fodder for half-informed mongerers of hate and anger, and that you show the ugliest, worst parts of yourselves - albeit the human parts, those which you share with the freepers you so repeatedly claim to detest - and all because of something you've been told, without any knowledge that it's true, that a crime took place, or that we are, in this country, guaranteed the presumption of innocence?

You would deprive someone of even a moment of doubt because you are so certain, given his looks, given his state of residence, and given your own need to punish?

Deliver me and my loved ones from people like you - not all of you, of course - there are posters here who showed human doubt and compassion and held fast to principles of decency and law.

I really thought people who posted here were better than what I've just seen.

I hate that you've proven me wrong.

[beam me up scottie]

148. The freepers will be proud of

DU today. They recognize their own.

[beam me up scottie]

131. Update:

http://www.channelcincinnati.com/news/4267719/detail.html

"A woman who lived with Kraft said she has had five children with him, ages 6 to infant.

She said social services arrived to take the children Wednesday morning, but refused to say why.

RECI is a task force of sheriff's deputies and Cincinnati police officers."

[phrenzy]

160. DID this happen?

From the article:

"Police said they were able to stop the broadcast before it occurred."

So, WAS there a rape and he just didn't broadcast it? Or did he just say he was going to do it?

If he was just some sick-o engaging in this kind of stuff - take the kids away for sure, but i dunno about 28 years unless it is established that he did something like this. If he did - he should get LIFE.

[blondeatlast]

182. My take is that the rape had occurred.. but they could prevent

the broadcast.

I posted links to 2 other reports downthread that seem to indicate the same.

I can't call this one with the info at hand, that's for sure.

[LisaL]

184. Now, the second article makes more sense.

Looks like he offered the video of himself raping the girl in a sexual chat room. Police then arrived, found the video and arrested him. I sure am glad they didn't wait around for him to rape the girl to arrest him.
Looks like the rape had already occurred by the time police have found out about it (according to the second article).

[GoddessOfGuinness]

132. I wonder if he was raped as a toddler...

My first reaction to reading the headline was tears for the child.
As I waited for the thread to load, I thought I'd like to hurt the guy myself.
When I first saw his photo, I felt rage and hatred.

But oddly enough, when I looked into his eyes, I felt pity; because he looks like someone who is spiritually and emotionally dead. I wondered what happened to him to make him that way. What pain lies unexpressed behind that cold gaze? Did he himself suffer the abuse that he was ready to inflict?

The majority of those who abuse were victims themselves at one point in their lives. Fortunately, most people who are abused do not become abusers.

I'm not excusing it...He should be locked away for good to keep him from hurting children. But the statistics make it easy to draw a clear conclusion: Some children are too scarred by their experience to escape the desire to treat others as they were treated. If only we had a clue who would turn out to be an abuser. If only we could catch them, and give them the care they need before it's too late.

[6000eliot]

138. Good Lord! Who would watch such a thing?

Except the SS and the FBI that is. Why are the media blaming this on the Internet? Children were abused before the net, you know.

[beam me up scottie]

143. So that Big Brother can

start monitoring all of the internet.

[6000eliot]

146. Exactly

They use the potential for child abuse as an excuse.

[LisaL]

186. Who would watch such a thing-pedophiles.

[paineinthearse]

147. A lovely couple of accused child rapists

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=104&topic_id=3221249

http://wowktv.com/story.cfm?func=viewstory&storyid=1319

Teacher Sex Case Shocks Braxton County
Posted 3/4/2005 05:00 PM

[Nashyra]

167. The article I read said that they were able to catch the guy

before it was broadcast, I can only pray that they caught him before it happened because it was supposed to be live. A prayer for the child, she will need many in the years to come. The scum is not worth the time for words. I for one hope that all the energy of deservedly angry emotion towards this piece of scum be used towards prayer or positive thoughts for the child. This one will get what none of us could even imagine.

[onager]

181. Hamilton County? Be wary, be VERY wary.

Hamilton County, OH, is the place that prosecuted a museum director for a Robert Mapplethorpe exhibit.

It's the place where that noted moralist Charles Keating spent many years on a personal jihad to jail Larry Flynt.

The positions of Sheriff and District Attorney seem to have been occupied for years by a whole parade of far-right loons who are absolutely OBSESSED with pornography.

The story may be just as evil as it appears on first look, but I'm immediately suspicious when I see "Hamilton County" as the location of any story like this.

[Megahurtz]

169. HANG 'EM HIGH!

by his private parts and then whack it all off and let him fall on his head (or maybe his face, ugly sucker)
Then send him to the other inmates for treatment.

Sorry, NO SYMPATHY WHATSOEVER for this dirtbag.:nopity:eom.

[blondeatlast]

173. Another account, just for reference...

The sequence of events is very confusing indeed.

http://www.wcpo.com/news/2005/local/03/09/onlinesex.html

A Winton Terrace man is behind bars, accused of having sex with a three-year-old girl and offering to broadcast it live on the internet.

Federal investigators arrested 31-year-old Paul Kraft Tuesday night following a tip and search of his home in the 4000 block of Winneste Avenue.

Investigators say Kraft offered an undercover officer live, online video of the rape.

[blondeatlast]

175. Yet another source--sequence is a bit clearer in this story:

http://news.enquirer.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20050309/NEWS01/503100302

The investigation started Tuesday when a Hamilton County Sheriff's detective who works with the department's computer crime unit got information from the U.S. Secret Service in Miami that Kraft was "offering live video via the internet of him participating in sexual conduct with a 3-year-old female,'' according to a statement from the sheriff's office.

With that information, Det. Rick Sweeney got a search warrant for Kraft's house and computer. Officials searched the house late Tuesday. They did not release what they found. Officers also did not disclose the relationship between Kraft and the girl.

It seems to me that the rape had already occurred by this account; the use of the word "live" is what is so confusing.

[LisaL]

185. Yea, use of the word "live" makes it confusing, unless he was going

to rape her again and broadcast that live.

[quaoar]

176. This case shows why there is a place for the death penalty

The death penalty should be used in a few rare cases where a crime so outrages society that the maximum penalty should be inflicted -- not because it would deter future similar acts, because it doesn't -- but to maintain society's confidence that the judicial system will mete out punishment commensurate with the offense.

Otherwise, people begin to lose faith in the judicial system. The reason for having a judicial system to begin with is to prevent people from taking the law into their own hands. People give up the impulse to settle their own scores when they have faith that the judicial system will handle it fairly and justly.

Society has deemed that there are some crimes that are so awful that the offender must be executed. That is evident by the responses to this thread, even from people who are normally anti-death penalty.

[blondeatlast]

178. I'll be satisfied with the justice he'll receive in the big house.

What better way for him to learn empathy for his tiny victim?

[blondeatlast]

183. It's down to this: What is indicated by "live video?"

It appears the tape already existed according to what I've read, so how can it be "live?"

Is this the terminology of the AJs or the slimeball, sicko lowlife?

I do care that justice is arrived at through the proper channels, but I also want to see this scum understand what even the idea of this act means to an innocent little girl.

[LisaL]

187. He could have had it on tape and then offer to do it again live.

[Gin]

189. I want to watch "HIM"being raped in jail by "Big John" or whoever

wants his cowardly ass....on the internet...LIVE....now that would be justice.

[B Calm]

190. Is there away we can find out how he's registered to vote?

[Catchawave]

192. This is LBN worthy?

Just trying to understand the rules here, and was surprised tabloidy type 'breaking news' was ok. :::scratching head:::

:toast: to Dan Rather

[B Calm]

194. yes it is!

[Catchawave]

197. Um, okay :)

Whatever that's worth...snark.

[truthpusher]

199. No it isn't!

[smiley_glad_hands]

193. Any bets that he is a REPUBLICAN?

They are all perverted like this anyway.

[truthpusher]

196. What's the point of posting this?

I try to draw the line with certain posts, and this story, to me, has no value beyond sensationalism. I said a prayer for the child and the child's family. Is that why you posted the story? I just don't understand.

[MrSlayer]

200. I recommend the Marcellus Wallace treatment for this scumbag.

Go to work on the Holmes here with a pair of pliers and a blowtorch. There is nothing worse than what was perpetrated by this subhuman piece of shit and he should be made to pay with blood and pain until he expires. Barbarians deserve to be treated barbarically.