Lab fireball 'may be black hole'

[Minstrel Boy]

Lab fireball 'may be black hole'

BBC, 17 March, 2005

A fireball created in a US particle accelerator has the characteristics of a black hole, a physicist has said.

It was generated at the Relativistic Heavy Ion Collider (RHIC) in New York, US, which smashes beams of gold nuclei together at near light speeds.

...

The Brown researcher thinks the particles are disappearing into the fireball's core and reappearing as thermal radiation, just as matter is thought to fall into a black hole and come out as "Hawking" radiation.

However, even if the ball of plasma is a black hole, it is not thought to pose a threat. At these energies and distances, gravity is not the dominant force in a black hole.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/science/nature/4357613.stm

[dweller]

1. NOT.THOUGHT.TO.POSE.A.THREAT. ???

damn, that's reassuring.


dp

[Teaser]

8. small black holes evaporate

very quickly.

[alittlelark]

36. That was my first reaction as well.

I'm reminded of some old sci-fi regarding similar occurrances... all was not well.

[bigmonkey]

2. At least it doesn't last very long.

Whatever it is, it lasts for only a fraction of a second, according to another article I read on it. Whew!

[Occulus]

10. Fraction? LOL!

Ten million billion billionths of a second.

Whew. Now that's a New York minute!

[NYC Liberal]

43. Isn't that 10 million seconds?

(10 million * 1 billion) * 0.000000001 sec. = 10,000,000 seconds

:P

[jayfish]

3. That Is Some Scary Shit.

If we don't destroy ourselves, is faster than light speed travel a possibility?

Jay

[tinrobot]

9. Not really...

But we might be able to take a shortcut.

[Occulus]

11. It's interesting, even Einstein's calculations don't say

that space itself can't in theory travel faster than light. That was my understanding, anyway...

And doesn't gravity have no speed as well? Isn't the effect of gravity, it's 'speed', if you will, in effect instantaneous?

[Dookus]

15. My (admittedly limited) understanding is that

the speed of gravity is the speed of light.

http://www.newscientist.com/article.ns?id=dn3232

[Toots]

32. So someone jumping out of an airplane will reach the speed of light??????

There is a maximum velocity that can be obtained though I can't recall what that figure is. It is quite small though something like 120 mph or so... certainly not the speed of light though.

[stevedeshazer]

35. For one earth mass plus air resistance, yes

It's called "terminal velocity".

[moggie]

38. Was that a joke?

The space-time distortion of gravity propagates at the speed of light. So, for example, if the sun were somehow to instantaneously disappear, Earth would continue in its orbit for about 8 minutes: it would "notice" the loss of gravity the same moment it "noticed" the loss of light. The terminal velocity of a body falling in atmosphere is about atmospheric drag, nothing to do with the propagation of gravity.

[TroglodyteScholar]

48. I don't think Dookus was quite right...

...but I don't think we're talking about gravity's acceleration, but how quickly gravity takes hold on something...the time it takes to begin accelerating.

I don't know, but seems to me it would be instantaneous or immeasurably small.

[Old and In the Way]

55. don't think so

isn't gravity defined as a mass dropping in a vacuum at a speed of 32 ft per second/sec? Didn't Einstein say the speed of light is a constant that nothing can attain, but can come close in theory?

[hootinholler]

69. No, gravity is the attraction of mass to mass

per sec per sec is an acceleration (change in velocity) measurement not a speed (velocity) measurement which would be only one per sec.

Long time ago I was taught the effect of gravity is instantaneous. I'm not sure what the current thoughts are.

The effect of gravity (acceleration force) is proportional to the masses of the objects involved and inversly proportional to distance squared. If I wasn't so lazy I'd go dig up the Newtonian formulas. Newton devised calculus to handle the math involved measuring the gravitational effects of bodies.

-Hoot

[Occulus]

71. The impression I got was that space ITSELF can do so, but

I don't have the slightest idea how one might prove that.

When I mentioned gravity, I was thinking along the lines of, "suppose I spawned a massive body in space. Another body is x distance away. How much time passes until body B is affected by the gravity of body A?"

I don't think that question has been answered yet by science, since we can't "spawn" a massive body and measure the effect its gravity has on surrounding space. I don't think it's been determined exactly where mass comes from in the first place!

I could be wrong about all this, so someone please clue me in if I am.

[mn9driver]

72. Gravity Waves: Observations match the theory

They propagate at or near the speed of light. Here's a link that talks about it in language I can understand:

http://archive.ncsa.uiuc.edu/Cyberia/NumRel/GravWaves.html

Cool stuff.

[daleo]

44. I think inflationary models say expansion can be >c

But no useful message could come out of it, so the relativistic basis of causality is not affected.

[tridim]

4. If it's safe..

Someone should stick their head in and see what's on the other "side".

[Clark2008]

5. Can we get Bush to volunteer? n/t

[zann725]

19. As long as he takes the 2004 Election Results with him!

And the Inauguration. And...and...

[Lisa]

49. I don't know -- what happens when one black hole meets another?

Bush's intellect + lab-manufactured singularity .... I'm going to look for a hiding place now.

[Jamastiene]

24. ROFLMAO

[okieinpain]

33. yeah, that they should do.

[DBoon]

6. So that's what happened to the Bill of RIghts

it was the victim of a lab experiment in black holes.

[HeeBGBz]

7. Black holes suck

Great. We're probably all gonna die now.

Or maybe an unexpected visit to the Alpha quadrant.

[Occulus]

12. I want controlled wormholes.

Like on Stargate SG1 and Stargate Atlantis. :silly:

[pokercat999]

13. Black hole? I thought

that is a place where this administration was pouring our middle class tax dollars. Or was that a rat hole or a S*it hole or a rabbit hole as in Alice in Bushland?

[Wilms]

14. Must. Nominate. n/t

[Jack_DeLeon]

16. So how long till we can weaponize this?

Cause you know its going to happen.

[Jamastiene]

23. Of course.

They probably got most of their funding to research this just for that purpose to begin with...

[gordianot]

29. Weaponize is in the realm of possibility the "Quantum Bomb".

See this discussion: http://www.abovetopsecret.com/forum/thread26286/pg1

and here: http://www.pureenergysystems.com/news/2004/08/30/6900039_DarkMatters/

excerpt:

Recently the British science news journal "New Scientist" revealed that the American military is pursuing new types of exotic bombs - including a new class of isomeric gamma ray weapons. Unlike conventional atomic and hydrogen bombs, the new weapons would trigger the release of energy by absorbing radiation, and respond by re-emitting a far more powerful radiation. In this new category of gamma-ray weapons, a nuclear isomer absorbs x-rays and re-emits higher frequency gamma rays. The emitted gamma radiation has been reported to release 60 times the energy of the x-rays that trigger the effect.

Don't you just love it when atomic and hydrogen bombs are referred to as "conventional"?

[ashmanonar]

42. "gamma-ray weapons"

so we all turn into the incredible hulk? COOOOL!

[gordianot]

51. Find the right nuclear isomer and you could be the hulk.

Then again they just might blink out the Universe or alter reality like in Quantum Leap.

That would teach those terrorist a good lesson.

[ashmanonar]

70. indeed!

it's like bush made a challenge to Osama: i've seen a sigline pic with this on it, "OSama! i will destroy america before you!"

sounds about right.

[Baclava]

17. A fireball ain't shit

I did the same thing in my microwave once...gravity was affected too, it made me drop things...

[vSmith]

18. Maybe, or consider this:

One could ask:

How small would we have to compress these nuclei to make a black hole?

G = 1.19 x 10-31 GeV-1 cm3 s-2.
c = 3.0 10^10 cm / s
M = 4x10^4 GeV

So we would have to squish it all into a radius of 5.29x10^-48 cm to make a black hole.

The size of a proton is 1x10-15cm, a gold nucleus starts off at being ~7x10-15cm. If we perfectly collide the 2 nuclei, we can not squish them any smaller than that. So we are numerous orders of magnitude away.

In the case of real Black Holes (from Stars), consider the Sun.

Sun Mass = 1.989 x 10^33 g.

You would need to squeeze all that mass within 3 km in order for light not to be able to escape.

[Misunderestimator]

27. That's exactly what I was gonna post...

nah.... not really :D ... Welcome to DU, vSmith. :hi:

[DireStrike]

30. Sounded ridiculous to me, good to see the calculations

Thermal radiation = hawking radiation? I'd like to see what kinda shoes the scientists were wearing to leap to that conclusion.

The radiation emitted from black holes either flows from tons of matter swirling in at incredible speeds, or from spontaneously generated particles that split up and would normally annihilate each other - but one of them falls in and the other flies off as (I think) hawking radiation. Even if we did create a tiny black hole, it is not capable of generating either form of radiation... provided my understanding is correct.

[gordianot]

31. Find a source of X-Rays "atomic explosion" to give off gamma radiation.

The black hole would not have to last very long and you get a better bomb.

An old acquaintance I met as teenager in the 1960's got questioned (short time) circa 1940's for speculating about "Atomic Bomb" in a science fiction story (Robert Heinlein). This time the speculation is much more common but who knows or will admit what the wizards are cooking up?

[Jose Diablo]

47. I thought the smallest anything could possibly be

was, what is the Plank length 10^-33? Anything shorter than that could not become a 'real' particle because what makes matter is energy like 'strings' that are plank length vibrating at some harmonic according to the energy level. Side note would mean, whatever it is that is vibrating, would need a minimum of 6 strings and 4 nodes to make the smallest elementary particle with a length of each edge being the plank length, at least in 3d space. But all this is hypothetical.

I would question anything 'real' proposed to be smaller than a plank length.

[TroglodyteScholar]

50. Say, I bet you studied art history in school, right?

Welcome to DU. Thanks for your informative post.....

[Frederik]

64. Thanks!

That's reassuring... I hope. Black holes don't grow, do they?

[Robeson]

20. Thanks for posting...

...:thumbsup:

[xchrom]

21. ok -- they can stop doing that now.

that qualifies as ''scaring the horses''.

[Jamastiene]

25. They'll continue to do it

AND they'll say you are crazy if you say that. You have to say it is blasphemous or against God to get them to stop doing something hideous nowadays. Honestly. It works every time. Stem cell research is seen as hideous simply because someone said it was blasphemous and against God. Now, no cures for diseases will be found that way. MOAB (Mother of all bombs) was created to fight the Muslim "threat". Therefore, it is "godly" and good.

???

Moral of the story. Cures for diseases evil and bad. Bombs and technology that can be used to make more sophisticated ways to kill people moral and good.

Don't ask me to explain the logic. I, personally, don't understand it. It's just how things work nowadays...

[FreeCajun]

53. Ever read "Guns, Germs, and Steel"?

Our being the vectors of deadly diseases is probably one of the things that contriubuted to the current supremacy of the large city and of the city state and by extension, the nation state. The amount of breeding ground for bacteria and viruses around us in a city environment makes our mere presence deadly to people without the level of resistance to these diseases. More disease good, means more dead enemies. More bombs good, means more dead enemies. Of course, this begs the question of the morality of attacking a group of people who are technologically less well-equipped and who have done nothing to provoke us... Who else has a sawbuck on Jr being abused as a child and taking that same scenario out on the whole world?

[Frederik]

65. Can't we convince

the fundies that this kind of activity qualifies as black magic?

[DebJ]

22. could they please repeat a larger version of this in Crawford?

[MGKrebs]

26. Now if we could just entangle two black holes,

maybe when we put something in one, it will come out the other.

Maybe.

[Cessna Invesco Palin]

28. Awesome.

There are so many horrifically insulting and funny ways to interperet your post... Excellent job.

[bobthedrummer]

34. When I first started using a computer in 2001 there was a story about

some Norwegian scientists that had produced small black holes in their lab. All I can recall is that was on BBC sometime in the Spring or early Summer. I wish I would have saved that link.

No doubt small black holes are being replicated.

[lumberjack_jeff]

37. "do not be alarmed..."

Official government sources indicate that this was a simple, ordinary black hole formation. "Don't be silly, the universe is full of them. If they were such a danger, why did God make so many of them?"

The official also stressed that the public should not read anything into the code-name for the project: "operation RaptureTaxi"

:)

[Frederik]

66. LOL

I guess... :nuke: :-)

[ananda]

39. playing god

I've read that a lab-created black hole could result in the destruction of this universe and the creation of a new one.

Imagine: how did this one come about? Someone messing about in a lab...

DODODODO (twilight zone theme music)


Sue

[Liberty Belle]

40. How do we send the neocons into the black hole?

[gordianot]

41. That is what they emerged from.

[durablend]

67. I don't trust that they wouldn't find some way back

[skip fox]

45. Boy do I feel better!!! I was afraid that nanotechnology

would do us in (self-replicating, as _Scientific American_ specualted, and turning the earth and all existing things thereon and therein into "gray goo"). Now, while they're creating black holes in the lab, those tiny machines will at least give them competition. (And that's what drives capitlism, right?)

[daleo]

46. "The Ethics of Human Extinction" by John Leslie

A book that addresses this issue quite extensively.

[gordianot]

52. Maybe somewhere in the Universe there is a species that has survived.

They should strongly be considering the desireablity of human infestation playing with Physics they do not understand.

Such as in the "Day the Earth Stood Still".

[DearAbby]

54. Can't invent new and cheap energy sources but they can create Black

holes in search of a bigger and better weapon....:::sigh::

[Silverhair]

73. Cheaper energy HAS been invented.

It is called Thermal Depolyermizaton

http://www.changingworldtech.com./index.asp

http://forums.biodieselnow.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=829

It has been written about in both Discover and Scientific American. Both of those are genuine reputable science magazines. The first plant is up and running in Carthage, MO. It is a small scale plant but is producing 500 barrels of oil per day.

[dbt]

56. I MUST object to this thread on the grounds that

1. It will make us all look like kooks and (gasp!) Conspiracy Theorists in the eyes of those who support our Dear Leader.

2. It COULD lead to more discussions of (booga! booga!) CHEMTRAILS!

3. We certainly wouldn't want either of these outcomes, now would we?

:evilgrin:

[AngryWhiteLiberal]

57. Hmmm...maybe this is an example of pure research that need not go further.

Ripping apart the fabric of space doesn't sound like a very good idea to me. At some point, the quest for knowledge must yield when the quest starts to threaten our very existence...

JB

[Silverhair]

63. I wonder is someone said the same thing about bring home FIRE??? NT

[Buns_of_Fire]

58. But will Ronco come out with a home version?

Kids! You, too, can have your own Relativistic Heavy Ion Collider Just Like The One Dad Uses! Create your own black holes! It's fun!

(Not recommended for children under five or seriously deranged Presidents. Your mileage may vary. We are not responsible for disappearances of pets, bullies, or major metropolitan areas.)

[rukkyg]

59. A black hole

A black hole is just a normal piece of matter that's so dense that light can't escape the surface. If it's friggin amazingly small, it has a friggin amazingly small mass, and therefore will have the same gravitational effect on its surroundings as a toaster. That's why they say that gravity is not the dominant force.

And I'm not sure, but considering that the particles were traveling at near light speeds, as soon as they turn off the particle accelerator, the particles would stop going so fast, and would stop being a "black hole" shortly thereafter.

All this talk of "boy is this dangerous" is silly.


Black hole is a pop term, by the way. It's called a quantum singularity.

[sleipnir]

60. "They call it Ice-9...."

"See the cat, see the cradle"


More prophetic words could not be spoken.

[sattahipdeep]

61. "Disaster Scenarios"

John Marburger, Director
Brookhaven National Laboratory
October 6, 1999

Three different kinds of "disaster" scenarios have been discussed
in connection with high energy particle collisions:

A. Creation of a black hole that would "eat" ordinary matter.
B. Initiation of a transition to a new more stable universe.
C. Formation of a "strangelet" that would convert ordinary matter to a new form.

http://www.phys.utk.edu/rhip/Articles/RHICNews/BNL_rhicreport.html

[biftonnorton]

62. Shhhh! Don't Leak This To The Conservative Christians!

If it ain't in the bible, it ain't nothing but theory, and must be... of... Satan!

[MGKrebs]

68. Man, the teenagers of the future are gonna have so much fun!

We had to shoot spitballs. They're gonna be able to shoot min-black holes. It will probably sound real cool too, ripping spacetime as it flies across the classroom.

I mean, lasers are like SO last generation.

Hell, the next iPod will probably use a black hole for it's storage medium.