Analysis points to election `corruption'

[swag]

http://www.ohio.com/mld/ohio/news/11284237.htm

(reg req)

Group says chance of exit polls being so wrong in '04 vote is one-in-959,000

By Stephen Dyer
Beacon Journal staff writer


There's a one-in-959,000 chance that exit polls could have been so wrong in predicting the outcome of the 2004 presidential election, according to a statistical analysis released Thursday.
. . .
The explanation for the discrepancy that was offered by the exit polling firm -- that Kerry voters were more likely to participate in the exit polling -- is an ``implausible theory,'' according to the report issued Thursday by US Count Votes, a group that claims it's made up of about two dozen statisticians.
. . .
The conclusion drew a yawn from Ohio election officials, who repeated that the discrepancy issue was settled when the polling firms Edison Media Research and Mitofsky International disavowed its polls because Kerry voters were more likely to answer exit polls -- the theory Thursday's report deemed ``implausible.''

``What are you going to do except laugh at it?'' said Carlo LoParo, spokesman for Ohio Secretary of State J. Kenneth Blackwell, who's responsible for administering Ohio's elections and is a Republican candidate for governor. ``We're not particularly interested in (the report's findings). We wish them luck, but hope they find something more interesting to do.''
. . .

``These (Bush) voters have been much maligned by outside political forces who didn't like the way they voted,'' he said. ``The weather's turning nice. There are more interesting things to do than beat a dead horse.''

[bpilgrim]

1. it's ALL in your HEADS! GET OVER IT! That's why they HATE us!!!

:evilgrin:


http://images.globalfreepress.com

peace

[Vitruvius]

54. Link that does NOT require registration:

http://www.commondreams.org/headlines05/0401-06.htm

[skylarmae]

2. What ARE we going to do about this?

It's already been five months since the election and that leaves only 1 year and 7 months till the 2006 cycle vote. We have to do something...

[Selteri]

3. Well, you have three options

Grassroots campaigning

Leave

Do it the Republican way and start filing lawsuits demanding an investigation.

[0007]

14. I think we should investigate the investigations.

We just received the 'Intelligent Report' on what the world has known for eighteen months. Actually even before the U.S. invaded Iraq two years ago the truth was transparent.

[Griffy]

27. 4.. hack the machines in our favor by millions.. so the nation will see..

..if they don't change the paperless, hackable machines, I hope someone will hack the system and make the numbers off by millions, so American can see how it was done. Of course, Id rather see a hack proof system and don't encourge lawbreaking, but I do encourge citizens to find ways to alert other americans to crimes being committed, like the 3 stole elections we have already endured. So many dems are still in denial,its up to people like us to inform them.. and word is spreading, look at AAR's growth in just 1 year!

[burn the bush]

38. you know, now that you say that, if the machines aren't changed

I'll bet that there will be so many people hacking into the next election that it will have to be voided. I'll bet there will be hundreds of hackers trying to hack in there. They could give us 80 million more votes than the entire population of the US. That should convince people that the machines are a big problem.

[lumberjack_jeff]

44. Voiding the next election is not necessarily a good thing...

do that and we're stuck with the crooks we have for the forseeable future.

If the Republicans have built a hackable election infrastructure on purpose, then that has become the new rule book. Perhaps we should use that book.

Hacking solely to make a point is so... hacker-ish. Once our guys are in office, they can act to fix the situation.

[Griffy]

50. ah.. but they wont.. it is ONLY public awareness of the problem..

that will lead to a solution.. look at civil rights.. it wasn't that suddenly things got worse for blacks in the south.. it was suddenly America SAW it, on TV.. and believed it was a problem, and that it was not right! So I say, that only once we wake up as a nation to what happened on Nov2, will we get it fixed. Now if Conyers and others can find a smoking gun, or we turn a media source around (economic pressure should be used on MSM) that will actually investigate... great, but if we go into '06 with paperless systems still in place... we need to expose it, just helping our guy win wont solve the problem! Oh.. and it wouldn't leave them in charge.. rest assured we would have another election months later!

So I beg everyone on DU.. talk to friends and family.. work on the doubts they have.. the BIG LIE is designed to be easy to deny... how many here even have thought.. well... maybe bush did get those votes.. maybe it was just Ohio.. and then we review the facts and know the truth! It is our duty to spread this truth!

[burn the bush]

57. I didn't necessarily mean it would be a good thing, but if nothing else

stops the vote rigging, then I hope they do it.

[Mountainman]

4. The idea that the exit polls were wrong the last two presidential

elections keeps going around and around in my head. I just can't accept it. I'm 58 and in every election I've lived through before 2000 the exit polls were always a predictor of how the election would come out.


I believe in my heart that the 2000, 2002 and 2004 elections were stolen. What pisses me off is that there are people who took part in the mechanics of it that know and there are people who know people who took part and yet their silence is deafening!

Why can't we infiltrate the rights's system? How can they be so impenetrable?

The other thing that pisses me off is that I believe it will happen again in 2006 and 2008. We seem to be impotent in doing anything about it. We can't rely on our elected officials to do anything about it. It has to be handled as a criminal action. Evidence must be gathered and charges filed.

The most important thing that must change is that the person in charge of the elections of a state must not be a part of one of the parties.

Both Blackwell and Cruella in FL were part of the repub campaign. How does one expect them to be impartial? It makes no sense to me that this isn't shouted from the mountain tops.

So much of what has gone wrong since 2000 doesn't matter to the common man/woman because of the apathy created by the dumbing down of the country.

The incredible lies on the wingnut radio about Terri Schiavo that go as just another opinion are a case in point.

I swear that we must get control of the message soon or we have no chance of having fair elections again. As long as people don't care we can run the best candidates in the world and lose.

People have to be made aware that the elections are rigged and they have to want to do something about it.

[Selteri]

5. Exactly, they are following Fascist Doctrine

with hate radio and controlling the media.

[Evergreen Emerald]

6. Every predictor that has historically been accurate

said that Kerry was going to win. Diebold helped the criminals take over our country. And they are destroying it.

So...the criminals will not do anything about it--just look at Blackwell's arrogant response. What Do we do about it?

[never_get_over_it]

7. And the big mystery is

why oh why did Kerry not fight this?

[unblock]

11. you can't fight directly without PROOF

if he can't PROVE it, then he would just get reamed a la 'sore/loserman'.

if he had witnesses and paper trails and phone recordings and whatever, then he sure as hell would have fought it.

but the evidence has to come first.

[never_get_over_it]

13. Sorry not buying that

Kerry gave in WAY too easily for something WAY too important - truthfully I think he did it so he can run in '08 - he can run all he wants but he'll never get my vote. By not questioning this at all or very weakly he gave the repunks a talking point when Barbara Boxer brought up a challenge - even the candidate doesn't think anything went wrong....THANKS alot John Kerry.

[ooglymoogly]

19. i'll second that

[Carolab]

58. I'll third that.

He promised that every vote would be counted, remember?

[unblock]

32. yes, well, look where it got al gore.

kerry knows, probably far better than you and i, the exact nature of the machine he is up against. and he knows that, while contesting an election does energize the core party faithful, it also, given banana republican control of the media, alienates the middle and seriously energizes the opposition.

with compelling proof (not just statistics) maybe he could have made his case and won, or at least undermined shrub's legitimacy. but he didn't have it.


beyond that, i think it's overly harsh for one mistake to cost kerry your vote. great, now kerry in the same category is bush as someone who will never get your vote. i think it's great to get all wonderfully dramatic and indignant to throw out that ultimate political bomb of refusing to vote for someone whenever they make a mistake or disappoint, but at the end of the day, it's suicidal politics. every winning candidate has to form a coalition and can never keep every supporter happy every time.

so even if you think this one call was a huge mistake, please remember that kerry was and is a great democrat and a great candidate and would have, and may yet, make a great president.

[never_get_over_it]

37. I already voted for Kerry once

when he disappointed me and that is a huge understatement - he voted for the Iraq War Resolution - I believe he did that because he was running for President - so I did not support him in the primaries and I sent him money and voted for him in the general....I believe he didn't fight the voter fraud because he was looking ahead to '08. We need someone with a little less self interest - which is the problem with many many Dems today...if Kerry is the candidate he will get my vote - not that it will matter because I'm in Florida and I'm pretty convinced that my vote didn't count in 2004 and if we don't get these freaking machines fixed it won't count in 2008 - I'm not too worried about having to hold my nose again and vote for Kerry because he won't get the nomination - I believe he is done. I believe he is a good man - but he let us down big time - on something critically important.

And by the way I was not being dramatic....

[Trillo]

39. Taking this away from Kerry for a moment of speculation:

If the vote is rigged, then what's the point of ever voting for anyone again? I've read that a large margin may overcome some fraud. But I don't believe that. Why can't they just put any numbers they want into their so-called results?

With election fraud it's a fantasy to believe that ANY candidate will ever win unless they're endorsed by those rigging the election, the insiders.

[unblock]

62. first, you assume they can rig any numbers

it's one thing to jigger a point or two, it's another thing to alter an election by 10 or 15%. it may not be possible for them to do that much without detection.

but assuming that, technically, they can pull that off....

what a large margin can do is make it harder to pass the smell test and the exit polls. if EVERYBODY seems to be voting for the democrat this time and yet the republican wins and the exit polls are show the democrat winning big and yet the republican wins, then the fraud becomes more obvious.

they can only get away with fraud as long as the fraud theory sounds like fringe speculation. once it becomes a mainstream suspicion, they're in trouble.

[sendero]

51. That is EXACTLY..

... what I think. The ONLY person uniquely positioned to do anything about this decided for political expediency again. Leader my ass.

[bpilgrim]

26. it doesn't matter whether you got proof or not, PERCEPTION is everything

something i've learned from rove along the miserable way...

we seriously need to at LEAST fight back if we ever hope to WIN one-day.

peace

[sendero]

52. Exactly..

... without someone in a high-profile position to raise the issue and pound the pundits, nothing is ever going to happen.

Of course, assuming he did it to protect his chances in 2008 are dicey also. Because the votes will be rigged then also.

[bearfan454]

17. He is an elitist I'm sorry to say.

He helps the elite.

[ginnyinWI]

34. sorry but he's not

Please don't judge unless you have looked at his voting record in the Senate and his investigative record too. He's a populist, regardless of the fact that he came more from privilege than most.

[zalinda]

42. Wait...........

Stop spouting the RW crap. He really didn't come from privilege. His father was a military man who became a diplomat. His education was more extensive than most because of where he went to school. But, he sold encyclopedias to help pay for college. He didn't get a free ride.

That crap bothered me about Gore too. He wasn't a son of privilege either, but the RW made him out to be one. His father was a farmer when he was elected, and he took his family to DC with him. Al would spend summers at the farm, working just as hard as the hired hands. Al's dad didn't become "rich" until just before or after he left office.

Neither of these men had a life of leisure, which you can't say about Bush. And that's the point. Rove went after them and called them elite because, that's what Bush was and is. And buying into Rove by our own, really is too sad.

zalinda

[Blue Belle]

48. Thank you...

I'm so glad you said that.

[ginnyinWI]

53. I know

I didn't say he was elite (which fits Chimpy to a T), I only said "more privileged than most" which is what Kerry himself has said. Because he knows that everyone doesn't get a chance to attend private schools or get into Yale. His rich aunt paid for some of it. I know his family itself wasn't rich--I was referring more to social status.
Because of that he was able to live in interesting places and meet interesting people (John F. Kennedy!) so, you know, his life was a bit more privileged than most of us have.


That said, he certainly does understand the middle class's struggle to make a buck and take care of their families. He's had his leaner days, plus he is an incredibly empathetic individual--has a great ability to see the other person's point of view and feel for them. Which is why he'd have made such a great president.

[Minstrel Boy]

30. I think he folded for the same reason those insiders

who might be expected to fight High Crimes of State usually fold: they become convinced that exposing a crime of such magnitude would risk destroying the system. It's how people of good will become co-opted into cover ups.

Problem is, after decades of this behaviour, the system is corrupt beyond repair, and does need to be collapsed so something new can take its place.

[shanti]

20. and now that

arnold has appointed his man as california's voting commissioner, look for it to happen here. personally, i think it already did happen here in california when arnold was voted in, but on a smaller scale (alameda county). i think it will get much worse next time....:scared:

[Griffy]

28. IM SHOUTING.. BUSH CHEATED ... got the bumper sticker!

we are not alone.. many know and awareness is growing... keep at it.. we have to never stop till the country knows bush cheated like they know nixon was a crook! The media is changing.. the 4th estate is dead, but we still have many ways to fight, especially with purchase power and mail/email.

[Stevepol]

8. KICK! N/T

[southernboy]

9. kick n/t

[yorkiemommie1]

10. kick again n/t

[earth mom]

12. KICK! nt

[Old and In the Way]

15. I would suggest that all registered Republicans who voted for

Kerry, re-register as Democrats. Those are easiest votes to steal.
And if I were Dean, I would do some independent polling of the 2004 election results to see if we can confirm the results.

[msongs]

16. democratic party does not care about election fraud...........

with a few exceptions the democrats will do nothing to guarantee the integrity of elections.

here in california the Dems in the legislature willingly gave control of the voting booth to the republicans and their secretary of state nominee with absolutely NO PROTEST............shit sucking cowards.

Msongs
www.msongs.com/political-shirts.htm

[Griffy]

29. I heard Dean talk about this in person... he knows the media..

is NOT to be trusted and is going around talking to people in person.. no fitlers, and he talks about making sure the votes are counted this time.. he said things like.. we will run candidates that will not only get the votes to win.. but we will make sure they are counted too! He knows.. but is walking the fine line of those that are still in denial. I would like to see stronger language on this... Things happen slow.. just keep at it, the day will come when it is common knowledge!

[DoYouEverWonder]

31. They can count the votes as much as they want

and you still won't solve the problem of rigged elections. That is because half of the fraud was in the absentee ballots.

Here's how it works. Both sides use people to help 'collect' the votes. Howver, the Repugs make cheating an artform. They make sure that everyone who voted absentee or did not vote at all lately, gets an absentee ballot. Then they target poor, elderly, usually black voters to help them fill out and send their ballots. The ones who turn out to be illiterate are their favorite targets. That way they can 'help' them fill out the ballot and since the person can't read, they have no idea whether or not the ballot is filled out correctly. Voila, a perfectly legitimate ballot without anyway to prove fraud.

Now, do you see why states like Florida made it so much easier to vote absentee?

[Griffy]

33. 1 of many fraud techniques used.. but the biggest was electronic..

non-paper trail voting and tabulaters... The statistics point to where the majority of fraud took place. The question is how do we get the millions of dems to understand they have been robbed. Banks manage to transfer money everyday with little error... yet we accept voting systems with huge flaws.. its the public awareness that will force the system to change in a way that will prevent fraud... on the level of the banks..at least!

[DoYouEverWonder]

35. I put together some data awhile ago

in Florida, Bush won the absentee vote, but Kerry won the Early Vote. The vote on the day of the election was about evenly split.

I think they padded the absentee vote as much as possible, then they would just have to tweak the ether vote numbers. Either way, we have to fix both aspects or we can forget about ever living in a democracy again.

[Toucano]

18. Does anyone have the full report?

Thanks.

[sabra]

21. From DU homepage

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=203x351187

[Toucano]

23. Thanks so much. n/t

[orpupilofnature57]

22. They stole our country through apathy and ignorance, but how did they

fool us into believing, they knew or gave a shit.

[SheepyMcSheepster]

24. kick

:kick:

[geomon666]

25. Shhhhh

Let's just keep this to ourselves kay? You see because the Frankens of the world (and on DU there are many) will not buy into this no matter how many Statistical Analysts you bring out. We lost fair and square, even though bush did steal the first one...uh........he didn't need to this time. We really lost so just....let it go.......yeah.:eyes:

[OKthatsIT]

36. You're CREEPY

-

[Stevepol]

40. Kick! n/t

[EFerrari]

41. There is no story here.

I know, because the NYT reader's rep told me so. (Didn't you, Mr. Okrent?)

Great job, every one of you WHO MADE NOISE.

Do you remember, the AP was calling us DISSIDENTS in December? I'll be a dissident, if that's what it takes to get an honest election in this country.

:tinfoilhat:

[morffin]

43. Fairness Doctrine

nothing will matter until we get the Fairness Doctrine back. We can nominate Jesus and Patton and the right wing will use the media to turn out ticket into crap in the eyes of the public.

The right wing has a death hold on the media.......they control 99% of everything America sees, reads and hears.

Just look at the carnival in Florida......20% of the nation said the feeding tube should be taken out......yet, the media coverage was split 50/50 on the issue. You would think this issue had totaly split America in half.....when the reality is that a large majority of Americans agreed on the issue.

We need to take back the media.........or it wont matter who we nominate or how much proof of stolen elections we can come up with.

Nearly 30% of Americans believe the election in 2004 was faulty.......yet there is no media coverage....20% of Americans thought Terri's tube should be kept in led to wall to wall coverage with both sides given equal time.......or even giving the minority side more exp.

Most Americans dont even know that Gore won Florida in 2000.

http://www.sustainer.org/dhm_archive/search.php?display_article=vn209fairnessed

[DirtyDawg]

45. Georgia's at the top...

...of the list when it comes to Democratic duplicity in establishing the 'perfect rigging storm'. Our Secretary of State - a Democrat planning to run for Governor next time out - led, or allowed herself to be 'mis-led' about how much more efficient electronic voting would be. She has maintained that there's no way it could have been tampered with and/or manipulated...who can blame her, if the truth came out she would absolutely be 'toast' in this state along with every person currently holding an elected office.

One day the truth of all this will indeed come out...probably when one or more of the insiders decides to make some money off a book...and when it does I only hope that the Ohio election officials will be among the first to be 'up against the wall'.

[skygazer]

46. I've never understood the logic behind this theory

that Kerry voters would be more likely to respond to exit polls than bush voters. Why? What would make the polling firm feel that would be the case? Why would anyone accept that explanation without some sort of valid and rational reason for it?

It's never made a lick of sense to me and it still doesn't.

[morffin]

47. the right claims

that there was an org. effort by Bush voters to not answer exit pollers.

This doesnt explain why the exit polls were correct in areas where a paper trail was used to protect the vote.

I guess the Bushbots in those areas didnt get the memo.

[Name removed]

49. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[SammyWinstonJack]

55. Except that George Bush** didn't win. n/t

[IndianaGreen]

56. The exit polls in the Ukhraine showed that election was stolen

just as the exit polls in America showed that Kerry got the most votes. Somewhere in there the votes that were cast for Kerry ended up being counted for Bush.

[Name removed]

59. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Griffy]

61. Wow you are naive... So if the thief gets out the door... let him go?

we did that.. it encourged them to return and steal even more. The numbers the public has been told are not the real vote count. Its so obvious! I might be more unsure, if it was only exit polls or if it was only long lines.. if it was only bush friendly voting machine co. or if it was only 9 outa 10 errors favored bush... if it was only the tens of thousands of complaints... if it was only the swore testimony of citizens under oath that he was asked to make software that could control voting machines... if only you could see the brainwashing propaganda that hides the truth, you'd know!

if the only thing was exit polls....

[Carolab]

60. I suggest we do what Lynn Landes suggested.

Offer paper ballots, hand counted, for anyone who doubts the machines.

[Old Hippie]

63. please don't flame me but......

I just can't shake the feeling that Kerry was the proverbial "straw man" in the 2004 "election"...he made all of this noise about counting every vote(why?) and then caved faster than Gore and with less than a third of the passion Gore had.

Dean was the front runner until the media smeared him with the (doctored) "Dean scream"!

I support most of Kerry's actions in Congress but for whatever reason, I can't help but feeling he threw the election...exit polls are rarely wrong, and the fact that they proved fraud in the Ukraine should have been enough "evidence" to at least have the election reviewed. The difference in the poll numbers here was dismissed with a simple "they got it wrong"......career pollsters made an error of this magnitude? Not bloody likely.

See how the right creates a little cognitive dissonance, knowing it will paralyze us, while they go about merrily helping themselves to the spoils???

[Carolab]

64. I won't flame you. I agree.

The DLC sabotaged Dean. I not only believe that this was a coup but that the Democratic "leaders" have been "in on it" all along. They also wanted war in the ME, except that they believed in a multinational vs. unilateral approach.

Welcome to DU!

[go west young man]

65. I think it goes without a doubt the elections are not legitimate.

Its obvious to the rest of the world and the press chooses to not question it. Kerry threw in the towel quick which was a big let down. The fact of the matter is that the American dream of a beautiful democracy is over. The MSM is in the pocket of the government and the government is run by corporate millionaires with only thier own self interest in mind. The Bush junta waves the bible and the flag and idiots spending all thier money on gas worship his skating ass. He's a charlatan and a daddys boy as was his father before him. His grandfather was profiting off the German war machine and there are so many dark secrets in thier family closet that the devil himself must kick back in fascination when reading that book. Yet they continue on thier free ride. The press is what has to go. And the way to do that is turn off your TV. My solution to you for a better life is 3 step. 1)cancel cable 2)get www.netflix.com for your movies 3)www.TV4all.com or www.webtvlist.com or www.comedycentral.com Those are all you need and then you can save some money and spend more time with your family. Hit MSM where it counts. In the wallet.

[byronius]

66. Repent Harlequin, Said The TickTockMan --

The USA is stretched tight. The tensions are utterly enormous and completely unexpressed and unrecorded. This state will not stand. At this point, even they must know, deep down, that this will not stand. The single most illegitimate and incompetent President in all American history. Their actions and statements are bizarre and somewhat insane.

They will have to kill us for this to stand. I intend to practice the same art as Harlan Ellison's Harlequin until they do.

:grr:

[9119495]

67. It begs the question if the exit polls will ever be used again.

After all, if they were wrong--and so far off, they are now meaningless.

And if they were right, where is the outrage?