Residents brace as Minutemen deploy (US-Mexico border)

[Bhaisahab]

ON EDIT - SOURCE: EL UNIVERSAL, MEXICO

As the U.S. and Mexican governments continued their condemnation of the Minuteman Project that will begin operating on the Arizona-Sonora border today, concerns over possible violence are growing among the area's residents.

The U.S. Embassy in Mexico issued a statement Thursday saying the U.S. government "does not back" the vigilante group and that the only group responsible for watching the border is the Border Patrol.

However, the statement continued, the United States could not prohibit the Minuteman volunteers from organizing on the border, and the U.S. Border Patrol "appreciates efforts by local residents to report suspicious activities."

Also on Friday, Miguel Escobar Valdez, Mexican Consul in Douglas, Arizona, said the Mexican military was bracing for possible violence on the border.

"The Mexican army is on alert," Escobar said. "Also, law enforcement will be vigilant because the situation is very volatile. This is because, I have to say it, there are violent and radical elements on both sides of the border."

http://www.el-universal.com.mx/pls/impreso/noticia.html?id_nota=9995&tabla=miami

[mmonk]

1. Could not prevent?

bull

[babylonsister]

3. My immediate thought exactly.

Another distraction?

[all.of.me]

4. really.......

they seem to prevent anything else they don't want happening! what crap.

[phantom power]

9. No doubt. Why not stick them in a free-speech zone?

Or have some fake secret-service agents drag them back to their cars.

[Ravenseye]

2. What are they gonna do?

I'm not familiar with the group they're talking about. Is it a bunch of Arizonans with big guns who are gonna shoot to kill anything they see coming across the border?

[radwriter0555]

5. Yep, they're gonna kill em some indians! Some women, children and men

who are crossing the border to the USA.

What year is this?

[babylonsister]

6. Heated discussion is here:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=104&topic_id=3397173

Minutemen aka vigilantes, protecting the border from any illegals entering the US.

[Bridget Burke]

7. They claim they're going to just watch & call La Migra if needed...

But, somehow, the locals don't believe them. Most of them are NOT from Arizona. People down along the border have their own guns & don't want a bunch of stupid outsiders stumbling around their property.

A Mexican-American Minuteman is interviewed in the article--probably because this is a Mexican paper. However, I'm sure most of the "volunteers" don't speak a word of Spanish. Stupid.

[ret5hd]

18. if they dont want outsiders on their property...

have them arrested for trespassing.

[Name removed]

22. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[tyedyeto]

8. Some are from AZ, but many are from out of state...

as the 'minuteman project' has been advertised on some very extreme white supremacy websites.

They call the 'project/protest' a large scale neighborhood watch, but many will be carrying weapons.

[radwriter0555]

17. These morons are going HUNTING... plain and simple. Freak

neanderthals with no cerebral cortex activity.

[tyedyeto]

19. Yes, and not for rattlesnakes...n/t

[rocktivity]

36. They claim they'll be unarmed and will only report suspicious activity

And if you believe that, I have a bridge in Brooklyn you might want to buy.

:headbang:
rocknation

[Pab Sungenis]

10. Ever read "It Can't Happen Here?"

I'm re-reading it right now. In that book, the American dictator's private police were called the Minutemen, or MM's.

Frightening parallel.

[Bhaisahab]

11. wow. frightening indeed. n/t

[BiggJawn]

16. You thought that too, eh? "The Minute-Men Marching Club"

Started up all over the country as a sort of "social club" of supporters of Buzz Windrip.

Eventually became America's version of the Brownshirts.

And you didn't dare cross a "Mickey Mouse". you'd get a broken skull, if you were lucky, "disappeared" if you weren't.

[Slyder]

12. Next will be Republican paramilitary death squads?

Perhaps we need armed gay paramilitary personnel patrolling American streets to prevent gay bashing? I mean just to help local police enforce the law since Republicans have slashed funding for police.

I feel so much safer with paramilitary forces guarding our borders, NOT! These things have a way of getting out of hand. This is one more reason I will not for the Republican candidate for my city's mayor. Republicans are drunk on power and will destroy every American institution we hold dear to maintain and increase their power.

[Pab Sungenis]

27. Not a bad idea.

I've thought for years about founding and funding a 501(c)(3) group for offering firearm training, safety training, and financial subsidies to gays, lesbians, transsexuals, bisexuals, and the rest of the alphabet soup, to purchase, license and carry firearms.

I want to call it ARM THE QUEERS.

How many Republican 2nd Amendment people would shit at that thought?

[meganmonkey]

30. Arm the Queers - I love it!

:rofl:

(Espcially picturing my best friend, a gay male, carrying some big gun wearing cammo - he'd probably do it, too!)

[Sentath]

32. You mean like

(considering membership)

[sled]

54. Not bad at all...

Don't know about Republicans, but some 2nd Amendment advocates, don't see it as such a bad idea. Personally, I'm for buy a "liberal" a gun, & thanks, I'll have a double...give'em a stake, in defending their own rights, country, & the 2nd Amendment...from threats both foreign, & domestic...

WHY BE AN ARMED LIBERAL?
http://www.armedliberal.com/archives/000147.html#000147

[Lilyhoney]

38. Republicans are drunk

I thought you might like this poem I wrote while watching fox news one day just before the war started.

The republicans are drunk and running a'muk
What they drink we dare not think
For their libations destroy civilizations
Which leads me to question their imaginations
On what dreams do they feast
as they graze upon the east?
Bush says start the disarmamment on wednesday
And I will have a light sweet crude sunday
86 billion is the budget for Iraqs annihilation
How much has Bush actually spent on American education?
Not even the dolphin in the ocean
is safe from MANipulation
Under a spell of promised fish and praise
they eagerly manuver underwater covert operations
They rally the troops and brainwash our youth
as young as 4 and 5
A whole new generation will be left to wonder
Will I make it thru the rapture and come out the other side?
Can we really stop the bilding of the war macheine?
Or will we feed our families by taking the only available jobs
Which happens to be oiling the monster and keeping it clean?

[tyedyeto]

13. And there is also this article from the NY Times...

http://www.nytimes.com/2005/04/01/national/01border.html?pagewanted=1

TOMBSTONE, Ariz., March 31 - Walter McCarty, an 82-year-old retired Marine sergeant, says he is looking for adventure on the most porous part of the American border with Mexico. So, on Thursday, he signed up for the Minuteman Project, a volunteer patrol in search of furtive immigrants making the desert crossing into the United States.


"I hope to go out on patrols at night, find some illegals," said Mr. McCarty, who had his .38-caliber pistol strapped to his leg as he stood outside the citizen patrol's makeshift headquarters here in Tombstone, the town where Wyatt Earp and Doc Holliday engaged in a shootout with the Clanton gang in 1881. "I need some excitement. And this is better than sitting at home all day watching rattlesnakes crawl out of the den."

Led by Chris Simcox, a 44-year-old former kindergarten teacher from Los Angeles who accuses the federal government of turning a blind eye to the flow of illegal immigrants, the Minuteman Project is an effort to post 1,000 volunteers across 23 miles of border. It has angered Hispanics and many business and government leaders in this border county, aroused the Mexican government and prompted a warning from President Bush against vigilante action.

Still, for days, an assortment of volunteers, most of them retirees, has been trickling into the headquarters, on Toughnut Street, to get assignments that will begin Saturday and last a month. Reporters from as far away as Europe and Mexico have also descended.
>snip

There is more in the article about the reaction of residents in the communities this action affects.

[PhuLoi]

39. To quote my father,"just because he's a Marine doesn't mean

he's not an asshole." My pere was a Marine with the 4th on Saipan, Tinian and Iwo Jima.

[emc]

56. This is the kind of shit to start a border war

I live 20 miles from the border---------this crap (marines, kindergarden teachers and people from out of state ) are the ones who are going to start something here---and when it starts, they will be long gone, since they dont have the guts to stay and help out the legal way------

In all my years here, NM border, I have never incountered an illegal who was hell bent on distruction of property---I know it happens, but I believe its over publacised---most of these people are looking for work and an honest days pay----I have incounter many ---just walking up the highway and not in peoples back yard distroying property---get ready for the revolution----maybe ASSHOLE which is synomious with BUSH will send his wife down here after things get out of hand----

[Trajan]

14. The US Government 'does not back' the vigilante group ....

Yet a whole lotta DU Gungeonites do .....

sheeeesh ...

[Redstone]

15. Of course.

To some people, guns are more important than ANYTHING else.

I salute your bravery in pointing this out. Hope you have your flameproof suit on.

Redstone

[Toots]

20. There will be Americans killed or injured by these Military wannabees

There are a lot of Americans of Mexican heritage along that border. Are they going to stop every person that appears to be Mexican and ask for papers? If I was approached by a Nobody with no authority to do anything why should I give them my identification? Most Americans won't do that. Why should just anybody stop (detain) an American without authority. that is close to kidnapping. Who's to say they won't misuse any identification they are given. this is a very scary occurance. It should be halted immediately.....The government is negligent if they allow this to go forth..

[David__77]

21. Progressives should mobilize against this fascist element.

They should be struck hard--like a Klan rally would.

[Name removed]

23. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[tyedyeto]

24. 'Defend' our border?

I don't recall seeing any Mexican military invasion recently. Did they cross with tanks?

These are PEOPLE who want a better life than the hovels they live in south of our border. America was once considered the 'land of opportunity' and to many in the world, they still believe that.

[Name removed]

35. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Name removed]

47. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[tyedyeto]

51. I was just trying to point out that most of the illegals are PEOPLE...

who are seeking a better life than what they have in their own countries.

Yes, their own governments should be doing something to better the economic conditions but it is not happening.

And no, I do not support an open immigration policy.


Edit for spelling

[David__77]

31. These forces are fascist.

They are racists. They have killed people. In fact, the KKK organizes within them. US citizens have no right to terrorize Mexican nationals crossing political borders for economic motives that are largely a result of US policy.

[MrTriumph]

50. Yes, they should protect American jobs. Isn't that what you mean?

Hey, the oppression is from diminished wages and loss of jobs.

[Daphne08]

53. That's exactly right. Come to Southern California and see

what has happened! Our highways are clogged, our hospitals are overrun, our schools are failing, etc.

NO, I'm not anti-immigration but I am against illegal immigration.

Flame away! ;)

[magnussun]

25. Undocumented border patrol group

Maybe Mexico should use their forces to prevent illegal immigration.
It is time for Bush to do his job, and start giving money to states who bear the brunt of the burden. But he won't, because his big business buddies want to keep exploiting Mexicans.

M

[MisterP]

26. maybe the Michican Militia can help them, like the 2K they wanted

to storm Schiavo's hospice.
Where's lettuce-head Ridge? Call the bald new HS Secy.!

[Mari333]

28. Yet another Circus of American Clowns n/t

[FlaGranny]

29. I certainly don't approve of vigilante groups

but not too long ago somebody did a story on the problem of border crossings. Most of these border crossings are led by criminal groups. The ranchers and farmers whose land the Mexicans cross are afraid of them. They are armed. They cut through the fencing, cattle escape. They have to continually repair their fences. In addition, they occasionally find dead bodies on their property. The Mexicans who cross the border to work are not the problem, but the organized smugglers are. Remember the stories of 20 or 30 Mexicans locked into container trucks left to die in the Arizona summer sun? The kind of people who would do this are the people the ranchers on the border have to deal with. If they are out on a fence inspection and run across a group of these smugglers, they are likely to get shot at and maybe killed. The ranchers have been begging for government help, more border patrol, anything - they have not gotten it. It seems to be a problem the government does not want to deal with. Even an open-door policy and work visas would not solve the problem of the smugglers. There are other things to smuggle besides people. The only answer to the problem is totally open borders and making all illegal drugs legal. Don't hold your breath for that to happen.

I tend to feel some sympathy for those border residents. Most of them are big ranchers, but they deserve to be able to go about their business safely. I wonder what any of us would do if we had dangerous people on our property nearly every night and the police would not come when you called them. Again, I don't blame the innocent and, in most cases, desperate, Mexicans who only want to work to support their families. They will probably be hurt right along with the smugglers.

[kk897]

33. I wish the media would talk about this group a little differently...

OK, so maybe they won't go so far as to call them racist vigilantes (which is what they seem to be), but couldn't they at least say "the so-called 'Minuteman Project'" or "the self-styled 'MMP'"? Calling them Minutemen without any qualifiers works on the American subconscious, giving the group a much more positive patina. It gives them a historicity that is undeserved. Without qualifiers, they sound quasi-official, even. (Although who knows--that may not be far from the truth).

[VegasWolf]

34. Cool! Grab the popcorn and watch drunk white rednecks shoot each

other up in the desert. Should be entertaining. Certainly no
loss to society. Just don't ask me to be sorry for these clowns.

[Name removed]

40. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Robert Oak]

37. illegals are a real big problem

and the government won't do anything about it simply because
big business wants cheap labor. They have used illegals
to wipe out labor unions in meatpacking, lower the wages in construction, keep the wages massively low in all farm work
plus ignore modernization, even defense contracts requiring security
clearances have found illegal aliens working around there w/ fake
social security numbers. A new study shows how the group
most affected by this constant depression of wages are blacks, illegals
are undercutting the wages and taking the jobs...
they also work the system to get Medicaid and other benefits
by having fake social security numbers and use of under the table
cash underground economy.

I'm none too thrilled about private citizens w/ guns patrolling the borders but I'm not surprised for our government won't do anything about illegal immigration, which is plain out of control.

This is just an "incident waiting to happen" and I hope no one gets
shot on this one.

But, most are people whose property is being destroyed by illegals
and dangerous characters crossing the border plus having a porous
border when other nation states do not is a double whammy for both
labor depression and terrorists.

Supposedly the minutemen is being extremely careful on discipline
and membership and safety...

I hope that's true, although certainly in any government force
you can get some bad apples too.

Anyway, when illegal immigration pops up as a topic, pretty much
the race card is always used.

It disturbs me that few can look at an issue in it's entirety
and analyze it w/o resorting to some sophomoric view of the world
and labeling all who say this is a very bad thing for the economy,
labor, environment as now just being racist fucks.

Never in my life have I been a racist fuck but the minute illegal immigration is brought up and I point out the economic consequences
of having such a large underground economy in the US as well as being the only nation state which allows this sort of thing...

Instead of anyone bothering to think deeply here, a knee jerk
reaction of hostility comes along as if nation states are in one
big coca-cola commercial and anyone who says differently is a fascist.

It's simply not true and if you were living near the border near
Arizona or unable to get a job at a decent wage because someone
is working the system and will work for half that...when the original
wage was barely enough to live on, maybe you will feel differently.

But, people here don't get it...the government doesn't see us
or illegals as people...they see us all as a labor pool with associated costs and right now the corporate mentality is to squeeze
workers any way they can. Use of illegals is one way...
by subsidizing those under the table massively low wages with
taxpayer benefits...American citizens get a double whammy...
their taxes go to subsidizing people who also assist in undercutting their wages.

[customerserviceguy]

41. I'm hoping that

this Minuteman thing will force a national debate on the issue. Otherwise, we keep plodding along with the existing broken system, where smugglers and Western Union are the only ones profiting.

Either seal up the border, enforce the laws, or just get rid of them. We've been on the fence with this issue for way too long.

[Robert Oak]

43. just trying to get a sane discourse is near impossible

but polls say > 80% of all people in the US want something done yesterday..

what really kills me of those playing the race card are these two facts:

1. blacks are the largest minority group getting displaced for competition of illegals working for half the wages (if that)

2. > 55% of all legal Hispanics voted for prop 200 in AZ, which stops
benefits for illegal aliens and a lot of other things.

Anyway, if people continue to play the race card...as well
as there really are some damn white supremists who have grabbed
this and some other immigration and "multicultural" topics...

it's going to be tough to get any sane discource and get a real
secure border and a fair immigration system.

[tyedyeto]

44. So true..........

any discussion of this topic will bring out the people who say that 'something' needs to be done, but no one will say what.

Some say it's the responsibility of the Mexican gov't to provide a better standard of living to it's own people, but how is that to be done? Does the US have any responsibility in this matter? Or is this simply another nation's problem?

I would argue no, since these people are coming to the US because this is the 'land of opportunity' that the US has generated for so many years.

Imagine if you lived in poverty for generations and had the means to make a better life for yourself and your family by fleeing to another country....would you do that for your family?

[Robert Oak]

55. right now Bush seemingly has no interest in pressuring

Mexico to do something about it's economically repressive and totally
corrupt government..

they do nothing and I agree, they need to be pressuring
Mexico...
but the solution of course is opposite of the Bush agenda, which
is similar to the Mexico agenda of corruption and a few elites
have all of the money and power.

But, yes if it were me I would be flying across that border
and one way to address this is to put pressure on Mexico
to improve conditions for it's people...

but right now we have our country being turned into a 3rd world
nation, so I suspect we don't have a prayers chance in hell to improve
the conditions in Mexico and get some wealth redistribution and so on.

[ThoughtCriminal]

42. Just wait till June

When it hits 118 out there, they'll go home and forget it.

[Judi Lynn]

45. US vigilantes begin border stake-out

US vigilantes begin border stake-out

Immigrants' rights activists fear that volunteers arriving in Tombstone, Arizona, for month-long patrol could provoke mayhem

Dan Glaister in Los Angeles
Saturday April 2, 2005
The Guardian

Hundreds of anti-immigrant activists were gathering in Tombstone, Arizona, yesterday to begin a month-long unofficial patrol of the border with Mexico. To greet them, hundreds of immigrants' rights activists planned to travel to the desert of Arizona from across the southern US.

And caught in the middle, are the thousands of undocumented immigrants who try to cross the border from Mexico each day, and the hundreds of US government border patrol agents who try to stop them.

"It's a dangerous place down there," says TJ Bonner, the president of the 10,000 member Border Patrol Council, which represents the agency's officers. "It's the wild west reincarnated."

The Minuteman Project, which is organising the volunteer patrols, is being run from the offices of the Tombstone Tumbleweed newspaper. Many of the volunteers are expected to be armed. They will wear improvised uniforms and be equipped with everything from shortwave radios to nightsights to a small fleet of light aircraft.
(snip/...)

http://www.guardian.co.uk/usa/story/0,12271,1450762,00.html?gusrc=rss

[MrTriumph]

46. The real problem are the governments of Mexico...

and Central America that are incapable of creating good paying jobs that keep up with rapid population growth. They figure it is better to put an American worker out of a job than to upset the status quo.

Why seek change of an entrenched, corrupt system when it is easier to go to the US and pick up a job worth big money back home?

[huellewig]

52. Yes the governments of Mexico, all 11 of them..

Your XBOX was made in Mexico. Dude, Listen to Bush, Listen to Bush, the only way to fix SSI is to open the borders to young workers. We need all the healthy Mexicans, Cubans, French, and Macintosh users to fill the gap of the baby boomer's. We just need them to pay taxes. We should make it easy for them to come.

And dude your IT job is safe from the guy who picked the tomato hiding under your bun.

[emad]

48. US vigilantes begin border stake-out

Immigrants' rights activists fear that volunteers arriving in Tombstone, Arizona, for month-long patrol could provoke mayhem

Dan Glaister in Los Angeles
Saturday April 2, 2005
The Guardian

Hundreds of anti-immigrant activists were gathering in Tombstone, Arizona, yesterday to begin a month-long unofficial patrol of the border with Mexico. To greet them, hundreds of immigrants' rights activists planned to travel to the desert of Arizona from across the southern US.

And caught in the middle, are the thousands of undocumented immigrants who try to cross the border from Mexico each day, and the hundreds of US government border patrol agents who try to stop them.

"It's a dangerous place down there," says TJ Bonner, the president of the 10,000 member Border Patrol Council, which represents the agency's officers. "It's the wild west reincarnated."
The Minuteman Project, which is organising the volunteer patrols, is being run from the offices of the Tombstone Tumbleweed newspaper. Many of the volunteers are expected to be armed. They will wear improvised uniforms and be equipped with everything from shortwave radios to nightsights to a small fleet of light aircraft

http://www.guardian.co.uk/usa/story/0,12271,1450762,00.html

[AnnInLa]

49. Tombstone....how appropriate

[MominTN]

57. Take action

When your government doesn't care, then that's all you can do.
Go drive around Mexico if you can avoid the potholes and the garbage dumped along the way, and after you see the people living in bamboo shacks with no windows or doors with no plumbing and dirt floors, maybe you can decide if we should just invite them to move up here where we have colder winters and a higher cost of living. After all in our "ownership society" as illegals they won't have government subsidized healthcare but somehow the rest of us will pay higher prices to cover the default. And we can learn Spanish in our spare time. We can even have fundraisers at school to raise money to teach our children Spanish at an early age and provide bilingual teachers for the children who occasionally come to school. Somehow we can maintain our test scores, so that in spite of those children who fail thru no fault of their own, we will still receive the money to run our schools which unfortunately isn't as much as we were promised. And if we ever do have a real emergency, we can hope that the emergency room won't be too crowded with people who haven't had their vaccinations or been in gang or drug related injuries. And guess what, the illegal border crossers don't just bother Arizonians but make it all the way to the southeast states and settle in neighborhoods that don't have the money to support them or fix any of these problems. Oh about the drive across Mexico, you won't be able to afford the insurance, because when they find out you're an American, they may just lie down under your car for $25K, and what kind of insurance company wants to pay that? So ride the bus. After you pay your deductible a few times here in the USA when these illegals don't have insurance, maybe you can get our bus system improved so we don't have to pay these high insurance and gasoline bills. Of course you won't get to work in time, but there won't be that many going to work anyway.

[Logansquare]

58. Minutemen, meet heavily armed drug smugglers

They probably think they're going to be terrorizing unarmed braceros. Wait until they run into someone who happens to have more guns than them.