A simple form puts children in home-schooling

[Rose Siding]

DES MOINES (AP) --- A man facing child endangerment charges for allegedly keeping his 10-year-old daughter locked in a darkened, empty room was able to remove her from school by filling out a simple two-page form.

Jon Neely took his daughter out of Winterset Elementary School in November, telling school officials she was going to be home-schooled. Not even a signature was required.

Under the home assistance program, Neely was to be advised by a certified teacher, who would meet with his daughter twice a month. The task fell to Josh Morgan, the Winterset home school coordinator, who met twice with Neely's daughter in December.
...
He said the red flag came in January, when Neely's father began canceling meetings because of "family emergencies."
Police went to the home in February and found the girl in a room emptied of furniture, except for a TV cabinet. The windows had been covered with foil and there was no bulb in the light fixture.

Neely told police he was punishing the girl because she stole food, but officials said she was 30 pounds below average weight for her age.

About 1 percent of Iowa's 480,000 students are home-schooled. Nationally, 1.1 million students are home-schooled.

http://www.wcfcourier.com/articles/2005/04/12/news/breaking_news/14cf15ab012890bf86256fe1003a8c9e.txt

[Horse with no Name]

It shouldn't be that easy

but I wonder how often this goes on nationwide?
We would probably be mortified to know the actual numbers.

[Kimber Scott]

7. Why shouldn't it be that easy? This is a free country.

Not advocating what this father did. He's obviously an evil bastard. What you're saying, though, is sending kids to school is basically a practice in ensuring parents are behaving. Why don't we just have a patrol go around and knock on everybody's doors to check on us all? What about the grandma in the attic? Somebody's got to check on her.

This is where neighbors come in - not the Gestapo. This is a sad, horrible situation, but schools are for teaching those who choose to avail themselves of their services. They can be very instrumental in discovering problems in the home, but that is not their purpose. I would hate to think, were I to decide to home-school, I would have to be approved by the state to be allowed to be around my kids all day.

[Horse with no Name]

10. Personally IMO if it inconveniences 1000 people

to save the life of one child who is being locked away in closets and not being fed--I'd say the inconvenience was well worth it.
There was a situation in Texas (of course) where a young girl was locked away and abused for years and the neighbors had no idea she even existed. So where is this child's safety net via the neighbors?
If a parent has an open case on child abuse, they should be prevented from putting their children in home school--and if it means that legitimate people have to approved, then so be it.

[Kimber Scott]

17. This is NOT a home-school problem. If someone has an open

child-abuse case the authorities in charge of protecting the children are not the schools.

[LeighAnn]

40. Good thing Edison's mom didn't live in today's day and age

When Thomas Edison's teacher told his mother he was "addled" she never sent him back and instead taught him at home.

School sucks. Blessed are the homeschooled kids. Public education in a lot of places is a ticket to Stupidville.

[doc05]

54. That same logic

That same logic would have us outlaw eating steak (keep a few hundred people from choking to death each year). And taking showers (keep a few thousand people from slipping in the tub and hitting their head). Or if saving lives is really the goal, lowering the speed limit on the interstate to 35 mph.

Unfortunately, it sounds like this sick f*** was motivated enough to torture this poor kid that he would have found a way around whatever rules were in place. Face it, we can't protect everybody from everything. All you can do is come up with reasonable rules for the majority (and preventing people with a child abuse history certainly sounds more reasonable to me) and hope for the best.

[Heidi]

67. I don't mean to be rude . . .

Really, I don't, but the old "if it saves the life of one child" rheotoric isn't logical. That's like saying teaching math to one child is worth it even if only one child comprehends it.

[Baconfoot]

15. If teachers require certification, the form should be more than two pages.

We do not permit "home prescription drug dispensing" or "home mastectomies" for very good reasons.

Similarly, not every parent should be permitted to home school their child. Only those who can demonstrate minumum competence should be permitted to do so, only those who can adequately meet their child's educational NEEDS. The child's interest own in being educated and everyone's interest in their fellow countrypersons being educated trumps parental decision making rights here.

Many parents of, say, fifth graders CANNOT perform at the fifth grade level in at least one subject area. Such a parent should simply not be permitted to homeschool.

[Kimber Scott]

16. I think if you do a little research on home-school you will find the

statistics quite impressive. Who better to teach a child than his, or her parent? You don't have to have a license to have a kid, you don't need one to teach them. I know each state has its own requirements regarding home teaching. Mine, Arizona, being one of the more relaxed. However, despite the lack of credentialing of the parent, a good majority of these kids are testing at higher levels than their public schooled peers and are going on to be quite successful, independent thinkers.

It's sad we've all been brainwashed into believing we need permission to do everything in this country. Public school is not the answer to everything. Even though, all four of my kids attended public schools. I had thought to home-school my youngest because of his growing fascination with the drug crowd and other problems. He's ADHD and they were forcing me to give him medicine - for ten years. They have since put him in a private school and he doesn't have to take it anymore. But, to think, had I gone through with the decision to home-school to be told I couldn't because of some bureaucratic bullshit dreamt up by a bunch of people who don't know me, or my kid, and I would have to continue to send him to public school where he had to be drugged up to attend only to be around other kids with more drugs, illicit drugs, bullies, school-shooters, etc., etc. That's wrong! I don't care what anybody says.

Yes, there are freaks out there. There are abusers out there. There are fundamentalists out there, but goddamn it, if there is one fucking control I have left in this country, one, it will be how my family decides to educate itself! We do not belong to the state, as you seem to assume.

[stanwyck]

31. actually, the stats aren't quite as

impressive as you'd have us believe on home-schooling. Home-schoolers attend college at the same rate as public school kids. And the home-schooled kids who do attend college are in the mid-range of academic performance. They tend to test better in grammar and spelling and lower in math and the sciences.
Speak to college professors about their experiences with home-schooled students. And other students. You can't judge all students by the one home-schooled student who won the spelling bee. Also, we need to hear from adult home-schooled men and women. Are they resentful of their educations? Do they wish they could have had the opportunity to attend school? What is the importance of having a range of teachers with different backgrounds? Can one teacher really bring to the table what the phys.ed, music, art, physics, literature, geometry, calculus, sociology, psychology, current events, and biology teachers offer?
Is home-schooling truly about a better education? Or the parent's need for control? Sadly, in this case, it was about control. And there were no teachers available to report the abuse.

[Kimber Scott]

35. I still say, it's a free country.

Home-schoolers attend college at the same rate as public school kids. And the home-schooled kids who do attend college are in the mid-range of academic performance. They tend to test better in grammar and spelling and lower in math and the sciences.

"While government schools spend an average of $5,325 per student per year to attain a 50th percentile performance ranking among the states, $1.5 million home-schooled children cost U.S. families only about $400 per student annually, to achieve test scores averaging 25 percent higher at the 75th percentile."

http://www.come-over.to/homeschool/homeschoolnews.htm

Ok, you say they're average. Assuming you're right, so what? Better in grammar and spelling, worse in math. Many home-school parents hire tutors for math. Probably because throughout their own public school experience they didn't seem to "get it."

You can't judge all students by the one home-schooled student who won the spelling bee. Also, we need to hear from adult home-schooled men and women. Are they resentful of their educations? Do they wish they could have had the opportunity to attend school? What is the importance of having a range of teachers with different backgrounds? Can one teacher really bring to the table what the phys.ed, music, art, physics, literature, geometry, calculus, sociology, psychology, current events, and biology teachers offer?

You can't judge all home-school's by the one supposedly run by this deranged father. A good home-school offers kids varied exposure to life in general along with the specifics you mentioned. How much more will a child learn on a field trip to the art museum where he can actually listen to the docent talk about the works, as opposed to jockeying for position in line, rolling up spit balls to launch at his friends, or dodging same spit balls coming from the other direction? How much can a child learn about running a household by sitting down with his parent to tend the budget, pay the bills and balance a checkbook? How much can a child learn on a history vacation to a local site that he and his parents have researched and discussed before attending - without having to worrying about getting hit in the head with a book on the bus - or worse, gang raped in the auditorium? (That's socialization for you.)

How much can a child learn by attending the local community's ceramic class? Or, by working one day a week in a homeless shelter? How much socialization will he get with his peers by joining the community soccer team, YMCA swim team, or theater group? Public school is not the only answer and really is not a natural phenomenon, but one created by the need for factory workers at the dawn of the industrial age. People who could follow directions and stand in line. Not that formal education is not needed. Obviously, it is. We need our scientists, doctors, mathematicians, etc. But, it's important to note Einstein only made it to the sixth grade. He didn't fit into the system. He was the square peg. How many square pegs do our schools round off, now? They churn out people who insist on wearing the same clothes as their peers, drive the latest whatever and pursue the jobs that will make them the most money, or they work at gas stations. All victims of conformity.

The decision to home-school for a lot parents is based on many factors. A major one being the lack of personal attention their children are able to receive in a public environment and the need in a public school to cater to the lowest common denominator. Or, in my case, when I was considering doing it myself, the insistence of the school I drug my child so he would sit still in the classroom. I played along with this for ten years.

Some parents really believe they can do a better job - and they do. Other reasons include the traumatization their kids experience when they don't "fit in." When their edges just won't round off and their peers torture them to the point some of them think they need to shoot the place up. Other parents choose to do so because of religious reasons - which they have every right to do. They have as much right to pursue religion as I have not to.

Whatever the reason it is theirs - not yours, or mine. I say again, this is a free country.

[stanwyck]

51. Yes. but isn't it the children

who will pay the price for their parents' hubris? The parents are deciding. Not the children. The parents want this. The parents will teach. The parents are treating the children as possessions without free will.
One parent equaling the educational background of countless teachers. Parents who may have limited education themselves. So, the child is an experiment. He/she won't be able to get into medical school if Mom/Dad didn't teach the needed science and math. And colleges are increasing their requirements. My co-worker was dismayed to find out his home-schooled children didn't have the four years of foreign language our state universities now require. Who suffers? Who suffers for Mom and Dad's idealistic vision? The child. Their future is decided for them.
So. It's a free country for Mom and Dad.
Just not for their possessions, I mean, kids.

[Kimber Scott]

58. Kids are included in these decisions, at least they should be -

When they're old enough to make such decisions. Do kindergartners know what's best for them? Sure, they deserve to have some input, but it is the parent's responsibility to make the final decision. Older children have more say. And excuse me, but I'm in a university and was not required to have four years of a foreign language. Although, I grew up with one and I spent another two years in Germany learning another. You see, all learning is not done in school. Which is my point. And, good SAT scores will surmount a lot of "rules."

Of course, I'm an adult student my entrance requirements may not have been the same as a student entering out of high school. I realize different universities have different requirements and I would venture to say, perhaps, your friend did not do his homework. A good home-schooling family prepares years in advance for what the child plans to do upon "graduation" and makes sure they have covered all their bases. They must plan for university, the military, (yes, the Air Force now accepts home-schooled enlistees), or opening an art gallery.

Some families who home-school do so only up to high school then the children go to public school. There are some people who practice "un-school" who believe everything we need to know we learn by living, nurturing a child's natural curiosity, and who practice no formalized teaching plan. (For example, math is learned by grocery shopping and doing a budget.) Believe it, or not, these people, too, can end up living happy, productive lives - sans the state sanctioned twelve years of desk sitting. Will they be doctors? Probably not, but everybody doesn't need to be a doctor. The choices they make are as individual as their circumstances. But, you know what? If the kid wants to be a doctor, I guarantee you he, or she, will do whatever it takes to be one.

I don't understand why you think it's hubris for a parent to want to sacrifice his, and/or her, time to ensure their child gets the best possible education in the safest environment possible. It really is easier to put them on the bus in the morning and head off to work, or turn on Oprah.

No, home-schooling will not work for everyone, but it is the choice of the family to make, not anyone else's.

Here is a very interesting study on home-schooling you might be interested in:

http://epaa.asu.edu/epaa/v7n8/

I think you will find some of the statistics surprising and some fairly predictable.

[stanwyck]

60. You don't think it's hubris

for an individual to believe he/she knows just as much or not more than the collective educations of numerous teachers? Many with advanced degrees? And what about exposing the child to a multitude of different backgrounds? Teachers bring perspectives which enrich.
Do you do your own pediatrics? Your own electrical and plumbing? Your own dental work?
I find your idea very naive that a child will "do whatever it takes" to get into medical school. You must have no idea of the requirements....they're considerably more than doing grocery shopping. Try calculus, physics, chemistry, botany, biology. Face reality. The homeschooling parents I know couldn't pass an Algebra I exam.
"Not everybody needs to be a doctor". Fine. But wouldn't it be great if that decision wasn't made by Mom and Dad?
The theory may be enchanting. But what is the reality? Parents are handicapping their children because they "know better" than anyone else. And the child is the victim.
And, no, I'm not a teacheer. I'm just very thankful that I had so many excellent teachers in my life and so many inspiring classmates.
When I think of what these children will miss, I want to cry.

[Kimber Scott]

61. I'm glad you've had such wonderful experiences with teachers. I've had

a few good ones myself. What makes you think kids are being dragged kicking and screaming into home-schooling, though? I bet not as many as are dragged kicking and screaming into public school. As far as diversity, I think I covered that before. A child can meet a lot of people in a day outside a classroom.

Look, nobody says everybody needs to, should, or wants to be home-schooled, but if a family feels that is the right choice for them that is their decision. I've said that enough times. You do not have the right to make that decision for them, any more than they would have the right to tell you you have to home-school your own kids.

And, yes, I honestly believe if somebody wants to be a doctor, lawyer, scientist, pilot, butcher, baker, or candlestick maker they will do whatever it takes to do that - even if it means studying calculus, physics, chemistry, botany and biology. Whether it be with their parents, (who could very well be doctors themselves), with a tutor, at the local community college, where-ever, what-ever it takes.

[MeinaShaw]

26. Very well put!

[doc05]

52. I agree

Overwhelmingly, I think those parents who choose to home school are motivated and have good intent. Saying that it should be made harder to do just increases their headaches while realistically doing little to nothing to save this kid.

[left15]

21. seems like the system worked

Within 60 days (which probably includes 3 weeks of winter break) the problem was located and corrected. Home schooling isn’t to blame, only the crazy parent. What would have stopped him for saying we’re moving to Florida or Canada or Egypt, and not having to meet with any teachers?

The only way a school district know you have kids is by voluntary registration.

If you move to a new town, there’s no record you have kids, If your child turns 5, there no one running around with birth certificates asking why your child hasn’t been registered.

It seems like the system worked just fine.

[redqueen]

23. Yes, the system worked. It failed the disabled girl raped at school. n/t

[MeinaShaw]

25. It shouldn't be that easy to rape a kid - in school

Home schooling and what this guy did are completeley unrelated. Had he not taken her out of school on the pretense of home schooling he would have gotten to her another way, another time.

As for people being able to teach their kids at home, what the heck is wrong with that? At least they won't be getting raped by a gang of kids while a dozen or other kids watch and video tape it (if you get my point - "I wonder if this goes on nationwide? We would probably be mortified to know the actual numbers.")

[proud2BlibKansan]

1. I had a similar situation with a family I worked with

Mom was psychotic and abusive. When we finally got the attention of the local child protective services, they found a brother in the home who had not been in school for 5 years. He was seriously mentally ill and had received no therapy. Mom had moved so much that our school district didn't even know there was a brother.

So mom was given a week to get the brother enrolled in school and therapy was arranged with a psychiatric clinic. Before the week was up, mom moved out of state.

I will worry about those kids until the day I die.

[Auntie Bush]

2. Two bits these people were registered Rethugs. If the shoe fits...

[Spangle]

3. I'm impressed!

Seriously, I am. Lots of child abuse goes un-noticed. Some places dont' have such checks for homeschoolers.

Sorry, just because one bad parent decided to use the home schooling system, doesn't mean that home schooling should automaticly take the rap for this event.

[Horse with no Name]

4. There are alot of really good home schools

But I would guess for every good one there are at least 3 bad ones.
I just wish that people should have to apply for a license to home school and meet stringent qualifications. For some children out there, the school system is their only safety net.:(

[Name removed]

33. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[musette_sf]

5. And who punishes a child for "stealing food"?

Sounds like fundie nut jobs to me... starve a kid, then punish her for "stealing food"... because she's STEALING! The Bible says THOU SHALT NOT STEAL!

[truthisfreedom]

6. this puts my stomach in a knot. how can people be so incredibly cruel?

what the hell happens to people that they turn out so f***ed up?

[Vox_Reason]

8. Usually they were abused themselves.

And often such abuse was heaped upon them by monsters spouting religious justification for their inhumane treatment.

That's why many of us on the left are so wary of home schooling. I know there are many good home schooling parents and home schooled kids--but I know that a large percentage of those who choose to home school are doing so in an attempt to "rescue" their children from the "evil librul" public schools, so they can give their kids a "faith-based education". Yikes.

Ignorant teachers tend to yield ignorant students. And so the cycle continues....

[libodem]

9. this has been my biggest fear with home schooling

undetected child abuse.

[MeinaShaw]

27. Are you as afraid of kids getting raped in school, sex with their teachers

Seems like pretty selective reasoning on your part. Your logic does not follow (One child that was homeschooled was abused, therefore all children that are homeschooled are at risk, therefore I am afraid of homeschooling - all while I completely tune out abuses that take place with every bit as much frequency in school).

[stanwyck]

32. Well, there is the Yates home-schooling

tragedy. Five children murdered by their mother. Home-schooling is a way for abusers to shield their abuse. No nosy teachers who are required by law to report suspected abuse.

[Horse with no Name]

48. And Deanna Laney

who stoned her kids to death.
She homeschooled.

>>>snip
Like Yates, Laney was described as an "intensely devout woman." Unlike Yates, however, Laney apparently was more involved in a "typical" relationship with her religion. For example, Laney sang in a gospel group, according to news reports. Yates, remember, subscribed at the time of her killings to a particularly florid, Manichean form of religion. But both women home-schooled their children – a factor that doctors in the Yates trial focused on as one of a few that pushed her into madness. If we ever see a Laney capital murder trial – if there is no plea deal for a life sentence – look for home-schooling to play a role in any insanity defense offered by her attorneys.

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2003/05/12/news/opinion/courtwatch/main553543.shtml

[MeinaShaw]

59. All anecdotal - need to move beyond stereotypes nt

[frustrated_lefty]

64. valid worry.

Go to yahoo or google.

Type in the keywords: family, homeschool (+/- abuse).

Some of the info may put your mind at ease.

Some may not. Either way, you'll be in a better position to argue your point.

FL.

[Kali]

11. I would point out

when claims of messed up home-schooled in proportion to ok ones are made that probably an equal statistic could be pulled out of thin air regarding ok public schooled kids vs. messed up public schooled kids.

[Horse with no Name]

12. You'd be correct

The difference is...that home schooling limits the kids to who comes in contact with them, whereas in public school, even in an apathetic system...the child has the chance that an interested teacher, principal, janitor, friend, etc could make the phone call that could save their life.

[Geo55]

13. An' everyone is AGAST ! when the next

mentally tortured soul takes to the street and kills people....
Don' like "Big Brother" , but the kids have to be protected from sickos.....'jus 'cause ya can breed , don' mean you are qualified.

[youthere]

14. Oh this is garbage..

and just plain incorrecct. I live in Iowa and I homeschool. Yes you have to file a form, but your child still has to be registered in a school district. You have a form you have to fill out that must be signed by the superintendent of your district. And if you are working with a homeschooling assistant program you must meet with a certified teacher throughout the year. If you are not then your child has to be tested or you have to submit a portfolio of their work. This article makes it sound as though there are no regulations here and that is why the child was abused.Asif she'd been in a public school her psycho father wouldn't have abused her. What a load of BS.

[Geo55]

18. ah...........I think ya missed the point,

BECAUSE someone had to check on the kid is WHY they found out this guy is crackers.

[LizW]

19. It sounds to me like the regulations worked to save this child

This article is in no way an indictment of all homeschooling parents. It just shows that in this particular case, a horrible person used the system to isolate his child and abuse her. And I'm sorry, but if she had been in school there would have been less hours for him to abuse her and the abuse might have been discovered sooner.

As it is, thank goodness the regulations called for a visiting teacher, and thank goodness the teacher recognized a problem.

[MeinaShaw]

28. You say that after the story of the girl raped and videotaped in the Gym!!

Geeez!

[mopinko]

20. meanwhile, in the approved school-

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=102&topic_id=1389741&mesg_id=1389741

[qanda]

22. Exactly!!!!!

[redqueen]

24. THANK YOU!

I'm so sick of the automatic indictment of home-schooling, and the automatic approval of the school system.

Looks like the system of checking up with the students every couple weeks worked just fine.

However, the system of protecting kids while they're at school seems to be very broken.

My daughter (1st grade) complained of a male student pulling her pants down and grabbing her rear... the teacher's response? "Don't tattle."

:grr:

[slackmaster]

29. That was my first thought as well

The schools are supposed to educate and protect children when they are in school. If they can't handle that, how can people expect them to police the way parents treat their children at home?

:shrug:

Our public schools are in a terrible state.

[MeinaShaw]

30. You got that right!

And to the post a couple of clicks down, my daughter was picked on in the school too. Boys throwing stuff at her, pulling her hair, trying to get her to show them her breasts, knocking her books out of her hand. This went on for years and all the time we complained to the school. They did nothing until we filed suit against them.

The schools are far more dangerous in my experience than a home school situation would be.

[dhinojosa]

65. I don't see where she had to perform oral sex because she stole food?

How are you comparing these two? One in a middle school the ratio is like 30 students to 1 teacher. Things could slip easily there, and yeah in this case, really slip. But in a trailer with a 1 to 1 ratio, cmon! There is no way you can compare the two.

[BigEdMustapha]

34. How about this...

For all of you saying that the public school provided a "safety net" or a "check" for abuse - would you agree to let a Child Protective Services or other state govt official come into your house and check on your child during those early years where the child is not required to be in school? I propose that all children under the age of 5 receive monthly visits from the government to ensure they are being properly cared for, until the child's rightful guardian (the education system) can take over for the unqualified parents at age 5.

It's amazing how so many of us progressives here can scream bloody murder when something like the Patriot Act takes away rights and freedoms, but then turn into neo-con wannabes, saying that the govt or schools knows better than parents the minute homeschooling is mentioned.

[Horse with no Name]

36. I guess you advocate abuse

:shrug: I however, do not.
I am not advocating that the government make weekly or monthly checks on anyone.
Just a simple application when you make the decision to home school your child without any additional follow-up.
1. Are you a high school graduate? If not, what qualifications do you have to teach your child?
2. Do you have any outstanding records of proven child abuse or molestation?
If a parent can't answer these two questions appropriately, they have no business taking their child out of public school.
Children are still minors and it is the duty of the parent/school system and yes, even the government to make sure that they are educated since the child does not have a legal voice, and when they finally have a voice in what happens to them, then their formative years are gone and they have nothing but a worthless education or years of abuse behind them.
I'd rather we advocate that children in those situations only spend the first 12 years in the school system than their next 10-20 in the penal system.
As far as what happened at that school? Very tragic. There isn't any excuse for it. If that were my child or my child's school, then I would be pulling my child out of that school.

[Kimber Scott]

37. That is absolutely ridiculous.

So, maybe, before we all have kids we should have to pass a test? Prove we're high school graduates and check a box saying we've never molested anybody? Remember parents do teach their children, exlclusively, for the first five years of their life without any supervision. Unless, of course, they have to work and they have to take them to daycare where a stranger might... well, you know. But, hey, the stranger is licensed to work in the daycare, so all is well!

Give me a break.

[Horse with no Name]

38. Actually you seem to think that "your" children

are "your" possessions that you can do with what you will.
Guess what? That mentality went out in the 60's.
Children have rights. They are their own beings and when the parents do not protect their rights or have their best interests at heart, then the government or it's agencies has the obligation to remove them from that situation.
There are children who fall through the cracks in their first years--and that is a tragedy, but they are usually caught once they go to school. We had a child that was in one of those situations, who committed suicide at the age of 3 by drowning herself in the bathtub..it was her 2nd attempt. She was abused and neglected. It happens, no doubt whatsoever about that.
If you decide to place your child in daycare or pre-school, it is your duty as a parent to investigate the daycare you put them in. I never had a problem when my kids went to daycare, however, I know that some do.
Home schooling is great if that is the intended motive. If the parents can provide that those are their interests, fine, no problem. Home school to your hearts content. My business partner home schools her 5 children. That isn't what I have a problem with.
Children who are taken out of public schools to hide them away so their parents can abuse them freely without detection however,is a darker side of home schooling.
My position/politics is very consistent, however, many on here aren't. Torture and hiding people in Abu Ghraib--bad, torture and hiding children in home school--okay.
I don't advocate torture of prisoners at the hands of our government, and I don't advocate torture on defenseless children at the hands of their parents. I'm very consistent.

[Kimber Scott]

39. Ok. Here's a good solution:

At the moment of birth all children should be removed to the custody of the state. Who will, of course, better care for them.

And a three year old having the ability to formulate the opinion death is better than life - therefore commiting suicide, is ridiculous in itself. I would think, with your position on things, you'd be the first one to call this murder. I would.

[Horse with no Name]

41. Actually I think when this was prosecuted by Dallas County

it was adjudicated as negligent homicide.
I could care less that you find it ridiculous--my guess is that you have never touched the dead body or watched the harvest of a 3-yr olds organs whose body reflected years of abuse. Perhaps you should climb out of your lily white tower and realize that abuse happens everyday to "other people's" kids.
What is your role in stopping this? Do you belong to CASA? Are you a foster parent? Are you a nurse that has worked in a busy children's trauma unit that has seen abuse that would make your toes curl? Or do you just sit here languishing at your keyboard sipping cappucino and judge every circumstance with your own smug feelings--not realizing what really goes on in society outside of your home?Your position is that you wouldn't want to answer a couple of questions that might help spare a child untold abuse because it "inconveniences" you and you feel that the government should step out of parents raising their children. Do you own slaves also? How fucking moral you are.
If your solution is removing all kids at birth--fine, a little extreme and a whole lot crazy...but if you can't take care of "your" kids, then whatever.

[Kimber Scott]

43. ROFLMAO!

You know all about me, don't you? You sound like somebody I'd want watching over my four sons and two grandchildren. I mean, if I can get them down out of this tower and all. Do you have a form filled out? I want to make sure you can handle the job of raising my kids.

[cannabis_flower]

42. It may be true but...

I have a friend who was accused by her sister-in-law of neglecting her child by not feeding her. The incident came up when the child was visiting the sister-in-law and got sick with asthma.

She took the child to the hospital where the doctor wrote that the child was suffering from malnutrition. However, the mother had taken the child to the doctor numerous times and at one point had been told by the doctor that the child was underweight for her age, but backed down when the mother pointed out to the doctor that the child was also under height for her age - which was to be expected since the mother was 5'0" and the father was 5'8". She then pulled off the child's diaper and pinched her chubby butt and the doctor conceded that the child was not malnourished or suffering from failure to thrive like he had previously noted on her chart.

This would actually have been impossible by the time the sister-in-law took the child to the hospital because by this time the child was in kindergarten and was on the free breakfast/free lunch program along with the child eating at home. The child was a little thin because she had always been thin and ate like a bird and had recently been ill with asthma.

While this may not be the case with this child it bears noting that what someone is accused of is not always the way things are. There are always two sides to the story.

[earth mom]

44. Why is everyone so down on homeschooling?

Neither homeschooling or public schools are perfect. Who's to say which is better? Everyone knows that public schools are sorely lacking in this country. There is WAY too much emphasis on sports and popularity/social events than actual academics. Far too many kids in this country graduate without knowing how to read! Good Gawd-I learned more through my love of reading than anything I ever learned in school! And I well remember how miserable I was in school because I wasn't athletic or a popular social butterfly. Middle school (junior high) and high school were sheer misery for me-I wish that I'd had the option of being homeschooled back then-I know beyond a shadow of a doubt I would have been much happier.

Where we live there are "homeschool sources" which are like mini junior college campuses where kids can attend different classes on different days very much like college classes. This sounds ideal for my son and I'm pretty sure this that this is what will be best for him. I'm interested in homeschooling-not for religous reasons-far from it actually-but because I worry about the out and out THUGS in middle school and high school who bully and hurt kids that aren't exactly like them. I don't want my child exposed or vulnerable to them! Heck, I'd escort my kid every day to school to protect him-but the teachers don't like that idea-hell no! Why is that?! Should I cast aspersions on the teachers because they don't want me around? No. So why cast aspersions on parents who want to do what's in their childs best interests? That is SO wrong!

[Horse with no Name]

45. But you see

that's the way this topic has been hijacked.
I'm not against homeschooling at all. I just think there should be a couple of exclusions on who should be allowed to homeschool their children. If the parent doesn't have a high school education or cannot provide proof that they have the resources to educate (understandably there are people who dropped out for reasons beyond their control but are intelligent and capable), or if they have been previously proven to be abusers--they should not be allowed to home school their children.
Other than that--I think homeschool is fine. In another post on another day I said that properly homeschooled children have the educational advantage and public schooled children have the social advantage.
My only advocation is for the children who are put into homeschool to hide incest or abuse--not the normal family who decides to homeschool their children.

[redqueen]

46. Then why in another post did you say a better application

with no follow-up visits would be your 'solution'?

Ridiculous.

It seems as if you think that homeschooled children are more likely to be abused or molested. Do you have some statistics to back that assumption up?

[Horse with no Name]

47. There are no statistics kept because it isn't a regulated industry

So all that you have is case by case situations. And yes, I stand by having to fill out an application to homeschool your children. It shouldn't matter to the homes that are legit to answer a few questions(to protect a few or many doesn't really matter since one is too many) to keep kids from being put in situations that are not legit.

Since it became legal in North Carolina in 1985, the number of home school students has jumped from just a few hundred to more than 50,000. But there's been no change in the number of state employees overseeing the program - just three for the entire state.

Herman-Giddens is on the state task force that reviewed the Warren case. The conclusion: home school laws "allow persons who maltreat children to maintain social isolation in order for the abuse and neglect to remain undetected."

"They deliberately keep them out of the public eye because the children do have injuries that are visible, and they don't want them to be seen," she says. http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2003/10/13/eveningnews/main577817.

>>>>snip
"The genuine home schoolers are doing a great job with their children, but there is a subgroup of people that are keeping them in isolation, keeping them from public view because the children often do have visible injuries," says Herman-Giddens.
>>>>snip
A CBS News investigation found dozens of cases of parents convicted or accused of murder or child abuse who were teaching their children at home, out of the public eye.
>>>>snip
But it's hard to know how widespread abuse might be because the government doesn't keep track. It doesn't even know how many children are taught at home in this country.
>>>snip
In eight states, parents don't have to tell anyone they're home schooling. Unlike teachers, in 38 states and the District of Columbia, parents need virtually no qualifications to home school. Not one state requires criminal background checks to see if parents have abuse convictions.
http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2003/10/14/eveningnews/main578007.shtml

As I searched, I saw just as many articles in favor of homeschool as those opposed. It's one of those topics where there is good and bad.
However, please don't "assume" to know what I think. I don't think that homeschooled children are more abused--it's just harder to catch their abusers. Make no mistake, if any of these kids were in public schools, they would still be abused if their abusers weren't turned in. I am aware of that.
I just think that at minimum a cursory background check for abuse should be in order with minimum qualifications. I don't advocate they stay under the thumb of the government, but the children deserve a chance at a good life which homeschool can provide under the correct environment.


Edited for paragraph being deleted.

[redqueen]

50. I just think having follow-up visits are better than no follow-up visits.

Application or no, follow-up visits are good.

I think you might be shocked to find out how many people are capable of teaching their kids but who also beat them -- and they're intelligent enough to do so where you can't see marks, or to not leave marks.

[Horse with no Name]

53. uh I misunderstood your question

No I don't think the government should follow up after you put in an application and you pass. I don't think the application for homeschooling should be lengthy or overly invasive.
But I wouldn't do away with the school visits that are made to follow the progress of the kids. Sorry I was misunderstanding your question.

[jahyarain]

55. i know i'm about an hour late on this one but

i feel the uncontrollable need to correct your possesive noun.
my children are not "my possessions", they're my responsibilities.
and, yes, i have to educate them every night when they come home with the ignorance the school systems deem "education".

[Kali]

62. um - scary thinking there -

"It shouldn't matter to the homes that are legit to answer a few questions(to protect..." Like you shouldn't mind your house being searched or random road blocks if YOU AREN'T DOING ANYTHING WRONG. Sorry that's a slippery slope I don't think you really want to start. Why should you mind telephone taps if you aren't saying anything bad....

Gotta watch the intrusion of authority in the name of safety. Sorry but I don't think any government entity has any right to my personal affairs unless I have given them just cause. And keeping kids at home doesn't qualify in my book. Earlier you said something about not letting proven abusers home school. That is idiotic. Proven abusers shouldn't even have custody, much less be making schooling location choices.

[nonconformist]

49. This is not a problem with homeschooling.

This is a clear case of child abuse. And there are plenty of cases of abuse where the kid is enrolled in public schools.

In any event, that poor little girl. :(

[GoddessOfGuinness]

56. Thank you.

This was undoubtedly written by a journalist who is opposed to homeschooling.

[GoddessOfGuinness]

57. The fact that it's easy for parents to start homeschooling their kids

shouldn't even be an issue here. More paperwork won't discourage child abuse.

However, I don't see why parents and the children they homeschool can't be interviewed once or twice a year by a professional who can offer helpful advice, and be on the alert for children who are in fact being abused.

[frustrated_lefty]

63. Dear god,

How many of you know-it-alls actually have children? Public school was utter shite 20 years ago when I had to endure it. I'd seen students beaten bloody, phys ed teachers literally knocked out, heard about fellow students raped, knived and shot. That was 20 goddamn years ago.

We let our 12 yr old walk to a PARK last year to play. Before he made it there, he was beaten up, given a bloody lip, and had his favorite toys stolen. It shames me to admit, he was too embarrased to tell me about this. I only learned through his mom. My own son was embarrassed to admit this raw deal.

We homeschool now. We try and teach the kids to think for themselves, to question, deal with the "why" of things. Their mom covers literature and history, I handle math and science.

We home school for 2 reasons. We want our kids to be educated, and have the best possible future. And, we think the current public school system is one which will destroy any spark of vitality they may have.

If you want to put your kids through public eduation, more power to ya. If you don't, more power to ya too. If you're just mouthing off without the benefit of experience in this, well....*rude gesture*

The guy in this article, though, was clearly screwed in the head. He, imo, ought to be shot as a rabid dog.

[dhinojosa]

66. What? I got a good education in public schools....and yeah

I got beaten up..and I beat up other kids too. You learn how to pick your fights too. You even learn when to runaway (my fave), or just take it. Whether it is with punches or politics. Those are valuable lessons.

Take a read of Bill Clinton's book. You'll see what I mean.