Army reservist arrested, allegedly detained illegal immigrants

[Maddy McCall]

PHOENIX An Army reservist is in custody for allegedly holding seven Mexican nationals at gunpoint at a desolate Arizona rest stop.

Twenty-four-year-old Sergeant Patrick Haab remains locked up at Maricopa County jail where he's being held on a ten-thousand dollar cash bond.

Authorities say Haab was apparently acting on his own when he saw seven men pile into a sport utility vehicle on Interstate 8.

Haab allegedly ordered the seven undocumented workers from Mexico to lie on the ground or be shot.

http://www.kold.com/Global/story.asp?S=3202924

AND

Border Detention



PHOENIX (AP) - An Army reservist was arrested on charges of holding seven Mexicans at gunpoint at a rest stop in southern Arizona, where civilian efforts to watch for illegal immigrants have raised fears of vigilante violence.

Sgt. Patrick Haab, 24, was apparently acting alone and not involved with the Minuteman Project, which has organized volunteers for a monthlong effort to watch for immigrants and drug smugglers along the border.

Officials said Haab used his vehicle to stop the seven men from driving away from an interstate rest stop Sunday, then ordered them to lie on the ground or be shot.

He was being held on seven counts of aggravated assault with a deadly weapon.


``Even law enforcement has to have probable cause before taking people out of their cars and telling them to lie on the ground.

http://cnn.netscape.cnn.com/ns/news/story.jsp?id=2005041309330001581581&dt=20050413093300&w=APO&coview=

More at both links.

[TX-RAT]

1. He broke the law, he suffers the consequences.

He had no authority to stop or detain.

[rocktivity]

2. And so it begins

One accidental shooting, coming right up!

:headbang:
rocknation

[Name removed]

5. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Boredtodeath]

7. "likely not BUT COULD BE TERRORISTS"

Based on that "evidence," you could be a terrorist as well.

We live in a society governed by the rule of law. What you see here is complete and uncontained lawlessness.

Is that what you want? The streets to become shooting galleries with "citizen arrest?"

You cannot conduct a citizen arrest without a reasonable suspicion of illegality - and being "brown skinned" isn't illegal - yet.

7 people getting into a car. That's all he saw. Except they were "brown skinned."

edit:
Had the number wrong; 7 not 8.

[Maddy McCall]

8. Oh the irony of your profile comment.

[Boredtodeath]

9. Sadly, this DUer would have my grandson in custody

Because his father is of mexican descent and has brown skin. My grandson gets into cars too.

[Name removed]

10. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Name removed]

13. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[TX-RAT]

16. Citizen arrests are legal.

Only if a felony is committed in your presence. There is some wiggle room when it comes to disorderly conduct ( your state may vary ), but thats about it.
Sorry 7 people getting into a car is not a felony. He committed the crime now he gets to deal with Joe.

[Sterling]

34. Were they in fact illegal?

If they were I give the guy thanks, if not he is a douchebag.

[Maddy McCall]

11. FYI--on DU, editing after you receive responses is frowned upon.

You should notate in your post exactly what you edited.

And, by the way, here's another point for you to ponder: If this was a "lawful citizen's arrest," why is the "citizen" now the one under arrest?

[mutus_frutex]

19. Your argument is illogical.

You seem to be in favor of legal immigration. So, if all those illegals were let in legally, would you be happy?

By the way, I'm a legal immigrant that does what few of your fellow countrymen/women can or want to do, I'm a theoretical chemical physicist. I do my job for a rather low salary. It is, without a doubt, a form of outsourcing. I wish it was outsourcing, with my salary in my home country I would be very happy. I would miss some of the nice things here, but my family would be very happy to have me there.

[Sterling]

35. How nice for you.

It would be wonderful if we could just send all of the jobs in the US oversea's. Then all of us Americans can just sit on our asses because of course everyone knows Americans are all rich people who hate to work. :eyes:

[Redstone]

20. Oh, balls. This was not a "citizen's arrest."

This was assault with a deadly weapon. Is there ANYTHING you anti-immigration people won't try to justfy in the name of your crusade?

Redstone

[Maddy McCall]

3. MORE (Guy is an Iraq War vet)

Haab, an Iraq war veteran who moved to Arizona four months ago, was apparently acting on his own when he saw seven men pile into a sport utility vehicle on Interstate 8.

Authorities say Haab allegedly ordered the seven undocumented workers from Mexico to lie on the ground or be shot.

Deputies who arrested Haab on Sunday reported that he used his car to block the suspected immigrants from leaving the rest stop and ordered them to exit the vehicle and get onto the ground.

Deputies said Haab ordered another driver to help him and gave the driver a second gun to hold on the immigrants while he called police.

http://kvoa.com/Global/story.asp?S=3204077

More.

[Maddy McCall]

4. MORE (He carries his glock everywhere he goes)

Case sounds vigilante alarm
Army reservist accused of detaining 7 immigrants

Robert Anglen and Susan Carroll
The Arizona Republic
Apr. 13, 2005 12:00 AM

A lone Army reservist accused of holding seven Mexican nationals at gunpoint this week at a desolate Arizona rest stop has renewed concerns about vigilante justice and violence along the Arizona-Mexico border.

The arrest of Sgt. Patrick Haab, 24, comes as various civilian groups embark on self-described border-patrol missions to target undocumented workers and help stop the flow of illegal immigration along the busiest illegal crossing on the Southwest border.

Haab, an Iraq war veteran, was apparently acting on his own when sheriff's deputies say he saw seven men pile into a sport utility vehicle on Interstate 8 and ordered them to lie on the ground or be shot. But Maricopa County Sheriff Joe Arpaio said his actions were dangerous and illegal, underscoring the risks posed by citizens patrolling the border and taking the law into their own hands.

"Even law enforcement has to have probable cause before taking people out of their cars and telling them to lie on the ground. . . . He threatened to kill them," Arpaio said. "He did not have the right to do what he did. How did he know they were illegal aliens?"

snip/

Cline said Haab is a "very typical and normal guy" who liked to carry handguns and often wore a Glock pistol in a holster.

Edited to add link: http://www.azcentral.com/arizonarepublic/local/articles/0413detain13.html

[Boredtodeath]

6. Return to the Days of John Wayne and the Wild, Wild West

That's what these idiots are aiming for.

This man never grew up - he just turned is holstered play guns into real ones.

Our streets are about to become shooting ranges across the US; see Florida.....

[slackmaster]

22. John Wayne didn't live in the wild, wild West

He was born in Iowa and lived in Hollywood and Santa Monica most of his life.

People have always carried guns in Arizona. It's legal there and always has been, except in towns like old Tombstone where it was prohibited.

[gratuitous]

12. So, the detention is "alleged"

But the folks he allegedly detained are "illegal immigants." Odd, I would think that that locution would have to have some sort of administrative finding to back it up.

Shorter version: White guy is innocent until proven guilty; brown guys are guilty until proven innocent.

[SheepyMcSheepster]

14. noticed that too

i am curious as to how he found out they were undocumented and if that really is the case?

[Sterling]

38. Maybe they were actaully illegal?

Maybe that is why it was presented as such? Maybe we should follow up and find out for sure before we form an opinion? IMO if they were illegal this guy did us all a favor. If not he fucked up.

Bottom line is if fat cats were not keeping the Gov from doing it's job this guy would not have to worry about these kinds of things.

[Hobarticus]

39. Illegals or no, he doesn't have the authority for ID checks, or detention.

Think about it...citizen's arrest is one thing...you see someone coming out of a bank with a gun and ski mask and a bag of cash, you can try to stop them. They're likely committing a crime right before your very eyes. The law's on your side.

But approaching someone and asking for their ID is not up to a private citizen.

What would YOU do if someone walked up to you and demanded ID, without providing ID themselves that names them as a member of law enforcement?

What would prevent any Joe Blow from approaching peaceful protesters at an event, demanding ID, and holding them at gunpoint? Or anyone on the street, at any given time, because he suspects they're up to no good?

Doesn't matter after the fact what their story was....he has no authority to do what he did, period. Seven men climbing into a vehicle is suspicious, true...then call the cops, not play John Wayne.

Cops have that authority, to demand ID and detain. There's a reason why private citizens don't, and this is an example why.

That's the problem with this whole vigilante thing...now you've got a bunch of gun slingers and law-and-order fetishists who THINK they're the law.

[MisterP]

48. like that fake policeman who absconded with several wallets recently

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

56. LOL..what's next? People pulling guns on people because they LOOK LIKE

they are a drug dealer?

Real hard to respect your opinion on this one.

[bobthedrummer]

15. Expect some RW celebrity like Ted Nugent to make propaganda

out of this-to the RW Sgt. Haab is a hero.
Get down or "get shot", it doesn't get any more American than that.:sarcasm:

[Maddy McCall]

17. Amazingly, some DUers would do the same thing.

:shrug:

[Sterling]

37. Yes and if the party would have a different policy than the pukes

we may win an election eventually. If the Dem's would take a populist stand against illegal immigration we would get back the Joe six packs and half of the red states. Born to lose is what we are.

[MrTriumph]

49. Bush loves open borders- it is the Republican way to keep wages down.

Heaven forbid we stick up for American workers!

[SemiCharmedQuark]

50. Why should they? We don't want the "racist asshole" vote.

Just like we don't want the "anti-choice" vote. What is the fucking point of winning if you have to become just like those you're fighting against to do so.

[phusion]

18. Wow...

What a nutcase.

1) What if they are citizens?

2) What if they have work visas?

Just because they have brown skin and like to travel in large groups does not mean you can point your pistol at them!

Glad he is being punished and really surprised anyone can defend this (see above comment).

[Javaman]

21. Ahh, isn't it just wonderful, the precedent those minutemen set??

It's just wonderful to know that any moron with a mission and a gun can go out and hunt up some illegals.

Call me crazy, but doesn't it say in the 2nd Amendment that only the US Gov't can establish a militia?

But then again, who am I? Just a rational thinking American without a gun.

Boy, am I a kook or what?

[oneold1-4u]

23. Sometimes intelligence arrives in time

Most of the property owners on the border gave up notifying INS years ago about the hundreds of trespassers from the south "invading" their property and this nation! I once saw 11 men crammed into the back of a small PU under a canopy. I actually fed them in a small remote roadside cafe. They were each allowed 1 pancake and coffee and the driver paid the tab. I knew they were illegals and that part didn't bother me. Their being abused did! I called the OR state police, when they returned to the road, and was more or less told to mind my own business! This has been the program for so many years that most people who might possibly be concerned, gave up long ago on any INS law enforcement!
I, too hate the idea of persons needing to become vigilantes, but as government becomes more destructive of individual needs and rights, losing focus of important laws, there may be more!

[Moderator]

24. kick to combine

[question everything]

25. Reservist accused of detaining Mexicans

Reservist accused of detaining Mexicans

PHOENIX – Authorities said yesterday that an Army reservist was arrested for holding seven Mexicans at gunpoint in southern Arizona, where civilian efforts to watch for illegal immigrants have raised fears of vigilante violence.

Sgt. Patrick Haab, 24, was apparently acting alone Sunday and not involved with the Minuteman Project, which has organized volunteers to watch for illegal immigrants along the border. Officials said Haab used his vehicle to stop the seven men from driving away from an interstate rest stop Sunday, then ordered them to lie on the ground or be shot.

Associated Press

From http://www.signonsandiego.com/uniontrib/20050414/news_1n14region.html

[LiberallyInclined]

26. has the reservist spent any time in iraq?

that's how he's probably been trained to handle the "browns".

[Enraged_Ape]

27. Ship his kiester back to Iraq

In fact, ship all these border cowboys to Iraq, since they love guns and violence so much. They should all be over there supporting our troops.

[question everything]

31. Exactly

Put all of them in a real battle ground face to face with others armed as they are

[Sterling]

36. I say bring home the guys in Iraq and put them on the border.

That way they are actually protecting the US and not raping an oil rich nation that is no threat to us.

Funny how the elite in this countries plan works is it not? Don't defend the border but send the army clear around the world to control countries most of us will never see. Oil=Iraq so we need troops there, cheap labor=Mexico so in spite of the law and damage to our job market we must not defend that line.

I think it is time more Americans took matters into our own hands. It would not be the first time. The country was founded by people who took matters into their own hands. When the gov is corrupt sometimes people have to pick up the slack.

[thebigidea]

42. I wonder how many families would be shot to death at checkpoints...

... old habits die hard.

"After a lengthy investigation, the Department of Homeland Security concluded that the border agents made no mistake in exterminating a family of seven for travelling slightly over 10 miles per hour 2 miles from a checkpoint. Warnings were given and ignored, claims border patrol agent "Happy" Harry Hysterical; who was reinstated today after being temporarily suspended for all of three hours."

[Zorra]

43. Great idea, let's bring them home today and let them do something

constructive and economically sensible for our country.

If we brought them home today and put them on Border Guarding Duty, we won't need to hire any more Border Patrol, we won't be spending a billion dollars a day in Iraq, Americans won't be senselessly getting killed and maimed, the Minutemen would be out of a "job", American workers would have more jobs, the cost of detaining and 1,000,000 captured immigrants per year will be cut to a fraction,

etc. etc.

The more I think about it, the better your idea seems.

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

28. Yeah...let's distance it from the Minutemen project despite the fact

that they are out in the desert with guns and that is where the nutcase got the idea.

[gratuitous]

29. Hmmm, it appears the language has changed

Yesterday, the story was that this goof had "allegedly" "detained" a bunch of "illegal" immigrants. His actions were given the dodge of "alleged" while his prisoners were automatically designated "illegal". Now, he's just accused of detaining Mexicans, without reference to their immigration status, if any.

[jukes]

30. give me that goodole vigilante justice

whars mah lynchin' lariat?


"klanassed nazi robot"...gibson

[AzDar]

32. You know this idjit is in trouble when Joe "I'll- violate- your- civil-

rights-at-the-drop-of-a-hat-to-feed-my-own-insatiable-need-for-publicity" Arpaio is on the evening news citing 'Posse Comitatus', and pointing out that that guy has changed his story multiple times.
What a freakin' mess.

[Sterling]

33. He deserves a reward.

nt

[atreides1]

41. I've read your posts

The problem isn't the Democrats, it's an administration that panders to the Hispanic community for votes. It's companies that are never
punished for their hiring of those who cross our borders illegally.

This guy had no right to threaten those men with deadly force, what he should have done is to take down the description and license plate number of the vehicle and reported it to the Border Patrol, the Sheriff's Department, and the Arizona DPS.

By the way he's getting his reward, only it's for acting stupid. If he had done this in the proper and legal way he would be getting a pat on the back for being a concerned citizen, now he's being used as a poster child for how not to do something.

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

45. Un motherfucking real

The guy deserves a reward for holding people at GUNPOINT and making them lay on the ground? He deserves a swift kick in the ass.

[MrTriumph]

51. Selective enforcement of the law

Let's see, millions of Mexicans enter the US illegally and take jobs from Americans, no big deal....

Someone tries to help enforce immigration law and he's in trouble.

Got it.

[SemiCharmedQuark]

52. Yeah, someone with absolutely no authority threatens 7 people with a gun

What was I thinking :eyes:

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

55. No...some stupid fucknut pulls a gun on 7 people with his only cause being

that they are Mexican and he is in trouble.

When was the last time you applied for a job picking onions btw?

[Hobarticus]

40. He deserves seven counts of aggravated assault with a deadly weapon.

[CheshireCat]

44. I am sooooooooo sick of

politicians, the media, and American citizens putting the blame for illegal immigration on the shoulders of those immigrants who come here illegally looking for work.


WAKE UP, PEOPLE!


This problem could quickly become insignificant it the leaders of the US really wanted to stop it. Here is what the US could do:

Aggressively pursue corporations, small & large businesses, and anyone who hires persons that are illegal. When a business or an individual are caught hiring illegals, throw the book at them.

Fines work well with smaller businesses or upscale folk hiring gardeners and nannies.

With large corporations, the fines should be high enough to make a difference or jail time should be given.

Maybe a 3 strikes law is needed. Lists of these employers should be posted on the internet and newspapers. These employers should no longer be awarded contracts with the government at any level. (Federal, State, County, City)

Going after those providing the jobs helps us in more than one way.

First, if there are no jobs for those persons crossing the border, then most will not come here.

Now the jobs will go to Americans and the employer will have to pay at lease minimum wage. The truth of the matter is that Americans do want these jobs, but they want a fair wage (or at least minimum wage).

This administration claims to believe in and practice a "free-market" economy, but look closely and you will see that they only abide by the market when it works in their favor.

Now the market is telling them that wages will have to be raised on jobs in agriculture, as well as many other jobs. (Janitorial work, nannies, gardeners, house keepers). But what do the CEO's, business owners and others do?

They welcome illegal workers because they don't have to play by the rules with them. They can get away with treating them little better than they would a slave.

Of course, the government is doing the bidding of big business and doesn't really want to put an end to this situation. They don't care about the negative effect on American workers.

We must work together to force our elected officials to clamp down on business that hire illegal immigrants. Go after those who provide jobs for illegal immigrants and make them pay in for breaking the law in such a manner that they will not do it again.

Will this completely solve the problem? Of course not, but would make the problem so much smaller that viable solutions will be easier to come by.

[MrTriumph]

53. And maybe the Mexican gov't would have to change to create jobs!

Well, we wouldn't want the rich folks who control Mexico to have to change their system, right? It is so much easier to ask their justifiably disgruntled citizens to sneak into the US.

[left15]

58. How do you know if you are hiring an "illegal"?

I work in a small manufacturing plant, with a largely hispanic workforce.

To get new employees, we use a temp service, a majority of the individuals sent from the temp service are Hispanic. We require the temp services to check their Social security number. (although many temp services don't unless you ask them to) 90 days later when we go to hire the individuals, 25% fail a duplicate social sceurity check. They basically fail because their SS number shows up as being used in another states at the same time. Per the law, they get 3 business days to fix it or we can't hire them.

What about the rest of our workforce, should I check all my hardworking long term skilled employees every month to see who I can fire?

Other than running a SS number check, how else do I find out if they are illegal?

on edit: the Rumor, and I stress Rumor as I have only heard this 4th hand is that valid papers can be bought for $750.

[Daphne08]

46. Is anyone else here old enough to remember these kinds

of strange incidents back in the late 60's and early 70's?

Sometimes (not often, but enough times to be noticed by the public and the press) when stressed-out battle-hardened Vietnam veterans would return to the states, they would exhibit 'seemingly' eccentric behaviors directly related to the stress of being in combat for so long.

It was very sad but it was also very scary back then because they would suddenly 'go off' with no warning. I had direct experience with one such veteran and I never faulted him... rather I faulted the VA for NOT addressing the problem.

I don't know whether this incident could be related to Iraq or not, but if our government doesn't aggressively counsel... and seek to help our returning veterans, we may experience some of the same kinds of problems we had back then.

[iverglas]

47. oh look, it's a

"law-abiding gun owner".

Well, at least he was a "law-abiding gun owner" ... up until he broke the law by threatening to gravely injure / kill some people with his gun. And I mean, as far as we know, since he'd apparently never been caught breaking the law before.

Why wouldn't anybody want this guy (not to mention his pal) wandering the streets with a pistol in his pants, eh? Plainly he's making the world safer, a true sheepdog for all the sheep in his vicinity. Well, white English-speaking sheep, anyhow.

Oh, who knows; maybe he didn't actually have a permit to have the pistol in his pants. There presumably wouldn't have been any reason why he couldn't have got one in Texas, though.

http://www.azcentral.com/arizonarepublic/local/articles/0413detain13.html

Deputies who arrested Haab indicated on jail forms that he was "mentally disturbed." But Haab's longtime friend said he sounded rational and collected when they talked by phone after his arrest.

"He sounded like he normally does," said Mike Cline, 23, of Mesa. "He sounded like he does when he is dealing with a problem, like, this is a situation and we have to deal with it."

... He said his friend acted like a soldier, assessing the decision and taking quick action, just like he was trained to do.

Too damned bad the action he took was a serious crime.

"Taking quick action, just like he was trained to do." I just love this, I really do just love this. That's the mantra of the rkba-heads in the gun dungeon. Armed "civilians", level-headed, skilled and socially responsible, accurately taking out bad guys trying to shoot rooms full of schoolchildren or restaurants full of families.

I'll have to remember this one next time I point out that it's not their aim I'm worried about, or even necessarily their lack of a criminal record or mental disorder; it's their good judgment, or lack thereof.

What a truly fine example of a pretty complete lack of judgment on the part of someone I wouldn't trust within a mile of me armed with a pea-shooter.

[SemiCharmedQuark]

54. Now he claims to be the victim!

http://www.azcentral.com/news/articles/0413az-border-detention13-ON.html

"I believe I'm a victim," said Haab, who spent 11 months in Iraq but declined to discuss his duty or location there, except to say that he takes medication for combat stress and lost a close friend in a roadside bombing overseas.
advertisement


"This could have been a very serious confrontation," Maricopa County Sheriff Joe Arpaio said. Haab broke the law by taking it into his own hands and his claim of being a victim "doesn't pan out," he said.

"I never used force on them, I never threatened them, I never cocked the hammer," said Haab, who is assigned to the 415th Civil Affairs Battalion from Kalamazoo, Mich. He said he acted in self-defense, thinking the men were going to tackle him as they got within about 10 feet."

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

57. OMG even whacked out Sheriff Joe is against him

and I never thought I'd agree with Sheriff Joe about ANYTHING!

[SemiCharmedQuark]

59. LOL!