Eureka! Extraordinary discovery unlocks secrets of the ancients

[DoYouEverWonder]

17 April 2005

Thousands of previously illegible manuscripts containing work by some of the greats of classical literature are being read for the first time using technology which experts believe will unlock the secrets of the ancient world.

Among treasures already discovered by a team from Oxford University are previously unseen writings by classical giants including Sophocles, Euripides and Hesiod. Invisible under ordinary light, the faded ink comes clearly into view when placed under infra-red light, using techniques developed from satellite imaging.

http://news.independent.co.uk/world/science_technology/story.jsp?story=630166



Decoded at last: the 'classical holy grail' that may rewrite the history of the world

17 April 2005

For more than a century, it has caused excitement and frustration in equal measure - a collection of Greek and Roman writings so vast it could redraw the map of classical civilisation. If only it was legible.

Now, in a breakthrough described as the classical equivalent of finding the holy grail, Oxford University scientists have employed infra-red technology to open up the hoard, known as the Oxyrhynchus Papyri, and with it the prospect that hundreds of lost Greek comedies, tragedies and epic poems will soon be revealed.

In the past four days alone, Oxford's classicists have used it to make a series of astonishing discoveries, including writing by Sophocles, Euripides, Hesiod and other literary giants of the ancient world, lost for millennia. They even believe they are likely to find lost Christian gospels, the originals of which were written around the time of the earliest books of the New Testament.

The original papyrus documents, discovered in an ancient rubbish dump in central Egypt, are often meaningless to the naked eye - decayed, worm-eaten and blackened by the passage of time. But scientists using the new photographic technique, developed from satellite imaging, are bringing the original writing back into view. Academics have hailed it as a development which could lead to a 20 per cent increase in the number of great Greek and Roman works in existence. Some are even predicting a "second Renaissance".

http://news.independent.co.uk/world/science_technology/story.jsp?story=630165

[lovuian]

1. I think this was predicted by Cayce ...

finding the secrets of the Ancients!!!

[DELUSIONAL]

7. Son of a gun -- I just posted earlier about Cayce

-- it was a pessimistic post -- doubting that he was correct about finding the libraries of the ancients. Humm perhaps I need to re-read some of his predictions??

He predicted that a vast library would be found under the Sphinx.

[Toots]

53. Yes it was between the paws of the sphinx

and they have located an empty chamber right where Cayce predicted but have not yet opened the chamber. Not sure what the hold up is.

[progressivejazz]

64. So I guess Cayce didn't predict this find, then.

It wasn't found where he said it would be.

That's the danger in making unambiguous predictions. Most charlatans make their predictions ambiguous enough that anything close will be considered a "hit" by their followers. It would really be stretching it to consider this one a hit, since he said it would be found elsewhere. But some will, anyway.

[pie]

71. Speculation: Zahi Hawass has already unearthed the contents

I also believe untold wisdom lies in
the works he has uncovered.
I believe some might refer to it
as The Hall of Records.

[Occulus]

85. I think I've heard about that

as well as a chamber in one of the pyramids that hasn't been opened. I think I remember hearing or reading that some ancient Egyptian writings pointed to the chamber holding Great Knowledge of some sort.

I could well be off my rocker, though.... it was a long time ago I heard that.

[roguevalley]

2. This is incredible. Very, very wonderful news. More books to buy

some day. Soon I hope.

[jdj]

75. amazing where they were found, too...rubbish dump???

maybe they'll find all the squashed news stories in a dump somewhere thousands of years from now.

[KittyWampus]

3. Nothing Is Ever Lost

[soothsayer]

6. that's why I love ebay!

[KittyWampus]

14. I Forgot To Add... EXCEPT OUR CAR KEYS!

:)

[DELUSIONAL]

4. I am looking forward to reading (translations) of

these ancient manuscripts.

I've seen a couple of Greek plays and would like to see more -- from the newly "revealed" manuscripts.

But the US won't be funding this -- too busy funding death and destruction of the world.

For the US -- we are really in a dark ages -- I wonder how many high school teachers are taking their English classes to see Greek Classic Plays -- like my English teacher did? I would not want to be a teenager today.

[DoYouEverWonder]

5. BushCo doesn't want people finding out about these documents

it just might prove that their fundie christian beliefs are based on bs.

[AwakeAtLast]

38. Whether these documents come out or not

their fundie christian beliefs are still bs. :D

:hi:

[evlbstrd]

11. My daughter is a theater major

and becoming well-versed in the various traditions from Greek through Shakespeare and Commedia del Arte, and on and on.
She's a very talented comedic actress, and as we all know, the comics are the best tragics.
Edit to add the point that the classics live.

[LifeDuringWartime]

21. ha

ive never gone to a play with an english class

[soothsayer]

8. This is so cool! Now if they can just translate Etruscan, that

would be fantastic, too!

[icymist]

9. Now we can put the New Testament back into a ring binder!

Nothing like throwing more gas on the fire, eh?

[tkmorris]

10. I would LOVE to be in on this

Just imagine what they might find! I really have wonder just what those "lost Christian gospels" might contain. That alone could turn orthodox Christian dogma on it's head. And History! Atlantis might be proven to be more than a figment of Homers imagination after all. There is no end to the unanswered questions about the ancient world which might be answered.

[daleo]

12. New gospels should be interesting.

I wonder how the fundamentalists will like them? It should make for a 'lively debate'.

[DoYouEverWonder]

17. Oh I expect

they'll like them about as much as the Nag Hammadi find, which they've pretty much ignored or try to discredit.

[Orrex]

19. Obviously

If these recovered works don't agree with the ineffable Word du Jour, then these ancient documents are clearly forgeries, cleverly crafted millennia ago expressly to lead the flock astray in our godless, gay-loving, liberal-media-ridden society.

[HysteryDiagnosis]

20. They'll just say that Clinton had something to do with their

writing.... it's all his fault and the like..... heh heh heh....

[Neshanic]

33. I'll say. Morans 1: 1-25. And give not to the pink haired bimbo....

[mtnester]

46. I predict any "new gospels" found in a rubbish heap

won't make the fundamentalists happy

:0

[malmapus]

56. could of been early fundamentalists that put them there =D

eom

[newscott]

90. The Gospel according to Peter

As written by same.

"This Jesus guy, what a schmuck!"

[vixengrl]

13. I find this massively exciting.

When reading history or mythology-related books, sometimes I feel like something is missing when I see a little note that says it's based on such and such a work, which is lost. This will "scratch the itch" for a lot of historians and history buffs.

[Pithy Cherub]

15. Impressive! Want everything to be wide open

and not kept in some secret scholars only enclave. This historical find is just fantastic! :bounce:

[lyonn]

16. What happened to the Dead Sea Scrolls?

More than 10 years ago we heard of some of the transcribing and even had a video on different peoples' opinions, then nothing more. Was it too hot to handle? That is my guess.

[DoYouEverWonder]

18. The Dead Sea Scrolls were finally

made available to the public. Here are a couple of links:


DEAD SEA SCROLLS: TEXTS

http://www.webcom.com/~gnosis/library/scroll.htm


The Nag Hammadi Library

http://www.webcom.com/~gnosis/naghamm/nhl.html

[daleo]

22. The links look interesting. n/t

[lyonn]

25. Thanks!

Checking it out now.

[DrRang]

47. Ever read the Gospel of Thomas?

It was a part of the Nag Hammadi find. Really, it's so very different from the four approved Gospels. Almost more like Buddhism. Nothing about Heaven or Hell, not much about Christ being the Son of God. Mostly about the duty to seek truth and enlightenment. No wonder the fundies have tried to squash it.

[DoYouEverWonder]

48. Yes,

I'm trying to read all of them.

Before I found the Nag Hammadi library, I thought I was agnostic. Then I realize I'm actually a gnostic. To me, these folks knew what christianity was supposed to be about.

[SlowDownFast]

59. more emphasis on the female aspect

of God all throughout the Nag, too.

There is a part in the Gospel of Phillip where it is reported that Jesus used to kiss Magdalene on the ? often and the other diciples were jealous.

One of the documents discovered at Nag Hammadi is the Gospel of Philip, in which Mary Magdalene is a key figure. It has been the cause of one of the most controversial claims ever made about her.

<<During their long burial in the desert, some of the books were attacked by ants. In this Gospel, the ants made a hole in a very crucial place.
The text says:
And the companion of the <...> Mary Magdalene. <...> loved her more than all the disciples, and used to kiss her often on her <...>. The rest of the disciples <...>. They said to him "Why do you love her more than all of us?" The Savior answered and said to them, "Why do I not love you like her? When a blind man and one who sees are both together in darkness, they are no different from one another. When the light comes, then he who sees will see the light, and he who is blind will remain in darkness."
The 'lacuna', or gap, which hides where Jesus kissed Mary has tantalised scholars for decades.>>

http://www.bbc.co.uk/religion/religions/features/biblemysteries/mary.shtml

[Dervill Crow]

60. So much for getting any work done today.

These links are way too interesting.

[Just Me]

97. The Gospel of Thomas,...comforts me.

It just seems more spiritually pure and real to me.

"If those who lead you say to you, 'See, the kingdom is in the sky', then the birds of the sky will precede you. If they say to you, 'It is in the sea,' then the fish will precede you. Rather, the kingdom is inside of you, and it is outside of you. When you come to know yourselves, then you will become known, and you will realize that it is you who are the (children) of the living father. But if you will not know yourselves, you dwell in poverty and it is you who are that poverty."

Beautiful stuff!!!

[spacelady]

83. Exhibit

The Dead Sea Scrolls Exhibit is right here in Mobile Alabama,
& has been extended into mid-May due to popular demand. Some of the interpretations in the Mobile Register have been very explicit...

[Algorem]

23. Any hot porno?

[DoYouEverWonder]

24. I think

it's past your bedtime?

[Runcible Spoon]

28. hmmm,,didn't see Sappho mentioned...

;)

[Algorem]

31. and they were just looking for a little light reading

[ninkasi]

40. Look at related links over to the right for the story

You will see one which says "Decoded at last, the classical "holy grail" that may help rewrite the history of the world"

In that link, it mentions "The classical corpus is like a jigsaw puzzle picked up at a jumble sale - many more pieces missing than are there. Scholars have always mourned the loss of works of genius - plays by Sophocles, Sappho's other poems, epics. These discoveries promise to change the textual map of the golden ages of Greece and Rome."

So we might get to see Sappho's other poems, after all. That should give the fundies a big thrill, don't you think?

[Lydia Leftcoast]

74. A classics major once told me that some of Sappho's poems

were discovered in papyri in Egypt, papyri that had been used to wrap around the mummies of crocodiles.

Some archaeologists were cataloguing this cache of mummified crocodiles (no, I"m not making this up), when one of them noticed that there was writing on the wrappings. They turned out to be some previously unknown poems of Sappho, preserved and found in this odd way.

Preservation of literary and historical records in the ancient world was quite hit-or-miss.

[Runcible Spoon]

89. crocodiles??!!

that's crazy! cats MAYBE I could see the connection, but crocodiles?? :crazy:

[Moochy]

91. Paper Mache ?

I picture some archaelogist in the future reading the symbolism in the particular headlines on newspaper used in paper mache art works.

Or, put another way, what is the signifigance of the news wrapping my fish and chips?

:)

[Mrs. Overall]

26. YES! This makes my day!!! n/t

[ReadTomPaine]

27. This is one of the most important breakthroughs of our times.

I have some experience in this area, and I'm speechless after reading this.

RTP

[NIGHT TRIPPER]

35. Agreed= this may be one of the BIGGEST things EVER in our history!

The only thing is watching our for "censorship" of any new truths.

Isn't there some recent book about discovering new documents that discredit the traditional views of the Christian Religion?

Davinci Code?

I didn't read it but doesn't it have something to do with this type of thing?

[pelagius]

95. Minored in Classics myself and I agree wholeheartedly...

...that this is more than the discovery of a lifetime. It could even spark a new Renaissance.

[icymist]

29. There might be some bias at work here.....

From the article:
Oxford academics have been working alongside infra-red specialists from Brigham Young University, Utah. Their operation is likely to increase the number of great literary works fully or partially surviving from the ancient Greek world by up to a fifth. It could easily double the surviving body of lesser work - the pulp fiction and sitcoms of the day.

How can we keep the religious bias away from true academics when the 'specialists' come from a university funded by such? Will the public ever know the truth?

[tanyev]

84. Oh, good grief.

They must be desperately looking for something that will support even one claim made in the ridiculous Book of Mormon.

[Zhade]

93. Yeah...kinda hard to trust a cult to not censor anything contradictory.

Joseph Smith created the cult out of whole cloth (sorry, Mormon DUers, that's the truth, and I used to be one) - I tend to doubt that the LDS church will actually allow anything that contradicts its conservative foundation of bullshit to slip through.

BYU's involvement concerns me greatly.

[Straight Shooter]

30. Timing is everything.

Please let there be wisdom which is so irrefutable as to reverse the current trend of destruction of this Earth and its inhabitants.

edit typo

[nolabels]

32. Now if they could just figure out how I lost that sock in the dryer

}(

[Maple]

34. Did you find change as well?

That's payment for the sock.

[Jose Diablo]

49. Well, cloths dryers need to eat too.

What is an occasional sock as compared to keeping your dryer happy and healthy?

[Lorien]

36. Very exciting news!

can't wait to read about what they uncover. I really wish we hadn't bombed the Baghdad museums and library to dust; there was probably a lot there that this technology could have been applied to.

[NIGHT TRIPPER]

37. This technique could be applied to so many ancient manuscripts

I'd like to see what it may uncover in India and China as well.
Who knows what information may emerge!

Just have to watch our for CENSORSHIP--

A lot of people have a lot riding on history as we know it NOW.

Who knows what means some would go to in order to repress information that may disrupt our current perceptions.

Look what they have done to repress info on UFO's.

Hope they don't bury this in the same manor.

[JohnLocke]

39. Mankind is truly blessed this day! (nt).

[PurityOfEssence]

41. How about Aristotle's Poetics on Comedy?

This would truly be the crown jewel of lost thought.

[Turn CO Blue]

42. Truly wonderful. The archeologists

and other scientists must be wetting their pants!

Perhaps the lost Christian gospels will have text that indisputably prohibits modern fundies from acting like assholes!

[Daphne08]

43. We might see another book such as

"Holy Blood, Holy Grail" which rocked the Christian world at that time (early 1980s).

[tomreedtoon]

44. C'mon, it's just grocery lists!

And take-out orders, and laundry tickets, and other junk like that. Do you think everything that was written was earth-shaking? It might even be the Greek equivalent of "Beavis and Butt-head".

Euripides? Okay, then I hittayou!

[Fozzledick]

68. No, no no! If Euripides...

... then Eumenedies!

[xchrom]

45. this is sooo awesome.

i don't care what's in it -- it will give a much more personal look at some of the great minds that have shaped human history.

[American liberal]

63. correction

...great minds that have shaped Western human history. don't forget that the Chinese were doing astronomy and making bronze and writing waaaaaaaaaaaaay before the Greeks, but you'd never know it by looking at science and social studies grade school textbooks in this country (I have been proofreading them for a huge educational publisher for the past 6 months). They seem to think it all started with the Greeks and got really interesting in Europe.

Regardless, this is a HUGE development and I look forward to learning more as the text becomes available.

Peace,
AL

[gorbal]

50. I'm all for a second Renaissance

I'm all for a second Renaissance, lord knows we could use one. I do feel like I am living in the "Dark Ages" these days.

[DoYouEverWonder]

51. LOL, the dark ages

with good communication systems. Life is strange.

[Frederik]

52. Fantastic!

This is so exciting! And to think that it was discovered in a rubbish dump. It's almost unbelievable.

[librechik]

54. Wow, lost Christian gospels!

that will go over big...

Seriously, what great news--I have benefited greatly from reading the Nag Hammadid texts as available. Fills in the gaps for sure!

[DrZeeLit]

70. Wow, I haven't heard anyone talk about Nag H. I worked for a

professor (while I was in college) who was working on them. Just reading his manuscripts while I typed was amazing. It was back in the days of IBM Selectric typewriters and the typewriter had an interchangeable "ball" with Coptic. I'm sure computers have really helped his writing.

[librechik]

72. I very much enjoy the writings of John Allegro

ha ha --could have used your IBM Selectric expertise back during the Dan Rather controversy--can't believe their version (that the Executive had no "th" character) became the Standard Alibi!

you didn't work on Allegro's team did you?

[DrZeeLit]

87. Oi... 30 years ago... I'm thinking a Dr. Pearson? Help! My mental rolodex

is full. I need to lose a few cards. Like the phone number and address from when I was five. Geez.

I think Pearson or something with a P. He was a blond, Nordic/Swede as I recall. Quiet, tall, very academic. UC Santa Barbara, Department of Religious Studies. Wherever he is, this discovery will rock his world.

[Davis_X_Machina]

55. What will be recovered...

....will be snippets of Greek ranging from a few words to a few dozen words -- sentence fragments up to one or two paragraphs. Whole works will almost certainly not be found.

A lot of the Oxyrhincus papyri are recovered by delaminating cartonnage, an early version of the recycled cardboard you sometimes see in cereal boxes. Lots of tiny pieces

There might be a 20% increase in classical works for which we have papyri and quotations embedded in other works, instead of just the testamenta.

There's not been a whole-work sized papyrus recovery since Menander's Dyskolos (Grumpy Old Fart) was discovered in a Cairo antiquities dealer's in 1959.

Much on papyrology here: University of Michigan Papyrus Collection and here: Duke Papyrus Archive.

[lonestarnot]

58. Why so pessimistic?

[lonestarnot]

57. WOW this is exciting!

[yodermon]

61. Incredible

THIS is the hall of records.

[Zorra]

62. The Gospel of Judas? Found this article when looking for related info:

Controversial gospel to be translated
From correspondents in Geneva

ABOUT 2000 years after the Gospel according to Judas sowed discord among early Christians, a Swiss foundation says it is translating for the first time the controversial text named after the apostle said to have betrayed Jesus Christ.

The 62-page papyrus manuscript of the text was uncovered in Egypt during the 1950s or 1960s, but its owners did not fully comprehend its significance until recently, according to the Maecenas Foundation in Basel.
snip-----
Thirty other texts - some of which have been uncovered - were sidelined because "they were difficult to reconcile with what Constantine wanted as a political doctrine", according to Mr Roberty.

The foundation's director said the Judas Iscariot text called into question some of the political principles of Christian doctrine.

http://www.heraldsun.news.com.au/common/story_page/0,5478,12698856%255E1702,00.html

[reprobate]

65. How's that line go: He who receives the sop will betray me?

That's always seemed more of an assignment than an accusation.

Judas got some really bad press. He was just following orders.

[alcibiades_mystery]

66. Hopefully, they'll find Theophrastus' treatises on rhetoric

Would be a great addition to the classical corpus.

Theophrastus is quoted more than Aristotle on rhetoric in antiquity, particularly by Cicero and Quintilian, but we're left with Aristotle's work and not Theophrastus' - except for fragments. Should be very interesting.

[nonconformist]

67. Wow! This is fascinating and exciting! nt

[peace_prevails]

69. Anyone aware of the links b/t Oxford and the Christian Right?

Don't want this one to be 'buried' for another 2000 years...

[Bridget Burke]

81. No.

Please tell us. Sounds interesting!

[pelagius]

96. The typical Oxford don would be...

...appalled or greatly amused at the antics of the "Christian Right", depending on his/her temperment. There might be some sort of genteel Anglican leaning among some professors, but not likely in thoroughly secular England.

[BobbyinPortland]

73. Try reading THE ESSENE GOSPEL OF PEACE

It's amazing the things that Jesus said that seem to never get mentioned or included in the Bible.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

76. I keep hoping that they'll discover something like this for

medieval Japanese literature.

My doctoral dissertation was on a change in Japanese grammar whose process can only be inferred indirectly because the proof texts are missing. (Lots of wars in that era, lots of entire cities torched, so that only the most popular literary works survived.) If the manuscripts were found... :-)

[Kingofalldems]

77. I wonder if

ancient freepers had them collected and thrown in the trash.

[icymist]

78. Ancient freepers?! LOL!!!

Didn't Al Gore invent the internet? How then can there be ancient freepers? Does Plato know about these freepers, (after all, he did write The Republic)? :hi:

[DoYouEverWonder]

79. Yes, there were ancient freepers

the Pauline Christians.

[icymist]

80. But, were they Republicans?

Maybe freepers are stupidity evolving? Heh heh heh....

[leftchick]

88. yeppers!

;)

[Zhade]

94. Indeed. What a FANTASTIC way to refer to Paulists!

NT!

[bobbieinok]

82. remember: rebirth of western culture in 1200s when Moslem and Jewish

scholars' works that preserved much of what we now know of classical antiquity was introduced into western Europe from Moorish
Spain (and Sicily?)

Jewish and Islamic theologians had already had to deal with this material (classical antiquity was venerated in middle ages) and thus provided a model for Christians.

Aquinas wrote his theological work after the introduction of this 'new' material. His work has been the basis of Catholic theology ever since.

[sellitman]

86. After reading "The Pet Goat" bush might look into this find.

:sarcasm:

[despairing optimist]

92. What gives? I expect a story on wrinkle cream and I get dusty scrolls?

The Independent needs to get with the MSM program.