Dead after cop scuffle (NY / taser)

[struggle4progress]

Authorities and witnesses differ over officers' struggle with a man who died after being shot by stun gun

BY CHRISTIAN MURRAY AND SAMUEL BRUCHEY
STAFF WRITERS
April 24, 2005

A Ronkonkoma man died Friday night after a violent encounter with nine Suffolk police officers, during which he was shocked five times with a Taser gun, Suffolk police said. <snip>

When Cox was placed facedown on a gurney and handcuffed in front of his stomach, he still resisted so much that three officers had to accompany him in the ambulance to Brookhaven Memorial Hospital Medical Center in East Patchogue, police said.

Margie Jackson, 21, of Bay Shore, who said she saw him leave the house, refutes the police account. "He wasn't moving," she said.

Once at the hospital, medical personnel attempted to place him on another gurney and noticed Cox did not appear to be breathing. He was pronounced dead at 9:37 p.m., Fitzpatrick said. <snip>

http://www.newsday.com/news/printedition/longisland/ny-listun244231763apr24,0,6691757.story?coll=ny-linews-print

[daleo]

1. Justifiable homicides by police were about 300-400 per year in the 90s

http://www.ojp.usdoj.gov/bjs/homicide/justify.htm

It would be interesting to see how the taser usage affects these numbers - up, down or no change. So far there is no obvious trend in the data that I can see.

[liberalnurse]

3. My sense is that the Taser deaths are few and

far between. The Taser appears to affect the cocaine toxic assailants in the least desirable way. It may have to do with chronic cocaine or crack abuse to the body wherein they can not compensate or tolerate the electrical jolt.


snip>

Yesterday, as the Suffolk County medical examiner's office found evidence of cocaine and alcohol in John Cox's blood


Thank you for sharing the article. It clearly demonstrates the frightening, criminal element that officers have to face 24/7. These guys are true hero's.

Imagine what this out of control, raging bull could of done to the surrounding citizens at the house/ building. The officers directed them to safety first!

snip>

Cox's friend, Daryl Harris, who was ordered to go outside the house by police,

[Southsideirish]

5. We have had at least 2 and maybe 3 deaths in Chicago just recently

from these things.

[liberalnurse]

6. Tell me.....

How many lives have been saved from the Taser intervention verses a 9mm handgun? Or just how many lives in general have been saved with the successful intervention of a Taser during a life threatening situation?

[NickB79]

31. You don't use Tasers to replace 9mm's, so that argument is hollow

Tasers are NEVER used to replace firearms. If the officer's life is in danger, he or she is trained to go for their gun, NOT the taser. If tasers were not present here, the police would not have shot him; they would have beat him with nightsticks. Would that have killed him as well? I don't know. I do know that the "better to be tasered than shot" argument is a non-argument.

[LeighAnn]

16. I'm keeping a collection

Few and far between, indeed

http://www.newsfromreality.com/taser

[struggle4progress]

21. Did you see this case from last April make the news again this week?

Kin of dead man sues over stun gun
http://www.ardemgaz.com/ShowStoryTemplate.asp?Path=ArDemocrat/2005/04/22&ID=Ar02002&Section=Arkansas
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=102&topic_id=1415455&mesg_id=1415455

[liberalnurse]

22. No one here disputes

that there has been the rare occasion a Taser intervention wasn't the best choice. I do not know what the article states regarding the wheelchair man so I can't comment. One has to register to read it.

I don't even know why you feel so compelled to even link it other than you didn't get the poor victim stokes in this thread.

[struggle4progress]

23. I was responding to a poster who is collecting these stories.

www.bugmenot.com

[liberalnurse]

25. Okay.....

OOPS! :scared:

[struggle4progress]

27. I actually appreciate a certain level of confrontation on this board.

While I don't agree with everything you say, it forces me to think and that helps keep me honest. :)

[liberalnurse]

28. Ditto here....

:pals:

[struggle4progress]

4. Sorting out the statistics might be tricky. If you're not careful ...

... to examine the proper category, any actual effect might be lost in noise.

Despite the loud cries from taser enthusiasts, I doubt whether many (if any) departments have "use of force" regulations suggesting use of a taser in any situation where police would naturally use a gun or otherwise deliberately resort to deadly force.

So perhaps the real question is something like: how many people are accidentally killed by police? These statistics might be a different category than "justifiable homicide."

If a hospitalized amputee, in a wheelchair, loses his temper at police who are insisting on medical treatment, is tasered, and expires, are you sure that's counted as "justifiable homicide"?

Another way to get your hands on the information might be by looking a data lumped by offense category or by setting. How many people die, without deliberate use of deadly force by police, in police attempts to resolve civil disturbance complaints? How many, without deliberate use of deadly force, in hospitals?

[liberalnurse]

7. This would be a great research

project for you.

I doubt whether many (if any) departments have "use of force" regulations suggesting use of a taser in any situation where police would naturally use a gun or otherwise deliberately resort to deadly force.

I'm interested in this information myself. I'll inquire in my town to see what the guidelines are.

[daleo]

8. I agree it would be a difficult analysis.

While googling for these numbers I came across a source that claimed only about one quarter of police killings of suspects were counted in official statistics - I don't know how much I believed that source, so I went with the government data. But, your point about the possibility of ambiguous data seems valid.

In principle, if tasers are doing what is advertised, the total number of police shootings of suspects + criminal shootings of police should trend downward with the increasing use of tasers by police departments. Of course any such analysis would be fraught with the same problems of establishing causality as arguments about gun laws, capital punishment and so forth.

But it might be an interesting subject of a thesis for an enterprising criminology PhD student.

[zenbodybuilder]

10. Ne Ratnik

Ratnik Americana cuvanti si ne.

[daleo]

13. So, what's it mean? n/t

[liberalnurse]

2. When someone is so loaded

on narcotics, amphetamines or cocaine they become a danger to anyone within their perimeter. This guy was obviously combative and threatening. It is such a shame that people get so high that they are lunatics. The officers had no other choice. Safety to the public is the priority.

Great job officers.... You did all that you could.
snip>

The officers used commendable restraint. This was someone who was clearly not complying with what they were telling him to do," said Suffolk Homicide Commander Det. Lt. Jack Fitzpatrick.

"The sergeant shows up, says 'I have a Taser, calm down, get on your knees,'" Fitzpatrick said, "at which point, he charges them."


He must of been a terrifying!

snip>

A muscular man who stood 5-foot-9, weighed 240 pounds

He punched a hole through a bedroom door and was telling us he was God."

Then.....

" HE PULLED THE DARTS OUT AND KEPT ON COMING!" OMG!

The sergeant fired once, sending two electrically charged darts from the Taser at Cox, striking him on his bare chest. Cox pulled the darts out and kept coming,

Over the next 10 minutes, Fitzpatrick said, the nine officers wrestled with Cox, trying to subdue and handcuff him.

During that time, he bit an officer on the left shoulder, broke another officer's wrist,

[struggle4progress]

26. I won't say anything positive about drug use. But several decades ago,

so-called "recreational" use was widespread, and a rather large number of people engaged in some recreational use.

It's my distinct impression that the casual opiate or cocaine user was typically nonviolent, although (of course) such users were gambling with their health. On the other hand, the opiate addict, in search of a fix, presents a rather different risk of criminal behavior, while the habitual meth users did tend to develop grandiosity and bizarre, unpredictable behaviors.

In the present case, anyway, it's still apparently entirely unclear how much cocaine was in the man's system. So your presentation of the fellow as drug-crazed seems premature. The story suggests instead an episode of mental illness, for which the fellow was receiving medical treatment. If this is the case, of course, "recreational" drug use was strongly contraindicated, as an activity likely to destabilize the patient -- but then we are still primarily dealing with mental illness.

The police arrived around 8P. The woman who rents the house said the police were alone with him in the house for about an hour, which time frame fits with the fellow being found to be dead upon arriving at the hospital around 9:30; witnesses outside said they could hear him being beaten by the police. The police, on the other hand, seem to describe a ten minute confrontation, which does not fit with the overall time frame.

To me, the issue is not nearly as simple as "supporting the police" or "not supporting the police." Cocaine, of course, has long been known to increase the risk of heart attack, and as you quite correctly observe in an earlier post, some taser-related deaths appear to be associated with cocaine exposure; if this is a genuine risk factor, use of taser should be avoided in such cases.

And in recent weeks, we have seen several stories about taser use on individuals with a history of, and exhibiting symptoms of, mental illness. It is reasonable to wonder whether police procedure can be tuned to avoid unnecessary trauma in such cases, insofar as shocking an already dysfunctional person may tend to produce further anxiety and agitation that increases irrational behavior and escalates the situation.

[liberalnurse]

29. It is so easy to analize a situation

from the comforts of home. I'd bet a year's salary, that if you were looking Mr. Cox head on in his rage,where just you had to make the decision ......I'd say you would be standing in a yellow puddle, especially if you had already used the Taser and he pulled out the probes and kept coming after ya! Maybe you could talk him into calling his "sponsor" and go to a NA Meeting....

Additionally,
What people say from what they heard is highly, highly subjective and bias. They lie....yes they indeed do.

[CarefullyLiberal]

9. Rare Tazer thread

This is a rare thread, indeed, where the majority of responses are in support of law enforcement.

I for one support the use of Tazers in law enforcement. American law enforcement needs to make use of every advantage that can be used to protect themselves and the Tazer is only one of those tools.

Of course I'm sorry the crackhead guy died, but my guess is that the dead man didn't have much respect for his own life.

I feel worse for the policemen that were harmed in line of duty, a duty that includes protecting my life and my family's life.

-Fergus

[liberalnurse]

11. Thats the way I see it.

:applause:

[JNelson6563]

12. My problem is when they use 'em on kids

That is ridiculous and inexcusable.

A raging, stoned adult? Sure, taser them, better than shooting them. A kid? No.

Julie

[liberalnurse]

14. I don't like it

when they use them on kittens or female cats in heat either. :banghead:

Only if the kid is indeed a kid, as they tend to be armed at age 13 now....I've met a few of them. That said, to be clear with my thinking and message, let me say this, "I totally agree that officers can and must restrain children verses using a Taser".

The last think I want is the Taser to be getting a "bum rap" due to some knuckle head cowboys.

[JNelson6563]

19. Amen Liberal Nurse.

I've seen stories where they used them on kids in Florida who were definitely kids and unarmed.

Frankly I am glad the cops have an alternate to a gun. It's dangerous out there.

Julie

[zenbodybuilder]

15. In America

most of the time the cops and the criminals are the flip side of the same coin. Like the D's and the R's. Why does it always take 12+++++ to do the work of 1 and then they always have to use some kind of a weapon?

[liberalnurse]

17. Because it is necessary....

The officers always have to confront a scene with minimal information...they are at a disadvantage.

Suspects who resist only escalate a situation. They need to comply and resolve the differences later, like jail or court. Many times, they just need to chill and no one goes any where.....It is the resistance and unpredictability, the anger and argument/power struggles that evokes a more defensive posture from the officer. He needs to be safe as well as the public. Unruly individuals cause their own problems.

[SouthernDem2004]

18. Because:

You never hear bout arrests where there are no problems. If there are no weapons involved and no serious resisting it is not news. I arrest on average between 6-12 people a week. The vast majority of arrest are done peacefully. I have also been involved in incidents involving weapons and gunfire. Those type make the news because they are exceptional and news worthy.

Who wants to read a story about a crackhead arrested that was unarmed, cooperative, polite and compliant? Yawn, not me. Most people do not give us any real problems. Alot "bump their gums" but I find it amusing.

[liberalnurse]

20. Thank you soo much ....

for all that you do each day......:woohoo: :patriot:

[struggle4progress]

24. There may be growing concern in the law enforcement community ...

... about these devices

ET police eye developments in tasers' use
http://www.zwire.com/site/news.cfm?newsid=14405354&BRD=1994&PAG=461&dept_id=227937&rfi=6
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=103&topic_id=121396&mesg_id=121396

[Mandate My Ass]

30. The company that sells the tasers provided the initial report

that they're safe over the objections of experts who said they're dangerous.

The 100+ deaths seem to back up the former POV.