Spain challenges authority of pope

[arcos]

Spain challenges authority of pope

MADRID: New Pope Benedict XVI has inherited a troubled legacy from his predecessor - Spain, the majority Catholic country that is breaking with traditional Vatican doctrine on major social issues.

Despite Spain’s 80 percent Catholic population and being home to the influential Vatican group Opus Dei, its new socialist government of Jose Luis Rodriguez Zapatero is overturning Vatican prohibitions. Zapatero has a legislative programme which includes bills to legalise gay marriage, allow adoption by gay couples, facilitate divorce and allow stem cell medical research, which uses special cells from human embryos and adults.

The prime minister has shrugged off criticism from the Spanish bishops and the Vatican, saying he is only implementing the legislative programme for which he was elected in April last year, and which reflects the evolution of society. The latest Vatican confrontation occurred on Friday, a day after the Spanish lower house of parliament passed a bill to allow gay marriages and adoption by gay couples.

The bill is expected to be approved by the Senate and become law in a few months, making Spain only the second European country after the Netherlands to allow both gay marriages and adoption of children by same-sex couples.

Cardinal Alfonso Lopez Trujillo, head of the Pontifical Council on the Family, called on Spanish municipal officials, if asked to perform homosexual marriage ceremonies, to object on grounds of conscience, even it if meant they might lose their job.

<snip>

http://www.dailytimes.com.pk/default.asp?page=story_25-4-2005_pg4_5

[Tandalayo_Scheisskopf]

1. You know...

These guys sure are picking a lot of fights these days.

[Rainscents]

2. Good for Spain for standing up!

:applause:

[Zenlitened]

3. Absolutely!

:applause: :applause: :applause:

[saskatoon]

34. Spain!

Hurrah, Hurrah! for Spain. More sense than we have, that's for sure.

[More Than A Feeling]

4. Can I vote for this guy?

However Defence Minister Jose Bono, the only practising Catholic in the Zapatero cabinet, defended the government’s programme saying: “The Spanish government is not a preacher of Christianity”

Amen!

[Disturbed]

5. If I had the money...

I would move to Spain.

[glitch]

12. Me too. It's a beautiful country and the people are terrific.

Sigh.

[barb162]

31. ditto

[Binka]

20. I'll Be There in 2010

Another 2 years in Sicily followed by 3 in Singapore then on to the coast of Spain.

I will NEVER live in the States again. I'm doing it for her....

[K8-EEE]

26. OMG What A Beautiful Child.

Gorgeous! You'll love Spain. I lived there for a big in 1978. I love the people there. It's odd how everyone walks around after dinner (which they don't finish until midnight!) just sort of to mix and be social, the streets are always full of people, here we tend to make fortresses and put up walls around outselves, like after 9/11 everyone was sort of holed up in the house, but after the Spanish terrorist attack they all poured out on the streets, just a more open mentality.

[Binka]

29. Thanks She Is My Darling Bupps

Europe agrees with me Spain and Portugal in particular. My daughter will have an international upbringing that is for certain. She has only been to the States twice in the past 3.5 years. She will be Four next month. She looks a lot older than she is. And she is wise beyond her years. I bought her a "magic" wand a while ago last week she was giving me a power dance with it and at the end she pointed it to the sky and said "Poop On Bush Sky."

[Eloriel]

6. Way cool.

:wow:

I love it.

[PartyPooper]

7. Spain had better be careful.

They're going to be absolutely inundated with zillions of gay tourists like me! :D


:bounce:

[hlthe2b]

8. I hope this forces much needed reform....

With no intent on offending my practicing colleagues, IMO the Catholic Church desperately needs this impetus.

[rpannier]

9. Damned Commies

How dare they question the authority of the pope. How dare they abandon their inquisitional heritage.
Oh btw...I have a friend in Spain who is out of work. If one of those municipal officials quits their job He would like to know so he can apply for it.
And...How dare Zapatero implement the policies that the VOTERS elected him for. He should listen to the UNELECTED church officials.

[Cessna Invesco Palin]

21. NOBODY SUSPECTS THE SPANISH LOWER HOUSE OF PARLIAMENT!!! n/t

[democraticrevolution]

10. They should learn.....

This isn't like back in the 18th century when the church had a major influence over the government. There's no Constantine like ruler out there trying to use religon to gain power in Spain. Times have changed the only country that suffers from a loud radical conservative religous movement is my country the US. Also, like Constantine we have politicans who are trying to use religon to gain power as well.

I'll say it like this, freedom to believe and speak publicly about your faith, but seperation of church and state. :)

[saigon68]

17. YOU MEAN Hateful nut-job loud radical conservative religious movement

These fundies are for the most part hateful NUT-JOBS who would love to see gay citizens burned at the stake and Negroes and other undesirables lynched with rope from trees.

[Rich Hunt]

18. wow

"Trying to use religion to gain power".


You mean there is someone on DU who actually understands history? I've seen very few people point this out.

Good post, btw. I hope it doesn't get ignored.

[d_b]

11. The evolution of society.

Wish we had that here.

[glitch]

13. If you don't believe in evolution you don't have to evolve.

However, you do go extinct. Might take awhile. Might not.

[burrowowl]

14. The Pope is the Pope

and the Government is the Government
Render unto Caesar what is Caesar's and to God what is God's.
The Church should keep its nose out of Government and vice-versa.
That is ALL!

[bleedingheart]

24. You forget that the Vatican has been putting its nose in government

for years.

Let us see...

Pope's have bequeathed titles like "Defender of the Faith" upon the likes of Henry VIII of England...
"Holy Roman Emperor" upon the Houses of Spain and Austria.

Popes have waged crusades to make the coffers of both the Vatican and the kingdoms that fight alongside of them rich.

They have always meddled in the affairs of state and I doubt they will ever stop.

[xchrom]

15. all i have to say is...

:woohoo: :woohoo: :woohoo:

[htuttle]

16. Spain is the home of the founder of Opus Dei, isn't it?

That's gotta be eating Pope Benedict up inside, eh?

[katinmn]

19. next up: Latin America

Glad some are resisting a turnback to the Dark Ages.

[all.of.me]

22. wow! that's great!

i've heard lots of great things about spain lately - they are making a law that husbands have to do housework (!) among other things that it's too early to remember.

[bleedingheart]

23. Remember the "Good Old Days" when the Emperor of Spain

had the Pope's nuts in his hand?

[bushisanidiot]

25. Good for them! Jesus was a liberal and the Pope has tried to hijack

Him and make Him into something he wasn't.. hardlined and hateful. He loved EVERYONE and saw good in ALL people.

Jesus NEVER said "hate the sin, love the sinner." And, he never said ANYTHING about homosexuality. So, if it's such an "abomination", why wouldn't God's son bother to mention it at least once?? I doubt he just "forgot" to mention it..

[Arugula Latte]

27. This is wonderful.

Not long ago, it wouldn't seem possible that Spain (and Italy, for that matter) could shrug off the ridiculous religious yoke they had worn for so long.

It's a good lesson that change can and does happen.

[patcox2]

28. Sorta misleading headline, since the Pope has no authority.

The way it works is that the Pope has authority to speak on matters of church doctrine. Of course membership in the church is entirely voluntary, and there are no sanctions for failure to follow doctrine, except expulsion from the club, so really, what authority does the pope have? None.

Meanwhile, the Spanish civil government has sole and exclusive authority to enact and enforce laws.

How can they possibly conflict?

The church might not like the laws, might lobby against them or protest. Big whup. Thats what we do, too, we protest against Bush laws we don't like, nobody calls that a conflict of authority.

If the church tells people that they must adhere to a higher rule than what is merely legal, thats fine, people can choose to do so or not. For example, the law says gays can get married. The church says that they cannot. So, an observant gay can choose, get married, or follow church teaching and don't. No conflict. Civil marriage has nothing to do with the church, doesn't require church blessing, and really isn't much of the church's business.

If the church tells its members to break the law, such as by refusing to properly carry out their duty as elected officials, so be it, those officials will suffer the consequences. But the church has not authority to make them do anything, unlike the state, which can put you in jail.

[arcos]

30. It is not misleading, the Pope has lots of influence in some countries

Sure, the Pope doesn't have any real authority, but he can influence people all over the world, especially in deeply Catholic countries such as Spain.

[NashVegas]

37. This Is What the Vatican Can Do

They can ex-communicate the president (assuming he's Catholic) and anyone in the government who is, and place the entire country under edict.

What that means is, no mass, no communion, no rites of any sort.

In superstitious times, when Rome decided Europe's fates, that could ferment a rebellion. The superstitious peasants would freak out, the barons would be encouraged to rise up, and any foreign leader who had a bone to pick with that country was given a green light to invade.

Rome hasn't flexed this muscle in centuries, and I'm guessing they're curious to see if it might still be effective.

[nolabels]

32. Is this a battle to see who has more influence on the people?

Which one is the more civilizing force, Democracy or Religion. I got a $20 (as a DU Donation) wagered on the Democracy angle.

The old adage of "The tighter you grip the more it loosens" could go a long way for some of the leaders in these top heavy organizations

[xxqqqzme]

33. there is an excellent

article about Zapatero and how he is facilitating change in Spain in the April issue of 'American Prospect' magazine. After I read it, I was kicking myself for not keeping up w/ Spanish classes. Made me want 2 move 2 a country a little more tolerant than this one.

[confludemocrat]

36. Sweet revenge of the Spanish Republic

of which Zapatero is a "true son" or direct descendant, a grandfather or uncle having been executed by the Franco Fascists.

Long live the Republic!

[SoCalDem]

35. Message to vatican:.. Get OVER it..

Spain is a predominantly Catholic country, BUT there are MORE than just Catholics who live there, and WHY should EVERYONE live under papal decree??

If catholics want to Follow the Pope, no one is stopping them..This si the stuff that makes me CRAZY.. There needs to be a GENERAL set of laws for EVERYONE, and if certain groups want to impose strict "rules" on their lives, I say Go For It..but leave the rest of us OUT OF IT..

[Auntie Bush]

38. You go girl !

That goes for the US too!