Defense:England Oxygen-Deprived at Birth-Casualty of overzealous recruits?

[demo dutch]

If true what the hell was she doing in the army!!! Is she another casualty of overzealous recruiters?!

Yahoo- By T.A. BADGER, Associated Press Writer

FORT HOOD, Texas - Defense lawyers sought leniency for Pfc. Lynndie England at a hearing Tuesday to determine her punishment in the Abu Ghraib prison abuse scandal, with a psychologist testifying that the reservist was oxygen-deprived at birth, speech impaired and had trouble learning to read.

West Virginia school psychologist Dr. Thomas Denne — the first defense witness — said England's learning disabilities were identified when she was a kindergartner — and though she made progress in school, she continued needing special help.

"I knew I was going to know Lynndie England for the rest of my life," West Virginia school psychologist Dr. Thomas Denne said.

A military jury of five men and one woman was seated earlier Tuesday to make a sentencing recommendation for England, 22, who pleaded guilty Monday to seven counts of mistreating prisoners.

EDITED BY ADMIN: COPYRIGHT

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20050503/ap_on_re_us/prisoner_abuse_england;_ylt=Alz930o7UZQSbP9rYzRteems0NUE;_ylu=X3oDMTA2MTQ3MTFjBHNlYwN0cw--

[medeak]

1. the army wants a few good mental patients

courtesy of wonkette:

Hollywood Sabotaging Army Recruitment Efforts
To meet monthly quotas, the New York Times reports, Army recruiters are now willing to take a few good mental patients. Those with police records are also invited to apply. Why is it getting harder to find top-notch recruits? Cinematic patriot Michael Medved insists it's because "many of the major stars today have an Ivy League background." As a result, he suggests, Hollywood no longer makes movies that accurately glorify "the heroic violence of brave men and women with guns, fighting selflessly for their country." We always had a feeling it was bad for America when Harvard accepted Natalie Portman, and now we know why. — GREG BEATO

Army Recruiters Say They Feel Pressure to Bend Rules
War Films, Hollywood and Popular Culture

[medeak]

6. bipolar recruit right out of psychiatric ward

link above didn't work...try:

http://www.nytimes.com/2005/05/03/national/03recruit.html

[TahitiNut]

9. Sounds like a 'slippery slope' is in the offing.

As fewer and fewer sociopaths and mental defectives go to Hollywood to star in blow-'em-to-bits movies, we'll get more and more of them begging and bribing recruiters. :silly:

[KissMyAsscroft]

30. That's pretty damed offensive.

I have Bipolar disorder and I'm far from being a "sociopath." I'm actually at the top of my class. No one would know I have it unless I told them.

I'm God damn far from being a mental defective.

[TahitiNut]

31. No offense intended.

[sendero]

37. I also have bipolar disorder..

... and I'm sure there are those here who think I'm crazy.

They should be so crazy :)

[Moderator]

2. Hi demo dutch

Please edit your post to four quoted paragraphs for copyright reasons. Thank you.

[demo dutch]

24. Sorry will next time, unfortunately time was expired when I got your msge

[daleo]

3. This sounds like Blair's reasoning

"I had a choice, but I chose to do what my friends wanted me to...".

[Danieljay]

5. ouch...good one! EOM

[Danieljay]

4. letting an oxygen deprived recruit guard a military prison?

Thats about as crazy as letting an oxygen deprived "coke" head run the country...

oh..wait....

Never mind....

[NNN0LHI]

7. Good to know we are sending our best and brightest over there

And yet some people can't figure out why we are losing this war.

Don

[Dogmudgeon]

8. That makes a lot of sense, sadly

Hypoxia and anoxia at birth is probably the real source of the so-called "birth trauma". Some infants are delivered close to death from lack of oxygen. This area of neonatology is still poorly explored, but progress is being made rapidly.

As much as I condemn Pvt. England's brutal behavior at Abu Ghraib, I still commend her for owning up to her part in it, in spite of the fact that her ass will be the one that gets the worst whuppin'. She's moderately impaired, she was used by her friends and her "boyfriend", and she had little capacity to refuse, but she has shown the capacity to learn from it. Cold comfort, I know, to her victims, but it reflects an even harsher light on her superiors.

Charles Grainer (incidentally, a Segeant/Specialist, not a Private) is also due for some stockade time, but of all the officers in the command who were responsible for Abu Ghraib, only Gen. Janice Karpinsky was disciplined, and got an administrative slap on the wrist.

This is a hell of a way to learn a "Life Lesson", although the tortured Iraqis had it much worse than Lynndie England will suffer. The real outrage is that the punishment was limited to a small number of enlisted personnel who embarrassed the brass by being in those pictures. IMHO, they should have "cleaned house" at Command, and compensated the Iraqi victims who were cleared of their own charges.

Of course, the real culprits are the Beloved of Jeebus and dine on our democracy's carcass in Washington. Will there be justice for those perps?

--p!

[atreides1]

14. I Just want to understand

Are you saying that she's not responsible for her actions, because of something that occured over 20 years ago.

Why is it the constant defense is "she was used", she admits to knowing right from wrong, and that she did it because her friends asked her to.

The only reason she owned up to her part in it was because she was looking at 16+ years in a military prison, with this deal she'll probably do only 2 years.

And an update, Graner was a sergeant, upon his conviction he was reduced to the grade of private E-1. So he is a private!!!

I would suggest that you watch the documentary film that was done by a Dutch film crew. She admits she knew it was wrong, but that everyone else was doing it, so she felt compelled to participate, because they asked her to.

Personally as far as I'm concerned she's getting off light, as are those who had nothing done to them. Hopefully in the next world she and all of those involved get what they deserve!!!!

[Iowa]

21. You're missing the point...

It's pretty easy for someone with an above average IQ to view everyone else through the same prism, but it's not that simple. Try functioning in this world with an IQ of 70 or 80, and then make your judgments.

It's actually quite easy to "always do the right thing" throughout your life when you're born with a high IQ, to bright and educated parents, on the right side of the tracks, into a community of achieving neighbors, who provided you with a good education. Reverse a few of those things, strip you of much of your intelligence, and then let's see how you do. Navigating and surviving a cold, complex, dog-eat-dog, competitive world, while remaining true to your values, requires considerable intelligence and a great deal of finesse.

As someone who worked professionally with mentally disabled people for more than 30 years, I'd be very slow to predict what I'd be like if the tables were turned and I lost so many of the personal and community resources I was born with. Our ability to live a righteous and moral life has one hell of a lot to do with the birth lottery. Republicans typically don't recognize or understand that - which is at the very core of why they are Republicans.

Placing a mentally disabled young woman into that terrifying, hell-hole was ridiculous. If the school psychologist's report is accurate, she was completely ill-equipped to handle it. Only those who know her personally and intimately can really speak to the level of her culpability, but I'd be very slow to judge without a great deal more information. I prefer to direct my anger toward the executives who took us to war on the basis of lies, and the assholes who voted them back into office.

[DoYouEverWonder]

16. Pvt England should be the poster girl

for how Bush's America is failing our children.

This girl is the result of a system that has failed her since birth and there are 1000's more like her out there.

This is why you spend the money on early intervention and good public schools. So that we (society) don't have to pay the money, to support them one way or another, for the rest of their miserable lives later on.

[Kerrytravelers]

10. I fail to see how this is a defense.

In Texas, under *, people who are mentally retarded were held responsible for their crimes and paid the ultimate price- they were executed by the state.

So, I guess this one isn't responsible because... someone help me here.

[NNN0LHI]

11. Not just Texas and not just Bush

Bill Clinton went back to Arkansas to witness an execution he had signed the death warrant for while governor during his first term in office as president.

After the guy ate his last meal and was being led to his death he turned around and told the jailers to not throw away his piece of pie he had not eaten. He said he wanted them to save it for him to eat later. True story.

Don

[medeak]

12. bet #ush has never attended execution

he signed...

[Betty]

32. just like he's never been to a funeral

of any soldier that he has indirectly killed with his unlawful war.

[Kerrytravelers]

13. I had forgotten about that. What a terrible thing.

But, unlike our counterparts, I have no problem criticizine Clinton when i think he did something terrible and wrong.

[w4rma]

33. It's a defense because you don't support what Texas did in that situation.

Correct?

[bemildred]

15. Ms England, whatever her faults, is a scapegoat.

If Dumbsfeldt walks, she should walk.
And Bush, and Cheney, and ...

[Megahurtz]

17. I agree

she is heavily scapegoated because she's a woman.
The assholes that set her up for this probably already knew about that.

[proud2BlibKansan]

18. This seriously pisses me off

I teach kids with LD. They are NOT low IQ, they have the abiltity to reason and problem solve as well as anyone without LD. LD is a PROCESSING disorder, not a sign of low cognitive abilities or poor reasoning skills. It is really more of a learning difference than a disability.

If Lynndie was identified as LD in kindergarten, that means she had 12 years of special ed services in school. I feel certain that she left high school with adequate reading, writing and math skills. This school psych's outlandish statement is a slap in the face of every special ed teacher who worked with Lynndie and also an insult to persons with LD.

Lynndie is a poster child for torturers of the enemy, not for people with LD. LD is definitely NOT an excuse for what she CHOSE to do.

[Iowa]

22. Oh please!

First of all, the article did not provide enough information to lead one to assume the diagnosis is LD. And there's a big difference between LD and MR. The article refers to her "mental capacity", which would lead one to believe that she's MR, not LD. However, the biggest clue is that this girl was diagnosed in kindergarten! LD is almost never diagnosed that early. It's not possible to know the diagnosis without seeing test results and old school records.

I would also strongly challenge your statement about the excellent results produced by our special education system. I worked with many graduates of that system for many years. A few left with "adequate" reading, writing, and math skills, but a great many did not. Our voc-tech schools either reject many special education graduates outright, or require that they participate in extensive remedial education. And these are LD kids - NOT MR. Very few survive without extensive accommodations, and I live in a state with one of the best special education systems in the country.

What's outrageous here is not that the school psychologist said what he said, but that you would presume to diagnose this woman based on so little information, and also claim with "certainty" that she left high school with adequate reading, writing and math skills, just because she received special education services for 12 years! That's just an outrageous claim.

This mob mentality belongs on a neocon site - not this one.

[proud2BlibKansan]

23. "Oh please" yourself

This was posted last night - right here on this board. Her attorneys are claiming that she had diminished capacity due to LD. Not MR, LD.

You can challenge my statements all you want. We have great success with LD kids where I work. I am sorry that is not the case where you are. And yes, we do identify many in kdg.

And I stand by my original claim - a learning disability in no way excuses what this girl CHOSE to do. That is utter nonsense. It is however giving plenty of ammuntion to her defenders (speaking of neocon tactics). :eyes:

[Iowa]

26. Let's be clear...

There's nothing in this article that substantiates an LD diagnosis. A reporter or a lawyer referring to an individual's "learning disabilities" is not a sufficient basis upon which to make a diagnosis. The article also refers to anoxia, a speech impairment, and identification of difficulties in kindergarten.

A diagnosis of LD requires a thorough examination of intellectual functioning (usually involving the WISC and other measures), along with an assessment of academic achievement. A student is diagnosed with LD if she is significantly under-performing academically relative to her intellectual functioning. Kindergarteners have almost no academic background upon which to base an LD diagnosis. You claim that you "do identify many in kdg.". I doubt it. You may identify children who are struggling, but if you truly are diagnosing 5 year olds with LD, you're doing them a real disservice.

But let's be clear - my primary objection to your post was this claim:

"If Lynndie was identified as LD in kindergarten, that means she had 12 years of special ed services in school. I feel certain that she left high school with adequate reading, writing and math skills."...

There is absolutely no way that you can know that based upon this article. Furthermore, I'm saying that your claim (that all special education students graduate with "adequate reading, writing and math skills") is absolutely false. It's not true where I live, where you live, or where anyone else lives. The disability community has worked very hard, for many years, to get the rest of the world to understand that people with LD can succeed, but that some will need accommodations at school and at work (precisely because they often don't have adequate reading, writing, and/or math skills - and other symptoms). Why do you think we have laws that require schools and employers to provide accommodations? Under the Individuals with Disabilities Education Act (IDEA) of 1997 and Americans with Disabilities Act (ADA) of 1990 people of all ages with LD have a right to accommodations in the classroom and in the workplace. You are an LD teacher and you should know this. We don't need this kind of misinformation being spread by someone in your position.

Another quote:

"We have great success with LD kids where I work. I am sorry that is not the case where you are."

I didn't say that we don't have great success with LD kids. That's a straw man that just won't fly. We have considerable success. But it's a struggle. It's very hard work. It involves collaboration with schools, colleges, and employers. It involves money and other resources. It sometimes involves arm-twisting, advocacy, and even legal intervention. As funding diminishes, we lose ground. Kids fall through the cracks. There are MANY adults with LD, who have received years of special education services, yet do NOT have "adequate reading, writing and math skills" (as you wrongly claim). That's true where I live and where you live because it's the nature of the disability in many cases. This is a complex disability, involving a constellation of symptoms, that can impact many spheres of life. It affects one person differently than another. You have grossly over-simplified the disability and portrayed it as a purely academic issue that is always remediated via the special education system. If a trained LD teacher doesn't understand this disability, how can we possibly expect the general public to understand.

And finally, you state this:

"a learning disability in no way excuses what this girl CHOSE to do. That is utter nonsense. It is however giving plenty of ammuntion to her defenders (speaking of neocon tactics)."

If I were forced to react to this story without sufficient information my first reaction would always be to side with a developmentally disabled defendant vs. this government, or with a defense attorney vs. a prosecutor. My primary interest here is in seeing command and administration officials take responsibility for all the systemic abuses that occurred. The older I get, and the more I learn, the less I'm inclined to bite on every piece of raw meat the media throws out to take the attention off the criminal acts of this administration, especially if the raw meat is a developmentally disabled girl. You may turn out to be right about this girl's culpability; the difference between us is that I really don't believe I have enough information to know for sure - while you know with great certainty, and you're ready to join the lynch mob. Whenever there is blood in the water, especially with regard to this war, I prefer to step back and reserve judgment until all the facts are in (if the true facts are even knowable, considering the dismal state of our media today). The Bush administration would like nothing more than for all of us to turn our rage on some small-fry. If it's not this pathetic girl, it's gays, or sex offenders, or liberals like me, or Muslims, or criminals - whoever they think we're willing to demonize today. As a matter of principle, I refuse to follow.

[proud2BlibKansan]

36. The LD diagnosis

is coming from DUers, both on this thread and on the one started last night.

IF her IQ is indeed 70, she is NOT LD. She would be considered borderline MR. I am not familiar with military standards, but I wonder IF the military would really take her if her IQ is indeed that low.

I also think we really are on the same page here. I too am trying to stem the mob mentality here which appears to be labeling her as 'mentally deficient'. I think we agree that is an incorrect label for a person with LD. They are also not 'developmentally disabled'. As I stated earlier, LD is a processing disorder. As I read this thread and the others on this topic, I see persons with LD being demonized. And I think that is very unfair.

I also stick to my original impression that Ms. England made a choice to participate in this torture, she was not ordered to do so. To now excuse this choice because of an incorrect assumption of how a LD affects the ability to reason and make decisions is just plain wrong.

[XemaSab]

19. This makes it sound

like all learning disabled people are crazy, retarded, or both.

[NYC]

28. Or cruel.

There is cruelty involved. It is not just following orders. Some people are incapable of cruelty.

And, if as someone said above, her I.Q. was 70, what was she doing in the army?

[proud2BlibKansan]

35. If her IQ is 70

then she is NOT learning disabled.

[dkhbrit]

20. Well

What about the 10's of thousands of innocent people that have been oxygen deprived by this war?

I think the defence in this case are really just clutching at straws and trying to earn their crust.

[Gyre]

25. This is a military tribunal people.

The "fix is in" if you will. You're acting like this is a real court with impartial fact-finders. Not even close.

Gyre

[daleo]

27. Oxygen deprivation - OK, that's her excuse.

Now, what about Bush, Cheney, Rummy, Rice, Powell, Blair, Bolton, Perle, Karpinski, Sanchez, Berscleloni, a majority of Congress, PNAC, and just over half of all Americans that voted last November? Apologies for those I missed, I know there are plenty more.

[Erika]

29. I feel so sorry for Grainer/England's Child

It should have a low enough IQ that it should join the Bushies and Freepers.

[AnnInLa]

34. Scapegoating women and muslims

Please consider this post over on http://americablog.org:

The Abu Ghraib saga continues
by Chris in Paris - 5/4/2005 01:58:00 AM

"The shocking aspect is not that Lynddie England is claiming she was oxygen deprived at birth (though if that was the case, what does this say about the people in our armed forces?) but that so much attention continues to be focused on her. Why is it that despite similar stories at Gitmo and Afghanistan, mysteriously nobody at the top is guilty of anything? Oh sorry, I forgot that there was a reprimand against Brig. General Janis Karpinski who was clearly the mastermind of this global program.

It's an interesting coincidence that Karpinski and England are both women and are being shouldered with so much of the blame in the media. It's also probably well noted in the region that the one person in the US forces who is receiving the harshest possible sentence (death by lethal injection) for crimes committed in the region, is a Muslim."

Looks like the old boy network is alive and well in the US military. A real bang-up job once again on the PR front as well.

[wicket]

38. Soldier Unhappy England Pleaded Guilty

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=514&e=2&u=/ap/20050504/ap_on_re_us/prisoner_abuse_england

The reputed ringleader in the Abu Ghraib scandal said he was unhappy that Pfc. Lynndie England pleaded guilty to mistreating Iraqi detainees at the Baghdad-area prison in 2003.

In a handwritten note given to reporters Tuesday, Pvt. Charles Graner said he wanted England to fight the charges.

"Knowing what happened in Iraq, it was very upsetting to see Lynn plead guilty to her charges," wrote Graner, who was scheduled to testify Wednesday at England's sentencing hearing. "I would hope that by doing so she will have a better chance at a good sentence."

Graner, who was found guilty in January and is serving a 10-year prison term, continues to argue that he and the other Abu Ghraib guards were following orders from higher-ranking interrogators when they abused the detainees.

[FloridaPat]

39. What percentage of women are in the armed services? What percentage

are taking the rap for this crime that the White House should be taking?

[demnan]

40. I'm sure that he's right

It doesn't seem right to me at all that these two are punished and others not even reprimanded.

[GregW]

41. Oh, puh-lease

Graner is the asshole you see in the photos with prisoners in headlocks and him punching them. England's photos looked 'staged', Graner looks like he enjoyed it.

[funkybutt]

42. I have a relative who was deprived of Oxygen at Birth

and she is pretty obviously impaired. She has some problems with speech and usage of appropriate vocabulary. She gets words mixed up all the time. I get the impression that her disability affects every aspect of her life. She simply does not operate at the same mental or emotional level of normal adults. She's not too slow to have a drivers license or perform most everyday tasks but it is pretty noticable when engaged in a conversation with her.

I'm not sure if Lyndie's case is this severe but if it is, I think this is some very strong evidence. I don't believe that she would have the same capacity to stand up to her superiors and refuse to obey an order.

[demokatgurrl]

43. Oh, puhleeeeeeease. n/t