Expelled worshippers consider legal action

[RCPJAP]

A pastor who led a charge to kick out nine church members who refused to support President Bush was the talk of the town Saturday in this mountain hamlet, with ousted congregants considering hiring a lawyer.


Morris said Saturday that some of the ousted members planned to meet with an attorney on Monday to discuss their options. “We’re hoping he (the attorney) will make him leave so that the church members can come back,” she said.

Bobby Joe McClure, 69, has been an active Democrat for more than 40 years and is former chairman of the Haywood County Democratic Party. He said the church controversy has “really opened up a can of worms. It’s really, truly disgusting. Haywood County is a wonderful place and I don’t think we need to be mixing church and state. You go to church to worship God, not for politics.”

Other former members of the church declined to speak with a reporter Saturday, citing the advice of their attorney. But the furor over politics at the church was the talk of Waynesville, a community of about 9,200.

http://www.citizen-times.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20050508/NEWS01/50507013/1001&template=printart

[Kagemusha]

1. What legal action would that be?...

Wha?...

Seriously, wha?...

[LiberallyInclined]

2. well- the church needs to lose it's tax-free status asap...

that's probably gonna cost them a bit

[Kagemusha]

3. That's the government's business, not of the people kicked out.

So I'm still lost.

[burrowowl]

4. The House has already thought about this

see their bill:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=102&topic_id=1451745&mesg_id=1451745

[Kagemusha]

7. I did. And it's apples and oranges.

Endorsing a candidate is not the same as kicking out people who do not vote for that candidate.

[struggle4progress]

26. Maybe not apples and oranges: Waynesville may be a deliberate effort ..

.. by the organized wingnuts to provoke a reaction they can cite to bolster their bill in congress.

[sandnsea]

31. How can you say that??

Of course it is. That is exactly what it is. It's worse than endorsing a candidate. Clear violation of these people's first amendment rights. It can be a case just like prayer in school or saying the pledge. Except it's against a church.

[losdiablosgato]

34. There may not be much that will be done

the courts are usually loathed to become involved in doctirnal issues with churches.

[Dr Fate]

5. No State Action here- how about defamation of some sort?

I don't know all the facts...

[DanCa]

6. Just off hand

Defamation of character and emotional abuse. Thats for starters. How about libel and the violation of the parishioner's constitutional rights. The first amendment gives us the right to practice religion
Personally I hope they nail this church for every scent they have. Than they'll finaly leave us alone. And isn't it a coeincidence that the money monkey disappered over seas when this happened?

[Kagemusha]

9. This church also has the right to practice religion.

Defamation of character? Over what - that they voted? Emotional abuse? Freedom of religion. Libel? Same with defamation. Unless they're going to claim it's libel because they really voted for Bush, I don't see the grounds. If he wants to run his religion like an ass, it's his religion and they can quit if they want (as 40 others who weren't kicked out, did).

But hey, they're welcome to try. And by no means should they be allowed to do all this with an exemption from taxation on the grounds that the church is a charitable organization.

[chomskysright]

20. here's the skinny: I went to that church today:

and I grew up Baptist and so understand some of this:

9 members, back in October, must have indicated in some way that they were not going to vote for Bush or perhaps simply that they didn't think it was right that they be told how to vote. the pastor essentially told the people who were going to vote for Kerry that they needed 'to repent or get out.' So, they got out. Then sometime in the past month or two, maybe less, 40 more members joined them in solidarity. There were about these many of the ousted members today standing outside the church, looking kind of forlorn, like: are we really going to be able to back in?

their attny was with them.

so was AP, newspapers, CNN, etc.

Baptist church pastors can essentially----I guess on the basis of bylaws----vote people in or out. Its not clear to me whether the original people were voted in or out. However, today at church: the pastor stated: there's going to be a business meeting on Tuesday and its FOR CHURCH MEMBERS ONLY.

So, basically, they have lost their church.

The Southern Baptists recently decided to not back Jones (R-NC) bill re:

http://www.bpnews.net/bpnews.asp?ID=20646
ERLC no longer supporting Houses of Worship bill
Apr 25, 2005
By Tom Strode
WASHINGTON (BP)--The Southern Baptist Convention’s public policy entity has withdrawn its support for a bill it says no longer protects the free speech rights of churches.

The Ethics & Religious Liberty Commission announced April 25 it would not back the latest version of the Houses of Worship Free Speech Restoration Act, H.R. 235, because of revisions the ERLC sees as increasing the likelihood of government intervention in churches and other religious bodies.

I think they're essentially screwed, the Southern Baptists and if we can kick up enough dust re: reporting to IRS at:

<http://www.irs.gov/help/page/0,,id=13148,00.html

then heads will roll at the top or perhaps at the top and bottom too.

[chomskysright]

21. report the Southern Baptists to the IRS:

<http://www.irs.gov/help/page/0,,id=13148,00.html

[salin]

25. If all this happened in October... then why is the story getting juice

now? It keeps being written about as if this was a recent action. The story picked up refers to a vote - and to congregants applauding when the dem members were voted out. Maybe the events happened earlier - but there was a formal "vote" recently?

[struggle4progress]

28. The expulsion vote was Monday. eom

[Lars39]

23. They also voted to write letters stating that the ousted members

left in "bad standing". For SBC-speak, that can equal to defamation of character.

[ashling]

12. I agree, it stinks

Personally I hope they nail this church for every scent they have.

every cent too
:)

[johnaries]

30. I think "scent" may have been appropriate...

this definitely SMELLS!
:hi:

[ashling]

33. Agreed

:woohoo:

[libnnc]

8. Well, whatever happens

they want their church back and they want this self-proclaimed minister gone. They've been trying to get rid of him for a while and they've been in the minority so far.

I see no problem with these folks getting lawyered-up. Let the lawyer decide if they have a case or not. I wish them the best of luck.

[DanCa]

17. Me too

To be degrade like this is horrible jr high school crap. I cant believe that there are people actually defending this behavior.
Oh well I guess ever mal adjust has thier reasons.

[Charlie Brown]

10. I believe I read that the pastor violated the Church's bi-laws

by expelling them from membership. In which case, the congregants can and should file suit. A judge should also award damages because of public defamation and duress.

[Erika]

11. This all makes organized religion as appealing

as dog poop. But to think I'm paying taxes to make up for the taxes they are NOT paying, is disgusting.

[DrDebug]

13. You are right. The pastor violated it's own laws

First he has no grounds to dismiss them for political reason and he didn't follow procedure either, because all the church members first need to vote before he could throw them out.

Section 5 - Discipline - The discipline of this church is embodied in the constitution and these by-laws and in such church policies as may be adopted from time to time by vote of the church membership.

In the event of the need for disciple of a church member, the Diaconate shall follow the procedure given by the Lord Jesus Christ in Matthew 18:15-17 to seek repentance and reconciliation. Such person or persons will be spoken to by one who has prepared himself with prayer for the purpose of bringing about repentance.

If the one will not be heard, a second attempt should be made with one or two more, after much prayer for the purpose of bringing repentance that would lead to reconciliation.

If they will not be heard, then such a member shall be given an opportunity to appear before the Diaconate, which, after prayerful consideration, shall make recommendation to the Leadership Team for any disciplinary action.

The member shall have the right to appear before the Leadership Team] and to appeal any decision of the Leadership Team to the church. The majority of the active church members present and voting shall be required for dismissal.

[LiberalFighter]

19. The key is why they were dismissed from the church.

Political reasons would not justify such action according to their by-laws.

Lack of attendance would be a reason.
Not being baptized in Christ and take the Bible as their only rule of faith and practice.
Not demonstrating a positive Christian character and lifestyle consistent with the scriptures.
Not faithful in personal spiritual disciplines essential to the Christian life.
Contribute regularly for its financial support and benevolence.
Share in carrying out the ministries of the Church.


Nothing about having the wrong politics.

[BR_Parkway]

14. Yeah, as members of the church, they may have similar standing

as stockholders within a corporation and can sue the boardmembers to effect changes.

on edit - I'm sure one of those Liberty trained lawyers will be representing the church and they'll start spinning this as another "attack on faith". Looks like the preacher's been told by a lawyer to keep his mouth shut already.

[Sgent]

15. couple of options

1) Depending on the bylaws of the church, the members may have standing to force a general membership vote, a board vote, or election of a new board.

2) For pure vindictiveness, they could file a Qui Tam claim in Federal Court, alledging that the church has been violating its status as a 501(c)3 and is subject to taxation. They could alledge this for up to 3 years back, and depending on the state law could also collect on state taxes. Any amount owed they would get a percentage of.

[pie]

18. That Qui Tam claim sounds like an excellent idea

Good to see they did not just forgive and forget.

[chomskysright]

22. that's some evil thinkin' there: I LIKE it:

[struggle4progress]

27. NC Secy of State also has statutory authority to issue interrogatories ...

... to a corporation to determine if it is operating in accordance with law. Bad results can include administrative or judicial dissolution. See SOS website.

[chomskysright]

24. good info here: I'm collecting it and will be writing local article:

[zanne]

16. Religion corrupts politics. Politics corrupts religion.

I think it was only a matter of time before we saw something like this happen. Now what happens to not only those Democrats, but the church that expelled them? They can't claim to have a purely religious function anymore; doesn't that hurt them as much as it hurts those ex-members?

[daleo]

29. The pastor sounds like a Dominionist

Read this month's Harper's.

[progressivebydesign]

32. if it's true the other worshippers applauded their ouster..

..then why do they think dumping that jackass preacher would make a difference? Perhaps they need to rethink why exactly they are members of a branch of religion that apparently despises them?

WWJB?
(who would Jesus bounce?)

[Toots]

35. The one thing Republicans are deathly afraid of is lawyers and courts

They just cannot stand to be held accountable. We need to bring in lawyers at every single opportunity just to make them sweat a little if for no other reason.