Parents Sue School for Banning 'God' Song

[maddezmom]

Filed at 6:58 a.m. ET

NEWARK, N.J. (AP) -- A public school prohibited a second grader from singing a religious song at a talent show, prompting a lawsuit Friday alleging violation of the girl's constitutional rights.

A federal judge declined an emergency request to compel Frenchtown Elementary School to allow 8-year-old Olivia Turton to sing ''Awesome God'' at the Friday night show, but allowed the lawsuit to go forward.

School officials in the western New Jersey community had said the performance would be inappropriate at a school event. A message seeking comment from a school board attorney about the judge's ruling was not immediately returned.

The decision by U.S. District Judge Stanley R. Chesler in Trenton to consider the case later came just hours before Olivia had hoped to sing the pop song by the late Rich Mullins.

~snip~
more: http://www.nytimes.com/aponline/national/AP-Religious-Song-Barred.html?

[Blue Gardener]

1. Why can't she sing it at church?

And sing something more appropriate at a PUBLIC school. Or better yet, send the kid to a Christian school where she can sing her "God Song" till her heart's content.

[KittyWampus]

88. Why Can't She Sing It At SCHOOL During A Talent Contest?

I did a biography report in honors English in 11th grade about the life of Jesus because I felt it would be interesting and a challenge.

My teacher loved the report.

IMO, the parents have a case and many of the comments on this thread are ultimately just anti-religious BIGOTRY.

[Bluebear]

93. If it were a MUSLIM chant do you think it would be welcomed by Christians?

This anti-religious bigotry you speak of, let's at least admit that the conservative Christian faction only want THEIR songs included.

[Name removed]

95. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Bluebear]

97. Don't start rattling at me how I stereotype and that I am prejudiced

You don't know me.

As to "most Christians would love to hear Muslim chants", something tells me that Judge Roy Moore and Jerry Falwell would be screaming about it.

[saigon68]

146. let her sing this ----------Cuz we'll put a boot in your ass

Hey Uncle Sam put your name at the top of his list
And the statue of liberty started shaking her fists
And the eagle will fly
And its gonna be hell
When you hear mother freedom start ringing her bell
And it will feel like the whole wide word is raining down on you
Brought to you courtesy of the red, white and blue

Justice will be served
And the battle will rate
This big dog will fight when you rattle his cage
You�ll be sorry you that you messed with the US of A
Cuz we'll put a boot in your ass
It�s the American way

Hey Uncle Sam put your name at the top of his list
And the statue of liberty started shaking her fists
And the eagle will fly
And its gonna be hell
When you hear mother freedom start ringing her bell
And it will feel like the whole wide word is raining down on you
Brought to you courtesy of the red, white and blue

Of the red white and blue
Of my red white and blue




Courtesy Of The Red White And Blue
Artist: Toby Keith


THE TROOPS LOVE THIS AS THEY KICK IRAQI ASS.

[gorbal]

142. I agree

Unless it was a particularily offensive song I don't see what the problem is. Will we next ban "Stairway To Heaven" at school dances, and not let people sing "Amazing Grace", "What if God was one of us" or various Leonard Cohen songs.

I don't know if I would sue though, schools are running out of money these days.

[Seabiscuit]

138. Because her parents made her attempt to sing it at school in order to

get publicity for their intended lawsuit - whether it's merely publicity seeking or a purely ignoramus dead-earnest attempt to challenge Constitutional law, the parents are solely to blame.

[u2spirit]

2. Frivolous lawsuits

I thought these type of people were appalled by frivolous lawsuits. Who would have known!

[KittyWampus]

90. Define What You Mean Be "These Type Of People". Are You Saying Only

religious fundamentalists would ever consider singing a religious song?

EVER HEAR OF GOSPEL?

Was this young woman BLACK?

[SemperEadem]

159. if it was a gospel song, it would have said so.

If she was black, the article would have said that, too.

Her parents did this to become this week's poster child at focus on the family... they did it for their own self-advertisement and to act like their faith is so under siege when it's not.

Perhaps the school should have let her sing and the whole audience get up and leave during her performance. You can't force people to sit and listen to what they don't want to listen to. Would have traumatized the girl, but then again, her parents assured her of that happening with their selfishness and self-centeredness.

[rooboy]

3. I wonder if the lawsuit would have been allowed to proceed...

if the child was Islamic and the song referred to Allah.

[nine30]

5. Exactly..

what if the song began with "AllahoAkbar.." (God is Great) or whatever...the same words spoken by the terrorists as they plowed their planes into the WTC..?

[Lone_Star_Dem]

4. This is a two edged sword

What would they say if some child wanted pay tribute to Andrew Lloyd Webber and preformed Heaven On Their Minds (Jesus Christ Superstar)?

You see, that's why it's best to separate church and state, we don't all hold to the same beliefs. If you don't want your toes stepped on don't step on someone else's.


To borrow from Aretha Franklin...

R-E-S-P-E-C-T
Find out what it means to me.

[davidinalameda]

113. apples and oranges

JC Superstar was a secular production

if you remember, the fundies at the time were outraged that anyone who refer to Jesus as a "superstar" and that the musical was somehow not honoring him

the song that this girl wants to sing, or rather her mother wants her to sing, is a religious song

[Wright Patman]

6. In Texas

the kid would be hailed as a heroine. The school board and mayor would both issue proclamations praising her. Any criticism would be met with total ostracism from the community.

We are (at least) two different countries. I don't see how this can be held together too much longer short of a return to violence a la the 1860s. God forbid because with the weapons in both private and public hands today, millions would be dead within a few months.

[cmd]

7. I'm a huge believer in the separation of church and state

but believe the the girl should have been able to sing that song. She wasn't demanding the rest of the school to join in. I don't want to become a secular fundamentalist. That would be just as bad as the Christian fundies.

[DrRang]

9. Agree with cmd

Yeah, it's a pukey song, but I agree that the kid should be able to sing whatever she wants in a talent contest, short of something that would be banned in a "family newspaper."

[WI Independent]

11. I agree...

Freedom of speech is in the same amendment. Allowing her to exercise that right is not an endorsment of the content.

[donco6]

14. This song is intensely offensive to me.

And when the sky was starless in the void of the night
(our God is an awesome God)
He spoke into the darkness and created the light
(our God is an awesome God)
Judgment and wrath he poured out on to Sodom
Mercy and grace He gave us at the cross
I hope that we have not too quickly forgotten that
our God is an awesome God

You really think this is OK to sing in school? I don't.

[cmd]

31. We aren't talking about the music teacher here

This child is expressing her freedom of speech. I will defend it.

[SidDithers]

40. Would it also then be appropriate for the child to sing...

Add it Up, but the Violent Femmes?

Why can’t I get just one kiss
Why can’t I get just one kiss
Believe me there’d be somethings that I wouldn’t miss
But I look at your pants and I need I need a kiss

Why can’t I get just one screw
Why can’t I get just one screw
Believe me I know what to do
But something won’t let me make love to you

Why can’t I get just one fuck
Why can’t I get just one fuck
I guess it’s something to do with luck
But I waited my whole life for just one
Day afterday
I get angry
And I will say
That the day
Is in my sight
When I’ll take a bow
And say goodnight

After all, she's just expressing her freedom of speech.

Sid

[tjdee]

47. Exactly.

They should sing whatever they want at a talent show.

The problem I have, though, would be people defending the right to sing the song you posted, or as I say below, the DiVinyl's "I touch myself"...but not the right to sing about how God's great (and going to kick your ass).

The school should either make written rules, or let it be the kids' choice.

[slackmaster]

74. I love that song and personally think it should be allowed

In a high school talent show.

[SemperEadem]

160. we're talking about an 8 yr old, not a high schooler

I doubt that anyone would get a pass to sing that at a high school talent show. That would have to be snuck in at the last minute.

[Maat]

115. There's just one problem - the Constitution and the Law.

Please refer to my previous post, or google "Engel v. Vitale."

[bunkerbuster1]

148. I'd defend her right to sing that song

but I wouldn't expect her to win!

[Maat]

114. No, this is about the government (the public school)..

sponsoring religion, which they are not constitutionally permitted to do.

Why is the school SPONSORING it - because they set up the show and they control content. That's the law. See "Engel v. Vitale."

It would be better if a private org. (say, the Talent Show Club) set up the event, and it was part of equal access to public facilities. That would be easy to do, and expression such as this would not be limited. Volunteers could fundraise.

[slackmaster]

73. If you were in the audience at the talent show you would have options

You could:

- Sit quietly and decline to applaud, or

- Laugh, or

- Boo, or

- Put your hands over your ears and shout "LA LA LA I can't hear you!", or

- Heckel and attempt to disrupt the show, or

- Leave, or

Use your imagination.

You really think this is OK to sing in school? I don't.

Nobody is forcing you to sing it or to listen to it.

IMO your right to not feel offended does not trump freedom of expression.

[MADem]

82. What that says, in roundabout fashion

...is that OUR God is AWESOME, and YOUR god SUCKS!!!

It's with 'em, or agin' 'em...to crappy-sappy music!!!

[LostinVA]

103. Yeah, you're right

That meaning is inherent in the lyrics.

[LostinVA]

102. I was very ambivalent about this until I read the mention

of Sodom. Oy. I really hope this kid's parents didn't tell her to sing this on purpose. *sigh*

[mahatmakanejeeves]

33. I also agree

.

[Maat]

35. If she had sung that song, my daughter and I would have left.

The last thing I want to be subjected to is a Christian song. I am not a Christian, and find them very annoying and offensive. It would have been awkward.

Boy, I'm glad my kid goes to a private school, with Native Americans who practice their own brand of spiriutality, Muslims, Hindus, Christians, Religious Scientists (our faith) and Latter Day Saints. Her school would never permit this. They have general references to a 'God' now and then, in a bit they say every morning at assembly, but that's it.

Conservative Christians have to realize how an effort like that is interpreted: when most of my atheist friends hear something like this, they hear, "I am a Conservative Christian. I'm all about bullying you, and hitting you over the head constantly with my particular belief system. Here I go ..."

The right has built an extensive infrastructure. They have legal organizations such as the Alliance Defense Fund and Liberty Counsel, who have spread the word out far and wide to their fundamentalist base - that they will represent anyone in a suit of this nature for free. They are backed by dominionist-style multi-millionaires. They are relentless bullies.

[cmd]

38. I'm just as glad that my kids went to a public school

There they have to right to sing songs that are offensive to others. They have the right to read Huckleberry Finn and Catcher in the Rye. They can learn those beautiful spiritual songs sung by the slaves in the fields of the South. And they can learn why they have the rights to do all of these things. Offensive or not, the girl had a right to sing the song of her choice at the talent show. I believe that the ACLU would back her in this. She doesn't need the right wing bullies.

Now, all that said, please understand that the song she chose grates my skin as does God Bless America. I would choose to listen to her, then tell others that I think the song is offensive and why.

[Maat]

45. The school may preclude itself sponsoring religion,

and, in fact, that's what it would need to do.

The only time a student's right to express religion is protected is during breaks and lunches and such.

A talent show, not part of the curriculum, but still arranged by the school, probably would preclude her singing that song.

If a private group had arranged the talent show, using the public facilities by the same rules as any other private group, then her expression would be protected.

This is the way I see it.

If it truly was a private event, then we could just not participate or go out of the room during that song.

[slackmaster]

77. How about a disclaimer on the flyer for the talent show?

Some legalese crap like "The musical compositions performed tonight are the choices of the performers alone, and do not imply endorsement by the school, its faculty, or staff of the content of the music."

Problem solved.

[Maat]

111. Not sure if that would work constitutionally, but it is a good idea.

Because the key is whether or not the school controls content.

The best thing would be for a private organization, say the 'Talent Show Club' to ask for equal access to the facilities (to which they are entitled), and hold the event. Then, they would make the rules. And THEY could issue flyers with the appropriate caveats.

[phylny]

55. You said beautifully what I was struggling to put into words. n/t

[slackmaster]

76. The spirituals are wonderful to perform

One time when I was about 16, Jester Hairston came to our church to act as a guest conductor in a program of his music that the adult choir performed. I sang in the tenor section.

[tjdee]

43. In a public school, you are open to that, it's true.

That's the whole point. In public school you ARE subjected to everyone and everyone's beliefs.

In a private school, she wouldn't have been allowed--but IMO, in a public school, you pays your money you takes your chances.

[KittyWampus]

91. If It Was A Black Or Brown Girl Singing Gospel Would You Leave?

you know you wouldn't.

[Maat]

112. Not so. I would leave if that song were being sung period.

I am one of the few that is not crazy about my daughter being exposed to what I feel is fundamentalist nonsense.

[SemperEadem]

162. I would...

I"m black and I can't stand gospel music. It's noise to me.

[saigon68]

150. These called "fundies" are evil people possessed by the devil

[donco6]

8. Here are the lyrics to the song - Michael W Smith:

I think it's completely inappropriate for a public school.

When He rolls up His sleeves
He ain't just puttin' on the ritz
(our God is an awesome God)
There is thunder in His footsteps
And lightning in His fist
(our God is an awesome God)
Well, the Lord wasn't joking
When He kicked 'em out of Eden
It wasn't for no reason that He shed his blood
His return is very close and so you better be believing
that our God is an awesome God

REFRAIN
Our God(our God) is an awesome God
He reigns(He reigns) from heaven above
With wisdom(with wisdom) pow'r and love
our God is an awesome God

And when the sky was starless in the void of the night
(our God is an awesome God)
He spoke into the darkness and created the light
(our God is an awesome God)
Judgment and wrath he poured out on to Sodom
Mercy and grace He gave us at the cross
I hope that we have not too quickly forgotten that
our God is an awesome God

Refrain x3

Our God is an awesome God
Our God is an awesome God
(Our God is an awesome God)
(Our God is an awesome God)

[hatrack]

12. "He's a giant super-duper God who's going to kick your ass

If you dare to disobey your Mom and don't take out the trash."

:eyes:

[msongs]

36. more criminal behavior in the name of godddddd....eom

[MADem]

83. Hahahaha!!!!!!!!!!

You need to start writing that Xtian rock--you'd make a fortune!

[Julius Civitatus]

27. Lyrics are not appropriate

The subtext of the lyrics is:

• our god is better than yours
  
• our god can kick your god's ass
  
• our god doesn't mess around; look what he did to those gays in Sodom
  
• you better get ready, cause he's coming back to kick your ass

Roughly, that's your "cute" song, right there. I'm not surprised they banned it, although I think that by banning it they are actually bringing more attention to it. Tough choice.

[slackmaster]

68. You take the high road and I'll take the low road,

And I'll get to Scotland before you.

NEENER NEENER!

:hi:

[tjwmason]

151. And this wouLdn't be an issue in ScotLand

Or down here in EngLand either.

I am truLy shocked by the responses of some DUers. Yes this is a pretty crappy song, yes it's naff - but at a time where there are serious issues of state reLigion is making such a huge fuss over an 8 year-oLd at eLementary schooL singing in a taLent show anything other than sheer insanity?

How far do we take this - is showing chiLdren the mediaevaL masters in an art cLass (they're nearLy aLL reLigious) breaching the separation of Church and State? In both cases reLigious art is being examined in a saecuLar context.

We need to teach our chiLdren respect, this does have to go both ways. I (as a moderateLy devout Christian) wouLd have no probLem with IsLamic music, or Hindu music, or Jewish music, or saecuLar music - and I think that atheists shouLd be the same about Christian music.

[Maat]

39. Thanks for the lyrics.

That convinces me even more that this is just Conservative Christian bullying - bludgeoning anyone not of their faith over the head persistently with it.

I would not have sat through this.

[tjdee]

41. Rich Mullins wrote this, btw....

I think a number of DUers would have liked Rich Mullins. He was a very earthy type....but anyway.

She should have been allowed to sing it, and people should have been allowed to leave, if it bothered them SO much, or just listen to her choice of song, wait till the next song, and be over it.

I am not selective in my free speech opinions, and if someone wanted to sing a song about Satan being his best pal, I would be okay with that too.

You guys do realize that this is where the fundies feel like they're being attacked, right?

[Maat]

46. I appreciate your beliefs, but ..

her singing would probably be unconstitutional if the school sponsored the event, and controlled its content.

[tjdee]

51. But where is the line drawn?

Would a sexually explicit song be allowed? AFAIK, there is no separation of church/sex, LOL.

This is why the fundies go apecrazy.

I'm sure you are correct on the legal aspect of this, but I don't think many people realize that, indeed, the 'public' school is a really the STATE school. 'Public' implies something different than "state".

[Maat]

109. Well, you're right, they should recognize that the school is the ..

government. Maybe I need to shout that loudly and clearly.

I feel that the Fundies go crazy because they resent anyone interfering with their relentless campaign.

I research the religious right and constitutional law for my writing. I just graduated from law school. So, I monitor the Conservative Religious websites. You quickly become aware that this is not about the free exercise of their religion; it is about JAMMING their version of religion down any non-believers throat. They encourage kids to go into school like this and set up 'test cases' by fundie lawyers spreading the word that they will defend anyone or sue on behalf of anyone for free (by anyone I mean a Conservative Religious Bully).

And, as to sexually-explicit lyrics, believe me, the school's have no trouble with the law relating to that.

Basically, the Supreme Court permits the student to wear jackets and t-shirts with messages; they need a compelling interest to curb that speech. A compelling reason would be acting to preclude total disruption of scholastic activities. A student may pray during breaks and lunches, and church groups must be allowed equal access to public facilities.

The Supreme Court gives wide latitude to the schools; they are not a anything-goes forum.

The Supreme Court also has made it clear that 'obscene' speech is not protected.

[donco6]

53. WTF?

"Bothered them SO much"?

What's that supposed to mean? That we shouldn't be bothered by it?

"And judgment and wrath He poured out on Sodom
Mercy and grace He gave us at the cross
I hope that we have not too quickly forgotten that
Our God is an awesome God"

As a gay man, I kinda find it EXTREMELY OFFENSIVE that some little kid would be singing a song telling me I'm going straight to hell.

[tjdee]

58. I believe in free speech.

And I would be as supportive of it if the lyrics included "all black people should be shot".

It is her right to sing the song. The talent show allowed the students to choose their own song, that's the one she (or her parents, or whoever) chose.

Of course, it is my right to hate that girl's parents, stand with my back to her during the performance, and leave.

[donco6]

63. Really?

"And I would be as supportive of it if the lyrics included "all black people should be shot"."

OK, thanks.

[tjdee]

122. Someone below called it "hate speech"...

which would make it not protected as free speech. And I obviously don't think it is okay to call people kike/fag/nigger in school (even though it is technically free speech), but I disagree that this song is to that level.

And I do believe that the first amendment is the most important amendment we have--particularly today. I certainly would defend hate *speech* for that reason. Obviously as someone says below, hate speech creates a hostile environment which is a separate issue (in my head)--and again, somehow I don't think an eight year old girl singing "Awesome God" at a talent show is the same as NeoNazis screaming racial/otherwise slurs in people's faces.

We disagree. :(

[GirlinContempt]

72. So, that girl should

be able to call people 'fag' 'kike' or 'spic' in school? That, arguably, is free speech as well. It's also hate speech. Which I think singing songs about how god kicks the ass of gay people also falls under.

[slackmaster]

79. Gay people don't have a monopoly on "sodomy"

I'm heterosexual and have done many things that are considered to be sodomy. Ich bin ein Sodomlander!

I believe the song is an attack on all non-believers, not just one group or another. As such it doesn't bother me, because so much of what fundamentalist Christians believe is utter bullshit.

[GirlinContempt]

80. They may not have a monopoly on it

but I personally have never heard a Christan attack hetero sodomy, and when they talk about Sodom they're using it as an argument against gay people.

[slackmaster]

84. I have heard Christians attack hetero sodomy many times

A few states still have sodomy laws on the books. They apply to heterosexuals as well as homosexuals.

...and when they talk about Sodom they're using it as an argument against gay people.

Yes, it's likely that her parents are using her as a pawn to promote their bigoted ideas. Who believes such a young girl or any of her peers would understand what Sodom means in an adult modern cultural context? I am pretty much a purist on freedom of speech. I'd be in favor of allowing a group of boys to dress up in lederhosen and sing Nazi marching songs in the talent show. Sure a lot of people, maybe just about everyone, would be offended, but if you don't let outrageous ideas see the light of day how are people to know who their enemies are? Protecting people from the truth about what bad Christianity is all about could delay or prevent the needed backlash against it.

Their hatred of gay people from your perspective is to them an act of allegiance to their truth, which to us looks like someone's interpretation of a quaint, outdated religion. They'll tell you gay people are God's children like everyone else, but it's the act of gay sex that they have a problem with because in the Bible God tells Noah's people to be fruitful and multiply. The book of Leviticus prescribes the death penalty for a homosexual act between two men. It also proscribes the eating of pork, but how many Christians follow Jewish dietary laws? I've read the whole Bible and can't recall seeing them repealed, or God saying it only applies to Jews.

Their religion is full of contradictions, their practice oozes hypocrisy at every turn. I say shine the spotlight on it. Let them say what they really believe.

[GirlinContempt]

86. While I see your point

I think what a lot of my disagreement comes down to is a cultural difference.
Some cultures value free speech to its utmost extreme.
Some cultures value the safety and wellbeing of people more than the freedom to make people feel threatened and like shit.

Yes, that sounds biased. Cause I am. The environment I was raised in, and believe in, centers around the fact that you have the right to say whatever you like, unless you're saying it in a public forum where people are forced to attend and it is offensive and could create an exclusionary or confrontational or hateful atmosphere. School. I didn't have the 'right' to swear in school, or make hateful speeches, or exclusionary remarks, because it created an atmosphere that was unfair and upsetting and didn't promote learning, or the ability of students to feel safe and included.

[SemperEadem]

163. wow

"And I would be as supportive of it if the lyrics included "all black people should be shot""

thanks for pointing yourself out.

[pie]

81. That is an excellent point. Those lyrics are 'hate speech.'

Pure and simple.

[LostinVA]

104. As a gay woman, I agree with you completely

God, the "gay marriage" debate is bad enough for giving freedom to every homophobe to call me and every other gay person in America filthy names. And to equate my 11-year-old monogamous relationship with marrying a dog. But this? Gay people pay taxes too, and this is going a bit too far. I doubt the school would allowed a White Supremacists song -- and there are many of those out there that sound all nice and Christian except for the racism and anti-semitism in there. NO difference.

And, I have no idea if this girl is white,black, Asian, etc. And I don't care.

[PurityOfEssence]

50. If you don't agree with me, you don't deserve to exist

These people claim as their right to force themselves on others and NEVER be restrained.

[Strawman]

156. Is that lyric a subtle slam at Taco?

"When He rolls up His sleeves
He ain't just puttin' on the ritz"

I bet fundies hate that song.

[progressivebydesign]

166. That song is SOOO over the top for a little kid.

Is that really the song? Those parents are odd.

[thebigidea]

10. of course, he could always sing the Residents' Godsong

God never really did like man anyway
At least not after they started walking around
On their hind legs
And talking on the telephone
Of course poor God's point of view wasn't easy now to understand
He had invented man from dead things
At that time there were no grave yards to rob
So He had been forced to use dead worms, some sea weed
That had laid out on the beach for quite a while
For quite a while.
At that time man had four legs and no telephone
A major mistake came when God decided that man should think
(A trait that He'd long desired for Himself)
What God no doubt intended was
For man to think about Him
And that was important because
God just wanted to be
Just another normal deity
Deity Deity Ty Ty Ty Ty Ty
All that God wanted to be
Was just a normal deity
All that God wanted to be
Was just another normal deity
All that God wanted to be
Was just a deity
Just a normal deity
All that God wanted to be
Just a normal deity
All that God wanted to be
Just a normal deity
All went well for quite a while
Man was a wonderful creature
With long rich engraved face
Four fine legs ending in five mini-legs
And a coat of satiney hair
And large genitals
His thoughts were pure and
Full of wonder
The wonder part was God's favorite,
(at least at first)
Because that's the part that gave Him
His Identity Identity Identity Identity
Oh, it was so wonderful for God
Man's... Man's questions turned to visions
And visions gave God
All kinds of exciting things to do
Someday He would be a God of wrath
Reeking havoc upon undiscipline mankind
And at other times He'd be a God of love and compassion
Of course these were all things that man had invented
So God had a hard time getting the full grasp
But...
One of His favorite things
Was man's believing in Him, and then not believing in Him
One of His favorite things
Was man's believing in Him, and then not believing in Him
Believing in Him, Not believing in Him
...Believing in Him, Not believing in Him
.......Believing in Him, Not believing in Him
...........Believing in Him, Not believing in Him
...............Believing in Him, Not believing in Him
...................Believing in Him, Not believing in Him
.......................Believing in Him, Not believing in Him
...........................Believing in Him, Not believing in Him
...............................Believing in Him, Not believing in Him
...................................Believing in Him, Not believing in Him
.......................................Like some hide and seek game
...................................Over
...............................And
...........................Over
.......................And
...................Over and Over
...............Believing in Him
...........Believing in Him
.......Believing in Him
...Not believing in Him...
Not believing in Him?
I think He liked believing in Him much better...
But I'm not sure...

[Julius Civitatus]

15. I love The Residents

I've been a fan of the eye-balled ones since I was a kid.

[TalkingDog]

37. Did you ever see them team up with Conway Twitty?

on NightMusic with David Sandbourne?

HEE-LARIOUS!

[Jade Fox]

13. Revolting song ("our God's better than your God" seems to be the message)

but it does seem like the kid should be allowed to sing what she wants.
It's not like the school is endorsing the song--its a talent show.

This sort of over-kill and inability to understand the difference between
this incident and a school forcing all the kids to sing religious songs as
part of school activities makes our side look bad. It also gives the religious
fanatics ammunition to feel vitimized.

[tjdee]

44. Yes, that's what I said below.

You said it better.

[Rose Siding]

16. Parents Sue N.J. School for 'God' Song Ban

NEWARK, N.J. -- A public school prohibited a second grader from singing a religious song at a talent show, prompting a lawsuit Friday alleging violation of the girl's constitutional rights.

A federal judge declined an emergency request to compel Frenchtown Elementary School to allow 8-year-old Olivia Turton to sing "Awesome God" at the Friday night show, but allowed the lawsuit to go forward.

School officials in the western New Jersey community had said the performance would be inappropriate at a school event. A message seeking comment from a school board attorney about the judge's ruling was not immediately returned.
...
The girl's lawyer, Demetrios K. Stratis, questioned how the Frenchtown school could reject Olivia's choice but allow another act based on the opening scene of "MacBeth."

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2005/05/20/AR2005052001846.html

[Ian David]

17. Macbeth? Can't cram the Shakespearian Agenda down our children's throats?

Something is rotten in the state of New Jersey.

[mitchum]

18. But that song is a piece of dreck!

I first heard a recording of it at my aunt's memorial service earlier this year. And I found myself envying her.

Does an 8 year old really have a constitutional right to bad taste?

[Massacure]

19. Yes, they have a consitutional right to bad taste.

[Maat]

48. They have a constitutional right to bad taste ..

only on their OWN time (during breaks, lunches).

If the school was sponsoring this event, and had editorial control over the content, then the plaintiff (the kid) will lose this suit. Case law (Supreme Court) makes it clear that in an event sponsored by the school, there will be no religion on the plate. The Supreme Court has precluded a private pastor from coming to a school graduation and praying when the school had some editorial control.

By the same token, a student can spontaneously pray.

This event was planned, so I believe that Plaintiff (the kid) will lose this case - UNLESS they overturn current case law (the Supreme Court).

[Massacure]

101. In what case was it decided that a kid cannot sing a religious song

at school? I want to read the ruling.

[Maat]

108. There wasn't a case about a religious song ...

the law that is applied relates to a case about school prayer.

Google "Engel v. Vitale."

No government sponsorship of anything religious - and if the school has control over content, it is sponsoring it.

[Massacure]

134. Found it.

I'm fairly confident legal documents do not apply to copyright law, so therefore I will post the entire opinion written by Justice Black.

The respondent Board of Education of Union Free School District No. 9, New Hyde Park, New York, acting in its official capacity under state law, directed the School District's principal to cause the following prayer to be said aloud by each class in the presence of a teacher at the beginning of each school day:

Almighty God, we acknowledge our dependence upon Thee, and we beg Thy blessing upon us, our parents, our teachers and our Country.

This daily procedure was adopted on the recommendation of the State Board of Regents, a governmental agency created by the State Constitution to which the New York Legislature has granted broad supervisory, executive, and legislative powers over the State's public school system. These state officials composed the prayer which they recommended and published as a part of their "Statement on Moral and Spiritual Training in the Schools," saying: "We believe that this Statement will be subscribed to by all men and women of good will, and we call upon all of them to aid in giving life to our program."...

We think that by using its public school system to encourage recitation of the Regents' prayer, the State of New York has adopted a practice wholly incon-sistent with the Establishment Clause. There can, of course, be no doubt that New York's program of daily classroom invocation of God's blessings as prescribed in the Regents' prayer is a religious activity. It is a solemn avowal of divine faith and supplication for the blessing of the Almighty. The nature of such a prayer has always been religious, none of the respondents has denied this and the trial court expressly so found...

The petitioners contend among other things that the state laws requiring or permitting use of the Regents' prayer must be struck down as a violation of the Establishment Clause because that prayer was composed by governmental officials as a part of a governmental program to further religious beliefs. For this reason, petitioners argue, the State's use of the Regents' prayer in its public school system breaches the constitutional wall of separation between Church and State. We agree with that contention since we think that the constitutional prohibition against laws respecting an establishment of religion must at least mean that in this country it is no part of the business of government to compose official prayers for any group of the American people to recite as a part of a religious program carried on by government.

It is a matter of history that this very practice of establishing governmentally composed prayers for religious services was one of the reasons which caused many of our early colonists to leave England and seek religious freedom in America. The Book of Common Prayer, which was created under governmental direction and which was approved by Acts of Parliament in 1548 and 1549, set out in minute detail the accepted form and content of prayer and other religious ceremonies to be used in the established, tax-supported Church of England...

To sum it up:
- Engel thought it wrong for the state to sponsor official prayers in class wether the students had to pray or not.
- The Supreme Court agreed.
- The part that I bolded, basically prevents the schools from leading students in prayer. It says nothing about preventing students from singing a song that mentions god.

[Bluebear]

20. "I found myself envying her"

:rofl:

Horridly insipid song!

[dhinojosa]

21. Let her sing it, just give her last place for choosing a shitty song.

That'll teach her, and protect 1st Amendment rights!

[mcscajun]

22. I'm figuring the song was picked deliberately to provoke this reaction...

...so the suit could be filed, the story could hit the corporate media, and the religious extremists can beat the 'Christianity under attack' drum ever more loudly.

[mitchum]

23. And I think that you figured correctly

Just another one of those "nuisance lawsuits" that conservatives generally deplore.

[mcscajun]

24. It's all a matter of framing.

When WE file lawsuits, they're frivolous (especially if we're attacking corporations); when THEY file lawsuits, they're righteous.

[maxrandb]

52. Yep!

More Red Meat for the Right Wing.

Sure Hannity will be setting up a tent outside the school soon.

Saw some scary fundies on C-Span yesterday. Basically saying this whole judicial fight is to return America to Jesus.

[slackmaster]

69. If you're right, banning the song is the worst possible reaction

It's always best to ignore people who try to stir up shit.

Let her sing the silly song and make a fool of herself. If she wants to upset someone, the best thing to do is not let it get it under your skin.

[CAG]

89. I agree..

Geez, a kid sings a religious song at a public school talent show. Now we have people on this board suggesting that this somehow imposes upon them and offends them.

I wonder what they think about all of the foreign language classicals and the orchestral movements created by Bach, etc, that were written as praises to God, should high school choirs and bands be banned from playing these? How about all of those public radio stations playing all of these songs 24/7, should they be banned??

This is why the term "politically correct" was invented and why it strikes such a chord with mainstream america; the girl just sings a song and people act like they're going to have a coronary....

[Dora]

157. I agree.

It's a talent show - the performers choose their material.

If religious content is disallowed, it needs to made clear as a rule from the getgo.

If it was a school production, like a choral performance that students rehearsed during school hours with coaching from the music director or some other figure, then I think religious content could be considered unallowable.

[Maat]

116. YOU hit the nail on the head.

[SemperEadem]

164. and they could get on Fux and whine the next day

watch the makeover from the first time you see their faces throughout the whole process...

whine about your religious freedoms being taken away and get a free makeover!!!!!

[progressivebydesign]

168. It's a mental condition, I'm certain. The need for religious drama.

I'm noticing more and more that the ultra christian clergy are whipping up their faithful (with the help of the uberchristians in D.C.) to believe that they are 1) martyrs because of their faith 2) on a crusade against evil (which includes public schools). They are coached and whipped into a mass hysteria where they see every slight, every situation as an opportunity to prove to other christians that they are SUPER faithful and super martyred. They want nothing more than to fulfill a dream of appearing on Hannity with their darling child... and talk about how it feels to be persecuted (they actually think they're persecuted over shit like that). Maybe Bush will call them at home and congratulate them for standing up for their religion.. maybe they can stand behind Bush while he signs a bill that allows religious songs to be part of talent shows... it's a fantasy world for them, and they are the stars. The super faithful showing the other christians how it's done. (while God laughs at them).

What happened to "blessed are the meek, for they shall inherit the earth"???

[deadparrot]

25. Wonder if we'll hear outrage from the right

about frivolous lawsuits? :eyes:

She should be allowed to sing it, though, IMO, despite what the adults' motives are.

[Straight Shooter]

26. Some other kid ought to be allowed to sing "Jesus On A Trailer Hitch"

I'm sure a savvy DU'er could come up with some good lyrics and a catchy beat. :P

[kineneb]

65. OOh, even better:"Plastic Jesus" with the zillion verses

Plastic Jesus, Plastic Jesus,
Sitt'n on the dashboard of mah car.
Ah don't care if it rains or freezes,
Long as Ah got mah Plastic Jesus,
Sitt'n on the dashboard of mah car.

Yeeehah!

[StatGirl]

70. Or "Gimme that old-time religion" . . .

We will have a mighty orgy
in the honor of Astarte
It'll be a hell of a party
And it's good enough for me

Gimme that old-time religion, gimme that old-time religion . . .

[mcscajun]

121. Or "Jesus Loves Me (But He Can't Stand You)" by the Austin Lounge Lizards

That'd hit the religious extremists right where they live, and give the rest of the audience a good laugh.

:rofl:

http://www.austinlizards.com/jesus_loves_me.html

[kath]

137. Or how about "Oh Lord, Please Don't Burn Us" from Monty Python's "The

Meaning of Life":

O Lord, please don't burn us.
Don't grill or toast Your flock.
Don't put us on the barbecue
Or simmer us in stock.
Don't braise or bake or boil us
Or stir-fry us in a wok.
Oh, please don't lightly poach us
Or baste us with hot fat.
Don't fricassee or roast us
Or boil us in a vat,
And please don't stick Thy servants, Lord,
In a Rotissomat.

http://www.geocities.com/fang_club/Please_dont_burn_us.html

(I also really like the prayer leading up to that song:
Oh Lord, ooh, you are so big, so absolutely huge. Gosh, we're all really impressed down here, I can tell you. Forgive us, O Lord, for this, our dreadful toadying..."

http://arago4.tn.utwente.nl/stonedead/movies/meaning-of-life/06-growth-and-learning.html

[Vickers]

28. Man, they never miss a chance to proselytize, huh?

:eyes:

[Toots]

30. That is exactly what it is too...Proselytizing at a school event

IMHO that is and should be a no no.

[DemBones DemBones]

29. If she'd wanted to sing "God Bless America," I might go along with it,

but not *that* tacky song. Too much like "My God Can Beat Up Your God."

:puke:


Some people's taste is all in their mouths.

[stepnw1f]

32. I Doubt This Would Be A Story Before Bush Was Selected

Notice the contraversy the press keep throwing out to the masses.

It's pretty clear: KEEP YOUR RELIGION OUT OF OUR LIVES. Any Christian claiming discrimination is a liar and a fraud to their supposed faith. Her parents were well aware of the reaction their daughter would get.

I will now protest inside of a Church, claiming that God does not exist. Gee... I wonder how people will react?

[ckramer]

34. "Awesome God" hahaha

sounds absolutely comical to atheists.

If god is so awecome, why would 100,000 Iraqis die out of the boosh oil grab war?

[tjdee]

42. Of course she should have been able to sing the song.

I'm not surprised at the responses here, but geez, people.

Why bother giving children their choice of song if they are not allowed to choose their song? Would she have been allowed to sing "I touch myself" by the DiVinyls? That's not OOGA BOOGA RELIGIOUS!!!!

Why not just give them a songlist of accepted songs/subjects?

This is exactly why fundies are on the rampage against church/state separation. And that's not necessary. But we make ourselves wide open when we tell kids they can't sing the songs they like (if its a religious song), read a book they like if it's a religious text...

I think the fundamentalist Christians have screwed things up for everyone, hitting everyone over the head... making others hyperreactive and hysterical if they hear the word "God"....it's ridiculous, what has happened in this country. Totally unnecessary.

[ldf]

49. yeah, right.

this second grader, maybe 7 or 8 years old, chose that song.

sure. if you say so.

more like mommie and daddie chose that song for just this purpose.

[tjdee]

54. If that's all the kid's hearing at home, it's a possibility.

Do I think the kid went "Gee mom, I'd love to sing a song about God to everyone at school"? No. But then, if the kid only hears that stuff, that's possible too.

But that's irrelevant, and can't be determined. What is at stake here, IMO, is whether a child can present a religious text/song/whatever when offered the "choice" of what to present.

If it's a phony choice because it is the state school, fine. I think many people are ignorant of that. Also, I'm a freak and don't think that the eight year old is trying to proselytize, either.

[donco6]

56. It's not the God language that's offensive.

Did you even read the lyrics before spouting off?

[tjdee]

60. Yes, I know the song very well.

I've heard it many times before.

But again--would she have been allowed to sing "I touch myself"?

If the issue is "appropriateness", that's one thing. If the issue is "separation of church and state", that's another.

Either way, though, she should have been allowed to sing it, and people would have had the right to not like it.

[slackmaster]

71. Appeal to "isness"

Please,

The song offends YOU. It does not offend ME. I find it trite and silly and obnoxious.

[BR_Parkway]

107. I am not offended by the lyrics. They mean something to some

people, that doesn't mean that I have to let them apply their bigotry to me. I am incredibly offended at all the congressmen/women and the current administration that never fails to use me as political fodder - in spite of taking an oath to protect ALL Americans.

This is not the school telling her what to choose, or even that everyone at the school has to show up and sit through it. It's an out of curriculum event that some people are going to choose to go to. Some will rejoice at her song, others will scorn it and several will feel sad that her parents are using her this way.

But I don't want the gov't or some fundie group telling me that I can't read certain books, or watch certain movies or anything along the lines that they are persuing. I don't have to agree with her choice - but I'll defend to my dying breath her right to choose it.

There's a fine line between free speech and hate speech. I don't have any more belief in their mythological story about God raining fire down on a city than I do Zeus throwing lightning bolts to kill the invaders. So her choice doesn't offend me. Totally different if she was standing there yelling "faggot".

If the school picked the songs, or required mandatory attendance to the event this would be a different issue. But it was a manipulation by some people with the fundie agenda to make a point that they are "being persecuted for their faith" and they are scoring points with it.

Do I think they'd be ok with some Muslim singing similar? Or a Wiccan? Absolutely NOT. But the way to win that battle is to ignore their setups - and perhaps cause some of our own. Let them be the side of intolerance, let them be the one's protesting that someone else can't exercise the same freedoms. Show the world what they really are - not meek, mild persecuted - but bigoted bullies who want to run things their way and don't care who they use to get it.

[tjdee]

123. *Why* couldn't I have just said what you just did?

That's basically my point, you said it much, much better.

:thumbsup:

[Must_B_Free]

64. Of course you are right,

this is amazing to see som many DUers clearly coming down on the wrong side of this issue.

It's sad to see that so many progressives have such a limited understanding.

Think people: no one is being forced to sing along with her. No one is being forced to even watch. If she wants to sing this song, why the shouldn't she be allowed, because it has God in it? So what.

[GirlinContempt]

75. It's more

the implied hate speech in the song, at least for me.

[Maat]

118. The problem is government sponsorship (the school) ..

of religion. See my previous post, or google "Engel v. Vitale."

[Must_B_Free]

57. The school is wrong

This is not the school choosing this song, it's the singer, so there's nothing wrong.

She should be allowed to sing whatever song she wants.

[Maat]

119. As far as the law is concerned .. the school is choosing ..

because the school has control over content.

It would be better for a private org. to sponsor the show via the equal access rule.

Google "Engel v. Vitale."

[Ravy]

124. The school was not MANDATING content, that is where I would ...

... see this as a problem.

The Government controls the airwaves, doesn't seem to me to be a violation when I turn on the TV on Sunday mornings.

There still exists such a thing as free speech. Should a school choir be banned from singing the Halleulah Chorus? Personally, I don't think so.

[Maat]

132. The airwaves are a different thing.

That's more analogous to the private organization situation on the schools. A radio station, for example, gets a license from the government - and so it wouldn't be government sponsorship.

I don't think that, in a school district in which there could likely be a challenge, a school choir singing the Halleulah Chorus - they probably could, since the court might view that as similar to a study of the Bible in a literature class.

I didn't say the school was mandating the content; to me the key is whether or not they reviewed the content.

I'm betting that, if the school district does not cave, it will win.

[AngryWhiteLiberal]

59. 'Bout time we send out children to sing "Shout at the Devil" in church.

These christofascist fuckers need a taste of their own medicine. Let's see how they like pagan songs and rituals performed in their churches...

I'M SO FUCKING SICK OF CHRISTIANITY.

JB

[tjdee]

61. The public school is...public, no?

If someone wanted to sing Shout at the Devil right after her singing her song, that would have been fine, no?

The public school is not the sacred place of....um...it's not really akin to a church.

:shrug:

[Name removed]

62. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[slackmaster]

66. I'm an atheist but also a musician

The move to stop all expressions of art and music with religious content was just getting underway when I graduated from high school in 1975. I was very active in the school choir and madrigal ensemble, and also sang in a church youth choir (mostly to meet girls, but I really did enjoy singing). During my senior year we were for the first time in the history of the school forbidden to perform anything religious. We couldn't even sing the Hallelujah Chorus from Handel's Messiah.

By that time, age 17, my personal renouncement of the dogma snd mythology of Christianity was firmly in place, but I thought it a great shame how much of the body of great music was no longer available to us. I had plenty of Jewish friends and practictioners of various faiths, but never saw any indication that any of my fellow students were offended by Christian music. The ban was the work of busybody parents, who threatened to sue the school district even though their daughter didn't personally care.

That said, I can understand disallowing teachers from making the performance of religious material compulsory (choir and madrigals were real classes with real grades), but putting such a huge damper on what someone wishes to voluntarily perform at a talent show just plain sucks. It's censorship.

[Whoa_Nelly]

67. Why do stories such as this even get any press time???

Just as with the patriarchal display of religious fervor recently that America's laws are "God's Laws", this all gets media attention in the continuing neocon effort to create more bullshit controversy in the divide and conquer, divert and distract neocon control of the US media. Stir the Fundies into a frenzy, and we'll definitely see more loonies on the streets during the upcoming elections in '06 and '08. To Hell with the real issues that are destroying people's' lives here and abroad.

Our country has no real press anymore; The majority of it is yellow press, IMO.
:rant:

[morgan2]

78. im a religion hating atheist

but I think she should be able to sing whatever song she wants in a talent show. It would be one thing if a teacher made the chorus sing a religious song, but come on this was the girl/her families choice of what song to sing. This isnt forcing religion on people at all.

after reading the lyrics of the song, I could understand the school not letting her sing it on the grounds that it contains obsenity.

Judgment and wrath he poured out on to Sodom
Mercy and grace He gave us at the cross

I mean basically saying God killed all the evil ones and gave us xtians mercy? Why would they need mercy if they weren't evil.. I dunno, anyway the lyrics are thinly veiled obscenity.

[earth mom]

85. If she wants to sing her religious song she should sing it in a private

school-not a public school that is paid for with tax dollars from people of all faiths and no faith. I swear, I've had it with this religious nonsense-it's gotten beyond old! :grr:

[KittyWampus]

94. Should Performing Handel's Messiah Be Banned From Public Schools?

there's a HUGE cannon of classical music with religious theme.

Should all that be banned from schools including University?

[Bluebear]

99. Handel and Michael Smith. I always equate the two.

;)

[dsc]

117. The first amendment does

There is no heft requirement in the first amendment. There is no good taste requirement. They are equal when it comes to the protection of the first amendment. Either both go or both stay.

[fortyfeetunder]

126. Fundamental difference

I don't think the Messiah lyrics were as controversial, after all it was an interpretation from the Bible

[anitar1]

87. this had to be a planned event. IMO

Planned by the fundies. We will be seeing more.

[XemaSab]

92. I went to a parochial school

and I would have sat in the audience rolling my eyes at the tender age of 8.

The only thing she's going to accomplish by singing this song is irritating secularists and making the few fundies in the audience go "awww.... isn't she DEAR!" It's not going to instantly turn all the kids in the school into fundies, it will just make the non-fundies think she's a total nerd.

I think the school should have picked a better battle than telling an 8 year old she can't sing a song about God. "God Bless America," "America, America," and many other patriotic songs mention God, and I'd rather hear "America, America" than "The Star Spangled Banner" any day. SSB is a warmongering song celebrating US military might, and it's a shitty national anthem.

I agree with the above poster that the first amendment wins this one.... freedom of religion does not mean freedom FROM religion, and if we try to purge every religious expression from the public sphere, we'er fighting a very long uphill battle. If the girl was using, say, giving a speech for class to talk about Jesus' death on the cross and proseletyze to her classmates, that would be different than using a talent show to sing a song about God.

In Chorus in high school we did a Christmas show every year, and we sang some Christian songs and some Jewish songs, and the teacher was cool about it, and joked "Tell all the world....... Jesus was a Rabbi."

If she sang "Amazing Grace" or "Ave Maria" or, God forbid, "Laudamus Te" from Bach's mass in B minor, would we be this irritated?

[tammywammy]

98. I was in the orchestra all through school

And every we had a Winter concert, where yes we did play Handel's "Hallelujah" but we also played a Jewish song as well. And those were the only two religious songs we played, the rest of the concert was our pieces we were performing at contests and such.

We ended with "Hallelujah" (we were a full symphony) with the top choir singing with us. While it was a religious song, it was also powerful to see at least a hundred teenagers performing together (two separate conductors one for the symphony, one for the choir and completely in sync).

Edited to add, it was a public school too.

[fortyfeetunder]

128. Now that I've seen the lyrics

I'm a bit concerned about the interpretation.

There are many beautiful sacred songs with positive messages with no political undercurrent attached. Why this one?

[Zhade]

96. Hmmmm. Was she prompted to sing it by the school?

I don't know if this is establishment. Yeah, I think believing religion is true is silly, but I don't want to stop anyone from legally exercising their faith.

Would the school allowing this be a violation of SoCaS? I'm torn, will have to read more.

[Danmel]

100. I don't see the problem

As long as SHE is singing it voluntarily and it is a talent show and no one else is forced to sing it, what's the problem? This is the kind of over reaction that diminishes the real issue. No one is being forced to sing, or being left out if they don't. All they have to do is listen to someone's song. It might even broaden someone's horizons or open someone's mind to the beauty of DIVERSITY.

I was at a legislative hearing the other day and the daily prayer (whether there should be one or not aside) was a song by Long Island Shinnecock Native Americans who also did a dance. It was beautiful and fascinating- I had never seen a prayer like that. There is some beautiful liturgical music out there. Why can't she sing it?

[CTLawGuy]

105. I can allow her to sing that song

as long as I can sing "the Ballad of Chasey Lain" by the Bloodhound Gang as well.


also, no joke, that song was an option at a Karoke bar in MA.

[KitSileya]

106. Honestly, I don't think she should be silenced.

It would mean banning absolutely all religious music in schools, which I think would be a great shame. I'd be more interested in meeting this performance with a performance of an Islamic song, or a Buddhist song, or even a 'lewd' one, and then see how her parents react. In other words, I would like to defend this pupil's constitutional rights, and at the same time expose her fundie supporters for the hypocrites they are. I think that is the only way we can have our cake (defend the Constitution) and eat it too (shut those @ssholes up.)

[davidinalameda]

110. they're comparing the song to Macbeth?

what a bunch of fools!

I doubt that this song will be around next year let alone in 500 years

the sad thing is that the school will roll over and let these fundies win because its afraid of a lawsuit

I bet that the community would be outraged it the song was Praise Allah or something to do with a minority religion

[Maat]

120. dwickham .. I think DUers are missing the point.

If she were permitted to sing this song, it would be a violation of the LAW.

Anyone who disagrees with that needs to google "Engel v. Vitale." If the school can contol content, basically, then it amounts to government sponsorship of religion.

If they carry this forward, then the school will win. Hands down.

[dsc]

125. You have said this several times and that is just plain false

Engle vs Vitale was about a high school graduation which is considered a required event. This was not a required event. Also students who are permitted to speak, may indeed pray if they so choose. Engle involved an adult praying who would have been invited by the school. The talent show is much more analogous to club time at school, where Bible clubs can meet side by side with gay straight alliances.

[dkhbrit]

127. I am always appalled

That any child is told that the existence of god is fact, rather than allowing them the freedom to make their own decisions in later life. All religion is based on fear and oppression, and young people are the most susceptible to this. I've heard colleagues of mine tell me that telling their kids about god helps them to understand right from wrong, and how to be good to others. If you need religion to teach kids right from wrong, you have no business having kids in the first place.

[Maat]

131. Well, I agree that a student can spontaneously pray, and ..

I said that.

But how is the school not responsible when a club is not sponsoring the show - the school is?

And, as my professor so eloquently emphasized, the key to "Engel v. Vitale" was not that the pastor was invited from the outside, but that the school controlled the event and had gone over the speech with the pastor. Analogous, no?

[dsc]

133. No as you point out the school went over the prayer

Here the school didn't go over the song. They merely said we are having a talent show sing what you want.

[Maat]

135. But the school does go over the song.

You can't convince me that they don't review what the children are going to do - they certainly have that capacity. They invited the kids to come and participate in a show, just like they invited the pastor to come in and say a prayer at a graduation. In fact, we know that they did sanction each act individually. How do we know? They found the one they didn't want to sanction - HER song.

Much like the school invited that pastor in to say a prayer, and had the potential to review (and did), the school invited the school attendees to participate in a common school-sponsored event, a talent ahow.

This is not a school club using school facilities. The event is not run by private citizens. It is run by the school.

We'll see. I hope that the school does not back down. Everyone goes to graduation. Everyone goes to a school talent show (I go with my kid). I certainly expect the school to exercise editorial control since it is putting on both events. I wouldn't go the Good News Club meeting because I know what I would get. To be blindsided by Conservative Christian dogma (the words are very offensive to one of my faith) in a regular event like a talent show, would be really a big deal to me. I would want the school to exercise its control, and get rid of religious content bent on prosyletizing (her song), and I'm glad this school did.

Good luck to the school!

[dsc]

140. Then don't get upset when teh school bans something you think it

shouldn't. You don't have a right not to be offended at a talent show anymore than a Fundamentalist has a right not to be offended by the school play. In otherwords if the school bans this song then it would be within its rights to ban a reading of a scene from La Cage Aux Faux or the Laramie Project.

[kath]

136. are we sure this was not a required event ? If one performance was at

an entire-school assembly during the day (which is fairly typical, with another performance during the evening for parents), than that seems to me to constitute a "required event".

[dsc]

141. Children can and do skip attendence at that kind of thing

routinely. Many schools actually charge for the show as a fundraiser.

[davidinalameda]

129. not necessarily

the school will bend before it gets to the courts

that's the way these things have been going

it takes an outside group like the ACLU to challenge the cowards that run the schools

the administrators rather bow down to the fundies rather than follow the law--it makes better press and it pays off when the schools want to pass a school bond

[Maat]

130. Well, you have a point there!

Hi again, Dwickham! HeHeHe.

Schools often settle. Come on ACLU! I'm a proud member.

[Seabiscuit]

139. The school hasn't bent over yet - in fact it won the first round.

It answered the complaint and defeated the parents' attempt at a temporary restraining order forcing the school to allow the child to sing the "God" song.

But if the parents keep pushing this frivolous suit, undoubtedly the ACLU will get involved and make certain this case is eventually thrown out.

[Maat]

143. I hope so!

And I am grateful to the school for fighting this battle.

[SeanQuinn]

144. I've sang that song at schoo lbefore.

Then again, I do go to a Catholic school. Me and my friend had a duet..it was lmao funny.

[KamaAina]

145. Your voice is an awful voice, it grates on everyone's nerves,

and you hate women too, your voice is an awful voice!

That's how I'd join in when "Awesome God" was performed* by those picketing a New Orleans abortion clinic.

From the front lines at a clinic to a school talent show -- is this progress?

[Maat]

147. Here it is - off of my Law-in-a-Flash review cards ...

"School censorship problems typically involve student-written newspapers or speeches. The key issue is whether or not the expression just happens to occur on school premises – or whether or not it is school-sponsored. If it is not sponsored by the school, it is subject to regular First Amendment rules.
If it is school-sponsored, however, educators CAN control the style and content of student speech, as long as their actions are reasonably related to legitimate pedagogic concerns. Hazelwood v. Kuhlmeier (1988)."

I would say that this activity (the talent show) is sponsored by the school, if the supplies are paid-for with school money, and the school is arranging the show and asking the students to put on acts. Moreover, a song selection is like a speech selection.

Therefore, the school may control style and content, because it is reasonably related to a legitimate concern.

This show did not 'just happen' to occur on school premises.

[jmowreader]

149. I have no objection...

just so long as the fundy's parents have no objection to the next kid singing "Balls To Your Partner," "Roll Your Leg Over" or anything GG Allin ever did.

[Robb]

152. I don't see how the "you don't have to listen" argument

...is any different here than when it involves prayer at a football game.

The game isn't "required" either, but it's implied that participation is part of fitting in.

It has the potential to alienate some people on the basis of their beliefs. So it has no place in public school.

Sorry if I'm simplistic. :shrug:

[praxiz]

153. What about "God, won't you buy me a mercedes benz"

Would that violate the school regulations also?

[progressivebydesign]

169. It's actually "Oh Lord.." that's pretty neutral stuff. n/t

[hyphenate]

154. Let's look at this objectively

The girl is 8 years old, and happens to come from a religious family. Like many of us who grew up in a religious setting (mine was Catholic), there are certain things we used to sing which reflected our religious background--for us, it was religious toned Christmas carols. Such songs are usually the ones you learn in your single digit years because you're going to end up singing them in church, sunday school and other social gatherings.

So singing a religious based song is not that unusual. At her age, it is also likely that such musical fare is well represented in her household.

The first amendment does offer us the privilege of freedom of speech, but it also gives us the right to practice whatever religion we choose to believe in. It's not so much a privilege of freedom from religion, but of religion. This is a critical point that many people don't get. Those who came to this country (and no, not our founding fathers who happened to be mostly Dists) to escape religious persecution wanted to be able to practice whatever religious beliefs they had without any one condemning them.

The first amendment also (in Thomas Jefferson's words) tries to separate church/religious beliefs from state/government law. While the wording isn't in the actual amendment, it is clear that Jefferson and the other founding fathers were trying to make sure that no one would ever find themselves harassed or persecuted for believing whatever they wanted to believe.

Of course, these days, we are witnesses to how the radical religious right wants us all to be witness to their religion, and how they won't stand for anyone else to have the right to their own beliefs. And of course, we also are well aware that the RRR has tainted that wing of the religious "freedom" in America.

I personally would not react to the song the child was going to sing at a talent contest. When I was in high school--a very secular one, BTW--we had carols sung during Christmas, and other appropriate fare during other holidays. Those who did not hold Christian beliefs were allowed to practice their own beliefs as well, and nothing was said about how "inappropriate" a selection was.

There comes a time when we need to look at how religion now colors our world. Here in the US, many of us who no longer have religious ties tend to get very upset when stories of this sort are released--we start to scream about inequity and about how the RRR is taking over things, and in many cases, such as Roy Moore, there is a reason why we get so upset. We feel that our rights are being violated in ways that give the RRR the upper hand, so to speak, on discussions about "moral values" and how we (those of us who have no specific religion anymore or ever) feel insulted by such ludicrous charges. Fact is, we've been sucked into this faith=morality trap and now, when we need to show that it's simply a loaded statement to begin with, we find ourselves at odds with anything that has a religious taint to it.

I don't feel anything is wrong with this child singing whatever song she wanted to sing, just as long as everyone who might have wanted to sing something got their chance, and no judgements were made as to any one's choices. A talent contest doesn't have to be so PC that the range of songs is limited--at 8 years old, the child would hardly have known the difference.

On the other hand, if the mother of that child was actually behind the whole thing, then the teachers at the school should have taken her aside or discussed the proper selection of tunes long before it became an issue. Then the who brouhaha would never have developed, and everyone would have been satisfied with the outcome.

[Maat]

161. The Amendment not only mandated the Free Exercise of Religion,

it also mandated the separation between church and state (check out the Establishment Clause).

It's a Fundie myth, in my humble opinion, that the aim of the Amendment was only to protect the free exercise of faith - that that was the priority; it was equally important to the founding fathers to form a SECULAR governement.

The school sponsoring this is what would probably be a constitutional violation, and, most certainly, the school can preclude the child from singing the song in the interests of the separation of church and state. That's what we are talking about here - a legal issue.

[progressivebydesign]

167. Read the lyrics.. they're not terribly appropriate for an 8 year old.

Regardless of the religious slant. It's a song about Sodom and God kicking people's ass and coming after them. The school is suffering because they felt the song was over the top. While I totally understand and agree with your post, we sung carols too, I think it's the song itself that is wrong. A second grader threatening people that God will smite them is pretty heavy.

After the show.. "daddy what is SODDOM?". Explain that to your second grader.

I just see this as more of the same by a group of people that have annointed themselves martyrs. They get off on the excitement and publicity of this.. and can't wait to call a lawyer because it proves to other Christians how faithful and famous they are. Seriously.. it's like an epidemic.

[Strawman]

155. Holy Shit, better call an emergency session of Congress over this!

But I must say, what a fucked up song to have a second grader sing. At that age, shouldn't they be learning stuff in cathecism like Jesus loved little animals or something and not about smoting the Sodomites.

I don't care if a religious song like this is sung by an individual student in a talent show, but it's still really creepy to me.

[Robworld]

158. Why do people focus on such irrelevant BS

Don't these people have any real problems in life
This country has people starving, barely any health care, poor education, multiples wars with the looming threat of even more, possible return of the draft, termination of Social Security and other welfare programs, terrorist attacks, economic collapse, etc etc

But no these schmucks are concerned that their children can sing about God in there elementary school.

I guess my priorities are screwed up.

http://www.dumdumgoestothecircus.com

[progressivebydesign]

165. We had to sit through a load of Jesus songs at a public school.

I guess the choir teachers feel that if they throw in a song about Kwanza they can do 10 religious Christian songs.

I am tired of religious Christians trying to shove their religion down everyone's throats at school. Why don't you see other religions doing the same? Would the yahoos at the school my daughter attended sit still for a song about Islam? Athiesm?

Parent's are trying to push the issue because they feel like some sort of martyred victims of religious discrimination. They aren't.. we're just all tired of being preached at and evangelized.

At a talent show? Hmmm... as long as they allowed any other religious songs. But FRANKLY.. WHY do they have to do a religious song? Why are they trying to evangelize everyone? Can't they go to a christian school rather than annoy us heathens?

[0rganism]

170. They're going to win, too; school was out of bounds on this one

For the school to restrict students' individual religious expression during talent contests is a clear case of excessive entanglement; the Lemmon test would kick in on any such prohibition.

School administrators need to be much more careful about which battles they choose to fight. It's not like the public schools have adequate funding as it is, and now some fundie dipshit is going to land half a million for not getting to sing a really stupid song.

On the bright side, she'll probably be going to a parochial school after this plays out, either way.

[wolvesslasher]

171. More Marilyn Manson Songs Please!!!

Funny kids can sing Marilyn Manson songs in school talent contests and no one gets offended by Antichrist songs. Happy songs or Angry songs?
For some reason happy songs seem to be more offensive.
Songs aren't offensive as long as the song says there is no God.
But if the song mentions anything good about God all of a sudden its offensive.
What about the people who don't want to hear about guys sleeping around with a bunch of Ho's? That seems more offensive than someone singing about a being that loves everyone.
But kids are allowed to sing hateful lyrics.
I fear for our hate filled future.