Phoenix Diocese bans politicians who support abortion, gay rights

[VegasWolf]

<snip>
advertisement

PHOENIX - Politicians who support issues like abortion and gay rights have been banned from speaking at Catholic churches in the Phoenix Diocese.
So far, Democratic Gov. Janet Napolitano has been the only one affected by the edict from Phoenix Bishop Thomas J. Olmsted.

Napolitano was forbidden to speak last year at a Catholic church in Scottsdale at an event opposing Proposition 200, a ballot measure that restricted the rights of undocumented immigrants. The event was moved to another site.

In a letter to pastors in December, Olmsted said churches may not invite to speak any politician or other public figure who disagrees with basic church teachings on abortion, gay marriage or other issues.

An invitation "would provide them with a platform which would suggest support for their actions," Olmsted wrote.
<snip>

http://www.tucsoncitizen.com/breaking/080505az2.php

How nice, let's control access to "our" people so that they
don't need to hear about those radical left wing ideas.

[ChairmanAgnostic]

1. what if a pol has a stance against child abuse by priest/

Will they also be barred because of their taking a position contrary to church actions?

[readmylips]

10. People in glass houses....

Why is Bishop Thomas, a murderer, still living in diocese quarters and getting full pay. Same with Monsignor Dale. Dale walked into a priest having sex with a young child and instead of stopping it, he shut the door and wanted nothing to do with the incident. But, he advised the Bishop to send the pedophile priest to another church. I think Mr. Dale will be going to jail. My church always invited republicans to speak and too bad for those who complaint.

[Zhade]

27. "Why is Bishop Thomas, a murderer..."

Can you expand on this? I've never heard about it!

[City Lights]

38. Here you go:

O'Brien convicted in hit-and-run trial
Joseph A. Reaves
The Arizona Republic
Feb. 18, 2004 12:00 AM

The worst may yet be ahead for Bishop Thomas J. O'Brien.

The longtime spiritual leader of the Roman Catholic Diocese of Phoenix sat stunned Tuesday after a jury of five women and three men found him guilty of leaving the scene of a fatal hit-and-run accident that claimed the life of pedestrian Jim L. Reed last June.

O'Brien, 68, became the highest-ranking Roman Catholic leader in the nation to stand trial on felony charges and be convicted. He can be sentenced to anywhere from probation to 45 months in prison, pending a series of presentence procedures that will focus on the bishop's role in a series of other events, including the cover-up of a decades-long sex-abuse scandal.

"Our prayers continue to be with Bishop O'Brien and his family," said O'Brien's successor, Bishop Thomas J. Olmsted. "He is our brother in Christ, and we shall continue to be one with him in prayer as we await his sentencing. Our prayers are also with the Reed family."

http://www.azcentral.com/specials/special17/articles/0218obrien-verdict.html

[Zhade]

40. Ooooooh yeah! Now I remember that.

Thanks for the info.

[City Lights]

46. You're welcome.

Their selective outrage galls me.

[Orion The Hunter]

74. So, let me get this straight...

You can kill someone and its ok to speak at a church, but only supporting a particular position, and having your own point of view aside from what the Catholic church tells, you gets you the boot...? Yeah, and the Catholic church wonders why people here in the States are staying away from churches in droves....

[City Lights]

76. Sounds about right...

The Catholic church suffers from selective outrage, IMHO. Reading through this thread, there are lots of politicians out there who disagree with the official positions of the church, but the only people that must toe the line are pro-choice, pro-gay-rights Democrats.

The Bishop O'Brien story outraged me beyond belief. A man lay dying in the street after being hit by O'Brien, and this "moral man of God" sped off into the night claiming he thought he hit an animal, maybe a dog or cat. :puke:

[Ambrose]

89. The church has always had a thing for violence. nt

[cubschicago]

133. Actually.....

No, the Catholic Church of Phoenix doesn't allow politicians of any stripe to speak at their churches unless they represent all of the Catholic views. I might suggest you read the article more. You'll be amazed at what you find out.

[cubschicago]

58. What a surprise! The Bishop was raised in Kansas!

http://www.diocesephoenix.org/bishop/olmstedBiography.htm

[cubschicago]

60. Here's contact info for the Bishop:

http://www.diocesephoenix.org/dioceseInfo/contactInfo.htm

[Rich Hunt]

105. yeah, it's no surprise

Certain parts of the church were "Protestantized", or "handled", if you prefer the more "polite" and corporate terminology.

These threads are like clockwork.

[Rich Hunt]

104. that's a great idea

What if someone has a stance against libel, pathological lying and witch hunts?

[cubschicago]

153. Then they would be allowed to speak....

The church is against those things. The Church has updated itself. Perhaps you should update your knowledge about the Church. When I first read this POST, I was like BULLSHIT, but then when I actually read the ARTICLE, I learned something new. It sucks getting only half of the story.

[Trillo]

2. Isn't it interesting how the Faith-Based Initiative has worked out?

Government gives Church Corporatists tax payer money for charity.

Churches respond by banning "some" politicians they do not approve of.

[noahmijo]

3. How about politicians who have committed infidelity?

or better yet agreed with and took part in ordering wars that caused thousands of children to die from daisy cutters? no?

oh right we only care about the lil babies when they're microscopic cells.

[meow2u3]

71. And politicians divorced and remarried?

And Republicans who support abortion and gay rights?

[Jeff In Milwaukee]

94. And don't get me started...

...on those infidels who eat shellfish and work on the Sabbath.

[livinginphotographs]

99. Or support the death penalty.

[ThoughtCriminal]

4. To say the Phoenix Diocese is ethically challenged

is an extreme understatement.

[Old and In the Way]

5. Institutional Marriage of Republicans and Religion is complete.

One washes the other's back. How....hypocritical.

[cubschicago]

143. Republicans are banned by this too

If they disagree with the Church on anything. Did I miss something in the article? I think you might want to read the whole thing.

[AlamoDemoc]

6. Hypocrats spreadin' hypocracy

[tomg]

7. And that is why we finally quit

the Church. Actually, we were in Church one Sunday, the priest ripped into gay rights, and on the way home, my then eleven year old said "Dad, we need to tell Father...that we think gay people should have rights." After years ( my current wife of 18 years and I are both divorced Catholics) of this and related nonsense, it took our 11 year olds common sense to put it in perspective.

I can't tell you how many liberal Catholics I know who have just bailed on the Church in the last few years.

[me b zola]

24. >>raises hand to be counted

I am one of the many. I cannot bring myself to attend Mass, it would feel as though I am condoning their abuse of children and their new doctrine of hatred.

[Zhade]

35. Your kids ROCK.

You're obviously raising them right!

[tomg]

37. Thanks. He is pretty cool. nt

[cubschicago]

131. While I agree with you...

That some parts of the Church have become more conservative, this is actually a good step for the Church. This is a good separation of Church and State. If you read on in the article, you will see that. The first four paragraphs are sensationalist journalism. Pretty much all politicians are banned if they disagree with the Church on anything. I think this is a move that all churches should adopt.

[fishwax]

163. I'm not sure I entirely see it that way

It would make more sense as a separation of church and state if they simply didn't have speakers on political issues, but that's not what they're saying. They're preventing (in the given instance) someone who differs from church teaching on abortion from speaking about an entirely unrelated issue involving immigration. A politician who agreed on abortion, gay marriage, and other "basic church teachings" could still give a political speech about prop 200.

Clearly, more democratic politicians than republicans will publicly disagree with church teachings on abortion and gay marriage, so there will presumably be more democrats than republicans restricted from said venues. Of course, since the article doesn't identify the "other issues" covered under "basic church teachings" in the bishop's letter, we don't really know if a republican who opposed choice and opposed gay marriage but supported capitol punishment would be banned. Pat Buchanan and Donald Rumsfeld allowed but John Kerry banned? It's certainly not a stretch.

[HockeyMom]

8. Let's see if they will un-invite RUDY

Divorced, Remarried (2 times), Pro Choice, Pro Gay Marriage.

[cubschicago]

150. Yeah, they wouldn't let him speak

in Phoenix.

[City Lights]

9. What about bishops that kill a man during a hit and run?

Are they banned too?

[Not Me]

15. You forgot *drunk* bishops

[City Lights]

16. I also forgot politicians who support the killing in Iraq.

:spank:

[Ambrose]

90. Catholics embrace drunkeness...

it was in my "how to be married to a catholic" I was given before I got married.

[Name removed]

30. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[BoneDaddy]

11. Hypocrisy

Until the Church stops protecting pedophile priests and jailing them, they have no right to speak about morals.

[Name removed]

31. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Bridget Burke]

122. The Church can't jail pedophile priests.

It hasn't had prisons for several centuries.

There's no excuse for their behavior. But too many parents were embarrassed to complain to the civil authorities. And too eager to accept hush money.

[gratuitous]

12. Let them increase their irrelevance and marginalization

Some Catholic dioceses are falling into the same trap that their pals in the GOP have entangled themselves, which is that of appealing to the worst and narrowest impulses of their base. In 20 years, probably sooner, we are going to hear a bunch of meaningless apologies from these bigots about what they thought they were doing, and trying to get back into decent society.

They'll be readmitted, of course, because that's what decent society does. But I hope that they have to do a little groveling first.

[Maven]

14. Right.

They'll be readmitted, and then they'll find new ways to discriminate, and new groups to "moralize" about, and the cycle will continue.

:eyes:

[BoneDaddy]

62. hmm

There is a great story of Ghandi where a woman brings her 6 year old child to him... Her boy will not stop eating sugar so she asks Ghandi to tell him to stop eating sweets. Ghandi tells her to come back in two weeks. Two weeks later she returns and Ghandi promptly tells the boy to stop eating sweets. The woman asks why Ghandi simply tell the boy that two weeks ago.

Ghandi replied "because two weeks ago, I was eating sweets"

My point was not that the church or anyone can't have an opinion, but rather they need to clean up their own act before they can criticize others.

In Jesus' own words (paraphrased). Take the "beam" out of your own eye first before you go after the mote in your brothers eye.

They can have an opinion, but it really doesn't carry much weight when buggering priests are protected from prosecution.

[davidinalameda]

13. how about the death penalty

how about the war in Iraq

how about those who vote against programs that help the most helpless in our society

[Douglas Carpenter]

17. I was thinking the same thing--and also the war in Iraq

http://www.iwtnews.com/

[whirlygigspin]

18. from the folk who brought you Papa Ratzi the Nazi

The Church that hides child molesters and is now run by a former hitler youth, speaking frankly, has nothing to teach the rest of us.

Blow it out your ass Cardinal.

[Rich Hunt]

107. yeah, that's right

They don't have anything to say about understanding, listening to one's enemies, suspending judgment until all of the facts are in, forgiveness, love, mercy.

They don't have anything to say about that.

:eyes:

Of course, if some people weren't such arrogant, spoiled, social-climbing parrots, they would get to know some actual Catholics instead of spouting east coast media fabrications and learn some actual history.

It's far too easier on one's portfolio to spout prejudice against the Irish...ooops, I mean the "Catholics".

C'mon...how many more Catholic threads (replete with Nazi horrors, pedophiles, etc.) are we going to post today, all because some Irish American offended you?

It's a little predictable, no?

Don't like what I'm saying? Then don't flood the board with your lies and predictable threads.

[cubschicago]

148. Yeah, they would be banned too

Read the whole article

[fishwax]

164. Those issues aren't covered in the article (n/t)

[mr mister]

19. What about running people over and then driving away?

What's their stance on that?

Or putting pedophiles in minority parishes because they are less likely to speak up?

[PurityOfEssence]

20. But death penalty supporters are just fine

Let's also mention social programs: those who are against any "giveaways" to the downtrodden are just fine, right?

The Roman Empire never died; it's the Catholic Church.

[Zhade]

21. Gee, there's a surprise, more homophobia from the RCC!

Why, next thing you'll say is that the current pope aided in covering up child rape!

Oh, wait, HE DID.

[DemBones DemBones]

42. Another post not grounded in reality. nt

[TankLV]

64. Really? What part of it is wrong. Please demonstrate.

The NAZI pope condones pedophile priests - they have sanctuary in HIS Vatican - against the wishes and out of the reach of law enforcement and justice and PUNISHMENT - which THEY profess to be big on.

[Rich Hunt]

108. prove it

Prove it all.

I demand the proof.

Let's see it. Or is this what the "Orangey" corporate handlers back east tell you to say?

How many times are we going to see this predictable pattern on DU?

You see, obsessives reveal themselves by what they work so hard to bury.

[DanCa]

22. When I voted for Gore In 2000 in IL The RCIA did the same thing to me

For not taking pictures of women entering abortion clinics. I was so distraught by this I had a stroke and could not speak for three days. My neuro thinks this is how I contacted young onset parkinsons nice huh?

[kbm8795]

23. Perhaps people should protest outside the Church

and demand that politicians who ENTER the church are pedophile supporters.

That might shut their nonsense down for awhile.

[Rich Hunt]

109. a fantastic idea!

Then maybe we can get a look at their Orangey lying little faces!

Of course they wouldn't do this because guilty liars like to hide.

[DesEtoiles]

25. but they welcome little boys

[cap]

26. when the church applies this standard to Democrats only

and ignores prominent pro-choice Republicans, it is time to take away the Church's tax exemptions. I am Catholic and it's time to teach the hierarchy not to meddle in politics.

[The Magistrate]

28. The Time Has Come, Mr. Wolf, To Tax This Diocese

It is clearly engaged in political rather than religious activities....

[arwalden]

162. Yes. Yes. Yes-yes-YES!!

[baldguy]

169. TAX THEM! TAX THEM!

And if the American Council of Catholic Bishops does not repudiate them - tax all the Catholic Church in America.

[mom cat]

29. Can these same churches invite pro-war, anti-poor politicians!

Hypocrites! All of them!

[LeftyDarthBrodie]

32. Take away the tax exemption

and then let them do this all day.

[cubschicago]

144. Take away the tax exemption for honoring the separation of Church and Stat

:shurg:

[daleo]

33. When voters elect a Catholic politician

Should he put the voters' interests first, or the Church's?

The Church could be shooting itself in the foot with this reasoning.

[TankLV]

65. I will never elect catholic politician. NEVER.

They have been told and proven that their first loyalty is to their conscience and the church. That is commendable for them, but doesn't belong in MY congress.

I will never support or vote for a catholic politician until the church changes it's hypocritical and bigoted and hateful ways.

[Bridget Burke]

96. So you didn't vote for John Kerry?

He's Catholic.

I don't agree with the actions of the Diocese, but this story gives those who were taught to hate the Church by their parents an excuse to vent their spleen.

[Name removed]

110. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[DemBones DemBones]

34. I think the governor has plenty of access to people,

Catholics and nonCatholics, through the media.

The bishop is merely saying that the governor and other politicians who support abortion or otherwise go against Catholic teachings can't speak in Catholic churches.

Black churches are unlikely to allow pro-slavery or pro-segregation speakers; synagogues are unlikely to allow speakers who think Dr. Mengele had neat ideas.
Why should Catholic churches allow speakers who oppose Catholic teachings?

[LiviaOlivia]

36. Another rationalization

from you for everything/anything concerning the RC church. Wow!

Can you provide links to support your argument concerning the Az. state gov?

And why are you posting here?

[DemBones DemBones]

41. "Why are you posting here?" Well, I'm a longtime member of DU

and this is LBN, not a private forum for Catholic-bashers. In other words, why shouldn't I post here and who gave you the authority to question me?

[LiviaOlivia]

44. I also am a long time poster and donate to DU.

So it is ok that you question me? But you, like the Bush adminsitration, dodges and doesn't have to answer questions?

When the RC church made it's pronouncement concerning John Kerry's faith they entered poltics. That makes it open season my friend. And if they receive taxpayer money via Bush the church entered politics. Let's not talk about exsisting religious organization's tax exemptions.

I will fight to the death for freedom of religion and an open government. I oppose secretive groups..(Yes, I oppose Opus Dei-it's a secretive association which you have defended here at DU.)
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=104&topic_id=4197358&mesg_id=4199636

I will fight for open government and seperation of religion and state. I will always fight for it.

Finally my relationshionship with my God is not your business. Keep your priests out of mine.

[DemBones DemBones]

47. I don't know what your problem is. I posted a reply

to the OP and now you're angry with me, apparently because I exist and don't think just like you, and you are bringing in all sorts of ancillary issues that are not related to this thread. Why not stay on topic?

The bishop of Phoenix has made a rule that people who oppose Catholic teachings will not be allowed to speak in Catholic churches. He's denying them a platform that is his to deny. Where's the problem?

Does Planned Parenthood allow pro-life speakers to use their buildings to speak against abortion?

[LiviaOlivia]

48. Your posts speak for you.

I disagree with you on every post you've made that I've read.


It's my right. Get over it.

[DemBones DemBones]

52. I should hope so. They are meant to speak for me.

Again, I don't know what your problem is. I don't remember ever seeing you at DU before this thread but you certainly have built up animosity toward me as well as towards my religion. I will continue to defend my faith when it is attacked so perhaps you had best avoid reading my posts.

[Name removed]

55. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Occulus]

72. I'm gay and I find your continued defense of the church very offensive

After reading what you just wrote, you seem to me to have no problem with an organization which holds the spiritual guidance for vast numbers of people in its collective hands demonizing me and people like me. Further, your defense is actually that it's *your religion*.

Unbelieveable. Your statements are part and parcel of the reasons why I don't go to church at all: I am then not free to question the religion's teachings. Like so many of the braindead people out there who worship *, you too seem to think that because an 'authority' figure to you said something, that automatically makes it true. It's as true for churchgoers as it is for politics, and both groups fail to realize it is the ideas which should be worshipped and followed, and not necessarily the people pushing them.

I'm sick of standing meekly quiet while so-called "gay friendly" members of all churches' religions turn a blind eye and in some cases (such as with yourself) actually defend the priests or whomever and their actions. Yes, it's your religion, doing this to me and people like me, and dammitall, but I. Have. Had. ENOUGH.

Who do you and yours think you are to be swaying public opinion against me from the pulpits? Who do you think you are defending actions that will, I assure you, end in more people like me getting beaten and killed? Who the you think you are for supporting an organization supposedly founded to further the teachings and faith of Jesus (yeah, who is he, again?) which is actually driving people away from Him?

How do you expect us to respond to the hypocritical filth your religion spews at us? Do you think we'll just take it, silently? Do you think we'll not condemn and denigrate the people who spew it and those who defend them? Do you think you have permission to do so- just because it happens to be a "religious" point of view?

Let me tell you something, and believe its truth the way you believe the sun comes up in the morning: there is nothing "religious" or "faithful" or "moral" or (and perhaps especially) "Christlike" about denigrating and excluding other people based solely upon religious teachings. It's not a legitimate point of view. It directly and indirectly harms others people; Falwell, Dobson, et al are just as guilty of murder as if they had actually beaten or killed a homosexual themselves.

When people start using their religion, and in some cases not even a religion they themselves actively worship, to justify beating and killing others, there is something seriously wrong with the interpretation of their religion. Your defense of the actions made my the church in this case are quite simply inexcusable. In other words, while you didn't have it before this, you just earned my ire.

Just for the record, no Catholic on this board who supports the Church in this or anything else which directly denigrates my very status as a human being and an American citizen will ever get a pass from me again. The views you hold to in your posts regarding this issue are officially, because of you and your defense, something I am going to work to either change or wipe away for good.

Confuckingradulations.

[Puglover]

73. Unbelievably eloquent and hearfelt post!

I'm waiting for the defenders of the church to respond, but I hear are the crickets.

[Occulus]

77. Thanks, same here... silence, for the most part. n/t

[DemBones DemBones]

79. Go back and read what I wrote again because

you're making a lot of assumptions about me without justification.

Nowhere did I "justify beating and killing others." That would be completely against my beliefs.

All I have done in this thread is to support the right of any bishop to decide who can and who cannot speak in a church in his diocese. I think it's a reasonable assumption that you would not like to see a speaker like Fred Phelps tolerated in a Catholic church or any other venue. Neither would Catholics, especially if they truly know what their Church teaches. You would be unlikely to hear anything from a Catholic pulpit that would offend you, by the way, unless you're offended by being told to love others, including your enemies.

You seem to believe that the Roman Catholic Church is anti-gay but in fact our Catechism says you are children of God and to be treated with respect. The updated 1994 Catechism was prepared under the direction of Cardinal Ratzinger, who is now Pope Benedict XVI, and approved by Pope John Paul II, so if either of them hadn't wanted that section in the Catechism, it wouldn't be there.

The Roman Catholic Church does not allow same sex marriage but it's hardly alone in that. Are you as angry with all other churches and other religions that maintain marriage is a union between one man and one woman? The US government is the major obstacle to same sex marriage right now, anyway, as you must know. You would find support for same sex marriage in Catholic parishes, despite the Church policy. Contrary to popular belief, we Catholics often differ with our leaders, but most of us take the long view, that change is slow.

The Catholic Church defends the rights of all to live, to work and provide for themselves and their families, if they have families. For those reasons, it supports labor unions, government-mandated minimum wages and decent working conditions, etc. The Catholic Church defends the right of all to have homes, to receive medical care, to be educated, etc. The Church feeds the hungry, gives shelter to the homeless, and cares for the sick, including AIDS patients, many of whom are gay. And it does those things for anyone in need, not just for Catholics.

If you visit a typical Catholic church, you will find yourself in a group that includes people of different races, interracial families, and, yes, gay and lesbian couples. As James Joyce wrote of the Catholic Church, "Here Comes Everybody." Everybody really is welcome in a Catholic church. Everyone has a right to be there.

[really annoyed]

82. Bravo!

Unfortunately, some people will never learn because of "religion."

Using "religion" to spread ignorance and hate IS STILL ignorance and hate, PERIOD.

[really annoyed]

83. But continue attacking us!

Does "defending your faith" involve bashing homosexuals and pro-choicers at any chance you get?

I don't find your "faith" very friendly, and I definitely don't find you to be very friendly either. Sadly, I don't think I can continue to read your posts, because all of them are so hateful I can't see straight....

[DemBones DemBones]

87. Show me where I ever bashed homosexuals or

pro-choicers. You will find that I disagree with pro-choicers about abortion but I don't bash them, nor do I bash women who've had abortions.

A lot of people at DU lately seem not to understand that a discussion forum means people can express different opinions. If we were all in total agreement on every issue, every thread would just be a series of replies consisting of "Ditto" and variations on "Ditto." In other words, we'd be right-wing Republicans.

[Rich Hunt]

115. Hey, DemBones...

Don't you know that by being a Catholic, you're supporting all sorts of bashing and genocide?

What is a nasty Nazi doing here on this board.

No, I'm not using the "sarcasm" icon - that's their nasty little threatening code. They like blood a whole lot. Creeping people out, gaslighting, and projecting blame (not to mention wetting their pants in public like a little baby) is their game.

They're making it very clear that some very powerful (or at least social-climbing) parties do not want any "Catholics" in the "party of tolerance".

Go ahead, Orangies - there goes centuries of ministering to the poor, standing up for peace and stressing forgiveness and conscience over acting like a gaslighting, blacklisting hysterical harpy.

[AngryOldDem]

93. Answer the question

Why should the Catholic Church allow itself to be used as a forum for those who do not support Catholic teaching?

[Bridget Burke]

101. Why don't we allow self-described Freepers to post at DU?

Shouldn't we allow them a forum?

I don't think so.

[AngryOldDem]

102. I'd like to hear an answer to your question as well...

...a "yes" or "no" will suffice, because the question IS that simple. No need to baffle it with bullshit about political involvement, hate toward gays, or any number of other sidecar issues (read: personal attacks) that I've seen raised here.

So...anyone care to answer? Anyone? Hello?

[VegasWolf]

172. I'll take a stab! Actually, I would like to hear other points. I think

that the main reason FReepers are not allowed here is precisely
because of flame wars. If that could be controlled then it would be
fun to play with them!

[cubschicago]

135. Perhaps you should read the article

It's a great link that shows that the Catholic Church of Phoenix is doing something many DUers would like to see happen across the U.S.: the separation of Church and State. It's not a ban against pro-choice people, it's a ban against all politicians who disagree with the Church on anything. That excludes almost all of them. If a Republican wanted to speak and they supported the war, death penalty, etc., they would be barred too.

[Doremus]

51. Don't know of any politicians that are pro-slavery or pro-Holocaust --

at least publicly -- do you?

How handy for your argument.


This announcement is blatantly political and the underlying message it contains -- no sinners allowed -- is not only hateful and arrogant, but the antithesis of a church's reason to exist.

[DemBones DemBones]

53. Ever heard of a hypothetical example?

Though I was thinking not of politicians only but of people in general who hold beliefs that would be offensive to blacks or Jews, since politicians are not the only people who engage in public speaking.


But here's an example that's less hypothetical:

Planned Parenthood owns buildings. Would they allow a politician who opposes abortion to speak in their buildings? Should they be expected to do so? If not, then why should the Catholic Church be expected to give a forum to politicians who support abortion?

[Doremus]

61. Planned Parenthood doesn't profess to be spreading God's love.

When a church excludes those they consider sinners, it has ceased being a church. It has become an exclusionary private club for the self-righteous.

Nothing wrong with private clubs, but let's not pretend they have anything to do with Christ shall we? He didn't shun sinners, he loved them.

That's the problem with politics in church. With all the hate talk, Christ can't get a word in edgewise.

[DemBones DemBones]

80. The church isn't excluding sinners, it's refusing to give a platform to

those who might advocate sin from that platform. There's a huge difference. Anyone can attend church services, the bishop is only restricting who can and who cannot speak.

Jesus was indeed compassionate and loved sinners but He also told those who had sinned to "Go and sin no more."

Jesus did NOT practice an "anything goes" morality and the God of the Old Testament never showed any fondness for it, either.

[really annoyed]

81. Oh Geez

In others words, you are saying that all homosexuals hold an "anything goes" morality?

Why do you always think you have a right to shove your Catholicism on everybody here?

Every single post of yours is of that similar nature.

Just because "your" religion practices an intolerant and hateful "platform" doesn't mean I don't have a right to criticize it. "Your" religion isn't the religion of the Democratic party or of America.

I'm an agnostic - I don't care for your religion and I don't need your interpretation of The Bible. Our laws don't need it either.

And don't give me that "love of God" BS. You admit yourself that your religion is not that type. This is why we have separation of church and state - because of people like you. Your base your beliefs on people on a man-made religion - how foolish. Try using your own mind instead of letting your church do it for you.

I think you need to lay off and leave people alone. If you want to be a faithful follower of the hateful church on your own time, go for it. That is your right. Do you believe liberal Catholics that vote for legal abortion and gays rights should be kicked out of your church too?

And you wonder why so many people are anti-Catholic....

PS - I find it funny that the Catholic church only sticks its nose in "immoral" issues that happen to be conservative issues too. I also find it funny that you think your have a right to bash people over the head with your religion, but we're "anti-Catholic" if we call you out on it.

I don't find you very liberal at all.

[Doremus]

86. That's okay, RA. DemBones did us a favor.

He and the Phoenix diocese (and many others) are a vivid demonstration of the sort of judgmental, hate-filled people that occupy church pews.

By no means *all*, thank God, but each time one of THEM speaks, those listening know which pseudo-churches to avoid. They and their kind are welcome to spew their caustic dogma on each other. We will be spending our time in an atmosphere of inclusion, acceptance and love, just as the creator intended.

THANKS DEMBONES!! Enjoy yourself. (Bring disinfectant.)

[DemBones DemBones]

91. I'm really feeling the inclusion, acceptance and love in your post.

ONE MORE TIME: *any* group that owns a building has the right to say who can and who can't speak in said building. Since all groups have some sort of commonality of belief, they typically prohibit speakers who oppose their belief, whatever it may be.

There are no doubt thousands of examples of this but let a Catholic bishop declare that speakers who oppose the Catholic Church's teachings will not be allowed to use Catholic churches in his diocese as platforms and DUers scream about how evil Catholics are.

Democrats bend over backwards respecting Muslims and Jews but have no qualms about bashing Christians, particularly Catholics. We Catholics are sick and tired of . And we're leaving the Democratic Party because of it. So are other Christians.

Good luck trying to win elections without Catholics.

[Zhade]

165. "Good luck trying to win elections without Catholics."

Good luck making us care about losing Catholics like you who support bigotry and homophobia from the Catholic church.

SEEya!

[DemBones DemBones]

88. Just FYI. . . I never said or even implied

"that all homosexuals hold an "anything goes" morality." You inferred it because you think you can read my mind. You can't, and apparently you have difficulty reading my posts as well since you consistently misinterpret what I say.

If you could get DUers to stop bashing Catholics at every opportunity, it would never be necessary for me to defend my faith. But as long as there is bashing, I have every right to argue the Catholic viewpoint.

[msongs]

84. jesus said divorce = adultery, are divorced people allowed to

talk in this church?

Msongs
www.msongs.com/political-shirts.htm

PS - would you leave your children alone with a catholic priest?

[Zhade]

98. So gay rights are a "sin" to you?

A woman being able to control her own body is "sinful"?

Wow.

[anotherdrew]

70. true, why should pols speak at churches if we want politics out of church

[Zhade]

97. Are you equating equal rights and a woman's right to choose...

...with slavery, segregation, and Nazi ideas?

Unbelievable, but not surprising.

[niallmac]

39. Phoenix Diocese: LOVE LOVE LOVE!! Not.

[cubschicago]

140. Why does the Church not have love

if they support the separation between Church and State? I'm a little confused about that one...

[Massacure]

43. Slap a 50% tax on all catholic churches in Arizona.

That'll show them.

[Name removed]

45. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[NuttyFluffers]

57. :D forgot the sarcasm tag there. it's a useful smilie

:evilgrin:

:sarcasm: see! very fun. check the smilies lookup table in Message Options in sending replies and messages.

O8)

unless you were serious... but then that'd be self-explanatory. church crossed the boundary into state affairs and should get hammered until they go back into their place. taxes are a delightful hammer. :evilgrin:

[TankLV]

66. Exactly! Slap a tax on these political organizations that continue to

masquerade as religious institutions.

THEY have broken the law of "separtion". Therefore, they do NOT deserve to avoid paying taxes.

TAX THEM as the political organiztion they are.

[Rich Hunt]

116. that's unconstitutional

You like the constitution don't you?

Is there anything about America you DO like?

[lastliberalintexas]

124. Not it isn't

The current version of the US Tax Code is what allows any non-profit to remain tax free, not the Constitution.

But then what do I know? Currently I'm not religious at all and I had the misfortune to be raised an "Orangey", so perhaps I'm not one to be trusted. :)

[TankLV]

132. What the fuck are you talking about?

I do not support using taxpayer subsidies to support the politicing of religious organizations - taking away their tax exemptions would be ENFORCING the constitution!

Do you even have a first grade education?

I have never read such utter bullshit and lies from ANY poster on DU as you.

And what the hell is all this "organie" crap?

[Zhade]

166. "Is there anything about America you DO like?"

"Why do you hate freedom?"

[Puglover]

69. That's the smartest post

yet. The SECOND the self righteous thugs in the hierarchy of the RCC started sticking their noses into the politics of this country they should have lost their tax exempt status.
LOL...I saw the title of this post and knew I'd see DBDB defending the dogmatic crap of the RCC.

[cubschicago]

149. This is a move taking their noses out of Politics in this country

Read the whole article

[cubschicago]

145. Show them to get rid of the separation of Church and State?

Why would you want to do that? They are honoring the separation of Church and State here. Did you read the article?

[Endangered Specie]

49. I'm guessing mass murder and child fondling are still on the table?

:sarcasm:

[Rich Hunt]

112. I guess so

Yeah, mass murder and child fondling are still on the table....for those nasty slanderers who like to hide behind a bunch of increasingly transparent codespeak and projection.

The cardinal rule with these people is PROJECTION:

The serial bully:

is a convincing, practised liar ... is vile, vicious and vindictive in private, but innocent and charming in front of witnesses; no-one can (or wants to) believe this individual has a vindictive nature

Check.



holds deep prejudices (eg against the opposite gender, people of a different sexual orientation, other cultures and religious beliefs, foreigners, etc - prejudiced people are unvaryingly unimaginative) but goes to great lengths to keep this prejudicial aspect of their personality secret

Check.


is a control freak and has a compulsive need to control everyone and everything you say, do, think and believe; for example, will launch an immediate personal attack attempting to restrict what you are permitted to say if you start talking knowledgeably about psychopathic personality or antisocial personality disorder in their presence - but aggressively maintains the right to talk (usually unknowledgeably) about anything they choose; serial bullies despise anyone who enables others to see through their deception and their mask of sanity

Check. Hence the obsession with "Catholics".

displays a compulsive need to criticise whilst simultaneously refusing to value, praise and acknowledge others, their achievements, or their existence

Check.

shows a lack of joined-up thinking with conversation that doesn't flow and arguments that don't hold water

Oh, you mean they're hysterical and not logical? They spout the spoonfed prejudice that their bosses give them instead of asking questions and investigating the facts? Well check, honey.


is evasive and has a Houdini-like ability to escape accountability


Oh, hell yeah. I don't see the Catholic church escaping accountability. By focusing on the problems in the Catholic church, people are attempting to attract attention away from the REAL guilty parties.

undermines and destroys anyone who the bully perceives to be an adversary, a potential threat, or who can see through the bully's mask

Just ask one of their victims. If they're still able to speak.

is adept at creating conflict between those who would otherwise collate incriminating information about them

Yes, this is called "provocateurism". Some people on DU display no familiarity with this tactic and its uses throughout history. We're in the information age now. We have the internet. Why are we still playing dumb and acting afraid?


Projection

Bullies project their inadequacies, shortcomings, behaviours etc on to other people to avoid facing up to their inadequacy and doing something about it (learning about oneself can be painful), and to distract and divert attention away from themselves and their inadequacies. Projection is achieved through blame, criticism and allegation; once you realise this, every criticism, allegation etc that the bully makes about their target is actually an admission or revelation about themselves.

I'll keep posting this "projection" business until the projectors stop projecting and admit all of the crimes that they are guilty of or have knowledge of.

Don't you think the Catholic flooding is a little obvious and hysterical?

That link is:

http://www.bullyonline.org/workbully/serial.htm

Sounds like some of the more pathological (read: guilty) sectors of corporate America, if you ask me.

Provocateurism, invading boards to sow dissention and drive people away....that's what is really going on here, people.

And no, I ain't a "member" of the Catholic church.

[mohinoaklawnillinois]

50. This is the reason that I no longer attend Mass

or partake of any of the sacraments.

Until the American Catholic Church stops sticking its nose into American politics they will not get any support in any way from myself or my husband.

The Catholic Church in the US seems to think they can pick and choose their battles, but until they ban the likes of so-called Catholics like Rick Santorum, Sam Brownback, etc from speaking at Catholic churches and spewing their hatred for anything or anybody that disagrees with them, they've lost me.

Anyone who knows me, knows that I have no use for hypocrisy or hypocrites. Popes, Cardinals, Archbishops and Bishops that allow hatred and bigotry to be preached are nothing but hypocrites of the highest order.

[Bridget Burke]

121. Did you tell your parish priest of your beliefs?

Did you tell the Bishop? What were the specific policies of your Parish & Diocese? Speaking out as you leave might have some effect.

Or did you simply decide to sleep in on Sunday? Hey, a high-sounding excuse!

[cubschicago]

134. Actually they are taking their noises out of politics

If you read further on in the article you will see that this is a move against the melding of Church and State. I think this is a very good step that more and more dioceses should be taking.

[Zorra]

54. Oh, but politicians that lie us into war and get hundreds of thousands of

people, killed and horribly maimed, including innocent children, are just fine with the Diocese?

[cubschicago]

141. No...

Where did you see that in the article? Did I miss something? I think you might have missed the Governor's comment that this is a separation of Church and State. All politicans are basically barred from speaking. If someone that supported all of that and then wanted to speak at Church, they would be stopped, yes.

[SoCalDem]

56. Frankly, I would like to see ALL politicking stopped in churches

or to rescind their tax-free status if they DO allow it.

When churches get political, they cease to be churches, and become advocacy groups..

If church members want to get together outside of church, and start a group, fine...but the church and its minsiters should BUTT OUT !!

[cubschicago]

59. Give to Caesar what is Caesar's.....

[Raiden]

63. So much for separation of church and state

Now you have to check with your church before you take a political position. This is very scary stuff.

[TankLV]

67. No - churches are supposed to be APOLITICAL - NON political.

It's the POLITICS that should be left outside the doors of the churches.

The church has made if very clear on where they stand POLITICALLY.

THEY should be taxed or SHUT UP and return to dealing with ISSUES of faith - NOT threatening POLITICIANS who vote a certain way.

But you refuse to see this.

[Jeff In Milwaukee]

95. This is within their rights...

Even though I don't agree with it, the Arch-Deacon-Mother-Superior-Dude (hey, I'm not Catholic) said that people who publicly espouse views that differ from Catholic doctrine aren't allowed to speak in Catholic churches.

I think it's a vastly stupid idea -- even before you scratch the surface to reveal all the untenable situations that could arise -- but it's the church's property and they can allow in whoever they want.

[AngryOldDem]

103. Just so

Thank you for stating the obvious so succinctly.

Here's another example of what we're talking about. Several pastors in my diocese have banned meetings of the local chapter of the Voice of the Faithful, because they do not agree with VOTF concerning its protest of the archbishop's fund drive. Do I necessarily agree with these pastors' actions? No. But I do respect their right to be custodians of their churches, and to make decisions about who and who may not use their buildings.

The only point where I respectfully disagree with you is that it is a "stupid" idea. These politicians express views diametrically opposed to Church teaching. The Church is in no way obligated to provide them a forum for these opinions in parish buildings.

[Jeff In Milwaukee]

130. By vastly stupid...

I mean that by their logic, a Bishop could silence a large number of women in their child-bearing years (because Catholics avail themselves of contraceptives as readily as Protestants). They could also start banning anybody who speaks on behalf of untrammeled, free-market enterprise (i.e., any Republicans) because of the church's teaching on social justice. Once you start banning the voices of those with whom you disagree, you're left with lock-step dogmatism.

Now there are some on these boards that would argue that lock-step dogmatism is the sum and substance of all religious expression (particularly Catholicism), but I am not one of those. There is a rich tradition of dissent in western religion, and any attempt to silence heretics will, almost inevitably, lead to further schism. It didn't work with Galileo; it's not likely to work now.

[cubschicago]

138. No.... this is separation of Church and State

I suggest your read the entire article. Even the Governor herself said that this is a move to separate Church and State by keeping ALL politicians out of Church. I'm amazed at how many people here just took the sensational first four paragraphs and ran with it.

[anotherdrew]

68. TAX this group. Protest outside this church. Open season on them

If they want to mix their religion in with national politics, time for them to pay the price.

[cubschicago]

142. Why would you tax a Church that supports the separation of Church and Stat

That is completely backwards.

[VegasWolf]

75. Hey, let's ask Falwell and Dobson if they agree with the RCC on

this point. I'm betting yes.

[The_Casual_Observer]

78. How about child molesters? Can they still administer the "Sacraments"?

Those catholic dumb shits are playing right into the arms of rove.

[Rich Hunt]

114. a-ha

So...whole Latin American and European countries are dumbshits now.

Fantastic - thanks for playing!

[progressivebydesign]

85. Our local priest was removed for internet abuses...

.. they stressed it had nothing to do with any actual children, rather just the abuse of the internet. Sounds like a damn healthy church culture to me!

[Catfight]

92. The church is dead to me. nt

[Bridget Burke]

100. I'm sure the Pope is losing sleep about it.

With all its faults, the Church is quite alive to millions of people.

[cubschicago]

146. The church is dead because...

they are separating Church and State? :shrug:

[goforit]

106. Putting a nail in the coffinof the Roman Catholic church!!!....Ouch!!!

Tything will plummet tremendously.

[VegasWolf]

111. The Catholic Church is being closed one nail at a time! Well, it's

about 1700 years old, it has had a nice long run. Funny,
Wicca and other religions that the RCC pushed out of the
way are making a come-back. Gentle Mother Nature is winning after
a long time.

[Rich Hunt]

113. fine with me

I sure hope Calvinism and all its nasty hidden variants die with it.

But we never talk about Calvinism and how it's poisoned this country - DO WE?

[lastliberalintexas]

117. Um, yeah we do

People on this board strenuously criticize most religions, but especially the Protestant faiths (rightly so, given their standard bearers are Dobson, Falwell and the like). It's always amazing to me how the Catholics on this board get so upset when it's their religion under the microscope for a change.


And by the way- your continued references to "East Coast" and "Eastern" wouldn't be any kind of slam on the Jewish faith, would it? And "Orangey"? Nice. :eyes:

Personally, I'm not religious at all, so I have no dog in this fight. But I do find it humorous that your supposedly liberal church always focuses on abortion and gay rights, rather than talking about banning pro-war and pro-death penalty supporters. This edict was broad enough to include those mostly rightwing politicians as well, so we'll have to wait and see how this is enforced and if it is enforced across the board rather than as it sounds- a target on the backs of Dem politicians.

[Bridget Burke]

120. I just searched DU for "Calvinism"--no hits.

The "East Coast" post you refer to specifically referred to WASPs. However, they are more likely to be Episcopalian than Calvinist.

Many fine people go to churches with doctrinal links to John Calvin. But those beliefs can be twisted, as well.

Calvinism as in the Puritans. As in "The Protestant Work Ethic." As in hatred of "Papists" & other foreigners. Much of the overall hatred of all things Catholic that you see has more to do with people taught to hate in childhood than in current Church policy.

By the way, the "edict" was from one diocese.

[lastliberalintexas]

123. I'm not hating the Catholic Church

I didn't like the tone that particular poster took towards other religions, while complaining that his own religion was being attacked. Kind or ironic, don't you think?

And yes, I strecthed Calvinism to include all of Protestantism, considering his posts on this thread. He hasn't simply attacked Calvinism, but "Orangeys" and the supposed "Protestantization" of at least part of the RCC. Again, I don't understand why someone must attack another's religion in defense of their own. But then as I've already posted, I am not religious myself, so perhaps I don't know the rule book. And thankfully I wasn't taught in childhood to hate, period. :shrug:


Personally, I think that any church or diocese or temple or what have you has the right to issue this same edict- so long as it is applied regardless of political affiliation and in accordance with the provisions of IRS Code 501(c) and any other regulating non-profits. And I would hope that it would be applied to the pro-death penalty as equally as it is applied to the pro-choice. Doesn't seem like too much to hope for. :)

[0rganism]

118. People have been pounding nails in the coffin of the Church since 1517

With over 1.2 BILLION members, constituting over a sixth of the world's human population and over half of the world's Christians, it appears that however well-crafted the coffin, the Church is thus far unwilling to climb inside. No, I think you'll find that the Roman Catholic Church is alive and well, and if they have to start re-issuing indulgences to make up for lost tything revenue, then count on them to do it.

If the church heirarchy can withstand well-publicized lawsuits from scores of molested altar boys, it can withstand damn near anything.

[VegasWolf]

119. Prove that the church is growing! it is stagnating in its own putrid

filth. Only extreme right wing groups like Opus Dei have any net
growth. It's last strong hold is South America.

[cubschicago]

137. Ummm.....

Do you want people to mix Church and State together? I personally don't. That's what this move is about. All politicians are basically banned from speaking.

[onenote]

125. why limit to politicians?

What about a non-politician who doesn't agree with basic church teachings, like a Rabbi or a Muslim Imam? Why let anyone who isn't a true believer inside the door.

Sigh....

onenote

[cubschicago]

139. Because politicians have so many venues to speak at anyway

and this is classic example of following out on the separation of Church and State.

As for your comment on Rabbis and Muslims, I've actually been to a Catholic mass where a Protestant minister has given the homily. They teach a full semster of world religions at the majority of Catholic high schools.

[DFWJock]

126. Do they also ban

folks who think the earth revolves around the sun?

[maxrandb]

127. Why Stop With Politicians???

Come on bishop. If you're really "effing" serious, how's about we ban EVERYONE, including those in your congregation who support these same issues??? Why is it just politicians held up to such scorn? Could it be that there are only a handful of them, and the hit to the collection plate won't be too hard to take??

Want to see the catholic churches numbers plummet even further. Ban all those that use contraception.

I never thought I would say it about a priest, but this guy is ONE SICK FUCK!!

[CatholicEdHead]

157. That idea is already being floated around

in the far right, ultra-tradionalist laity.

http://www.cwnews.com/offtherecord/offtherecord.cfm?task=singledisplay&recnum=2773

[VegasWolf]

128. Yeah, they wouldn't let Galileo speak either. He had this strange

idea that the earth revolved around the sun!

[Bridget Burke]

152. Your preoccupation with historical wrongs diffuses your message.

The Church has made its peace with science. Evolution is even taught in Catholic schools. Creationists usually come from less-evolved branches of Protestantism.

Complain about this Bishop's statement? Sure. But bringing up ancient history was boring when Ian Paisley was a child.

[VegasWolf]

158. I appreciate your point. My point is that the church has a long and

inglorious history of being completely WRONG. Clearly the organization is not divinely inspired! My preoccupation as you put is simply my constant reiteration that the church is error prone. I
understand that the church has admitted its past mistakes and that some people would love to see those mistakes swept under the rug.

I will not let the church to hide that easily. These "historical"
wrongs aren't so historical considering the state of affairs
in American church dioceses. Part of the reason that people let themselves be exploited is that they believe that the people doing
the exploiting are somehow on the side of good. That is complete and utter nonsense.

[cubschicago]

160. There's no exploitation here

Just good old separation of Church and State.

[VegasWolf]

161. Right, priests aren't exploiting little boys. nt

[cubschicago]

167. Ummm.... did you read that in this article? n/t

[VegasWolf]

171. Jeez, you get hung up on reading the damn article don't you? I

was responding to the poster IMMEDIATELY above me. You
should really learn how to put your replies into the correct place
of the thread hierarchy you know.

I noticed that you did the same thing with
several other posters.

I understood your point about separation of church and state.
We all believe that here I hope. I don't agree with your analysis
though that the church is doing a "good thing" here. Regardless,
that is completely orthogonal to my response to the previous poster.

[KDLarsen]

129. Just curious...

.. but what would "other issues" mean? Compassion for the poor & homeless? Outrage at the continued discrimination of both gender & race that continues to exist in present-day society?

[warrens]

136. Cut all Catholics out of all state functions

You know how those state announcements and panels and stuff always have religious leaders up on the stage. Just cut them off and make it known that no Catholic leaders will get any exposure or cooperation from state authorities for anything. Fuck em.

[cubschicago]

147. Why would you do that?

If you are going to cut Catholics out, then cut all of the religions out. Based on the diocese of Phoenix's decision to separate Church and State, they might agree with you.

[Bridget Burke]

151. Tell that to Mayor Daley.

Since he's your mayor.

[Megahurtz]

154. They just need to get Religion out of Politics

and Politics out of Religion.

It just doesn't work.

[cubschicago]

155. That's exactly what they are doing

They aren't letting politicians speak in their churches if they disagree with the Church on even one issue. That makes it essentially a ban on all politicians speaking. Read the whole article. The headline is inflammatory, the policy is not.

[Megahurtz]

156. I see,

it's basically okay for them to speak their opinions,
but it's not okay for us.

Sounds pretty oppressive to me.

[cubschicago]

159. Have you read the entire article?

That's the most important question. The Governor herself agrees with the policy. The Church isn't letting politicians speak in their churches and at their functions. It's called separation of church and state. Are you against the separation of church and state? If you are, that's a pretty dangerous path you would lead us on. It's not just abortion and gay rights, it's any position that the Catholic Church takes. So people who are for the war, pro-death penalty, etc. would be and are banned too. The headline is inflammatory and meant to sell newspapers. It's called sensational journalism. The first four paragraphs don't help. Read the entire article. You'll see that the Church is doing a good thing here.

[Bragi]

168. Wish it wasn't so...

But I fear it is so, and "cultural" <gag me> issues do, in fact, dominate the thinking of the very, very stupid people who now decide American elections. I wish it wasn't so, but it is, and there you go.

If I lived in the U.S, I would be thinking about buying acreage in a quite remote area.

Turns out the survivalists had it right all along, though it is surprising that it is the sensible people in America who need a place to escape the nutcases who now dominate.

- B

[bushisanidiot]

170. The donations he receives on sunday should be taxed since he runs a

political operation disguised as a church.

[Freddie Stubbs]

173. The Erie, PA Diocese did the same thing to Tom Ridge when

he was Governor.