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Pirate Smile Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-21-05 10:00 PM
Original message
WP: Democrats Split Over Position on Iraq War
Democrats Split Over Position on Iraq War
Activists More Vocal As Leaders Decline To Challenge Bush

By Peter Baker and Shailagh Murray
Washington Post Staff Writers
Monday, August 22, 2005; Page A01

Democrats say a long-standing rift in the party over the Iraq war has grown increasingly raw in recent days, as stay-the-course elected leaders who voted for the war three years ago confront rising impatience from activists and strategists who want to challenge President Bush aggressively to withdraw troops.

Amid rising casualties and falling public support for the war, Democrats of all stripes have grown more vocal this summer in criticizing Bush's handling of the war. A growing chorus of Democrats, however, has said this criticism should be harnessed to a consistent message and alternative policy -- something most Democratic lawmakers have refused to offer.

The wariness, congressional aides and outside strategists said in interviews last week, reflects a belief among some in the opposition that proposals to force troop drawdowns or otherwise limit Bush's options would be perceived by many voters as defeatist. Some operatives fear such moves would exacerbate the party's traditional vulnerability on national security issues.

The internal schism has become all the more evident in recent weeks even as Americans have soured on Bush and the war in poll after poll. Senate Democrats, according to aides, convened a private meeting in late June to develop a cohesive stance on the war and debated every option -- only to break up with no consensus.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2005/08/21/AR2005082100831.html

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FloridaPat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-21-05 10:02 PM
Response to Original message
1. Why can't they just go after impeachement? The guy lied. There is
proof galore. They should be screaming about how wrong ALL of this is. Get a spine Dems! Try attacking the opposition party, not each other.
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otohara Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-21-05 11:45 PM
Response to Reply #1
8. One Problem, The GOP Owns Washington
and they will none of this talk of impeachment.
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FloridaPat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-21-05 11:59 PM
Response to Reply #8
10. If enough people scream impeachment the repubs will start
panicing and next year's election should go a long way to getting the Democrats back in, especially the house. If all the people hear for a year is how * lied, Iraq is a mess because of * incompetency, and the only way start righting all these wrongs is impeachment, next year they will vote for anyone but a repub. It's time to start tearing down the repub party. It's either that or watch the invasion of Iran
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otohara Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-22-05 12:07 AM
Response to Reply #10
11. Well Then There's The Media
People may scream, but the media won't touch impeachment of Bush. Shit the media were willing participants in the theft of a couple of elections, they helped start an illegal war, and then covered up both.

Bush will not be impeached, it won't happen.
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OzarkDem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-22-05 03:24 PM
Response to Reply #8
28. So what?
The issue still needs to be addressed. What are Dems afraid of, their shadows?


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mntleo2 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-22-05 09:47 AM
Response to Reply #1
19. I Heard Some Reasonable Arguments Against Impeachment
Congress are the ones who review the articles of impeachment, the Senate decides whether or not those articles are worth removing someone from office. Democrats on the side against impeachment say this would take an incredible amount of energy and time, even if they were the ones in the majority. They point out that when Republicans were obsessing over Clinton, they did not get a thing else done. They say there are much more important issues to address such as our foregn policy, the economy, and social issues, the future plans with both wars, which are both disasters ~ and they can get a whole lot of political mileage out of not impeaching by continually bringing the failures of ALL those other issues out in front, while impeachment would only focus on one issue.

The pro-impeachment folks may think that this act would bring to fore more issues, but the impeachment acts against Clinton did not help Republicans. He won in a landslide in '96, and he is enjoying even more popularity as a sort of "martyr" now (and his wife on his coattails, a junior senator and yet one of the most powerful Democrats in the country) . We did not have the split in politics when Clinton was in office that we have today. Just because Kerry lost, he did *not* lose in a landslide, if he lost at all. The closeness of the race is not something to ignore on either side. It might be prudent to consider what will happen down the road and we do not want to make Bush a martyr. It could be far better for Bush as a lame duck, to leave this office in shame with all his party's so-called talking points as being proven out to the very end that they were all nonsense and in shambles. this might then put Dems in a far better place in future elections, on every level.

My two cents

Cat In Seattle
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FloridaPat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-22-05 03:13 PM
Response to Reply #19
27. Had the Democrats had a back bone for the last 25 years
we would not have to worry about "our foregn policy, the economy, and social issues, the future plans with both wars". They let it happen. Look at Reagan. Iran contra, illegal arms sales, WMD to Iraq. He left in "shame". Had 35 people in his administration convicted of misdeeds. He's a conservative national hero. The Dems keep backing the same message to these criminals - "do what you want because we don't think it worth putting you in jail". Why should the repubs reform? Why should they change anything? They will never pay the piper with the Democrats the opposition party.
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OzarkDem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-22-05 03:30 PM
Response to Reply #19
30. Forget impeachment, just oppose the war
That's still no excuse for not speaking out against the war and developing a partywide position on getting out.

Will it take some time and work? Hell yes, that's their job.

Anything that would slow down Congress today would be a good thing.
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sasquatch Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-21-05 10:06 PM
Response to Original message
2. Howard Dean needs to start crackin' skulls
And burn some pink tutus while he's at it.
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Teaser Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-21-05 11:53 PM
Response to Reply #2
9. One more time: Dean has NO Power
He does not set policy. He does not issue orders to elected officials.
He is the fundraiser in chief, and a talking head. That is all his job entails. He is not Mao and we are not the Chinese Communist Party.
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sasquatch Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-22-05 12:48 AM
Response to Reply #9
12. $$$=Power
If he say this is what the constituents want and if they don't get it then no more $$$ then they'll fall in line right away.
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nolabels Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-22-05 08:21 AM
Response to Reply #12
17. That 1% will even help manage the spin for the war down to the bottom
Like what the hell do I need a party for? Is there an election next week or something? Like this thinking of a 24/7 partisan view has got us were we all are today if you ask me(it's how its planned). Eff the ALL the chicken-hawk warmongers. When lots of people decide the thing is wrong no matter what, then that's when things will change. As just one reason, this wealthy 1% needs the war effort to keep going just make people occupied. Without it they know the focus might shift more on them for instance.


Antiwar Populism:
The Floodgates Open
Russ Feingold, Chuck Hagel, and Cindy Sheehan give voice to the pro-peace zeitgeist
http://antiwar.com/justin/?articleid=7009
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baby_bear Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-21-05 10:10 PM
Response to Original message
3. By all means, stay the course
...and keep handing victory to the Republicans.

Good grief.

I remember a line from a Boz Scaggs song that I loved during my college days:
Some people live and learn. I never was lucky that way.

Is that the Democrats' mantra now?

b_b

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Cha Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-21-05 10:21 PM
Response to Original message
4. No shit, sherlock!
Too bad the dems who voted for the IWR couldn't see the forest for the trees.

The ones who didn't vote for it are now able to see exactly why!
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mitchtv Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-21-05 10:24 PM
Response to Original message
5. Sickening
Sorry ,but "it has to stop.no more invasions' The sooner the better, and that means now". I guess I won't be a D much longer(after 40 yrs). the way they make me feel. I used to like those NY senators, now? I confess, I've always hated Dianne.
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wli Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-21-05 10:38 PM
Response to Original message
6. No we're not, the "hawks" are AEI/PNAC moles. n/t
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kskiska Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-21-05 11:40 PM
Response to Original message
7. "Excuse me, but do you ENJOY being in the minority?"
excerpt

Liberal bloggers have lambasted the party leadership for missed opportunities. When the Senate Foreign Relations Committee conducted a confirmation hearing for Bush confidante Karen Hughes, tapped as the next undersecretary of state for public diplomacy, not a single Democrat showed up to grill her on administration policy.

"Excuse me, but do you ENJOY being in the minority?" complained an entry that day on Think Progress, the blog for the Center for American Progress, a think tank run by former Clinton White House chief of staff John D. Podesta. While publicly quiet, Podesta has been one of many influential voices behind the scenes calling for a louder, more frequent drumbeat on the war, along with members of a national security group that advises congressional Democrats.
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jaysunb Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-22-05 01:01 AM
Response to Original message
13. Democratic voters have only one choice now
and that's to vote the fuckers out !
Give every IWR voting Congress Critter a run for all that coporate money in next years primaries.
That's the only thing that will turn this thing around.
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Voltaire99 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-22-05 05:20 AM
Response to Original message
14. I agree with Alexander Cockburn on what Cindy Sheehan should do next.
Take up a vigil outside Hillary Clinton's office until she stops supporting the Iraq war.

http://counterpunch.com/cockburn08202005.html
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-22-05 11:51 AM
Response to Reply #14
23. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
fjc Donating Member (700 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-22-05 08:11 AM
Response to Original message
15. No balls.
This is simply embarrassing. Democrats have not earned the priveledge to lead. They might get elected from discontent with this Presidential disaster, but there is no reason apart from that to vote for them or to hope they would or could do any better.
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bunkerbuster1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-22-05 08:15 AM
Response to Original message
16. Dems split over pink or lavender tutus
goddamn it, stop airing your shit in public, guys!

(it's mostly the guys. Most of the gals know better.)

Good article, though, thanks for posting it.
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Karmadillo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-22-05 09:25 AM
Response to Original message
18. Democratic disarray provides solace for Bush administration.
Worst President ever and we can't win in 2004 and we're setting ourselves up to lose in 2006 and 2008.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2005/08/21/AR2005082100831_2.html

Still, the Democratic discord has provided solace for Bush advisers at a difficult time. Although Bush's approval ratings have sunk, the Democrats have gained no ground at his expense. In a Washington Post-ABC News poll in June, just 42 percent of Americans approved of congressional Democrats, a figure even lower than Bush's.

Republican strategists chortle at the Democrats' inability to fashion a coherent message on the war. The Republican National Committee on Friday released a series of contrasting Democratic statements on troop withdrawals. "Instead of attacking our president's resolve," RNC spokeswoman Tracey Schmitt said in a statement, "Democrats might want to focus on the debate within their own party."

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TankLV Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-22-05 01:47 PM
Response to Reply #18
25. He's right - we need to 86 the vichy dems who support bunkerboy
from at least their positions of influence along with the DLC gang.

Who needs 2 repuke parties?
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Barrett808 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-22-05 10:07 AM
Response to Original message
20. Juan Cole: Ten Things Congress Could Demand from Bush on Iraq
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PATRICK Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-22-05 10:26 AM
Response to Original message
21. Where there's a will there's a word
Of course it must delight Dem "leaders" to gain the notice of WAPO in this demeaning way. In this one, the general situation is so obvious they don't need their DLC deepthroat(codename "impotence").

Kerry in fact DID steer the war support away from the dismal, exploitive Bush failure without touching upon the crime the Dems sort of sanctioned, sort of complained about, sort of rallied behind the president and troops and the general ME policy, sort of rolled over and played dead. Is it because the leaders might have to belatedly apologize or retract their Iraq war resolution emboldened by the growing realization of the public(without benefit of media or government or opposition party). is it because the party leadership is finely attuned to the information and judgment of the MSM and the hollowed out cracking shell of past American policy. Are they still spooked by "lessons from the past" and wise DLC memes, and that oasis of parity the swinging gate fringe voter? Are they just paralyzed by all of the above and more?

Is it just that to admit anything would be to cast doubt(which apparently they already have) on their own legitimacy to lead when they can't make an incontrovertible(unspinnable) stand on the law, their own political survival, our PHYSICAL survival, America as America? Why is it so easy to become a model that is universally despised and not take a stand or a chance on what is right even when the majority(apparently not clustered properly in electoral geography) is groping far far ahead on the most obvious track of the truth?

If they wanted to, they could find the words. If there was wrong doing or plain incompetence, it could be fairly and unequivocally pointed out. If they didn't want a split they could simply lead. The left or progressives or anti-war movement or the MAJORITY are still willing to give the centrist logs a chance, which is more than could ever be honestly said for the Bush enabling collaborators whose great stands on various issues have been flushed down the toilet in their failed strategy, their abdicated leadership, their lost or stolen political offices.

They say "mcGovern" as if McGovern were Nixon. They say the center as if it were a bunch of rednecked rubes who happen to live in the burbs. They let themselves be steered away form the people, their activist constituents, let themselves dip into the second best political money pool of corporate interests, some of whom are fervently pleased by the decimation of the people's party.

The war was a lie. The people's support was a lie. What support there was was based nearly 100% on lies, certainly not the sage pragmatism of irrelevant lawmakers. The news was and is a lie. The fact that people don't volunteer or donate was a lie or a weak surrender. The fear of alienating the apathetic fringe I would like to think is a dishonest mask for the safety of impotence, that is - a lie. The alternative would be much worse. The fact that you have to cater to a people blinded and dulled to support that very blindness and apathy is a ludicrous lie.

It is all exposed in case the pols haven't noticed. If they can't find the right words it is because they don't want to and have entered the fantasy rooms of No Pols Land where even the shrinking audiences of miserable, anti-Democratic TV pundits will fail to offer consolation to
now confident Dems who can easily be shoved aside- were it not for those of us who spotted the truth like an orphan wandering in a desert and brought it home out of exile.

Kerry, for example, stuck his neck out for the lies and gave Bush a chance. Then when the inevitable and already started war went against UN wishes he did speak out, but without sticking his neck out. In fact, people only stuck their necks out of the ground for real chances when it came to bashing what they believed was something even more impotent than centrist politics- that is progressive populism. Then again no one would dream of accusing the left of downing helicopters or election fraud. at least we are not to be feared. At least we could be rallied for the salvation of the real America and the liberal agenda. As such we could not only be ignored but dismissed, sneered at and attacked as well, not by Kerry as much as the people egging him toward the black hole of the "center", removing any power to escape its empty pull.

The frame. The frame. WE know it. Sometimes the pols say they do, but they don't really. And they certainly are impotent to compete or defeat it as a party. it is not something that is best done by imitation or playing catch up or whining about lost media and money advantages. WAPO says the Democrats are split over the war. Split? All Americans, the vast majority of Democrats, are now turned against the war and slowly gathering the suppressed reasons around that fact. Most honest Republican's are or would be against the war were not the majority will and wisdom constantly repressed. THAT is obvious whether the polls are catching up on the natural trajectories of truth or continuing to weight presumptions themselves in favor of the god king emperor.

The split is in the microscopic world of pols and strategists, many of whom a fiercer and less spiritually kind activist resurgence would have immediately purged after the pathetic rollover to fraud and lies the past years(decades?)

This is what you get when the losing manager who should have been sacked, his fault or not, looks around, sees himself still there, and says to himself, "I must be right, someone else is wrong. I will therefore stay the curse, I mean course." And then prove himself even worse and more defensive than ever, but with a gnawing doubt buried within.

There is no split except in the particular mind of war vote enablers and mythic centrists. If people are of two minds it because of the murk of lies- and you can't split murk without light.That split is in large part created by the whispers echoed back from the likes of WAPO, decrepit, spiteful, inert Theoden's able and treasonous Wormtongue, the likes of certain DLC theorists and any GOP parrots who bother to kick sand in their faces. It is otherwise a lie and can be wholly so if the "leadership" would divorce itself from the whole "divide and conquer" game. It would NOT take such framing commentary lying down but united forcefully behind the mothers, the victims, the soldiers. Something beside whining about the obvious lack of political clout to get the troops proper supplies or benefits in a war they should never have sanctioned or supported or left un-investigated.
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TankLV Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-22-05 02:06 PM
Response to Reply #21
26. Wow - what an eloquent and well thought our statement.
Thank you.
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Dyedinthewoolliberal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-22-05 10:44 AM
Response to Original message
22. Here's what I don't understand
this snippet lifted from the article. What do they mean by this anyhow? There are plenty of us voters WHO DID NOT WANT TO GO THERE TO BEGIN WITH! Defeatist? How about good money after bad? How about lies? How about no WMD's? How about internal politics in Iraq that will never be settled by our influence or 'persuasion' no matter how much our leaders want to believe it. :shrug:
To our Dem leaders I say "Geeze, grow spines please and hammer the 'Pubs about this! Unless of course, you are in on the action............."



proposals to force troop drawdowns or otherwise limit Bush's options would be perceived by many voters as defeatist
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Roland99 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-22-05 12:45 PM
Response to Original message
24. "stay-the-course elected leaders who voted for the war three years ago"
Are those our DLC-dandies?

The ones afraid of admitting they gave the cowboy too much power?
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Eloriel Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-22-05 03:26 PM
Response to Original message
29. I have an idea -- hasn't been tried in a while
Edited on Mon Aug-22-05 03:28 PM by Eloriel
except by a few people here and there.

Why don't we decide what's the RIGHT thing to do and go for that? Instead of trying to pick a politically expedient position?

It might show people we really do have a spine; it might show something we used to call leadership; it might show some PRINCIPLE and CHARACTER and INTEGRITY for a change. It might get people's attention. Who knows, it might even get votes if people find something and someone they can BELIEVE IN, not to mention believe.

And it MIGHT be just the right thing to do, whether we win votes or lose votes for our principled stand.

(I'm so sick of these self-serving cowards.)
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