Jewish Group Rips S. Baptist Convention

[Behind the Aegis]

NASHVILLE, Tenn. -- A leading Jewish organization is condemning the Southern Baptist Convention for using a group of "messianic" Jews _ people who have already converted to Christianity _ in its evangelism.

Anti-Defamation League director Abraham Foxman said the effort is offensive because the Southern Baptists are using Jews who have converted to Christianity "to go after other Jews."

"If people convert, that's their individual business," Foxman said. "But don't use them as a tool to convert other people."

At the heart of the ADL's complaint is a decision by the Southern Baptist Convention executive committee to ask its missionary boards to study the idea of recognizing the Southern Baptist Messianic Fellowship as "an evangelistic mission to Jewish people."

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2005/09/29/AR2005092901451.html

[Name removed]

1. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[jody]

3. I understand your anger but similar conflict exists between Protestants

and Roman Catholics and between Muslims and Hindus.

Armed conflict between Muslims, Christians, and Jews seem to have their origin in religious intolerance.

IMO, finding peace between religions is the first destination to world peace.

[Mountainman]

6. I think that religious people are incapable of finding peace with each

other. They all teach that they have to one true religion and all others are false and that they need to go out and convert others to their belief system. I think that Jews are the only ones who do not proselytize.

[kineneb]

7. there are as many ways to enlightenment

as there are individuals who seek it...

one size does not fit all

[MissMarple]

19. The Quakers don't.

And the United Churches of Christ are pretty open, as are the UU's. If I was going to attend church I would probably go to one of the latter two. :)

[JVS]

23. You know, that doesn't quite wash.

If the Quakers don't do proselytizing, then why the hell are (or at least were) there Quaker missionaries? Sure they might call it evangelizing instead, but really that is only based on the negative connotations of the word Prosyletize. They still spread their message.

Look at this page for an example of Quaker evangelists. http://www.nwfriends.org/evangelism.html

[MissMarple]

42. Good to know.

I wonder about the Amish, the Mennonites, and the Brethren. I probably should google. :)


And since how you achieve a goal is usually as important as the goal itself, it is easy to see why the bible thumpers with all their negativity and superficial piety give Christianity a bad name.

[October]

47. Quaker Evangelists are TOTALLY different

They split from the Quakers...and they are fundmentalists at heart. Amazingly different

[JVS]

51. So there are different branchers of Quakerism?

Interesting. How many branches are there and when did they start up?

[October]

49. "Meeting Quakers" and "Church Quakers" differ greatly

The "Church Quakers" are born-again, Bible-followers. They rejected the silence and meetinghouse customs, including seeing "the light" in everyone...and the liberalism that allowed anyone to be a Quaker.

The split happened about 100 years ago...

[JVS]

50. Is that the type of Quakers that Nixon came from?

[frictionlessO]

60. Proselytizing is negative... thats not a connotation.

There is nothing more insulting than this practice. It is an act of praying on the down trodden. It is an act of lay guilt tripping. It teaches intolerance, bigotry and divisiveness.

The intolerance of anothers faith and need to convert them is based on ego driven needs of reassurance that they are right, to enlarge the roll call of the particular faith lobbying its cause to individuals, and to further enrich said faiths' coffers and over all hold on power.

The disrespect that must be shown in order to save a soul is disgusting and one of the most flagrant detractors of these kinds of religions.

Then again thats just my perspective I'm sure that there are people here who think proselytizing is just the bomb diggity.

[Fight_n_back]

24. Not true

"they" don't all teach that they are the one true religion. Christianity and Islam are the primary sinners in that regard.

I have never had a Buddhist, Taoist or Jew show up at my door with literature.

[KitchenWitch]

36. Nor a pagan for that matter

[Fight_n_back]

52. Actually

I've had a lot of Wiccans try to convert me but mostly with incense.

chortle

[KitchenWitch]

54. yeah, we are heavy on the incense!

:rofl:

[Trillo]

2. So now you know your real 'value' to the church.

It's an evangelical ponzi scheme.

[VegasWolf]

8. Exactly!! More members = more tithes = more money. nt

[Qibing Zero]

4. They've been doing this for a while now

I remember how highly valued those Messianic Jews were. Many of the Christians have a thing for the Jews what with the whole rapture bit.

Funny, the Muslims have the same god, but they're apparently pure evil. Strange how things work when you supposedly have the wrong son of Abraham - no more chosen land for you!

[Burning Water]

5. Freedom of religion means

that the Southern Baptists are well within their rights when they attempt to evangelize, proselytize, or share the Gospel; however you want to put it.

As is Mr. Foxman when he objects. The Baptists, should, in my opinion, ignore him. He, on the other hand should do as he pleases. If he chooses to be offended, nobody is hurt but himself.

[reprobate]

13. What about OUR freedom from THEIR religion. The rest of us have no rights?

[Burning Water]

26. Sure.

Tell them that you are not interested. If they continue, well, that could be construed as harassment, perhaps. Still, there is very little freedo "from" anything. They have, at elast Ithink so, the right to say what they want, same as the left.

[Bridget Burke]

21. If he chooses to be offended....

Quite a few of us understand why.

Yes, the Southern Baptists are free to preach as they wish, in as tacky & tasteless a way as they prefer. (Old churches in the country can be lovely in their spareness; modern SBC mega-churches generally look like regional headquarters for medium-sized insurance companies.) They were also the first denomination to go over to the Republicans as a group.

[Burning Water]

27. He certainly has

a right to be offended. I understand why, too. But there is no right not to be offended. Otherwise we on the left are violating the rights of the right. You think these people are not offended? You may not be paying attention. Screw 'em. It's a tough world, and there is lots to be offended about. Doesn't justify limiting freedom of religionor speech or press. These rights have worked more to our benefit that t hat of conservatives, and we would be fools to try to nibble away at them.

[frictionlessO]

61. I agree and I think I'll just be as insulting and threatening as they are

right back.. after all we are talking about individual spiritual paths here. So it really doesnt matter at all beyond influence and power in the material world.

They disgust me as much a sdigust them I am sure, I love democracy!

[Burning Water]

63. Go for it.

Just don't violate their rights to their religion and freedom of speech.

[Nihil]

38. There's a reason for that ...

> modern SBC mega-churches generally look like regional headquarters
> for medium-sized insurance companies.

Both organisations are in the same line of business: taking money off
people under the pretence that said people will gain something in the
indefinite future.

[JVS]

22. Yes.

[HockeyMom]

25. And we have the right to

slam our doors in their faces or pull our kids from their Bible Classes in Public Schools.

It works BOTH ways. Talk all you want, but I don't have to LISTEN.

[Burning Water]

28. That's pretty much

what I've been saying. Rights work for both sides. Nobody says you have to listen.

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

48. It also means the freedom to have a tingly feeling in your head.

[dethl]

58. Wow, that card brings back memories...

I used to play that game back in the 4th or 5th grade.

[VegasWolf]

9. If one converts three other people, do they get a free toaster? nt

[genieroze]

10. To go after other Jews? Are they armed with holy water?

Police need to update their codes. We have a 10-666, illegal baptism of a Jewish person. :sarcasm: On a serious note, can't a Jewish person tell them to back off. I have had Ha-ri Krishna's come up to me and I just ignore them. They can also respond when asked if they found Jesus: Where did you leave him last? Just for the record, I'm a agnostic.

[VegasWolf]

11. LOL. I think they are armed with a dusty old book! nt

[reprobate]

14. I like to ask them if they're ready for heaven. RIGHT NOW!

[JusticeForAll]

15. How do they respond to that question?

n/t

[reprobate]

18. with surprize and rapidly disappearing backs after seeing my facial

expression.

[genieroze]

16. Watch out, I gotta porta-baptismal and I'm not afraid to use it.

:evilgrin:

[IndianaGreen]

12. Here is a 1984 article that warns about the goals of Religious Right

Zionism may mask conversion efforts
The Tribune/September 22, 1984
By Ed Taylor

Jews should be careful about entering into a close dialogue with fundamentalist and evangelical Christian groups that are trying to use support of Zionism as a cover for proselytizing activities, says a Phoenix Jewish leader.

Richard Ross, a member of the national Committee for Cult and Missionary Activities of the Union of American Hebrew Congregations, specifically questioned the work of Rabbi Yechiel Eckstein of Chicago, who has written several books on Jewish-Gentile relations and engages in conversations with such leaders of the fundamentalist right as the Rev. Jerry Falwell.

Eckstein spoke this week in Tempe during a visit sponsored be the Jewish Federation of Greater Phoenix.

In an interview with The Tribune, Ross said he is deeply skeptical of the motives of Christian fundamentalists, who he believes are manipulating the Jewish community for their own ends.

"They are involved in Zionism for purely self-interpretation of the Book of Revelation," Ross said. "They see Israel as playing a pivotal position in the end of the world as we know it. This should be of concern to Jews, because such fundamentalists support a violent, volatile situation in the Middle East Peaceful reconciliation between Arabs and Jews would contradict their dark prophesies."

http://www.rickross.com/reference/fundamentalists/fund81.html

[genieroze]

17. 1984 article? How Orwellian.

:scared:

[wordout]

20. "use support of Zionism as a cover for proselytizing.."

hoodwinking the zionists!LOL!!i LOVE it!

"..involved in Zionism for purely self-interpretation."

very telling. So, there are *requirements* for christiansupport of zionism, like, for instance its ok for rossie-baby to nurture support from this same group to support war for israel. riiiiight. zionists like U helped create the monster, rickie poo --enjoy your frankenchrist!

:rofl:

[Frederik]

40. Huh?

"zionists like U helped create the monster, rickie poo"

Which monster would that be, that "Zionists like Rickie Poo" helped create?

[Chi-Town Exile]

44. DUDE! Step away from the bong ... nt

[Chi-Town Exile]

45. Self delete ... double post. Sorry! (Hate when that happens ... LOL) nt

[Wordie]

31. Oxford Univ. Press published EXCELLENT book on this topic, by Israeli

journalist and author, Gershom Gorenberg (he is also a contributor to The New Republic), called "The End of Days: Fundamentalism and the Struggle for the Temple Mount." I read it and recommend it highly for anyone interested in this topic.

Here's a link to more info:
http://www.oup.com/us/catalog/general/subject/ReligionTheology/AnthropologyofReligion/?view=usa&ci=0195152050

<snip>
Gershom Gorenberg is an associate editor and columnist for The Jerusalem Report, a regular contributor to The New Republic and an associate of the Center for Millennial Studies at Boston University. He lives in Jerusalem, where he has spent years covering the dangerous mix of religion and politics.

<snip>
Adroitly portraying American radio evangelists of the End, radical Palestinian sheikhs, and Israeli ex-terrorists, Gorenberg explains why believers hope for the End, and why prominent American fundamentalists provide hard-line support for Israel while looking forward to the apocalypse. He makes sense of the messianic fervor that has driven some Israeli settlers to oppose peace. And he describes the Islamic apocalyptic visions that cast Israel's actions in Jerusalem as diabolic plots. The End of Days shows how conflict over Jerusalem and the fiery belief in apocalypse continue to have a potent impact on world politics and why a lasting peace in the Middle East continues to prove elusive.

[barb162]

29. If this article gave numbers of Jews converted, I missed it

I wonder if any have really converted. I agree with the ADL.

And IMHO we all need to slam the door to fundies. The last time some fundie came to my door I think he said "Jesus told me to come here to talk to you" and I think I told him "the Angel Gabriel told me to slam the door in your face."

[Wordie]

30. Well this is all very curious because...

as I understand "Messianic Judiasm," it would not fit the definition of Christianity as understood by most Christians, anyway. Most Christians follow the Nicene creed, which has to do with the trinity. (If you don't know about the Nicene creed, you can read it here: http://www.mit.edu/~tb/anglican/intro/lr-nicene-creed.html)

Messianic Judaism, on the other hand, believes that Jesus was the messiah, as prophesied in the OT, but doesn't (as I understand it), believe in the trinity. In other words, they think Jesus was a messiah, but not a god.

So, for me, this is totally confusing, because why would the Southern Baptist Convention want to recognize Messianic Jews as Christians, if they do not accept the trinity (one of the most basic of Christian beliefs), not to mention recognizing them as "an evangelistic mission to the Jewish people."

None of this makes any logical sense.

And as for the tie to Zionism, here is a link to a great article discussing the history of "Christian Zionism": http://www.nthposition.com/theimpactofchristian.php

[JudyM]

32. Jews do not believe Jesus was the Messiah, period. That's not negotiable!

Jews for Jesus or Messianic Jews or whatever... they're not Jews. Also, Jews do not proselytise... that's a basic premise, too. In fact, it's somewhat of an effort to convert to Judaism because we want to be certain people are coming to it freely and after serious reflection. That's one of the reasons there are so few Jews relative to Christians.

[Wordie]

43. Yes, I know about the serious reflection (I once considered converting),

but I was under the impression that because the whole concept of a Messiah was Judaic, believing that Jesus was a Messiah was not such a stretch. Are you saying there are specific Judaic teachings that say the Messiah has not come?

The prosletyzing surely would be an area of conflict.

[JudyM]

55. Right -- Jews believe the Messiah has not yet come.

We've got a lot more repairing the world to do before that happens, as I understand it. But certainly Jesus was not the Messiah, in Jewish belief. He is not part of our teachings so to the extent he is discussed it is in a comparative way with Christianity.

[Wordie]

59. Many Christian churches today stress the Judaic roots of Christianity.

Perhaps that has something to do with all of this too. In terms of the Baptists, that is.

[Fight_n_back]

53. not entirely accurate

as you no doubt know, there have been many "messiahs" throughout Jewish history. Jews don't consider divinity a part of the messianic prophecies at all. The early Christians were considered just another sect of Judaism until they split from the gnostics and started Hellinization full bore. That is around the time that Augustine appropriated Zoroastrianism for Christianity.

But for a comet confusing the Emporer Constantine, gospel songs maight be directed toward Simon Bar Cochba today.

[JudyM]

56. Who are the acknowledged messiahs you're referring to?

Never heard of that in all my years...

[the_spectator]

33. What is this?!?!

When it comes to garments, Hollywood movies, or legal help, they know they can beat us hands down, but when it comes to something so relatlively inconsequential as relgion, they want protection?

Disclaimers:
I kid because I love.
Honestly, they have a good reason to complain.
It's late, I'm drunk, I'm tired, I'm giddy.

[Andromeda]

34. Southern Baptists are fire-breathing fundies...

who would love to hasten Armageddon, or I should say the "rapture" and will do or say anything to further their hideous agenda.

Most sensible Jew are not going to let themselves be used in this way.

[barb162]

46. My thinking too

and I think most Jews are sensible

[Andromeda]

35. Southern Baptists are fire-breathing fundies...

who would love to hasten Armageddon, or I should say the "rapture" and will do or say anything to further their hideous agenda.

Most sensible Jews are not going to let themselves be used in this way.

[fujiyama]

37. Honesty

How many Jews are going to be convinced by some other person that claimed they were Jewish but converted?

Personally, proselytism is annoying but not a threat to my way of life. At least as far as coming to my house. As long as they don't threaten me, I will simply tell them that I'm not interested and shut the door. That's what I did a few weeks ago. The person asked if we were interested in their church or Jesus or whatever else. I said "No I don't go to church". I took their stupid literature and shut the door. That was that.

[Frederik]

39. They must all be converted

before the Rapture cometh! Then the righteous shall inhabit the New Jersusalem and we can't have a bunch of Jews down there, spoiling the party for the Southern Babtist Convention.

[NorthernSpy]

41. all this proselytizing is very irritating, if nothing else

Besides Christianity and Islam, what other religions have spawned such aggressive missionary factions? I can't think of any at the moment, though there might be some examples out there.

In any case, I guess I'm just not a big fan of the conquistador mentality, y'know?

:think:

[daleo]

57. Flying Spaghetti Monsterism

It seems like I am alway hearing about that noodley appendage thingy.

[goforit]

62. Ooops!...A tit for tat!