Shots at helicopters shrouded in a `fog'

[Scurrilous]

http://www.miami.com/mld/miamiherald/news/nation/12802783.htm

Reports of gunshots aimed at rescue helicopters in New Orleans on Sept. 1 now appear to have been little more than rumors.

<snip>

"Among the rumors that spread as quickly as floodwaters after Hurricane Katrina, reports that gunmen were taking potshots at rescue helicopters stood out for their senselessness.

On Sept. 1, as patients sweltered in hospitals without power and thousands of people remained stranded on rooftops and in attics, crucial rescue efforts were delayed as word of such attacks spread.

But more than a month later, representatives from the Air Force, Coast Guard, Department of Homeland Security and Louisiana Air National Guard say they have yet to confirm a single incident of gunfire at helicopters.

Likewise, members of several rescue crews who were told to halt operations say there is no evidence they were under fire."

[MichaelHarris]

1. reminds me of um, let me think

oh yeah, drums of chemical weapons in Iraq that Fox reported over and over with scenes like Geraldo holding a mason jar of bleach. Good ole Fox, Keep the sheep in fear and voting repub.

[bluestateguy]

2. It doesn't matter anymore

All the whitemaleconservatives heard on Fox News that the shots were fired, and that was enough for them. This story has now been spread all around workplace watercoolers. It doesn't matter if the correction to the story appears on page B6 of the Miami Herald a month later. It took 2 years to get the American people to wake up and realize that Saddam Hussein was not involved in 9/11.

[BiggJawn]

32. They're awake?

"It took 2 years to get the American people to wake up and realize that Saddam Hussein was not involved in 9/11."

I don't know about your area, but around here, they're still drinking Kool-Aid in their sleep then they wake up and write LTTE repeating the "Gotta fight 'em there..." schmutzwasser.

[Tomee450]

50. It's been spread not

only in the US but around the world. I heard a report in which a survivor of the Asian Tsunami said she just could not understand the violence perpetrated by the victims. Those victims were maligned when most of them obeyed the law. People just seem all too willing to believe any report of criminal behavior by black people. Many people said wait until a full investigation but their calls fell on deaf ears.

[Judi Lynn]

66. That's really sad news.Hope they'll get the rest of the story someday. n/t

[DFWdem]

72. Well, when the report is made by the Chief of Police

Who are the people to believe? Eddie Compass, who recently resigned as police chief of New Orleans, who happens to be black, had this to say:

There may have been uncertainty about the source of the gunfire the night before, but now there was no such confusion. "To my amazement and astonishment," says Eddie Compass, the New Orleans police superintendent, "armed crowds started shooting at rescue personnel. We immediately had to go from rescue mode to tactical mode." Compass had a bird's-eye view of the chaos. Flying in a police helicopter, he was surveying the damage and identifying stranded residents for rescue boats on the ground. Suddenly, a call came in on his police radio: A fire truck fighting a blaze in the eastern part of the city was taking gunfire. A SWAT team responded but couldn't spot the gunmen. "We hear SWAT ask for eyes in the sky," Compass recalls. So his chopper abandoned its rescue work and diverted to the scene. When he got there, his helicopter started taking fire. The gunmen vanished. Anarchy reigned.

http://www.usnews.com/usnews/news/articles/050926/26tuesday_2.htm

[Nothing Without Hope]

3. Thanks for this, I've added it to my "faked violence" file. I wonder:

were the consistent and super-hyped reports of out-of-control violence and shots fired at rescuers all based on "innocent" though unprofessional and extremely injurious bad journalism - basically giving credence to baseless rumors and then repeating them over and over,

...or was this a deliberate propaganda program? After all, it had direct effects. It provided an excuse for blocking aid/rescue by civilians and troops and it pushed the ugly racial stereotype of gangs of violent, bestial "looters™."

For myself, I believe this consistent hyping and fabrication of stories of horror (raped children, slashed babies) and terrifying violence was and is DELIBERATE.

[Child_Of_Isis]

6. It provided an excuse for blocking aid/rescue

Yup!

[burythehatchet]

19. Right

FEMA used that as one of their many excuses for failing to respond.

[notadmblnd]

14. I agree, it was deliberate

not shoddy journalism. It not only provided an excuse for aid/rescue operations, but I believe it was also done to incite violence. They wanted a "war" down there.

[Nothing Without Hope]

51. Oh yes. They wanted a war down there and I believe they wanted and

STILL want racial and class divisions and even protests - preferably violent - around the country. The "need" for protection from those dark-skinned hordes of ravening "looters™" and baby-killers is consistently at the top of the list of excuses for the push by the Administration for military police power. This is a reprise of the way they used the 9/11 attacks and did (and do) everything they can to instill fear of "terra-ists™" creeping behind every tree to push through their war of choice and strip the country of constitutional checks on the power of the POTUS.

Under the chillingly dictatorial powers of the FEMA executive orders, Bush can declare martial law and call in federal troops whenever and whereever he pleases for "civil unrest." According to one of those executive orders, which he can activate with a stroke of the pen, Congress can't even REVIEW such a decision for six months. I urge you all to read and learn just how they have been planning these moves and how scary FEMA's powers really are. The fastest way to do so is by reading the following entire thread, including the important articles posted in the replies:
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=104x4790112
thread title: Missing A KEY POINT in *'s speech: POWER GRAB FOR POTUS AND MILITARY

Manipulating and magnifying the fears and prejudices of the American public has been a potent and effective route to power for the neocons, just as it always has been for aspiring totalitarian regimes. They are trying to make the aftermaths of the hurricanes their jumping-off place for their move for greater power and dismantling of constitutional protections.

To give you a clearer idea of the scope of what is moving here, please read this article, written in Dec 2003 as a response to Gen Tommy Franks' unusually - well - frank statement that one more hit (like 9/11) and the Constitution would be suspended. Read the whole article, please, but I'm going to give you the paragraph that sticks in my mind. Think of it when you see all the hyped and fabricated reports of "rampaging looters™" and "out of control roving gangs™" coming soon to get YOU!!! The neocon leadership thinks they can get us to view our fellow Americans as their next model of "terra-ists™" and scare us into letting them "protect us" from these non-existent hordes. Hey, look how well it worked for them since 9/11!

http://www.sptimes.com/2003/12/07/Columns/From_Tommy_Franks__a_.shtml

It was the Nine Years' War in Aldous Huxley's Brave New World that facilitated the seizure of power by the world reformers who then took control of nearly all human and social development. In 1984, George Orwell described Oceania as in a constant state of war with a changeable enemy who "always represented absolute evil." These inventors of the great dystopias understood the way governments use war and its associative fear and instability to consolidate power. Despotism thrives on insecurity. Abraham Maslow's hierarchy of needs puts safety right behind food, water and sleep. Humans naturally crave stability and are willing to sacrifice values such as liberty in its pursuit.

[mccoyn]

38. Do you have a list of debunked rumors.

I have some co-workers who truly thing they were a sub-race in New Orleans after hearing all the rumors. I wasn't on strong ground then when I was disagreeing with all the media reports. Now that some more objective news is coming out I'd like to reopen the issue with them. I know of two or three specific incidents that were debunked, but any more would be helpful.

[Nothing Without Hope]

53. I have a collection of about 20 bookmarks, mostly to du threads, of

documented situations in which claims or strong rumors of violence were shown to be false. I don't have time right now to list them for you but will work on that tonight. We need to build a new thread in which we post and discuss the examples we know and ask for more. There are multiple reasons why such a resource would be valuable - and one of them is to rebut those "everybody knows" statements like you want to do.

I also believe there should be a far, far stronger counterpush to the racial stereotyping - including those bestial gangs of "looters" and child-rapers - that has been soiling the US media. This fear- and hate-mongering is the very worst of poisons in every way. Along with the list of examples (and call for more) we can give another list: the reasons why such vicious propaganda is useful to the neocons and their enablers.

So I'll be back tonight with some examples for you, but we really do need to build that thread for collecting examples and publicizing this as a "cause" that needs activist attention in a major way. I urge those of you who read this and are as concerned as I am about it to consider working on that thread with me. Let's pool the information and ideas that we have and build a resource and motivation to make change and spread the truth.

[marions ghost]

70. agree

this story needs activist attention.

This latest Monstrous Lie has sold far and wide. Even the dental assistant cleaning my teeth was chatting about it as if it was a genrally accepted truth that "they're shooting at the rescuers down there..."

[Nothing Without Hope]

69. Sorry, no time to post the promised collection tonight, will do tomorrow

[Nothing Without Hope]

73. Here are a couple of links to get you started. I think I should work on

setting up a thread to collect and analyze them. I have about 20 and will just choose a couple of them to get you started:
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=102x1749293
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=104x4568012
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=102x1805793
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=104x4894327
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=104x4898146
http://www.nytimes.com/2005/09/29/national/nationalspecial/29crime.html?incamp=article_popular

[ljm2002]

39. Totally agree...

...these reports were much too consistent to have been innocent mistakes.

This regime never misses a chance to turn a situation to their own political advantage. In the case of Hurricane Katrina and the City of New Orleans, they had two goals: 1 - give FEMA the biggest black eye possible, thus reinforcing their message that the government can't do anything right, certainly not when it comes to something that might actually help its citizens in a time of need; 2 - hasten the exodus of the pesky largely-black, largely-poor population of New Orleans, clearing the path for a Disneyfied version of that fabled city.

I pray they will not succeed in either endeavor.

[DoYouEverWonder]

52. During the first week of the disaster

almost every story in the M$M lead with reports of looting.

In all of the hurricanes that have hit everywhere else, looting was always a footnote and down played.

In the case of Katrina, BushCo and HS/FEMA wanted anarchy. They wanted to let NO descend into chaos, so that they could launch their next military operation. We think Iran and Syria is next. LOL. No, I think the American people are next on BushCo's list.

Thank god that things didn't go the way BushCo planned.

[okieinpain]

71. yeah, it would provide great cover for martial law across the nation

[NorthernSpy]

4. in fact, the FAA debunked this one soon after it hit the news...

... not that that did any good. Hysterical twits kept right on spreading this and other fictions -- even after being made aware of the FAA's statement on the matter:

Laura Brown, a Federal Aviation Administration spokeswoman in Washington, said she had no such report.

"We're controlling every single aircraft in that airspace and none of them reported being fired on," she said, adding that the FAA was in contact with the military as well as civilian aircraft.

ABC reported that on September 1.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=104x4611169


Notice that the rumor-mongers have thus far failed to apologize to the population they defamed -- or even to acknowledge that the tales they helped to spread are unsupported by evidence.

[JPZenger]

46. Didn't Mean Much to Say FEMA didn't know

For FEMA to have said they didn't know anything about shots being fired at helicopters didn't mean much at the time. They didn't know much about many things.

But this particular lie resulted in dead people. It resulted in people not being evacuated with serious medical conditions. It resulted in people being left in hospitals without electricity or water, which killed patients. It resulted in bus drivers refusing to drive into New Orleans to bring out evacuees.

This lie was widely reported in every news report. The reporters didn't feel a need to confirm it because the authorities had cancelled all helicopter flights. They thought that the medical evacuations wouldn't have been cancelled unless the report was true. Many helicopter pilots were quoted as saying they were ready to keep taking people out, but that they were ordered to stop because of the gunfire. The hospitals had patients ready for transport. They didn't get out until a couple days later.

[cornermouse]

5. The power of fear...

Its really quite an effective tool. And apparently its use is not limited to the terrorists. I wonder how many more people could have been saved.

[Nothing Without Hope]

54. Thousands upon thousands more could have been saved. And those

who survived would be treated far better than they are. To see how poisonous this stereotyping has already been, read the two excerpts in this post:
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=104&topic_id=4932192&mesg_id=4942950

[Psephos]

60. The latest Louisiana death toll is 964

Which makes it a little difficult to see how thousands and thousands more could have been saved.

Just a thought...

Peace.

[marlo]

62. The "official death toll" is not relevant right now,

There are tens of thousands of people still missing. Wait until they start counting them as deceased.

[Psephos]

Tens of thousands of missing people but very few more bodies

http://abcnews.go.com/US/wireStory?id=1180931

Why are so many DUers clinging desperately to this idea of thousands and thousands and thousands dead? The MSM created the original illusion, only to sheepishly admit later they got carried away, and yet everyone who thinks there's political advantage in lots of dead people defends the original erroneous reports like fundies defending the bible. No one doubted the numbers of the MSM when there was political hay to be made, but now it's all a big conspiracy when the numbers aren't quite so tragic (or politically useful).

Of all things in the universe, nothing would be harder than a massive spontaneous conspiracy involving all levels of government, media, and local residents to cover up the numbers of dead after a natural catastrophe. Far more likely that the bodies were snatched by pod people in spaceships. Or maybe spirited away by some of New Orleans' flesh-eating zombies?

I mean this as gently as I can put it: time to give it up.

Peace.

[Nothing Without Hope]

65. I am speaking about the full Katrina disaster zone. And that official

death toll number, which is rising almost daily as they FINALLY go into the homes for bodies, is very low in my opinion. DMort told morticians to expect up to 40,000 bodies:
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=104x4674804

[Psephos]

68. They've already gone into the homes. The search is now over.

"NEW ORLEANS Oct 3, 2005 — The search for bodies of people killed by Hurricane Katrina has ended in Louisiana, and more searches will be conducted only if someone reports seeing a body, a state official said Monday."

http://abcnews.go.com/US/wireStory?id=1180931

No offense intended, but it seems your information is out of date. FEMA alone completed 23,000 house checks. Who knows how many other agencies, private parties, etc. did their own checks. Of course there will be more discoveries made, but it's clear that there will not be ten thousand bodies discovered stacked in a warehouse in Area 51.

The time for rumor in this whole Katrina mess is over.

Peace.

[newswolf56]

7. Like #3, I believe this was deliberate disinformation, intended...

to provide a rationale for genocidally delaying the rescue efforts -- to play directly to honky America's deepest and most vile fears (what some black leaders have characterized as "Negrophobia") while implanting the notion the trapped victims were subhuman and therefore unworthy of saving: as I heard an obviously Ku-Kluxed Kaucasian say in a local checkout line, "just like Los Angeles after Rodney King -- so ungrateful and full of hate they shoot any white man on sight including people trying to save their worthless lives."

This kind of hatemongering is a classic Josef Goebbels ploy: substitute Jews for blacks and precisely the same tactic was repeatedly (and successfully) used by Hitler and his Third Reich. Moreover it has already done immeasurable damage to the New Orleans black community's hope of avoiding ethnic "cleansing."

I am especially furious at the blatant racism demonstrated by the breathtaking speed with which the media pounced on the rumor and disseminated it. Another reason we need an independent inquiry: tracing this rumor to its despicable source.

Meanwhile, somebody somewhere is no doubt getting an "excellent/excellent" evaluation on a textbook propaganda project -- and a whole people are suffering as a result: note again the 80 percent of American whites who (especially after the false reports of shooting) steadfastly refuse to believe there was any racism at all in the post-Katrina delays.

And -- by the way -- forget the notion it was the "evil" Soviets who first developed the technique of "disinformation" -- nor even the German propaganda genius Goebbels. The Russian word for this particular tactic is clearly borrowed from English: dezinformatsiya -- which should send that particular fable permanently back home, most likely to a suburb south of Washington D.C.

[NorthernSpy]

11. fwiw, a Coast Guard Lt Cmdr Cheri Ben-Iesan was an early spreader...

... of the helicopter-shooting rumors:

http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/tm_objectid=15922236&method=full&siteid=94762&headline=dead-bodies--rape-crack--gunshots--filth-and-a-sickening-stench-filling-the-thick-air--name_page.html


As was ambulance company "official" Richard Zeuschlag:

One ambulance official overseeing the airlift rescue operations said a gunshot was fired at a military helicopter over the Superdome before daybreak.

"We have suspended operations until they gain control of the Superdome," said Richard Zeuschlag, head of Acadian Ambulance, which was handling the evacuation of sick and injured people from the building.

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,168112,00.html

[SnowGoose]

8. I wonder if it would be possible to trace the reports back to their origin

like an infectious disease.

[annabanana]

10. Now THAT would be an interesting line to follow..

It wouldn't surprise me one tiny bit to discover that there were mockingbirds involved...

[NorthernSpy]

12. some of us are trying to do just that

Anyone who wants to help collect and track false and questionable news is more than welcome!

:)

[annabanana]

9. reports were just designed to add to call for military intervention

OBviously, no one but the Army (and it's contractors) is CAPable of subduing these criminal predators, these wild Americans.

more bullshit, that's all

[Nothing Without Hope]

13. I agree. Here's a whole thread on that - the Bushies want the Prez

to have sole control over military police that he can call into action anytime, anywhere he pleases. In effect a military dictatorship. If you think this is an overstatement, Please read this entire thread, including the replies:
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=104x4790112
thread title: Missing A KEY POINT in *'s speech: POWER GRAB FOR POTUS AND MILITARY

[0007]

15. Yikes!

"Your doing one heck of a job Brownie"

[leveymg]

16. What happened to the 2 guys arrested by ATF with pistols?

Eight days into the crisis, the DOJ reported that an ATF team had arrested two young men who were accused of taking night-time pot shots with a .22 pistol at a helicopter. Heard nothing about that since. Has anyone seen any follow-up?

I recall the reports of snipers came in the first couple days. These guys may have been copy-cats.


http://www.usdoj.gov/usao/lam/press/press0507.html
On today's date, September 6, 2005, the United States Attorney for the Eastern District of Louisiana, Jim Letten, and the United States Attorney for the Middle District of Louisiana, David Dugas, along with Mark Chait, Special Agent in Charge, Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives (ATF), obtained a federal complaint charging WENDELL BAILEY with violations of Title 18, United States Code, Sections 922(g)(1), and 32(a)(1) and (7), for being a felon in possession of firearms and for attempting to destroy an aircraft with these weapons.

BAILEY was apprehended on September 5 by Special Agents of the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives on patrol in the Algiers section of New Orleans. The Special Agents had observed BAILEY shooting out of an apartment window as a helicopter flew over the neighborhood. Numerous civil and military aircraft, including helicopters, have been flying in the New Orleans area performing essential duties, including interstate evacuation of displaced persons, search and rescue, and the humanitarian supply of rescue materials. After his gunfire, BAILEY attempted to leave the building but retreated inside when Special Agents approached him. The Special Agents surrounded the building and called BAILEY out. BAILEY's firearms were recovered under a mattress: a .22 caliber Rhomn revolver and a .32 caliber Smith & Wesson revolver, along with a box of 9mm ammunition. Two spent .22 cartridges were recovered from the .22 revolver.

[halobeam]

18. OK, so forgive me, but this seems legit...

so which is it? Was someone firing shots at helicopters or wasn't there?

Another double factual story. Contradictory, polar opposite from one another, and both backed by facts, and reliable sources.

This administration will always have these contradictory reports. Always. No one ever really knows what the heck is going on, unless they investigate it fully, themselves.

[leveymg]

21. Let's see if they prosecute & convict these guys.

But, I still recall reports of snipers gong back to the third or fourth day. That would coincide with the false report given by the owner of the air ambulance service referenced below.

Seems that this may have started as a rumour, and the feds later found some idiots with guns to substantiate, and perhaps, attempt to justify the grossly inadequate air evacuations and the military containment of the city.

[NorthernSpy]

22. no: apparently, they did NOT actually see Bailey shoot at aircraft!

The agents claim that they heard shots around the time a helicopter was in the vicinty, and later saw two men walk out of a building:

http://www.woodtv.com/Global/story.asp?S=3812756

I'd tend to expect that the felon-in-possession firearms charges might well stick. But I'd be very surprised if prosecutors were able to convict Bailey of attempting to damage aircraft, given that there's currently no actual evidence of him firing at any helicopters. I suspect that those charges had more to do with the hysteria that surrounded the situation than anything else.

And you'll notice, this particular man-shot-at-helicopter story had pretty much dropped out of the news after the first week of September. Which might suggest that the authorities aren't so sure on that particular point.

[leveymg]

25. The DOJ report says ATF "observed" the suspect shooting out a window,

while the news account says the agents "heard" shots. They could well have been shooting at something else, and there's no evidence of any gunfire damage to any helicopter, otherwise we would have been shown it over, over and over and over again.

I agree that these guys seem unlikely to be convicted of the federal charge of trying to destroy aircraft.

[NorthernSpy]

30. I agree: wouldn't be surprised if that charge ultimately gets dropped...

... and the gun possession charge (for which there seems to be some actual evidence) remains.

[Nothing Without Hope]

17. A related thread: "Wanted: Media Skeptics"

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=103x161566
thread title: Wanted: Media skeptics ( re rumors and lies printed in wake of Katrina)

[Lone_Star_Dem]

20. The original source for this story is a man named Richard Zuschlag

He went on CNN doing a live phone interview stating how one of his helicopters was shot at while trying to evacuate people from a hospital.

By the next morning he was telling a different story.

If you read the post below you will see how he either over reacted at first or outright lied.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=104&topic_id=4567927&mesg_id=4569881

[NorthernSpy]

23. thank you for posting that!

Another piece of the puzzle...

Nice work!

:thumbsup:

[Lone_Star_Dem]

29. I just happened to catch that one

I got lucky. :)

[ret5hd]

27. boy oh boy...there were a couple of people in that thread...

that INSISTED, WERE POSITIVE, WITNESSED, that the incidents did happen.
that the entire area was a fuckin' war zone, comparing it to baghdad.

i wonder what their agenda was? I wonder...

[Lone_Star_Dem]

31. Those were some wild times

Most people were trying to deal with what they were seeing and the massive levels of destruction and death. I learned quite a bit about how rumors begin and how quickly they can grow. It was very interesting and enlightening.

[ret5hd]

33. i think there were a couple of people in that thread...

who's agenda was served by the rumors and purposely spread them because of their agenda.

[Judi Lynn]

57. Here's what they published in a short article about him today:

Rumors of rescue copters under fire unfounded
By MIRIAM HILL and NICHOLAS SPANGLER
Knight Ridder Newspapers
10/3/2005

NEW ORLEANS - Among the rumors that spread as quickly as floodwaters after Hurricane Katrina, reports that gunmen were taking potshots at rescue helicopters stood out for their senselessness.
On Sept. 1, as patients sweltered in hospitals without power and thousands of people remained stranded on rooftops and in attics, crucial rescue efforts were delayed as word of such attacks spread.

But more than a month later, representatives from the Air Force, Coast Guard, Department of Homeland Security and Louisiana Air National Guard say they have yet to confirm a single incident of gunfire at helicopters.
(snip)

Acadian Chief Executive Richard Zuschlag repeated the story to the media, unaware that his crew had been acting on a military radio report. Zuschlag said he learned only in the past week that his crew had not actually seen the crowds.
(snip)

http://www.buffalonews.com/editorial/20051003/1054505.asp

[Lone_Star_Dem]

59. Thank you for posting this!

I would never have seen it otherwise and it feels so good to see it in print. :)

[Scout1071]

76. I can't seem to open the thread. Was it started by me?

I started a thread on the mysterious, no evidence of shots fired and I recall it was a heated debate with some insisting it was true and essentially calling me a troublemaker.

[zanne]

24. When will the MSM apologize for this?

And who will be fired for reporting unsubstantiated rumors as fact?

[jsamuel]

26. DAMIT!!! We called this as false way back then!

AAAAAAAARRRRRRRRRRRGGGGGGGGGGGGG!

They stopped rescue operations for a whole 2 days because of this!

Or because they couldn't do it anyway, so they made up a reason!

[Name removed]

28. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[jus_the_facts]

34. DON'T FORGET...you CAN NOT TRUST the MEDIA....

.....or is that only TRUE when it's CONVIENENT? In REALITY only if you were literally IN NEW ORLEANS could you confirm or deny anything the fucking media says in regard to what actually happened...there or any where else for that matter...amazing the double standards where the media is concerned these days....the RUMORS the RUMORS...GODDAMN the clusterFUCK of this is beyond all comprehension...sigh. :dilemma:

[alcibiades_mystery]

35. Let's be very clear: RACISM

The entire panic about "lawless" New Orleans was American racism writ large: fear of a black planet.

It was a sickening display, and many here at DU even have much to account for and reflect on.

About that national ddialogue, now....

[jus_the_facts]

37. In light of 2 NOPD suicides and over 200 who quit in the aftermath....

....of Katrina...those officers who decided to leave should be questioned in DEPTH of their experiences of what went on down here. :evilfrown:

[WA98296]

36. I think I know who fired those shots -- Really.

I was watching CNN, and there was a couple on talking about how the "sheriff" of Gretna had held them at gunpoint and kept a large group of people from crossing the bridge. This happened on Thursday (Sept. 1). They also said that the group of law enforcement had been firing shotguns over their heads. This took place not all that far from Charity Hospital, and I think it may have well been heard there from the rooftops.

Just my crazy idea, but I noticed the coincidence in timing awhile back.

[StrafingMoose]

63. Those kind of FEMA hired guys?

http://www.sun-sentinel.com/news/local/southflorida/sfl-fema24apr24,0,5139773.story?coll=sfla-home-headlines

[Robb]

40. Not rumors at all.

I've confirmed a single case of gunfire at helicopters with a Navy kid who went to school here. He was quite clear that he was being shot at.

representatives from the Air Force, Coast Guard, Department of Homeland Security and Louisiana Air National Guard say...

Most reporters really suck, I'm afraid.

[oneinok]

41. sounds more like the "fog of war"

sounds more like the "fog of war"

[sandnsea]

74. Have him call the paper then

This story was released just days after the incident was reported. The FTA said at the time that NO Air Force, Coast Guard, Department of Homeland Security or Louisiana Air National Guard confirmed being fired at. None. Zero. Zilch. Zip. Your "Navy kid" needs to report that incident to somebody because NO OFFICIAL has the report.

[M155Y_A1CH]

42. It was all a smoke-screen

They had to give us some reason for the non-response.
They weren't even there yet,
when they were grounding rescue boats and helis.
We all could tell they weren't there yet, after days.
It was clear as day on the tv tube, that rescue had still not arrived to the area.

[bvar22]

43. That "rumor" is still perpetuated on the streets of NewOrleans

It is repeated and elaborated upon by white, middle age males in the white suburbs. I heard it again in the checkout line of a quickie store yesterday. I told the guy (and everyone else listening) that I had heard that the military and NG now deny the reports.
He said "Well, I know its true. My brother-in -law was in one of the choppers, and he showed me the bullet hole"!

[GayCanuck]

44. The MSM is

anxious to report without the facts, much like the 10-25 thousand rumored to be dead.

[Kailassa]

45. who may well be

[johnaries]

47. I see a pattern.

Bush wanting the LA governor to give up full authority before Katrina, rumors of gunshots at rescue forces, and Senators wanting to "review" Posse Comitatus as a "result" of Katrina.

Anybody else see what I see?

[Nothing Without Hope]

55. OH HELL YES I SEE IT - see my post upthread and follow the links.

It's reply #51, here:
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=102&topic_id=1822657&mesg_id=1823764

[johnaries]

64. Thanks for the links!

I'm going to have some fun with some "conservative" friends of mine at work tomorrow.
:hi:

[Nothing Without Hope]

67. Please do come back and report. And again I want to emphasize:

please go through ALL the replies posted in that long martial law thread. There are a lot of pieces there and all are important. If the thread stays un-archived, I'll be adding more; I haven't posted much on NorthCom itself yet.

They have been setting the stage for years to suspend more of the Constitution and destroy the protections from military dictatorship embodied in the Posse Comitatus Act and were just waiting for the "enabling event." IMO, if the hurricane hadn't obliged them, there would have been another "surprise terra-ist™ attack" - and I am very concerned that it may still happen as their political ratings continue to drop. If you'll indulge my tinfoilhat a bit more here, I am also concerned that as Bush becomes progressively more of a liability and his obviously deteriorating mental state becomes ever more dangerous, they may arrange a tragic assassination, blamed on the favored enemy du jour (Iranians?). That would solve a lot of their problems in one stroke.

[texpatriot2004]

48. Gee I wonder who had the idea to spread this rumor? Who would

benefit from a rumor like that? DUH.

[Tomee450]

49. It is so unfortunate

that so many people, even on this forum, believed those rumors.

[MisterP]

58. and not only believed, but tied up their very beings to those rumors

anyone voicing the mildest of demurrals was blasted as needing to have thugs rampaging through their houses (with more capital letters, though), being pro-rape, etc., etc.

[lateo]

56. This brings up some interesting questions.

Who reported this story first?
What was their source?

Who verified it before all the networks picked it up?

I wonder too if Haley Barbour was asked to sign an insurrection decree for Mississippi. I'm betting he wasn't.

[MarsThe Cat]

61. I alwaqys wondered how that all started...?

did pilots hear gunshots(i don't know how you'd be able to hear anything in a helicopter)? did bullets bounce off the helicopters?
who and why would be shooting at the helicoptors?

i called bullshit on this one early on.

[RedCloud]

75. I am spreading this word. We have to stop their insanity now.