Long Island principal cancels prom (Over Flaunting of Financial Decadence)

[RamboLiberal]

http://www.cnn.com/2005/US/10/16/prom.canceled.ap/index.html

Brother Kenneth M. Hoagland had heard all the stories about prom-night debauchery at his Long Island high school:

Students putting down $10,000 to rent a party house in the Hamptons.

Pre-prom cocktail parties followed by a trip to the dance in a liquor-loaded limo. Fathers chartering a boat for their children's late-night "booze cruise."

Enough was enough, Hoagland said. So the principal of Kellenberg Memorial High School canceled the spring prom in a 2,000-word letter to parents this fall.

"It is not primarily the sex/booze/drugs that surround this event, as problematic as they might be; it is rather the flaunting of affluence, assuming exaggerated expenses, a pursuit of vanity for vanity's sake -- in a word, financial decadence," Hoagland said, fed up with what he called the "bacchanalian aspects."

I applaud this guy - bet he gets canned or slapped silly by the parents and their affluent brats. BTW, this is a Catholic High School.

[Scooter24]

1. dupe

[Scooter24]

2. dupe

[Scooter24]

3. I disagree.

The school should not involve itself in matters like this. Since when did the school gain power over the wealth of its students? The school should only be concerned with what happens during the event. The other concerns should rest with the parents. It should be of noones concern but my parents with how much I or anyone wishes to spend on pre- or post-prom events.

If I was a student there, I'd probably ask my parents to form a coaltion and get parents to throw the party, and then tell the school to shove it.

Edit: Sorry about the dupes.

[Old Vet]

4. I actually respect the stand he taking,Must bother him............

to see the suffering in this world and watch kids flaunt there PARENTS money needlessly like this. I don't believe its a matter of we got and mind your own business, Its more like you got it and so many don't. I get it!

[Scooter24]

8. But really, what did he accomplish?

Now you have no official prom, but instead will have a group of wealthy parents throwing private parties to make up for it. Imagine how a student will feel if he or she doesn't get invited to one of these private prom parties? Or if a poorer student doesn't have the money to attend one of the more elaborate private soirees and will end up missing out of prom altogether?

[THUNDER HANDS]

19. a "poorer" student at Kellenberg

is still pretty rich, don't cry for them.

[Javaman]

34. Well boo hoo...

I didn't go to my prom because I couldn't afford it, believe me, they will go on somehow.

But this leads to another point: It's time as a nation that we stop this bullshit of trying to keep up with the Joneses. This mentality of trying to be something that we are not. Teaching our kids that overt in your face class one up manship is okay. It's the bizarre new vogue. And as a result, people are now more in debt and declaring bankruptcy at a record rate, because their pay checks don't match their misplaced sense of reality.

Perhaps one or two of these kids will see the the lesson in all of this. I doubt it. I think these long island OC kids will miss the point completely.

[AgadorSparticus]

99. and how would these poorer students feel going to a prom with

all that decadence? I would absolutely hate it. I have to respectfully disagree. I think it is shameful that parents would allow kids to think it is ok to spend the kind of money for prom that everyday folks spend on weddings. Kudos to the principal for taking a stand against this nonsense.

to add: reading the extravagent means they go through for prom in Long Island makes me so thankful to grow up where I did: a fairly poor area where there were no limos or anything of that sort. We knew kids who were migrant workers and we all saw poverty up close. It gave everyone perspective.

For the A-list kids at school, the best car in the student parking lot was a convertible mustang or something like that. Most kids had second handed junks--if they were lucky.

[Canuckistanian]

158. Wretched Excess

During a time of war, increasing poverty, fiancial ruin imminent, a major American city destroyed, a government in crisis and American life about to be changed drastically, someone says maybe this isn't time to spend huge sums on sex, drugs and rock 'n roll.

Especially in a religious institute. Good on him, I say, no one is "entitled" to a no-limits party on a solemn occasion. They have the right, to be sure, but the optics of such a "bachhanalian" spectacle is beyond reason.

I have nothing against having a good time, but good times should be earned in proportion to accomplishment.

Maybe, just maybe, it'll give the parents pause....

[Javaman]

31. I totally agree with you.

And it has gotten way out of hand.

This school is just a breeding ground for repukes that have theirs and screw the others.

If taking away their prom gives these little spoiled brats a moment of reflection in their otherwise shallow little lives, then great, but don't expect it to last long.

Because as the article states, the parents may organize their own prom. Fine, go for it, and in a few years they will see the bullshit that goes on and understand the reasoning behind the schools move.

Remember, these are the types of parents that only parent part time, and that their little darlings could never do wrong or possibly do any of the things the school claims them to be doing. More head in the sand reality.

I weep for our future.

[LonelyLRLiberal]

5. Well, Scooter, obviously these parents aren't going to control their kids.

Maybe the principal overstepped, maybe not, but he is right about proms getting ridiculous. These spoiled brats and their spoiled, irresponsible parents ought to have some conscience about those Americans who are suffering from the hurricanes and floods. The money wasted on this junk could do a lot of good elsewhere. Of course, this type of person probably wouldn't consider giving money to help disadvantaged people. I imagine they just blame the victims of the natural disasters.

[Scooter24]

7. But

aren't you being judgmental? How do we know what these parents have contributed to society? All we know is that some kids have sex and drinks after the prom, which happens pretty much everywhere, and that the some parents wish to let their children celebrate more extensively than others. To me, it seems like the school wishes to control what goes on after its event and so it unfairly labels all the students to achieve what it wants.

I attended a NYC private school, and I would be livid if my school was to have pulled this on me.

[LonelyLRLiberal]

12. You are right, I don't know what the parents have contributed

but when parents promote underage drinking by providing the means, their values are suspect, IMHO.

BTW, isn't the Prom pretty silly, after all?

[Javaman]

36. I never understood the concept of the prom to begin with...

All it does is feed into the the social class order of the school. Amplifying the have nots, the haves and the have mores.

To me it has always been a study in teenage torment. The cute girls get the cute guys, the jocks get the cheerleaders and they are all on display as being the "best" that the school can offer. While the rest are left to fend for themselves and envious of what they don't have.

It is all so bizarre. I find it nothing more than modern societies coming out for the alpha male and female.

As a race of people we have not evolved at all, we just wear better clothes and have straighter teeth.

[northzax]

46. it's a catholic school

and as such, is supposed to be teaching students the values espoused by the Catholic Church, modesty, frugality and charity are among them. Should the school be sponsoring an event in which the students go completely against the mores of the school? frankly, providing a location for the neauvou riche to show off isn't in their charter, right?

it's a slippery slope, I did my prom, for under 150 bucks, including dinner (and drink) tuxedo rental and putting a tank of gas in my car. Big deal. And yes, I went to a private school that costs more than your average state university's out of state tuition. There was no showing off, why bother flashing money when everyone has it? who cares? it's a dance, not like it was the last time I ever got dressed up and went out for the evening, right? Act like it's normal, it really is.

[rocktivity]

45. What happens AFTER the prom is not the school's business

Hopefully, the parents' involvement in the after-party will not be limited to picking up the tab, but what happens is THEIR responsibility.

The principal's decision amounts to legislating morality, and the only thing it will accomplish is getting the kids within range of the alleged "debauchery" that much sooner!

:headbang:
rocknation

[K-W]

65. Nor did the school make it thier business.

The school isnt telling anyone what they can or cant do, and if the students want to organize thier own party they can. The school is simply choosing not to sponsor an event that it feels has a negative impact on students.

[Realityhack]

123. well put. n/t

[Realityhack]

122. Um... wasn't this a catholic school?

Seems to me if they didn't want to have morality tought/legislated/whatever to them they would have chosen an non-religious school.

[K-W]

64. The school should not involve itself in a dance it sponsors? Huh?

Since when did the school gain power over the wealth of its students?

It didnt, but it always had power over the prom.

The school should only be concerned with what happens during the event.

So I guess High Schools around the country should cancel thier programs to keep students from drinking before and after the prom?

The other concerns should rest with the parents. It should be of noones concern but my parents with how much I or anyone wishes to spend on pre- or post-prom events.

No, since the school sponsored the prom, the effects of the prom on its students are very much its concern. If the school feels that the prom was having more of a negative impact on students than positive it had every right in the world to cancel the event. Schools arent charged with being social committees, they are charged with acting in the best interests of students.

[Realityhack]

120. catholic school?

If it was public I would agree but with a religious school?

[IndyOp]

133. It is a religious school - he is supposed to provide moral

leadership. He is doing that. I was raised Catholic and I seem to remember a few tidbits:

It is harder for a rich man to enter the kingdom of heaven than it is to get a camel through the eye of a needle.

Blessed be the poor, theirs is the kingdom of heaven.

Finally - as Reverend Jim Wallis says - there are over 3,000 quotes from Jesus about taking care of the poor and NONE about capital gains tax.

[LetsGoMurphys]

183. Amen n/t

[JerseygirlCT]

177. The prom is a school event

so they have absolute rights to cancel it.

If the kids want to waste money on a private party, they are also quite free to do so.

[Porcupine]

6. It's about damn time somebody did this. Huzzah!!

I cannot tell you how sick it makes me to have to dodge the kids who are driving to high school in $40k SUV's with a wad of cash in their pockets.

Some things that piss me off: Eighth grade graduations and birthday parties where 13 year olds drive past the homeless in limosines.

High school boys whose parents give them more spending money than men working honest trades have after bills and taxes.

Kids who've never worked a real day at a real job in their life being celebrated for a high school graduation that now represents a minimal standard of literacy and nothing else.

There is going to be a civil war in this country if you have one class that flaunts money like this living next to others who cannot afford heat this winter. Shut it down.

[kestrel91316]

9. Sounds just like Lost Angeles...............

How I hate the spoiled rich brats with the giant black cars and loud stereos, racing up and down residential streets til 4 AM........

I have to put up with two separate "nests" of them right across the street from me.

[Zynx]

27. I grew up in a spoiled rich-kid area and it is disgusting.

Parents were buying their kids brand new VW Jettas, giving their kids high paying, do-nothing jobs in their local businesses, and paying for every crazy thing you can imagine for their kids. The result is we had a huge number of people that didn't appreciate the fact that most people in this world have to earn everything they have through hard work and life wasn't all about crazy drug-filled parties that went until 7 in the morning. And you know what? These spoiled brats are all Republicans and then they lecture about how the poor should "get off their asses" and "get a job". They make me sick.

[Carni]

33. I grew up in the same kind of an area

And it was indeed disgusting (esp in retrospect)

The amount of coke alone that the brats were putting up their noses a month would have paid some poor people's rents for the year.

I also believe the Catholic Church has a mission statement of sorts that promotes helping the poor.

The school is a private Catholic school and I think it is totally appropriate that this guy is voicing his opinions and following his personal conscience.

Let the parents host the parties and take on the legal burden.

[bluestateguy]

10. I support this decision

It's a private school, so his decision is perfectly legal. One could make the case that such decadence is not very Christian, and hence, inconsistent with the values of the school.

Unlike many liberals, I do not automatically hate private schools. I think they serve a positive need sometimes, and if more progressives would make a committment to it, we could build our own private schools, founded upon liberal, progressive principles.

I oppose vouchers, by the way.

[Bridget Burke]

20. Private schools can be valuable parts of the community.

Sounds like this principal is using the prestige of his school to make a serious statement. The rich kids can always get their parents to pay for private parties.

The best private schools have entrance exams; money alone will not guarantee admission. And they offer scholarships to smart kids with non-rich parents.

I'm not for vouchers, either.

[flygal]

175. Oh I agree completely with your post

My one conservative side of me wished I had uniforms and more regiment to my school years. I hated public school after going to a private one for a while. It was out of control. Now there are police officers at Middle Schools. They've let the kids get out of control - they need to have more respect.

[nosmokes]

11. it's treating a symptom at best and symbolically at that.

but more power to the principal for having some principle (sorry) and attempting to make a point anyhow.

[Hardrada]

13. Theoretically vanity is some kind of sin, isn't it?

Certainly greed is. And indifference is deadlier still. Good call, Brother Hoagland!

[MarsThe Cat]

23. one of the "7 Deadlies"...

but then, covetousness is prohibited by the 10 commandments- and our way of life(capitalism) depends on it.

[NeoConsSuck]

14. Kudos to Hoagland

I see not much has changed on Long Island since I left. Then, the popular bumper sticker was "He who dies with the most toys wins" Where on the weekends, parents spent more time simonizing their cars and groundskeeping than they did with their kids.

I moved to upstate NY and never regretted it.

[Javaman]

38. Me too, left long island 16 years ago, never looked back.

I was from the firebird driving, gold chain wearing, disco dancing, era. Needless to say, a bald headed punk rocker wasn't the best fit for that neighborhood. LOL

[sandnsea]

15. $6,000 tuition

What about that financial decadence? This is a rich Catholic school and Hoagland is a right wing fundie that wants to turn it into a nunnery. If he feels soooo bad about the affluence, reduce the tuition and open the school to another class of students.

[Bridget Burke]

24. RIght wing fundies do NOT get along with Catholics.

And only right wing fundies use words like "nunnery" nowadays.

Even rich kids need an education. Perhaps some of them will have a stray thought or two--before Mumsie & Dadsie fork over for their private party.

[sandnsea]

63. They do these days, where ya been?

And nunnery was a joke. Rich kid need an education? Then have them volunteer at a soup kitchen. Cancelling the prom isn't going to teach these kids anything about financial divides. This prom outrage isn't about the opulence, it's about the sex.

[Bridget Burke]

68. Read the "September Prom Letter" first....

Apparently opulence is considered more of a problem than misbehavior. While you're at the website, let me know what Fundamentalist ideas you find.

www.kellenberg.org/

Here's an essay on differences between Catholicism & Conservative Protestants:

www.religioustolerance.org/chr_capr.htm

Right Wing Protestants have allied with the RC Church on abortion & gay rights. But the Church is also against the death penalty & aggressive war--and FOR social justice. The Dominionist movement is rooted in virulently anti-Catholic varieties of Protestantism.

[sandnsea]

70. lol

Okay, a defender of the faith. Deny that the Church has moved radically to the right all you want, it doesn't make it any less true. I don't participate anymore because it has moved so far right. If you can tolerate it, then good for you.

[Bridget Burke]

73. As an atheist, I stopped participating about 30 years ago.

But I was raised among the Fundies in rural Texas & learned what they thought of my family's Church.

The RC Church has been against abortion & homosexual behavior for a long time. Not forever in the case of abortion. And homosexual orientation is not considered a sin; acting on the urge is a sin. (Of course this doesn't make sense--but the Fundies think that gays are inherently evil--or just haven't met the right girl.)

Please let me know how it's moved "radically to the right".

Edited to add: What did you think about the full texts of the prom letters?

[sandnsea]

83. Many ways

The Church used to be centered around forgiveness and tolerance. Everybody is a sinner, everybody goes to confession, one sin isn't greater than the other. Catholics didn't busybody in each others lives, sin was between the individual and the priest and God.

The Church was also centered on helping. There was no sense of judgement on poverty, money wasn't equated to blessedness. You didn't judge whether or not you should help. If you can do good, you should. Period.

All of this has changed and it has changed since the integration with right wing fundies on abortion. Now you will hear Catholics saying that helping people is enabling, just like the fundies. You will hear Catholics getting in a tizz over Bingo, when previously Catholicism was not a Puritanical religion. The fact that Democratic politicans are singled out over abortion when most Republican Catholic polticians are pro-choice too, is evidence enough.

The Church has moved right. It is getting more fundie every day. It's a shame. After reading those letters and the little rant over "American Pie", cancelling the prom was about sex. As someone who was raised Catholic, the principal's outrage is hysterical because nobody parties like Catholic kids. That's a given. This principal is attempting to implement right wing "values", like the rest of the Church. Nothing more.

[Bridget Burke]

86. OK. Catholics are getting more Right Wing....

Because you say so. You've heard them say it--or, so you say.

[sandnsea]

101. Are you serious???

This is news to you?? You aren't even religious, haven't been to Church in 30 years, but you're the expert??? :eyes:

[moc]

140. The Catholic Church is extremely diverse

Don't assume that the fundamentalist wannabe Catholics speak for the majority of American Catholics, regardless of who the Pope is. There is a vital progressive movement in the Catholic Church committed to issues of social justice.

Read Commonweal.

Look into Pax Christi

Listen to the Franciscans.

Listen to the Jesuits.

Look in to Open Door.

Look into Call to Action.


Don't assume the entire Church is right-wing just because you haven't been exposed to the progressive part of it.

[eridani]

172. And check out the Quixote Center

--and the Maryknolls.

[adigal]

181. I agree that the Church has moved to the right

and generally only cares about two things: abortion and gay marriage. So when I see a principal care about opulence and decadence, care that these kids are wasting great sums of money and showing off, I say, "Good for him."

At least he is paying attention to this.

[brentspeak]

69. About the sex?

I don't get it. Where does 'sex' enter into the picture here? This story is about cancelling a prom.

[sandnsea]

71. Did you click and read?

It's about sex and drinking and drugs after the prom. They aren't hosting "an orgy". That's what the article says.

[brentspeak]

72. Yes, I read it

I just don't see where the 'sex' comes in after the prom.

[sandnsea]

80. Here

Read the two letters. This is about sex, not opulence. The letters make it more than clear.

http://www.kellenberg.org/

[shrike]

35. It's also Long Island

Very expensive place to live. Also a very expensive place to run a school, I would imagine. I know a couple who live on the Island. They like living there, but the best they can afford is a basement apartment.

[NNguyenMD]

192. $600 I spent on my highschool prom, biggest waste of money ever

[northzax]

49. $6000?

that is nothing for that area, and private education in general. I can almost guarantee you that no one is turned away from that school for inability to pay, but you know, those teachers need money too, right? I bet you can't find a private, non-religious school on long island under 18 grand for high school, and there are probably 15 over 25 grand, and that's for DAY schools. Boarders pay 40+

[sandnsea]

62. Then what's the guy complaining about

If that's the drill on Long Island, he knew the deal when he went into it. How absurd to begin complaining about it now. And I can almost guarantee you that the school turns away kids for inability to pay all the time, it couldn't operate otherwise.

[northzax]

113. did you notice the 'brother' in his title?

he's a monk, he goes where the church tells him to go. And, of course, by your logic, no one should try to change anything, since we know the deal going in, if we don't like it? too bad.

five bucks says it has need blind admissions and that any admitted student who can't afford the tuition gets financial aid.

[Xithras]

53. A $6k tuition isn't really expensive.

Perhaps if you're poor, but I've got co-workers who make $40k-$50k a year and pay that much to send their kids to Catholic school. My last boss had THREE kids in a school that expensive, and he only made $75k a year with a stay at home wife. Most Catholic schools also have financial waivers available that allow people who can't afford the tuition to attend for reduced tuition, or even no tuition at all, if the family is a practicing member of the church in good standing.

The only gross display of affluence here is by some of these parents.

[Ellen Forradalom]

81. Six grand is peanuts to the affluent

Try University of Chicago Laboratory Schools on for size at fifteen grand. Prep schools go up from there.

[sandnsea]

105. $6,000, $15,000, $50,000

The point is that if the principal were really concerned about affluence, he wouldn't be principal at a private school at all.

[kath]

107. Geez, the man is a Catholic religious brother, a member of the Society of

Mary (Marianist), and principal of a *Catholic* school. He's concerned that the school should live up to its mission statement and Catholic values. (It doesn't seem that the Marianists take a vow of povery, but still, Catholic school tuitions, teacher salaries,and administrator salaries are generally FAR below those of public and other private schools. He's likely not getting rich himself. He's not working with the poor, but by teaching these kids the important social teachings of Christ (see the Beatitudes, etc), and teaching about the evils of vanity, avarice and greed, he's doing some good work.)

Hey, I'm an atheist and probably as (or nearly as) anti-religion as anyone here, but I FIRMLY stand by the following statement:

It is entirely appropriate for the principal of a private school to see to it that the school's curriculum and school-sponsored activities are consistent with its mission statement and values.

[sandnsea]

109. You bought into the anti-rich rhetoric

That is all. But paint it up any way you want to.

[Realityhack]

124. Right On!!

Well put. As another athiest I second your statement. Heck I would say that for ANY school (its just a matter of what the values and mission statement are).

[Ellen Forradalom]

114. I disagree entirely.

Whatever else you might say about the Catholic school system, they make great efforts to make a Catholic education accessible for those who want one. Thousands of working class Chicagoans send their kids to Catholic schools. Some of those schools are pretty damned good.

Same goes for Jewish day schools. Here in Chicago they are making a big push to make a Jewish education accessible and affordable to anyone who wants one.

I wouldn't slap everyone who signs a tuition check with the label 'idle rich.'

[sandnsea]

116. The principal does

That's supposedly his outrage, the "decadence" of the extravagant spending of the parents in his school. Don't put that on me. However much money these parents have, the principal knew it when he took the job. To express outrage when the school is a product of what he's a part of is ridiculous. I don't think it's about the money or extravagance anyway, I think it's the sex.

And no, Catholic school is not accessible for everyone. The only working class Catholics I know who sent their kids to Catholic schools are parents who went to those exact same schools when they were kids. Otherwise, you either pay up or you're SOL. And keep in mind, some plumbers, electricians and carpenters make more than the teachers. If that's what you're defining as working class, you might need a new definition.

[Ellen Forradalom]

117. Here in Chicago

we've got a whole cityful of working class people, including thousands upon thousands of Mexican and Polish immigrants. These folks are not, in the aggregate, rolling in money. Yet you'll find lots of their kids in Catholic schools.

These are NOT the same folks who send their kids to U of C Lab, Francis Parker or Chicago Latin. You looking for serious bucks? That's where you'll find it.

[sandnsea]

121. Really?

I guess these could all be Polish kids, sure aren't Mexicans.

[Ellen Forradalom]

137. Take a little drive down 26th or up Milwaukee Ave. some fine day

We're not talking Effete Prep School here. To treat them as if they were both elitist institutions is absurd. Catholic school is not free but it is several orders of magnitude cheaper, and has an entirely different reason to be, than the exclusive private schools.

Let's agree to disagree. Each has made his point.

[bettyellen]

141. i can bitch about my 11 years in catholic schools....

but they always run on a tighter budget than public schools, in urban/ suburban areas they pay teachers less money and get away with it because they are "safer" and without exception have charity/ scholarships avail for some students. same as catholic hospitals, it's built in to their mission.

[sandnsea]

144. "some" students

Which is what I said. Every student who wants to go to Catholic school isn't going to be able to. It requires money. The tuition assistance generally covers half the cost, leaving parents with $3-4,000 per kid to cover. That's alot of money.

My town only has a Catholic hospital. 60 miles away is another Catholic hospital, and a private hospital. That's all. I can't get medical care. My son has a herniated disc and can't get medical care. It amazes me that people think because a religion is connected to an institution that they automatically serve all the poor. They don't. Not even the Catholic institutions. They run much like any other institution. If Catholic hospitals and schools served all the poor, we wouldn't have a medical or education crisis.

[bettyellen]

147. don't i know it, my parents somehow paid for 6 of us, at points

simultaneously one one crappy wage. the altenative was grade schools with metal detectors, so dad worked 60 hour weeks and they scrimped on everything else. getting us schooled properly was a priority, and we didn't screw up because we knew the cost. catholic hospitals serve the poor in the same way public hospitals do (except a fuckload more efficently) , not well enough.
you ain't suggesting the catholics take over more of what the govt should be doing? or just bitter that some people can and do scrape together the money? i'm not talking about this Long Island community per se, but where i can from, many were scraping by.

[sandnsea]

149. This is not MY problem

It's the problem of the rest of the people in the thread. They're the ones who are all rah rah for the principal making the bad rich people stop spending their money. Not me. I am not bitter. I just think this principal is a manipulative liar. He went to work at a school where the parents have money. He is benefiting from their money. Why is he shocked when they spend it on their kids. I don't think it's about the money AT ALL, I think the principal is using it to guilt trip the parents when what he really wants to do is stop the sex. I'm just saying if the principal cares about the opulence, maybe he needs to go to a different school, like maybe the one you went to. But I bet you wouldn't find him making the sacrifices he wants everybody else to make... because that isn't what he's about.

[bettyellen]

151. well, i think he's trying to make a point that they ain't above

the whole catholic thing anymore than anyone else. i disn't see it was more about sex than the booze, but if you insist on thinking he should be pro-sex, whatever. LOL.
i bet he thinks a lot of these people are cafeteria catholics and they don't wanna know/ see what their kids are doing. weekend houses and booze cruises is flaunting illicit behaviour for underage kids- let alone how the church feels about it, it's illegal.
flaunting anything doesn't go over well in a catholic school. they have to make an example of you. as far as discipline goes, this is mild.
as much as i don't agree with the whole catholic program- never did- i think he's upholding the school's principles. kids get tossed out if they are caught with drugs or getting pregnant, etc. so they're trying to prebent that. it is a catholic school. that's the trade off. it's a cheaper alternative to most private schools.

[sandnsea]

152. cafeteria catholics, there you go

The principal wants to implement a more rigid, right wing brand. If it's about morality, he ought to say so. But knowing Catholics, he wouldn't get very far, so he's concocting this whole opulent line of nonsense. I'm sure the school has strict rules about behavior, so enforce them. Don't make a hypocritical hoopla over the decadence of prom.

[bettyellen]

154. i see all the issues as tied in $$$$ boozin and sex are all lifestyle

choice they don't want to see anyone support for their kids. it is puritan to me, but i accept that's what they are about. i think that they're making it clear to the parents that they can't or shouldn't stick their heads in the ground. i just don't know how many parents are that naive, but i guess some are. my mom was pretty naive. she thought it was nice i was going out dancing when i was going to nortorious after hour clubs where i coulda got in a lot of trouble.. go figure, she thought going dancing meant the same thing as it did when she was young. but she was pretty wise about went on in high schools.
as far as hipocrasy goes, it'd the same institutuionized bullshit that exists in most workplaces or with the justice system- the blatant flouters (flaunters) are going to get slapped down first. that's just the law of the jungle.

[sandnsea]

157. I'm sure these parents know what goes on

If the principal wants to make morals an issue, then he should just make it an issue and quit playing hypocritical games about these parents' money when he's more than willing to benefit from that same money himself. Go teach in a poor school, if he's so concerned about the poor.

[WinkyDink]

16. I'm a former public school teacher.

I say, get the schools out of the business of providing a social life for students.
Yes, they can have their own parties. That is my point. Go ahead; live it up. But don't do it piggy-backing on a school-sponsored event for a cover of legitimacy or probity.
We are decadent; I'd say elements in the world hate us for this, not "our freedoms".
So it seems perfectly appropriate for a school founded on moral principles to take steps to uphold them.
It isn't the SCHOOL that ought to consider change (e.g., to its tuition charges); it's the PARENTS and STUDENTS. You don't like the new rules? Hey, there's a public school down the street.

[lumpy]

26. Good post

I agree

[AngryOldDem]

39. Amen n/t

[FrankX]

96. I agree. Great post.

[Theres-a]

104. Yes,yes,yes and YES!

[Zynx]

115. Good post. I approve.

[noamnety]

135. GREAT post

I'm a public school teacher as well. And I also don't understand why schools sponsor social events with no academically redeeming qualities. The two dances I went to involved a lot of behavior that's against our school policy - but I guess at a dance it's suddenly acceptable for some reason.

I refuse to chaperon any dances now because I don't care to see the kids rubbing their genitals against each other. I understand that's how they dance, and if they want to do it at a club, great, go for it. But it's not part of my job description to have to deal with that. In any other professional setting, being forced to watch that while I'm on the job would be considered sexual harassment.

It's not a matter of judging what the students are doing, I'm not interested in being the butt-grinding police, but it's absurd that the school puts itself in the position of hosting an event like that.

My own kid opted to skip her prom last year, and she and a friend went to Chicago and house sat for a friend of the family. For less money than a ticket and a dress to a dance that lasts a few hours, they were able to spend an entire weekend exploring a city as adults - and I was a lot less concerned about them getting into trouble than I would have been if they'd been at a prom party.

They went to museums, they did enough people watching to learn the difference between how people react to a homeless looking guy asking for directions, versus how people react to two young girls asking for directions. (The homeless guy was begging people to tell him how to get to a hospital to see a relative, he was saying "I don't want your money, I just need help with the bus map" but nobody would even make eye contact with him. When my two took his map to look at it, even though they didn't ask others for help, well dressed people approached them and asked where they were trying to go, whipped out their cell phones to make calls to find out the best way to go, etc.)

That's pretty far off topic, but my point is that for the same amount of money, there actually are memorable, educational experiences that are equally fun, but have a better message than blowing a ton of money on ... on a big senseless party, on a night of drinking, on putting on a great show of being romantic because society says you are supposed to find a guy and make out with him on a certain night.

The only thing I would have done differently perhaps is pushed for an alternative to the prom, instead of nothing. Helping clean up after Katrina, for instance - a giant road trip to help clean up, with a social activity planned during one of the nights they are there - or asking for a dress down prom with the money saved being donated to various charities, and they could track how much was raised. That way the kids would get a dance if they want, but would have attached it to some Christian values at the same time, and would have felt more like they were contributing to something important rather than just being deprived of something.

[fasttense]

17. Spoiled rich kids learning that not everyone admires conspicuous

consumption taken to the extreme. Reminds me of the 1920's (just before the depression), all those ubber wealthy spending and buying cars, mansions, vacations, and jewelry while hundreds of thousands starved. Ahhh to be rich and blind to the suffering of the rest of humanity.

[Delphinus]

21. I don't know how that would feel ...

Ahhh to be rich and blind to the suffering of the rest of humanity. One of the many dangers of being awake and aware in this world.

[no_hypocrisy]

18. This is a very courageous act, even if it is symbolic.

The event of a prom is dividing students unnecessarily. It started with renting limos instead of parents driving the kids to the prom. Then it was getting expensive designer clothes instead of party dresses and powder-blue prom tuxes (the latter I don't mind banishing). And renting houses instead of the kids driving to the shore after the prom to watch the sun rise and eat breakfast in a diner. A typical prom can be the price of a mini-wedding and don't think the kids aren't appraising the value of their compatriots and forming indelible opinions as a result, because they are.

When I went to high school, we divided ourselves into cliques, it was due to specialized interests like sports, cheerleaders, "drugs", etc., not money or what our fathers did in the office.

I hate the idea of the kids imitating their folks or rather, their folks trying to "one up" the other parents with flashy displays by using their children. One can't limit how much a kid can spend for a prom; it isn't practical. I'm ambivalent about the cancelation only because it makes a point to the parents at the expense of the kids. However, I do like the gesture and it does send a message to reconsider promoting the prom as a more universal event.

[RamblingRose]

22. Will they still have the trip to Aruba? n/t

[bleedingheart]

25. Their CEO fathers are cutting people's pensions but renting pleasure boats

for their children....

I think they should let them continue with their decadence...why not...maybe if enough people see the contrast between their lives and that of the CEO's and upper level executives...they might just think about why they shouldn't accept more cuts to their pensions.

[William Bloode]

28. Damn that will crimp the activities of kids like i was.

Kids in my group found the rich kids parties so we could steal their spinners on their wheels, and their stereos. Not to mention the instances of outright extortion.

[Sanity Claws]

29. Avarice, gluttony, and envy are deadly sins

according to the Catholic Church. It's pretty hard for that message to take hold when a Catholic school is in effect encouraging proms that cost parents thousands of dollars and the kids are encouraged to outdo each other in celebrations.

[Javaman]

30. "Laine said just before hopping into his jet-black Infiniti...

and driving off to meet friends for an after-school snack."

I think that sentance says it all.

[NashVegas]

56. More Than You Might Think

That was coming from one of the seniors who didn't seem to mind the prom being canceled, and its reasons.

[Javaman]

89. Probably because he has a job with daddies firm...

He's moved beyond the highschool set and is on to dating models. Life is tough in the fast lane, huh?

[SoCalDem]

32. There was a time...

My high school prom (and millions of proms just like it)

The gym was decorated by the Sophomores, with the guidance of the art department and the drama & stagecraft kids...according to a theme.

Parents and teacher-volunteers manned the punch table, a hired photographer took pictures for a few bucks..

Girls bought a nice dress, but nothing outrageous.. Guys rented a tux..

Once you LEFT the prom, you were not allowed back in..Once the prom ended, kids usually congregated elsewhere, after changing back into "regular clothes".. The Armory usually had a "lock-in " all night post-prom party (extrememly well chaperoned)..

There were other non chaperoned parties, so the Armory party was always a last resort, but most ended up there after a while..

I don;t know why Prom has morphed into such a huge deal.. It's kind of sad really..

[Hardrada]

58. My high school had its prom in March (in Iowa)

to avoid any "questionable hanky panky." It sure worked. It was snowing of course. And when we finally got to the gymn (Moon River Theme) my date said her pastor was opposed to dancing. It was also so cold I wore long johns under my Sunday suit and itched but didn't dare itch in public. Anyone have a worse prom?

[AngryOldDem]

37. I also applaud him

Sure, kids (and parents) are gonna do what kids (and parents) are gonna do. The story I saw said that already parents are working together to put on a prom independent from the school. I honestly wish I had that much money (and free time) on my hands.

If parents want to provide the beer and the beds so their kids can get "experience" before they leave for college, that is their issue. The school cannot dictate what they do on their own time. But it does not have to put its imprimatur on it.

Also, these proms where kids spend upwards of the GNP of a small country fly in the face of almost EVERY tenet of Catholic Social Teaching, as well as basics of the faith, which is what this school is also charged to impart to its students.

The principal is right on with his stance, IMHO.

[Javaman]

41. I can see it now...

In about a year or two, there will be a "prom committee" consisting of several bored spouses who need to feel important. They will run it like a gulag. Holding complete and total control over the festivities. That's when the problems will begin.

Proms are now taking on the quality of outrageous weddings. Weddings are now a multi-million dollar industry. Just wait for it. As more and more people start having "private" proms, the wedding industry, already set up to put together parties, will happily jump into this fray without hesitation. I see this as the beginning of something big and very scary. If those of you out there see this as an opportunity to make money off these rich assholes, as I do, then party on!

I will never hesitate to make money from other peoples needless stupidity. Especially if they are rich. I look at the money I make off of them (video taping their weddings) as funding the future revolution. :)

[fhqwhgads]

40. good for him...

...although my reptilian brain thinks they should have put these kids on a booze cruise, then sunk the boat. as it is, my reptilian brain will settle for a carful of brats driving their hummer into an embankment.

sorry...to quote toby ziegler (of west wing fame), "i have hatred in my heart."

[Julius Civitatus]

42. Agree with the reasons. Maybe canceling was too much

I absolutely agree with the reasons the principal stated. These very wealthy folks have turned their HS prom into some sort of Roman bacchanal. I'm even more disgusted at the attitude of those parents that are chartering boats and putting down $10k for the prom parties of their spoiled brats. It's becoming very common for some immature "nouveau rich" people to go all out in their kid's promenades, bar-mitzvahs, and "sweet 16's." It's sickening.

Nevertheless, canceling the event was a bit radical. In my opinion, he should have allowed the prom, but proposing a series of standards and limitations. A strict series of rules to follow, in order to get this thing under control. Probably an unpopular measure, but more rational that just canceling.

I do agree these "rites of passage" are becoming RIDICULOUS, and the parents are usually more guilty than their kids. It reminds me of those hockey dads that fights other parents in their children's hockey games.

Some people need to grow the f*ck up!

:eyes:

[progressivebydesign]

43. I support the decision. Shame on the parents and kids that forced this.

We live in a moderately affluent area. Already in jr. high, there were parents renting limos for 8th grade dances, birthday parties in expensive restaurants for 7th graders and all their friends. Every single event around here warrants a shopping binge at Nordstroms.

I think it's a great idea for the parents, who have mentioned it, to hold their own prom or party if conspicuous consumption is their bag. Hey, I applaud the principal. at least someone is showing some Christian values there. Perhaps they can bring back the dance in another form next year. Just a dance at the school on a weeknight? What is wrong with the parents? Are they so hollow inside that all they can do is throw money at their children constantly? Are they so lacking in self esteem that they have to buy their children's happiness to assauge their own shortcomings? Cuz.. that kind of spending does NOT buy happiness for your teens. It invites misery.

[dapper]

44. Some of you are off base

Some of you are making assumptions based on the article. Spoiled rich kids?

Renting a house in the Hamptons was popular too when I went to my prom 18 years ago. I had other plans, we went into NYC- went to some night clubs, dance, we had a ball. We woke up the next day at 7am and drove to Great Adventure and came home that day exhausted as all hell. :-)

Two of my closest friends went to Kellenberg, both did not come from well to do families but they still managed to do basically the same as me... even poor kids can drink and have sex!

$6,000 for a private school too much for you? Gosh, it costs me almost $10,000 per year for day care! and I'm not rich either. In the state my sister lives it costs $6000 for day care.

It's a private school, they can basically make the rules. And I will agree,if my school cancelled the prom, you better believe us "kids" would have tried to host one of our own. It is a right of passage.

Dapper

[acmavm]

50. It is a right of passage. NO, it's a rite of passage (maybe).

It's not anybody's right to turn what is supposed to be a school event, on of fraternity and friendship and school spirit into a greedfest of gluttony and alcohol for kids who aren't even legally old enough to be drinking.

[lynne]

60. We need to cancel ALL proms, then -

- not just this one as the prom and drinking go hand-in-hand and has for as long as I can remember. The same can be said for the fall Homecoming.

As long as the drinking, gluttony, greed and whatever other sins the kids may think of are NOT performed on school property, it is not the principal or the schools business. Our local high school hosts an alternative "after prom" party where there is no liquor. Possibly they should consider something like that.

[dapper]

78. Re: "It is a right of passage. NO, it's a rite of passage (maybe)."

Why not cancel all High School events? You know at any dance there is bound to be a few bad apples who drink, have sex, do drugs..etc.

The young adults may also drink at graduation parties! Do we cancel those as well? Hell, (no pun intended) I've seen a good many kids who are drinking soda when their parents are almost falling down drunk.

There was a movie with Kevin Bacon (I hope I spelled the name right, I'd hate to have the spelling police come after me)... The movie was called "Footloose". Perhaps some of you can rent it and see the similarities.

Dapper.

[Realityhack]

127. A few bad apples?

It sure doesn't sound like that was the story.

Besides if that private religious school wants to not sponsor dances who the heck are we to tell them they should?

[northzax]

51. true, if people with the disposable income

want to do things like rent 10 grand houses for a weekend. the problem is when the pressure buids on people who can't really afford it to keep up with the joneses.

[kath]

47. wow - "a 2,000-word letter". It sounds like Brother Hoagland had quite

a lot to say on the matter. It would be interesting to read the whole thing in order to put the little sound bytes that CNN used into context.
I wonder if he said anything about the social teachings of Christ, such as reaching out to "these, the least of my brothers", etc.

I wonder how much money the parents who rent the houses, boats, and limos donate to the poor each year... I'd bet that Brother Hoagland is concerned about this too - good for him!

[Bridget Burke]

59. The Prom Letters are at the bottom of the School's web page.........

There are two of them!

www.kellenberg.org/index.html

Doesn't appear to be a particularly snooty school. And the curriculum is pretty serious.

[kath]

76. Thanks much! I'll go check it out. n/t

[itcfish]

48. This is Just Too Much. LOL

This is my daughter's high school. LOL Didnt know the incident was that important.

[sandnsea]

66. Are you dictating your posts?

Afraid you'll break your nails if you type them yourself? Didn't think so. :)

It's ludicrous to me to expect people who can afford to pay tuition for their kids to not pay for the extravagant proms, and I could barely afford my daughter's prom dress for public school prom. But my niece, who went to private Baptist school, they went to Las Vegas for their senior trip. From Arkansas. So yeah, I know things are a little more over the top these days, but why punish your kids when that's what everyone in that situation is doing. If the principle doesn't like it, figure out how to make the school a place for poor kids. Otherwise he's being a hypocrite. Don't expect your kids to make sacrifices the principle isn't making himself.

[Raster]

128. What!!! The senior trip for your neice who went to a private Baptist

school was Las Vegas? A senior trip was to Las Vegas??? A Baptist senior trip was to Las Vegas?

[sandnsea]

143. Yes

That's why I'm not buying this opulence nonsense. That's what is going on in private schools these days. My kids go to public schools and we work hard to keep the eight grade graduation party down every single year. The senior graduation party is an all nighter that costs $1-200 per kid. On prom night, a few parents just open their homes, we live on the coast so there's no need to do the whole rental thing. This is just not that far out of the norm. Bizarre as it may seem. If this guy cared about the opulence, he'd implement some sort of community service program. But he's not, he's cancelling prom. (psst, because of all the wild sex!)

[Raster]

146. Well first of all, I am blown away that any baptist institution would

schedule a trip, and one especially for kids, to Las Vegas. What did they do, hang out in the casinos and get blackjack tips from the regulars? Or maybe they wanted to stroll downtown through old Vegas and check out what the hookers are wearing this year? Oh, I know, it's probably those $100 a plate dinners at the Bellagio...

That said, I can see the principal's point. I also have to ask, the limos, the boats, the thousand dollar rentals...who's it for, the kids or the parent's egos?

[sandnsea]

148. No, none of that stuff

There's lots for kids to do in Vegas, as I'm sure you know. But I was rather surprised about it myself, to tell you the truth. It's one of those things where the inside of your head spins around, but outside you say "oh how cool is that". Much to my surprise, my niece has turned out to be a well balanced and sensitive person, even though she was raised much like the kids in that article.

As to the principal, I read the first letter from last year. It is very different in tone and substance than the one where he claims it's all about the opulence this year. I just don't buy it, it's about the sex, not the display of money. IMO.

[Raster]

163. Just my opinion here, but I see NOTHING cool about a school taking

their trip to Vegas. I have been many, many times. Vegas exists to separate you from your money. It's not called the City of Lost Wages for nothing. And yes, I know all about the entertainment options. Vegas does rock, but it's not a place for kids. My opinion. That said...

if it's about the sex, then SCREW HIM.

[sandnsea]

166. or, "oh, how nice"

That's what you say when a Baptist mother tells you her daughter's going to Vegas and you're the don't go to church and think all religion is fucked sister. :)

[lynne]

52. This is only the beginning of this story -

- and we need to recheck it come spring as I bet you that they WILL have a prom.

This is an affluent section of the country and it is a private school. No doubt the tuition is Big Bucks. The principal doesn't seem to mind collecting his salary via the purses of those affluent parents and I imagine that an affluent parent or two of heartbroken senior girls who have planned for their senior prom since they was 6 years old will let him know that, too.

A few parental donors threaten to pull $$$ support . . . A memorial building promised begins to look shakey . . . Parents with underclass children find another private school and I bet you that the principal "reconsiders".

This could have been handled much better by the principal had he combined the prom with some sort of fundraising venture for homeless or hurricane victims or some other charity and have the funds that would have gone into excess partying go into those charities. But he chose to pull a power play.

Or tried to. He will cave because he is tied to the parents via THEIR wallets. I just bet.

[athenap]

54. A Bold Statement

One I'm conflicted on supporting. I looked forward to my junior prom, even though I wasn't one of the cool kids. I had my circle of friends, and we wanted to get gussied up and go all-night bowling in formal wear afterwards. But then again, we went to a middle-class public school, and to a (wo)man, our parents would have laughed themselves silly (and then maybe slapped us silly) if we'd asked them to spend more than 200 bucks on the whole night--prom tickets, dress/tux, pictures, transportation (we all pitched in and divided a one-way limo ride between six of us), and incidentals. By the time senior year rolled around, most of us had wised up and chose to spend our money and the "big night" on dinner at a better restaurant and a trip downtown just to walk around.

But just canceling the prom doesn't seem to do much except make the rich kids and rich mommas and daddies mad. What I would have done is doubled the price of admission (or instituted an admission price if one didn't already exist--we had to sell raffle tickets to cover our admission costs) and be very vocal about donating the extra to a charity--force the kids into picking a charity, researching it, and voting on whether or not to donate their money to it. Make 'em work for it. But then, I'm now a Darth Mommy in my thirties, with no sympathy for teenagers.

[Seabiscuit]

55. Good for him, and shame on those parents. n/t

[Xithras]

57. Good for him.

My prom was a fairly low-key affair, but I was surprised when my cousin recently graduated and I saw what proms had become today. $1,800 dresses, $150 a head admission prices with admission prices of up to $500 for some of the after parties, $50,000 affairs with professional catering, laser light shows, and multiple DJ's, and "sets" created by professional production designers imported from LA. It was a friggin high dollar rave where the poor didn't even need to bother showing up. If you didn't have cash to party, you weren't welcome. AND THIS WAS AT A PUBLIC HIGH SCHOOL!!! They lived in a more expensive neighborhood, but still...that's just incredibly stupid.

Prom isn't what is used to be, and if this Catholic high school was anything like my cousins public school, I can't blame him one bit for toning it down.

[Dulcinea]

61. This is one area where privatization is the way to go!

If parents want to waste money on a lavish prom, let 'em. Why should the school have anything to do with it? And, as was stated upthread, a few parents with not enough to do will take full control, & it will become a huge mess.

Bring it on.

[Patiod]

67. Good for him. This is liberal Catholocism at its best

I came of age in a Catholic Church that held midnight peace vigils against the Vietnam War. I used to use St. Joe's University's "food library", which had a very specialized collection I needed (pre-internet). There was a mural on the wall of hungry people, and it showed Jesus commanding us to feed the hungry.

Beatitudes. The rich guy and the eye of the needle. Sheeps and Goats. THAT'S the Catholic Church this guy seems to represent. NOT the money-grubbing Calvinist money=character, Greed is Good values I see on "Christian" TV.

Good for him. If parents pay to send their kids to Friends School, they expect Quaker values (whether they're Jewish or Protestant or whatever). If they send their kids to Catholic School, they expect Catholic values. (And $6K is the low end for private school).

Our prom was pretty normal, but a few classes after us, one of the boys whose father owned a sports team arrived in a helicoptor. (This is the same school where someone in my class had the band "Chicago" play at his bar mitzvah, the year "Saturday in the Park" was a hit). I can't even imagine what the kids are up to now.

[malaise]

74. It's none of his business

what the kids do after the prom particularly since they are already graduates of the school. The parents aren't spending his money and the school does not have parental authority. Fuck him. If the parents are affluent and choose to waste their money it is not his business. Who gave him this authority.

Sure anyone has the right to make a passing comment about conspicuous consumption but he has stepped way out of his bounds.

[alphadog]

77. I don't even know where to start...

with all the inaccurate statements in your post, so I'll just pick a few...

"...what the kids do after the prom particularly since they are already graduates of the school?"

On Long Island, proms are usually held well before graduation. Usually in May, graduations are usually in June.

"...the school does not have parental authority."

He never claimed it did. What it may have though is legal liability . What he claimed is that he school didn't want to be affiliated with this kind of behavior.

"If the parents are affluent and choose to waste their money it is not his business."

Well, actually it is, since he's charged with teaching Catholic ethics to the students, and the affluent wasting money would be considered a serious sin.

"Who gave him this authority. "

Well, first off, those who made him principal of the school. Then there's the parents who sent their kids to a private Catholic school where one could guess that Catholic social and moral teaching would be put into action.

[malaise]

92. Having spent ages 3 - 17 in catholic schools

I know well that he would have had no problem if those parents had signed over all the money to the school or church. I maintain it is none of his business how parents spend their money.
I don't waste money and I would not encourage that sort of conspicuous consumption for teenagers but I would not tell any other parent how to spend their money. It is entirely up to the parents and is not the principal's business.

It hardly matters whether they're in school for another month.
Sorry that's my take.

[Realityhack]

132. But he didn't make it his buissness

he just said the school was not going to sponsor the activity. IIRC he never said he would suspend students whos fathers bought them a yacht or anything. He chose to have the school not sponsor an activity that he felt was becoming a center of activity that the school did not aprove of.

[madmark]

88. I agree with the sentiment; He can think or say that he doesn't

like the way these kids spend their own money all he wants, but to use his official capacity to punish kids for their private behavior that he doesn't approve of is bullsh*t.

[rinsd]

93. Prom is commonly before Graduation.....

...in fact one of the possible consequences of being drunk at prom is not getting to walk in graduation.

"Free Donna Martin!"

[hickman1937]

75. Wouldn't this be a litigation nightmare?

If the school was known to let drunk kids into, and then leave, a school sponsored event? Especially if it results in a death? Thats aside from the fact of a religious school hosting what amounts to a million dollar orgy.

[lynne]

79. I didn't read where drunk kids were let into the prom. -

- I can't imagine any school allowing a student they knew was drinking into a prom. And the litigation nightmare for them is no more or less than for any other school that holds a prom or other event. Where there is a prom or homecoming or football game - there is liquor either before or afterwards.

[kath]

94. Read the letter - points 8 and 9 deal with liability issues.

http://www.kellenberg.org/

[MountainLaurel]

82. I second that applause

:applause:

[neuvocat]

84. Third.

These kids have gone through high school and while I know that it can be a hard time, its still inappropriate right now.

[madmark]

85. The guy is a dick and is angry that the kids are spending a lot of their

money on things he apparently does not approve. He is entitled to his opinion, but using his official position to penalize them for it is an abuse. People need to start minding their own damn business and that applies to a whole host of issues, not just this one.

[FrankX]

100. No school participation, or liablity.

[Realityhack]

131. If they let drunk kids in there could be.

If the school allows underage students who are drunk in or especialy allows them to leave there could be liability.

[Realityhack]

130. How is that an abuse?

This is a private religious school. Don't they have a right not to chose to sponsor an activity that they beleive is leading to moral corruption of their students.

If these people do not want to have his opinion (or that of whatever church) imposed upon them... then they should chose a diffrent school.

[RobinA]

134. He's Not Using His Position

to punish kids, he is refusing to sponsor and activity that doesn't go along with the mission of the school. The prom is not a god given right (or rite), it's a social event that the school can cancel for any reason or no reason.

[ernstbass]

87. How refreshing

A man willing to take a stand against financial decadence. I applaud him!! (I was a wild child and was grounded at the time my prom was held)

[dapper]

91. Y'all need to watch FOOTLOOSE

Go Rent Footloose.

'nuff said.

[sandnsea]

102. The principal watched "American Pie"

Thus his outrage. It's in the letters at the school web site. This opulence rhetoric is a sideshow, the principal is going puritanical and I'm amazed at how many people are buying into his game. You don't become a principal at a private school and suddenly become shocked, I tell you shocked, that parents spend money on their kids.

[kath]

111. He said the overspending and everything else was getting worse year after

year.
In terms of the sex issue, it should be no surprise to anyone that a Catholic school is going to be against premarital sex. duh.

[Realityhack]

129. Sandnsea - Why does it matter to you if its about sex?

First off I don't think it is strictly about sex there was a lot more to both letters than that. But lets assume it is for the moment.

Why shouldn't the principle of a *religious* private school be able to chose to not have the school sponsor an even that he feels is surounded by things that school teaches are wrong?

Allowing that it is about sex (which, again, for the record I do not beleive) what is in any way wrong with this?

[sandnsea]

165. Because he's LYING

He is a right wing puritanical asshole who went off the deep-end about his imaginations of wild sex orgies and when the parents objected, repackaged his right wing bullshit in a new "it's all about the poverty" package. All he's trying to do is shove everybody into a rigid little 1950's sexually repressive box. I cannot stand hypocrites. He's hiding his agenda behind an important issue. Again, if it was all about poverty and extravagance, he'd implement a community service project, not cancel prom.

[Realityhack]

185. So what if its puritanical and backwards?

Its a private RELIGIOUS school. They have every right to be puritanical and backwards if they chose to be.

The principle is not expelling students that have sex... just chosing not to sponsor an activity that he feels promotes it.

Furthermore even in the first letter there was mention of other motivations besides sex and I seem to remember something about a hocky team. I remain unconvinced this is all about sex... but if it is... why do you see it as wrong?

BTW he is a minister. I seriously doubt he is all that hypocritical when it comes to decident displays of wealth. My guess is he has been involved in some service prodjects and sees this act as a service to the comunity.

I still don't follow why you care if the principle of a private RELIGIOUS school is puritanical. They probobly have a rule about skirt length too.... you going to go over the deep end about that too?

As for your other post about looking up skirts or whatever... there are laws against that. There is as far as I know no law requireing a school to have a prom.

[kath]

90. READ THE LETTER, people. It clearly lays out his position, which

is mainly that the school does not wish to sponsor an activity which is no longer "a fit vehicle for the educational values of the school". A similar thing happened to the hockey parogram.

The letter mentions the capital sins of vanity, avarice and greed, and how the conspicuous consumption and one-upmanship surrounding prom in the Long Island culture involves these sins.

Speaking of hockey, point #17, concerning school activities as a complement to the school's academic program and overall goals and specifically describing SPORTS (and what they can degenerate into, through their use by coaches, parents or administration) is a doozie:

"A school establishes its academic profile to fit the goals for which the school is founded. The academic profile is complemented by an activity profile. It is through these activities that adolescents learn skills that the academic profile does not give - such as self-reliance, cooperation, loyalty, affective relationships, social consciousness, personal performance, etc. For example, physical sports or athletics are introduced into the school program, not because we are in the entertainment business or because parents want to relive their adolescence through their own children, or because the administration is a bunch of frustrated all-Americans, but because these activities, natural to adolescents, can be a powerful vehicle for attaining the affective goals of the school. The athletic
activity itself, like the senior prom, is prone to distortion. Sometimes the sport itself degenerates into a physical activity that has little to do with education. And sometimes the legitimate athletic activity is distorted through its use by coaches, parents, or school administration. The conduct of the sport is no longer governed by the educational needs of the students, but by the ego-needs of the adults. Such was our experience with hockey. After repeated attempts, we admitted defeat on two counts: the sport itself kept degenerating into physical mayhem, while the parental role and conduct of the parents was primitive. It no longer was a fit vehicle for the educational goals of the school. And so, KMHS no longer sponsored a hockey program. Hockey still exists and a number of KMHS students may play hockey, but we do not consider it a proper vehicle for education."

More good quotes:
"Aside from the bacchanalian aspects of the prom - alcohol/sex/drugs - there is a root problem for all this and it is affluence. Affluence changes people. Too much money is not good for the soul. Our young people have too much money. Sounds simple, but it is true. When Jesus said that it was very hard for a rich man to enter the kingdom of heaven, it shocked his hearers and it still shocks us. Wealth is powerful, not only in terms of possessions, but in being possessed by it. Wealth changes personalities, priorities, principles. The prom has become the occasion of conspicuous consumption - from dress, to limosines, to entertainment."

"15) Wealth is a wonderful thing. It is a sharing in the fruits of God’s creation. Becoming a millionaire can be a spiritually enriching experience, provided you answer two questions correctly: how did you get it, and what are you doing with it. Was it gotten at
the expense a God, family, integrity, by shady deals, corporate ‘conspiracy, taking unfair advantage? And what are you doing with it (and what has it done to you and your family)?

16) I do not intend here to give a treatise on the capital sin of avarice or greed. Suffice it to recall St. Paul’s words: the lust for money is the root of all evil. How true! But we are concerned about how our young people are being educated in the use of wealth and the experience of power that wealth gives. A great deal of their future happiness or unhappiness, both human and spiritual, will be determined by their interaction with wealth or the desire for it. Most people think of sex and murder when they hear the word
morality. But there is a morality of money. The bad use of money or wealth in any form is immoral. Finally, we have begun (only) to become conscious of how we use our natural resources. There can be (and often has been) an immoral use of land, water, wildlife, and natural elements. Our Lordship over all creation is not without moral
consequences. As with time, so with wealth - we will be called to account for how we have used them. The current culture of the prom on Long Island does not represent to us a proper Christian use of wealth."

http://www.kellenberg.org/ (see "September prom letter")

[malaise]

95. Tell him to send this letter to

the GOP, the corporations financing Bushco and the chrisian coalition.

[FrankX]

97. The letter is great! Love it.

[malaise]

98. It is a great letter

now he must send it to Bushco. It is none of his business how parents spend their money. The parents are following their leaders.

[sandnsea]

103. Post the FIRST letter

Not the one concoted after parents got upset. He's using opulence to intimidate them into silence. THIS is what he said in his FIRST letter about the prom.

#3) It goes without saying that alcohol has always been a factor in the “Prom Experience,” often characterized by a post-prom “Booze Cruise” or a bar in the limo, etc.
-1-
This “rite of passage” also includes sex. Common parlance tells us that this is the time to lose one’s virginity (if it hadn’t occurred before). It is a time of heightened sexuality in a culture of anything goes. You are all acquainted with the sexual climate in which we live. Recently we had a nationally recognized speaker present to our student body the real consequences of adolescent
promiscuity - pregnancy, a variety of sexually transmitted diseases, etc. The prom has become a sexual focal point. This is supposed to be a dance, not a honeymoon."

At this juncture, I would recommend that you would investigate an ‘American classic’ that appeared in 1999. The title of the film is “American Pie.” It is almost a cult film, like “Animal House” before it. The plot features four male teenagers who make a pact to lose their virginity before graduation, and the locus is the Senior Prom. I would venture to say that all our Senior class has seen it. Like “Animal House,” which had an enormous impact on college dorm life, “American Pie” is a good example of nature imitating art - adolescent culture being formed and led by the media. If you hesitate to rent the film (which I do not recommend), you can get a fairly good idea by typing in “American Pie” on the Internet. You will get dozens of links.

[kath]

106. The first letter pointed out *several* objections to the "prom culture" on

Long Island, as does the second letter.

Here's the first:

Dear Parents,
The time has come!
For many years the idea and practice of a “Senior Prom” has gripped the imagination and expectation of every high school Senior. Originally, a college concept and ritual, it gradually filtered down to secondary schools, where in addition to a high school Senior Prom, there grew up a parallel Junior Prom. And from place to place you will even see an “Eighth Grade Prom.” One good turn deserves another!
But all is not fine in Prom Land. What started out as a formal Senior dance has become a recreational institution that has taken a life of its own. It has expanded in time and money, but
more importantly, it has taken on a sophistication that is far from what is expected in a Christian educational institution.
This change has been going on for a number of years. It has accelerated significantly over the past ten years, to the point where it is no longer even marginally compatible with Kellenberg Memorial’s philosophy of Christian education. In fact, we consider the current practice of the Senior Prom as practiced to be antithetic to what we are about.
What are the objections? We have to be frank, and not speak in abstract terms only.
Here is our experience.
#1) What was a single dance has become an exaggerated rite of passage that verges on decadence.
#2) Its cost is out of bounds - the least expensive is the bid - dress, limo, after-prom activities - often add up to over a $1,000.00.
#3) It goes without saying that alcohol has always been a factor in the “Prom Experience,” often characterized by a post-prom “Booze Cruise” or a bar in the limo, etc.
#4)This “rite of passage” also includes sex. Common parlance tells us that this is the time to lose one’s virginity (if it hadn’t occurred before). It is a time of heightened sexuality in a culture of anything goes. You are all acquainted with the sexual climate in which we live. Recently we had a nationally recognized speaker present to our student body the real consequences of adolescent
promiscuity - pregnancy, a variety of sexually transmitted diseases, etc. The prom has become a sexual focal point. This is supposed to be a dance, not a honeymoon.
#5)Peer pressure is always present in an adolescent society, but it reaches its apogee in “Prom Mania.” Who can top whom? What outrageous experiences can we boast about later? Who can outdo whom in dress, expense, behavior - adolescents need no encouragement in this area.
#6)This extravaganza verging on decadence is magnified by the ages involved. Many of these “Seniors” are under eighteen years of age. Their dates, both male and female, are often Juniors, frequently Sophomores, and occasionally Freshman. The current Prom culture is really out of their league.
You will get dozens of links. A particular critique of the film from the moral point of view can be gotten by:
http://www.plu~~edinonline.com/movies/movies/aOOOO453.cfm.]
Is there anything that has precipitated this concern at this time? Yes, there is.
We have in hand a signed contract for the rental of a residential house in Southampton. The details of this lease are as follows:
#1) It is a residential house in a residential area. The owner is leasing it for sixty
persons.
#2) The time of lease is from early Saturday morning to noon on Sunday, approximately thirty-six hours.

#3) The cost is $300.00 per student plus $100.00 for “security,” a total of $400.00 per student.
#4) No food or amenities are provided by the owner for the cost.
#5) A down payment of $10,000.00 has already been made, with the following amount of $10,000.00 to be paid by April 1 st. It seems that the total amount of money for the rental of this house is $20,000.00.
#6)There is no indication anywhere that there is any type of supervision. Nor is there any indication of responsibility for liability.
#7)Forty-six Seniors have already paid their down payment for this one particular “house.” They have received no rules or guidelines for these thirty-six hours. We are informed that there are other houses in the Southampton area that are rented under similar conditions.
What strikes us as a school staff in reviewing this data?
A) The cost is outrageous - the owner stands to gain almost $20,000.00 for a thirty-six hour rental. Quite a deal! It takes advantage of our students.
B) There is no indication of any type of supervision for this group of students, the majority of whom are under the age of eighteen. The students received no statement concerning the parameters of their conduct during this time. Conversations with the students involved indicate that they received no parameters and certainly expected alcohol to be present.
C) The signed rental agreement was just that - a rental agreement. It did not express any liability for the welfare of these students.
D) The parents received no written notification of what was transpiring during this time. Nor did they know to what extent there was going to be any supervision. Also, how do you supervise fifty or sixty students in one house for thirty-six hours?
We emphasize the question of liability because of our experience in the past. The Prom
is a school related event. Where does the Prom begin and end? The lines are not clear. It is
difficult enough to keep alcohol out of the limousines and out of the Prom itself without
assuming any responsibility for after-Prom activities.
What to do?
The Administration of Kellenberg Memorial High School experienced this problem some years ago with the Junior Prom which had escalated to an enormous expense of money and super-sophistication for students who were even younger. We suppressed that Prom and
substituted a Junior Ring Banquet. It still takes some effort to keep this from becoming an expensive extravaganza, but we have managed to do so.
The easiest solution would be to suppress the Senior Prom altogether, starting next year. Another solution, one that has been taken by some public schools, is to schedule the Prom on the Friday before Graduation, thus limiting the extension of post-Prom activities. The change of that Prom date will definitely be instituted next year, 2006, if the Prom is kept at all. We have
investigated changing the Prom date this year to the Friday before Graduation. That date was open for the caterer. However, because of deposits already made for limousine and transportation services, we decided to leave the arrangement as is this year, while we contemplate what to do for future years. At any event, Kellenberg Memorial High School does not want to be associated with or give support to the current Prom practice. By this letter we inform all the parents of what is going on, in case they are not aware of the details of Prom 2005, and by this letter we eschew any responsibility for post-Prom activities.
Sincerely yours,

[sandnsea]

108. With a focus on sex

Most of the complaints about opulence came in the second letter. This is how they slide to the right, by cloaking their real motives in whatever guilt-inducing topic that pushes peoples buttons.

[kath]

110. So I guess you can read the minds of the principal and administrators,

so you know what they REALLY meant, in spite of what the letters said.
It must be so nice to be clairvoyant.

So tell me, oh Clairvoyant One, why the school cancelled its hockey program. The 2nd letter said that it was because it had mutated (largely because of parents, apparently) into something that was no longer consistent with the school's values. Was that about sex, too? What was the REAL motive?

[sandnsea]

112. NO, I read the letters

And read his obsession with sex and drinking in the first letter. And read the article when they said they weren't hosting an "orgy". If the man is against opulent displays of affluence, he shouldn't be working at a private school for the affluent.

Is this the school where the girl was giving blow-jobs in the hockey lockerroom? I don't know.

[Realityhack]

126. Um... last time I checked drinking at that age was illigal.

Seems like the kind of thing a lot of teachers in both public and private schools would be upset by and conserned with. Frankly I support that.

As for your statement that:
> "If the man is against opulent displays of affluence, he shouldn't be working at a private school for the affluent. "
it is blatantly obvious that you have no concept of service. This is a prist. I hapen to be an athiest but if this guy wants to try to 'change lives' and choses to purposely try to do that in a climate that would not normaly be exposed to such a chalange... Why is that wrong? What is it exactly that you have against him?

[Realityhack]

125. Who cares? (edit - sorry was meant as a response to sandnsea )

First off I think you are wrong about that being the primary motivation... but who cares if it is?

So a catholic school doesn't feel like sponsoring an activity they beleive will lead to quite a bit of activity they find objectionable.

WHO CARES??? If these people can afford to drop $10,000 on prom night they can surely afford to have whatever party they want without the schools help. The school has simply chosen not to sponsor the event.

I fail to see the problem with that reguardless of wither it is sex or opulence or a religious objection to limo tires.

[sandnsea]

138. This is all too funny

And people wonder how the country lurched so far to the right. It's right here in this thread. Doesn't anybody remember last year when teachers at a CA school were lifting girls' skirts to check for thongs? It's all the same thing, back to the fifites. Pretty soon no school will have a prom and the people in this thread will wonder how the right wing managed that too.

[hickman1937]

150. I don't understand.

I read both letters, and so much of the second was about social justice that I suspected the writer of rebuking parents that voted for bush. The first did have references to pre-marital sex, but the Catholic Church is firmly against it. This is a Catholic school. Why would they look the other way. This is not a public, tax payer funded school. They have the right to demand whatever behavior within the law that they choose. No one is required to attend this school.

[sandnsea]

153. I guess I woke up in 1995

And the last 10 years of right wing manipulations and the slide to the right didn't happen. I don't know why I continue to be surprised at how easily they're able to advance their agenda.

[bettyellen]

155. if you think civil rights ever existed in catholic schools.

well then, you have no idea. this is nothin, they're not allowed to physically punish people anymore- so to me, a lot of progress has been made.

[sandnsea]

156. I didn't say anything about civil rights

The other poster did. Frankly, I thought it was too ridiculous to even respond to.

[bettyellen]

161. well, me too....

but that didn't stop me somehow.
:rofl:
oh gosh, it's late, so with that, goodnight!

[hickman1937]

159. This is a private school. They get to make their own rules.

Just as, on a much smaller scale, my home is a private home. If I choose to serve my 12yr old child a glass of wine on thanksgiving why should social services get involved? If I choose to make anyone coming into my house bow to me or remove their clothing, why should the ACLU get involved?

[sandnsea]

160. Who said anything about the ACLU?

Or civil rights? Or anything else of the sort. geez louise. I said you'd swear the right wing stealth actions of the last 10 years didn't happen by the responses on this thread. This is how they move the country to the right, and it's WITH the cooperation of Democrats.

[hickman1937]

162. I think , with your permission, we will have to agree to disagree.

I do not believe that anyone should be able to legislate morality. I do not believe that anyone has the right to tell me how I should bring up my children. What exactly is your point? No harm here, I just would like to understand.:shrug: :hi:

[sandnsea]

164. What are you talking about?

You are just making stuff up out of thin air. Who in the hell is talking about legislating morality??? Certainly not me. I object to the asshole at the Catholic school pretending he's concerned about the students displays of opulence when what he's really doing is judging their morality. He's the one passing his purtian sense of morality on to everybody, he's the one that thinks he can tell parents how much money to spend and on what, he's the one that thinks he can say who has sex and when and where, NOT ME. The parents who pay the tuition and HIS salary are the ones who set the standards for that school, not some throw back to the 1950's right wing principal. What the hell are you on my ass for?

[hickman1937]

167. Ok, you win. n/t

[sandnsea]

168. There's nothing to win

I never said anything about the ACLU or civil rights or legislation, I don't know what you're talking about so I can't possibly win anything.

[hickman1937]

170. My point is that you seem to feel that the principle of this school

does not have the right to impose his morality on the student body. I say he does. This is not a public school. It is a private school. You have the right to send your kids to any school you choose, but when you pick a private school, you do not have the right to dictate to that school what they should believe. I think buying into the right wing belief that nothing is private, everything is subject to what the powerful(Dem or repuke) decide, is morally bankrupt. If this guy doesn't want to put his stamp of approval on Prom night sex, drinking, and wild spending, thats his decision. It's a private school.

[sandnsea]

171. He doesn't have the moral right to lie

And that's what he's doing, pretending he's outraged about the extravagant spending when he's really gone off on a tangent about wild sex orgies. That was the tone and subtance of the first letter, "American Pie" moral decay. He certainly has a right to take it up with the parents, but he doesn't have a right to manipulate his position when those same parents object to his characterization of their children. You won't find a school in the country that doesn't have parties after prom, that's been going on before there even were proms. I think he's taking advantage of the current backlash against wealth to hide his real motivations, which is to end the prom because of his puritanical rigidity. He's certainly entitled to believe whatever he wants, just like I'm entitled to object to anybody who is trying to haul this country back to 1955. And so are the parents at that school.

[Bridget Burke]

173. Projection much?

Did you miss those "wild sex orgies" & want the vicarious thrill?

But you see the "hidden" motives. Hidden to everyone but you.

[sandnsea]

174. Must be his thrill

Those are his words, not mine. His motives aren't hidden at all, except to those who are jumping on his scorn for the rich bandwagon.

[Realityhack]

190. So were the hocky players having sex on the ice?

They canceled that program because they felt it was not promoting the shool values as well. How is it that you magicaly know the reason was ONLY about sex?

And seeing as BOTH letters fully and completely addmited that that was part of the reason how on earth is the principle a lier?

BTW you might note that he is a preist so calling him a hypocrite is a bit strange. Seems to me he probobly isn't promiscuous and probobly does not take weekends in $10,000 hampton rentals.

Do you actualy have any facts to back up your claims or are you just picking and chosing parts of the letters and assuming without any evidence that those are the only 'true' parts of the letters?

Why do you care anyway? If it is about sex a)it was disclosed as such and b)this private Religious school has every right to cancel on those grounds.

[kath]

187. sandnsea is clairvoyant, don'cha know? S/he KNOWS the

principal is LYING.

[Realityhack]

191. Yep... because he hid the fact that it was about sex... um wait...

actualy he admited that was one of the reasons in BOTH letters. He sited other reasons as well.

Hmmm... How the f*ck is this lying again?

[Realityhack]

186. Funny how the sex is #4 on the list

and he spends as much space talking about the $10,000 rental as he does american pie.

Funny how he says next year the will have a prom just on a date that will not invite quite as long post prom parties (plenty of time for sex though).

I think you are off base claiming his only motivation is sex. He certainly has many motivations. One is sex. He does not deny this he makes it quite clear.

Claming he is lying is therefore intelectualy dishonet.

[morgan2]

118. I went to a private school on Long Island

we used to play Kellenburg on sports. I think the insinuations that the poor kids aren't included in anything is ridiculous, at least from my experiences. I wasn't one of the really rich kids, around the middle for my school I would guess. People were included/excluded to parties based on who was friends with who, much more about looks than money. Rich kids are very generous with their money usually. Easy come easy go. Inviting their friends to do whatever with them they were doing and more than willing to pay. People shouldnt be punished for having money. I'd rather have rich people spending money they make then hording it.

[HockeyMom]

119. Proms on Long Island

Both my daughters went to public schools. My older daughter after the prom rented a limo and went into Manhattan with her friends to a Comedy Club, took a boat ride around the the City, and then went to the beach. This was 8 years ago. A LOT of the kids at the school either rented a place in the Hampton's or went down to the BAHAMAS for the weekend. We nixed BOTH of those ideas.

My younger daughter, who graduated 3 years ago, didn't go to the Prom at all. She didn't have a boyfriend, hated getting dressed up, and was selected to a National Hockey Camp the same week as the Prom. She choose the hockey.

If you want to go back to the STONE AGE, I did graduate from a Manhattan Catholic HS. I didn't go to my Prom, but went to the Prom of a boy I knew (Catholic School too). BORING, BORING, BORING. We rented a limo (yes, back in 1966) and also went to a high priced nightclub on Park Avenue(drinking was 18 back then). They drink and I didn't. The show was nice, but the rest of the night was a complete bore. The only thing I can say about the whole experience was that I went because I was supposed to. I was told "you will remember this for the rest of your life." Well, after 40 years, I don't. I have had far more memorable times in my life than Prom Night.

[proud2BlibKansan]

136. Good for him

This crap is getting out of control. There was an article in my local paper last year about a group of 8th graders who rented a limo to take them to their EIGHTH GRADE graduation!!

[The Backlash Cometh]

139. Thank you father Hoagland.

I've written before about the excesses of the Long Island suburbanite youth. There is a large imbalance between the money that we lose through investments in Wall Street and the high on the hog living of New Yorkers who particularly live on Long Island. I've seen that imbalance and I know of the arrogance of the New Yorkers who get excessive bonuses. Maybe it's time that they begin to live within our means.

[shayes51]

142. He did the right thing.

[dretceterini]

145. If you think

and of the parents or kids give a crap about what others think, you are out of your mind.

[Celeborn Skywalker]

169. Good for Hoagland.

FUCK those spoiled, rich, bastards.

[WinkyDink]

176. Fine. Let's call the principal a hypocrite and maybe even a liar,

regarding his latter emphasis on money. He STILL has the right, nay, the DUTY to uphold and enforce the teachings of his Church for his charges.

Oh, and he isn't being "Puritanical"; he's being Catholic. Historically, we don't get along. Hee.

[blindpig]

178. Good for him.

Besides the obvious rightness of his decision in accordance with the teachings which he holds sacred the whole prom scene is bogus. Back in my day, with my crowd at least, anything to do with adult supervision was looked upon with jaundiced eye. Thus no prom, no school ring, no graduation ceremony. I went snake hunting in Florida instead:evilgrin: and picked up that piece of paper some months later.

[zanne]

179. Does any church teach that greed is a sin?

Not being a religious person myself, I really don't know what's coming down from the pulpit on any given Sunday. I did go to a Catholic grammar school, however, and I remember that greed was not popular with the priests and nuns then. From what I can see from my limited viewpoint, greed is all the rage now and doesn't even merit a "tsk, tsk" from the politico-religious pundits. I have to tip my hat to this Catholic school principal, who apparently hasn't forgotten the Seven Deadly Sins.

[Zynx]

194. Main-line churches still denounce greed as they have for a long time.

However, people ignore it, just as they have for a long time. The Fundie churches spew crap that actually says Jesus supported Capitalism among other things.

[adigal]

180. All those rich Catholic republicans

are going to be mad their kiddies cannot show off all of their hard-earned bounty. Such as shame.

[LetsGoMurphys]

182. Jesuit I am guessing as well by the Brother before his name n/t

[kath]

188. Actually, he is a Marianist.

[kath]

189. The Marianists DO take a vow of poverty. When I googled "Society of Mary"

yesterday, the sites I went to weren't real informative. Found this one just now:

http://www.udayton.edu/~campmin/marianist/overview.htm#facts

"...I promise to God and vow to observe chastity, poverty, obedience, and stability, conformably to the Rule of Life of the Society of Mary."

[Verve]

184. Good for him! We live in a modest house in a semi-wealthy

neighborhood. Parochial schools are comparatively cheap here compared to other cities so we are fortunate to be able to afford to send our children to good one. Because many students do receive aid, it is as diverse as the public schools in our area. Because of a strict uniform code, all children look the same and therefore can't base friendships on wealth. (unlike the public schools)However, I still am challenged as to how to teach my children about the haves and have nots of the world.

Just recently, my husband saved up enough money to buy a used small plane. This was no small feat, it has been his life long dream to own a plane and he worked very hard to make his dream come true. However, it was a teaching moment when my 9 year old son told his wealthy friend that he can't wait to go flying with his dad. His friend replied "Oh, you'll just love it. My dad has his own jet, and we fly everywhere in it."

Needless to say, I'm trying to teach my children that keeping up with the Jones is not only not possible but it can make us feel miserable and less grateful for what we do have. Focus on what you do have and what you can accomplish is a good motto but you can become easily sidetracked.

[really annoyed]

193. I skipped my prom

And for many of the same reasons mentioned by Kenneth M. Hoagland.

However, I do remember some of my friends complaining about the "fancy" salad that was served! :D

[mitchum]

195. Cry me a fucking river, you spoiled brats