WP: Cheney's Office Focus in Leak Case

[Halliburton]

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2005/10/17/AR2005101701888.html
<snip>
As the investigation into the leak of a CIA agent's name hurtles to an apparent conclusion, special prosecutor Patrick J. Fitzgerald has zeroed in on the role of Vice President Cheney's office, according to lawyers familiar with the case and government officials. The prosecutor has assembled evidence that shows Cheney's long-running feud with the CIA contributed to the unmasking of operative Valerie Plame.

In grand jury sessions, including with New York Times reporter Judith Miller, Fitzgerald has pressed witnesses on what Cheney may have known about the effort to push back against ex-diplomat and Iraq war critic Joseph C. Wilson IV, including the leak of his wife's position at the CIA, Miller and others said. But Fitzgerald has focused more on the role of Cheney's top aides, including Chief of Staff I. Lewis "Scooter" Libby, lawyers involved in the case said.
<snip>

:wow:
:popcorn:

[janx]

1. MUSHROOM CLOUD...

Who could have guessed?

:rofl:

[lonestarnot]

131. Yeaya Baby.... I like the schrooms today!

[IndianaGreen]

2. Bush aides were part of a criminal campaign to punish Wilson

Another fine reporting piece by WAPO's Jim VandeHei and Walter Pincus, and several notches about the NY Times whitewash of Judy's saga.

:popcorn:

[savemefromdumbya]

39. Pincus is always in there when it is a big thing nt

nt

[htuttle]

3. Hope somebody grabs the keys to his escape capsule...

...before he rockets off to his undersea lair and we never see him again (until his next fiendish plot...).

[kestrel91316]

7. (that cat in your pic looks drugged, lol!)

[lavenderdiva]

133. I hate to sound ignorant, but please enlighten me as to who

is pictured in your post? Is he the real person on which the character of 'Dr. No' (Austin Powers fame) was based?

[htuttle]

136. That is Ernst Stavro Blofeld

The archetypal movie villian of Bond fame (played by Donald Pleasance in this case).

[usregimechange]

4. kick

[oioioi]

5. See Dick Run...

"Some lawyers close to the case cited courthouse talk that Fitzgerald might announce his findings as early as tomorrow, though hard evidence about his intentions and timing remained elusive."

[Halliburton]

6. it looks more and more like

Scooter's selling him out.

[DoYouEverWonder]

33. The Grand Jury meets on Wednesdays

and Fitzgerald said he would make his announcement from DC. Tomorrow is a safe assumption.

[grytpype]

8. Every day brings new revelations!

The second sweetest thing about the coming indictments is we are finally going to learn the whole story of how the Plame outing happened.

In THIS article, we learn that Undersecretary of State Marc Grossman went to a meeting at the White House where he may have presented a letter containing info about Plame. This was sometime after the SOTU, when the criticism about the "sixteen little words" had begun to arise. But the article does not pin down the exact date of the meeting, but the letter was prepared in June 2003.

That letter was recycled as the Ford Memorandum which was passed around on AF1 on July 7. But the article suggests that the White House may have learned about Plame's alleged involvement in June.

[GOTV]

129. Not necessarily

> The second sweetest thing about
> the coming indictments is we are
> finally going to learn the whole
> story of how the Plame outing happened.

Apparently Fitzgerald could bring no indictments and produce no report whatsoever.

I don't know if he would do that, but I understand he could.

[johnfunk]

9. Buh,bye, Big Time! Go Cheney yourself for what you've done to America!

BREAKING: Halliburton gets contract to rebuild Dick Cheney. (Stolen, I believe, from Bill Maher.)

[seattlemetal]

10. What if they made Cheney the fall guy?

what if they simply decided they had to cut Cheney loose in order to save the Brain(rove) so it could still run the body(Bush)?

I mean really....we know Cheney wasnt going to run for POTUS anyway, so he was likely to retire anyway and with his health, if he DID do time, it wouldnt be long(lmao) and they'd probably put him in a medical facility anyway....

then Rove/Bush could continue to take over the world!
(sounds like a cartoon I used to watch!lmao!)

[johnfunk]

12. Tomorrow's news today:

[i miss america]

145. Yeah baby! You know what the Constitution specifies as

the penalty during wartime

[oioioi]

14. Dick can run...

This makes sense.

Dick tried to set Karl up and they decided to hang Dick out to dry instead.

Hello VP McCain?

[expatriot]

23. McCain wouldn't take it for political reasons... think Condi.

McCain doesn't want the kiss of death from this administration before 2008.

Condi's whole bid, however, rides on the chance that "Bush" won't be a bad word in 2008, so being VP in his administration wouldn't hurt her.

[Dawgs]

38. Also, it allows the Republicans to put Black person in VP position...

This conspiracy is making sense... it's scary.

[OrangeCountyDemocrat]

15. Gee Brain....What Are We Going To Do Tomorrow Night?

The Same Thing We Do Every Night......TRY TO TAKE OVER THE WORLD!!

[OrangeCountyDemocrat]

16. If Cheney Goes Down....

Won't Shrub pardon him? And then, won't he be so incredibly damaged politically, that the repubs will have to cut him lose, and impeach him?

What if Shrub is listed as a un-indictible conspirator like tricky Dick?

[calimary]

126. And doesn't it also make sense that, assuming he'll get a pardon

from bush, cheney went ahead and bought that nice mansion in Maryland, so he wouldn't be far from where the action is, even though he APPEARS to have been rendered out-of-commission?

[Garbo 2004]

17. Wanna bet the possibility that Rover may have oops helped grease the skids

a bit for for Libby and Cheney? Seems entirely in character for him to do so IMO.

[oioioi]

20. In a nutshell...

Cheney was the source of the info re Wilson's wife working at CIA and communicated this to Rove and Judy via Libby.

Rove duly informs several reporters that Wilson was on a junket at the behest of his CIA wife, without realizing Plame was involved in investigations around problematic arms dealing, possibly implicating Cheney.

CIA cries foul, pressures Ashcroft to appoint Fitzgerald.

Fitzgerald goes after Rove intially and but all roads lead back to Libby/Cheney.

Libby cuts a deal to snitch on Cheney, thus allowing Judy out of jail to name him as the source.

Cheney goes down as the original source of the leak. Rove skates.

VP McCain soon to be sworn in, ready for unchallenged 08 bid.

Business as usual.

[ClintonTyree]

37. As horrible a scenario as can be imagined.......

I certainly wouldn't put it past them though. There's only one thing that drives this mob of miscreants and that's power. They will never give it up willingly and would eat their own to maintain it.
I really hope you're wrong but unfortunately you may very well be correct. :puke:

[oioioi]

41. hahaha - Karen's talking point!!!!

Undersecretary of State Karen Hughes, the Bush administration's public diplomacy chief and a longtime Bush confidante, said, however, that the White House was not distracted by the investigation. "It's not something that's affecting the daily business of the White House," Hughes said in a taped interview aired Tuesday on NBC's "Today" show. "It's business as usual."

http://www.cnn.com/2005/POLITICS/10/18/leakprobe.ap/

[janx]

134. That's a very comprehensive article.

It's just too bad it took them so long...

[GOTV]

130. This sounds...

... very credible.

[calimary]

Welcome to DU! I've been wondering that, myself.

Remember, after all, whose boy rove is. rove and dubya are joined at the hip. When push comes to shove, to whom do you think rove will remain loyal - dickie-boy? Not a chance. He's bush's baby. And he may have decided to stab cheney in the back to stanch the blood flow before it washes over george. Perhaps he's hoping if he throws cheney to the wolves, everyone will be satisfied gnawing on cheney's corpse while bush quietly slithers away and avoids facing the music. It wouldn't be the first time rove has gone the assassin's route to take out an enemy. And he IS, indeed, a senior White House official, is he not? One whose ass is in serious need of protection. And he came to the dance with bush, NOT cheney.

[Tight_rope]

137. Calimary, I just love the way you put it all together...

In another thread I posted the same thing..."They have got a senior cooperating witness"===>KKKarl Rove.

[woodsprite]

132. Pinky and the Brain! n/t

[MADem]

156. I think you are right on the mark

And George improves his standing, proving he does indeed like black people, by appointing toothy Condi to his job. Dick heads to his recently-purchased mansion in MD, and continues to work behind the scenes, doing the same thing they do every day.......trying to TAKE OVER THE WOOOOOOOOOORRRRRRRLLLLD!

[AlCzervik]

11. Oh dear, how unseemly!

i love it.

[99Pancakes]

13. Makes sense

That's what you get for serving the Religious Reich.

[Bumblebee]

18. This is intriguing

In a move people involved in the case read as a sign that the end is near, Fitzgerald's spokesman yesterday told the Associated Press that the prosecutor planned to announce his conclusions in Washington, where the grand jury has been meeting, instead of Chicago, where the prosecutor is based. Some lawyers close to the case cited courthouse talk that Fitzgerald might announce his findings as early as tomorrow, though hard evidence about his intentions and timing remained elusive.

[Bumblebee]

21. PS

as people over at Daily Cos point out, "tomorrow," in this case means Wednesday since it' in Tuesday's paper -- which puts it on the same day as the beginning of Saddam's trial. The timing would be quite ironic...

[sofa king]

19. ...And a cackle arose from Schuyler Colfax's grave....

Some might say he's been busy of late, there in South Bend.

http://bioguide.congress.gov/scripts/biodisplay.pl?index=C000626

[TacticalPeek]

22. Help me here.

The special prosecutor has personally interviewed numerous officials from the CIA, White House and State Department. In the process, he and his investigative team have talked to a number of Cheney aides, including Mary Matalin, his former strategist; Catherine Martin, his former communications adviser; and Jennifer Millerwise, his former spokesman. In the case of Millerwise, she talked with the prosecutor more than two years ago but never appeared before the grand jury, according to a person familiar with her situation.

---------


"More than two years ago"? Wasn't Fitzgerald appointed less than two years ago? VandeHei and Pincus must mean she was interviwed by the FBI over two years ago.


Anyway, Walter Pincus gets the scoop - oorah!


NYT - not so much.

[Rainscents]

24. Cheney's Office Is A Focus in Leak Case

http://www.rawstory.com/

Cheney's Office Is A Focus in Leak Case
Sources Cite Role Of Feud With CIA

By Jim VandeHei and Walter Pincus
Washington Post Staff Writers
Tuesday, October 18, 2005; A01



As the investigation into the leak of a CIA agent's name hurtles to an apparent conclusion, special prosecutor Patrick J. Fitzgerald has zeroed in on the role of Vice President Cheney's office, according to lawyers familiar with the case and government officials. The prosecutor has assembled evidence that suggests Cheney's long-standing tensions with the CIA contributed to the unmasking of operative Valerie Plame.

In grand jury sessions, including with New York Times reporter Judith Miller, Fitzgerald has pressed witnesses on what Cheney may have known about the effort to push back against ex-diplomat and Iraq war critic Joseph C. Wilson IV, including the leak of his wife's position at the CIA, Miller and others said. But Fitzgerald has focused more on the role of Cheney's top aides, including Chief of Staff I. Lewis "Scooter" Libby, lawyers involved in the case said.


Oh boy... This is getting real good! :popcorn:

[swag]

25. "Leak case" is Secret Service slang for Cheney's colostomy bag.

Don't make sport.

[TacticalPeek]

26. Dupe.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=102x1857292

[Rainscents]

27. Sorry... I didn't see the other post! Thanks!

[TacticalPeek]

28. No prob.

There's a lot of nice stuff flying around lately.

:)

[Moloch]

29. CIA Leak Shines Light on Whitehouse

WASHINGTON Oct 18, 2005 — Special prosecutor Patrick Fitzgerald's CIA-leak inquiry is focusing attention on what long has been a Bush White House tactic: slash-and-burn assaults on its critics, particularly those opposed to the president's Iraq war policies.

If top officials are indicted, it could seriously erode the administration's credibility and prove yet another embarrassment to President Bush on the larger issue of how he and his national security team marshaled information much of it later shown to be inaccurate to support their case for the U.S.-led invasion of Iraq in March 2003.

The grand jury is concluding a 22-month investigation of whether administration officials illegally leaked information disclosing the identity of an undercover CIA officer, Valerie Plame, in an effort to discredit her husband, former diplomat and war critic Joseph Wilson.

Anxiety at the White House increased after Bush adviser Karl Rove's fourth appearance last week before Fitzgerald's grand jury, and with a New York Times reporter's firsthand account of her dealings with I. Lewis "Scooter" Libby, Vice President Dick Cheney's top aide.

http://abcnews.go.com/Politics/LegalCenter/wireStory?id=1225179

[Demit]

30. Perhaps we'll get more think pieces now on this WH's "character"

The media needs to stand back further and think seriously about what all this really means. They are still pussy-footing: "If top officials are indicted, it could seriously erode the administration's credibility"? "Yet another embarrassment"?

These are meepy words. Let's talk about character. It interested them enough seven years ago, when it was a Democratic administration...

[halobeam]

32. I agree, these are weak words at best. They still stand back on the

point of the whole thing. Part of it is "who" leaked it. The crux is "why"... and that's the point that brought us to war. Damn them. I'm still pissed. I won't be satisfied until the real ugly truth is out there, mincing NO words.

[leftchick]

31. oh I think we will know of cheney's involvement....

<snip>

"The grand jury investigation has the possibility of really shining a light on the credibility of the administration, how officials tried to undermine those who were criticizing them and how they then covered up that attempt," said American University political scientist James Thurber.

"The question of whether the vice president was involved, we'll probably never know. But it was pretty close to him," said Thurber. He questioned whether Rove and Libby would have operated "on their own" in discussing Wilson's wife with reporters.



Of course he was "involved" and I don't believe Fitzgerald will let him off with no charges.

[DesertRat]

34. This is going to be good

:kick:

[calimary]

128. Welcome to DU!

This is INDEED going to be good.

I wish them MANY MANY MANY sleepless nights.

[Beetwasher]

35. Music, Sweet Music

Man, it seems like shit is coalescing.

[ClintonTyree]

36. But is there enough evidence to indict?

This as all well and good, it certainly damages the credibility of this this most heinous of administrations, but will there be enough evidence for the Grand Jury to indict Cheney? I have my doubts. Libby may be indicted along with Rove, MAYBE, but Cheney? I really can't see that happening.
Call me pessimistic but I've been totally disappointed too many times. These slimeballs have eluded every one of their crimes so far leaving nothing but their slime trail in their wake. I want to see justice done but justice seems to have a price tag on it lately and these con-men can certainly afford to buy their way out of everything.
I hope I'm wrong, I really, really do. I'd love to think that our country and judicial system aren't for sale. It would certainly restore some of my faith in America, that's for sure.

[savemefromdumbya]

40. I think this is just the tip of the iceberg

time runs out at the end of this month. I'm sure there is more. Bush did have to hire a lawyer way back.

[johnfunk]

42. Raw Story: NY Daily News src believes sr White House official has flipped

:nuke:KABOOM!:nuke:

New York Daily News source believes senior White House official has flipped in leak case
RAW STORY / Oct. 17, 2005 10:15PM
The case of outed CIA agent Valerie Plame is set to explode.

The New York Daily News is set to report in Tuesday editions that a well-placed source interviewed by the newspaper believes a senior White House official has flipped and may be helping the prosecutor in the case, RAW STORY has learned.

The Daily News will reveal that a top source believes that based on the questioning of Special Prosecutor Patrick Fitzgerald and his other contacts with the investigation, someone in the White House has turned.

...

Two officials close to Fitzgerald told RAW STORY they have seen documents obtained from the White House Iraq Group which state that Cheney was present at several of the group's meetings. They say Cheney personally discussed with individuals in attendance at least two interviews in May and June of 2003 Wilson gave to New York Times columnist Nicholas Kristof and Washington Post reporter Walter Pincus, in which he claimed the administration “twisted” prewar intelligence and what the response from the administration should be.

ON EDIT: One megaton headline. Hey, a guy's gotta celebrate...

[i miss america]

43. Someone flipped? I wonder who

[johnfunk]

46. A lot of people are weighing in...

... on this thread.

H2OMan thinks it's Armitage (and Powell). I'm pretty sure Powell's been helping them, but if they're getting inside WHIG data, I'll put my money on either Hadley or Scooter, or both.

The Frogs, They Went a'Marchin'...

[MidwestTransplant]

61. Powell or Armitage are obvious choices but

I really wonder how much access those two had. I always thought Powell was left out of much of the prewar bus. that Cheney was involved in.

Maybe Matalin? She doesn't want to do time with two little kids and all. She would have definitely been in the know.

[OKthatsIT]

Powell obtained 'classified records' of Wilson

Who did he report to? This report had the info on Valerie Plame's Operative work with the CIA.

[Blaq Dem]

75. Champagne, anyone? It's a DU brand!

((unpoping the cork))

Wouldn't it be funny if Bush got drunk and accidently spilled the beans? Ha ha ha ha.

[DBoon]

83. but Bush lies so much

would anyone believe him if he happened to tell the truth one time?

[radfringe]

93. and his "no comment" on the investigation/probable indictments

is getting weaker by the day

yesterday - he got a bit snippy with reporters when asked if he would fire the leakers

just my 2-cents - during the time the leak was going on, most of the media just took dictation from the bushies, they gleefully sang the chorus of WMDs and there was no real "investigative reporting" going on. Their information came from the white house. So there wasn't any sleuthing where a reporter would have "dug up" the information as to Wilson's wife's CIA identity - it had to come from the white house

One of the "excuses" reporters used regarding getting information was that the white house was very tight-lipped and it was difficult to get anything out of them. Any information reporters received was carefully screened before being released.

So Plame's identity was not a case of "oops, shouldn't have said that" - it was planned and planted.

Most of us are convinced that at least Rove and Libby played a big part in directly leaking the info. bush* did say he would fire anyone leaking, then changed it to "fire anyone convicted" -- and now he's mr. no-comment

Where's the honor and dignity he was suppose to bring back?

[cassiepriam]

98. Maybe it is Libby. Judy ratted on him, he ratted on C.

Judy's article in NYT and Libby's nonsensical Aspens
letter all BS to cover the fact they have been singing.

[KurtNYC]

Here is the original Daily News story

Cheney's name has come up amid indications Fitzgerald may be edging closer to a blockbuster conspiracy charge - with help from a secret snitch.

"They have got a senior cooperating witness - someone who is giving them all of that," a source who has been questioned in the leak probe told the Daily News yesterday.

http://www.nydailynews.com/front/story/356858p-304125c.html

So that's one "secret snitch" plus the guy who gave the above quote. It is like the "snitch" has a press agent (or they are one in the same).

[i miss america]

144. This might just be a planned leak, orchestrated to watch the rats scramble

[goclark]

44. Is this saying that Cheney was flipped on?

Be still my heart!

[Tom Joad]

59. Maybe by George... He wants to make the decisions now! n/t

[Alizaryn]

60. I believe they are saying he is in

Fitzgerald's sights at this point.

[Orsino]

104. Yeah, that was poorly worded...

...but I also read it as saying that the source has flipped on Cheney.

[shockingelk]

45. They all flipped out sometime during the Reagan admin

[Dora]

49. Stop it! You made me choke on my ice cream -- too funny! n/t

[johnfunk]

47. And FWIW I'm predicting it's all over for Fredo Bush by Election Day 06

n/t

[Barrett808]

51. "Fredo Bush" -- nice. n/t

[bunny planet]

54. I think Fredo Bush is now my favorite new nickname for His Fraudulency.

Very nice indeed.

[venable]

78. I know it was you, Fredo

And so does everyone else, now.

[gort]

81. I'm Smart!

Fredo 'Bush': It ain't the way I wanted it! I can handle things! I'm smart! Not like everybody says... like dumb... I'm smart and I want respect!





Senator Trent Lott: (as they're watching the Jeffy the 'Gee' at the sex club) Freddie 'B.', that thing can't be real.
Fredo'Bush': Sure it is. That's why they call him Superman.


Now watch this drive!

[WinkyDink]

101. Johnny Olah

Johnny Olah knows Miami like the back of his hand. (Cut to Michael, hand on forehead. Best. Scene. Ever.)

"Hail Mary, full of grace......"

[calimary]

Welcome to DU, venable and gort - this just gets better and better

Glad you're here to help us witness the wheels coming off the "crashcart," if you will.

I'm in the "be still my heart" camp with an earlier poster here.

Nothing is confirmed yet. This is all speculation. And these people have had time to cover their tracks and lie and it's one person's word against another.

However... there are also egos involved - a few of them perhaps, for example, like Powell's, bruised - for having been publicly hung out to dry at the UN by these people. Powell is just one more casualty of this debacle. Whatever reputation and credibility he had, coming into this White House after Selection 2000, has been blown. He's just one more person or thing who's been trashed by the bush croud. The bush Reverse Midas Touch has perverted everything it touches, up to and including such disparate things as the Presidential Medal of Freedom and the Purple Heart. Don't know if it's Powell who actually turned, but if I were him, I'd be mightily pissed that these people I trusted and backed with my life's and career's credibility had rendered me damaged goods.

I wonder if rove turned? What might one be willing to do to save one's own skin - especially if rove gets the sense, or has been advised by his attorneys, that he's in the cross hairs? Besides, if rove had to choose whom to protect, and he's bush's backstage boy, and he thought this might wind up being bad for bush, why wouldn't he consider cheney expendable to save bush's ass? That would certainly be one way to contain the damage and "protect the president." What if he figured that a nice big USDA Prime piece of meat thrown to the wolves might satisfy the ravenous pack and shake them off bush's trail? After all, one of rove's favorite tricks has always been - distraction, hasn't it? Remember: rove is loyal to bush, NOT cheney. rove is bush's man, not cheney's.

Just speculating.

Tantalizing, isn't it?


VISUALIZE IMPEACHMENT...

[valerief]

48. What if the Global Village Idiot flipped?

You know, a couple of Amstel Lights and a few lines and he's a regular blabbermouth.

[Bumblebee]

50. It would be great if it extends to Cheney but I also want Rove!

The thing is, once Cheney resigns, they will replace him with someone more "attractive" to independents -- Guiliani, McCain, who knows... -- but if you want a guarantee that Bush from now on is a 100% lame duck, it has to be Rove too, not just Cheney and Libby! I want it all!

[Name removed]

52. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Garbo 2004]

67. ArcticBeacon article has bogus info as has been pointed out repeatedly:

Chicago grand jury has NOTHING to do with the Plame investigation.

The Plame investigation, testimony etc is all before the Wash DC grand jury. So far no indictments have been announced. And Fitz's scope of investigation is limited to the Plame leak. Fitz is leading the investigation as DOJ-appointed Special Prosecutor, not as US Attorney in Chicago. Chicago is as irrelevant as Peoria when it comes to the Plame matter. Clearly Heneghen is not by any means a credible source.

Rover, however, may himself be turning, I think. It's possible. Joe Wilson said he was told that Rove was furious at Libby, Cheney when he learned he was in legal jeopardy for playing telephone with reporters on Plame/Wilson. Does anyone doubt he'd cheerfully serve up Libby and Cheney to save himself and perhaps also his good bud the Pres?

[anitar1]

84. It could be Rover, bullies often turn out to be the biggest

cowards,IMHO.

[Carla in Ca]

87. And he has canceled two appearances that were

in the last few days. Hmmm

[Garbo 2004]

92. Yup, he's been keeping a very low profile since he last testified.

Despite earlier reports how he would welcome fighting any charges, freed from being limited as a serving White House staffer, his current public shyness doesn't seem to support such bravado.

[pacalo]

85. I disagree about the scope of the investigation.

There are indications that the investigation goes beyond the Plame leak:

Evidence is building that the probe conducted by Patrick Fitzgerald, special prosecutor, has extended beyond the leaking of a covert CIA agent's name to include questioning about the administration's handling of pre-Iraq war intelligence.

According to the Democratic National Committee, a majority of the nine members of the White House Iraq Group have been questioned by Mr Fitzgerald. The team, which included senior national security officials, was created in August 2002 to "educate the public" about the risk posed by weapons of mass destruction on Iraq.

http://msnbc.msn.com/id/9732284/

Also see:

CIA leak probe widening to include use of intelligence

[Garbo 2004]

91. What evidence? Of course Fitz questioned WHIGs since his investigation

is trying to determine whether they participated in a coordinated effort to smear Wilson and were involved in the Plame leak.

What evidence is there that his investigation goes beyond that? Speculation? Gossip? Wishful thinking? What source does the article cite? The DNC that clearly is engaging in speculation for the purposes of political spin.

I certainly would welcome a broader investigation, but Fitz as DOJ Special Prosecutor is not as free as Ken Starr, Independent Counsel, to go off on tangents. His specific charge from the DOJ as Special Prosecutor is to investigate the Plame leak. The broader issues of the Administration's handling of prewar intel is simply beyond the scope of the investigation he is authorized to undertake.

And of course I would love to be proven wrong about that. But this article does nothing but repeat what the DNC says, which is political spin. DNC spin hardly qualifies as "evidence."

[Peace Patriot]

103. Well, you can hardly investigate and understand the Plame leak without

investigating and understanding the cooking of pre-war intelligence. That was the supposed MOTIVE for the leak--to punish Joe Wilson for his dissent about the cooked intel. The motive may be much broader than that, but that's the bottom line. Really, Garbo 2004, how can you separate crime and motive? Motive goes to intent. Yes, you can prosecute a crime if you don't know the motive, and can't prove intent, but it's much better and more solid if you have the motive and intent nailed and evidence to back it up.

Witness 1: "He threatened to kill her because she was playing around. I heard him say that on two occasions...." Witness 2: "I was watering my lawn next door when he caught them entering the house, and I heard him say to her, 'I'm going to kill you.'" Evidence: a note in his handwriting addressed to the victim, 'You deserve to die for what you did to me, you slut!' Evidence: the bloody knife with her blood and his fingerprints on it, etc.

Wouldn't you prefer to have all that motive and intent evidence as the context for the bloody knife?

It's certainly true, though, that we're all guessing at this point, and we should probably curtail our expectations, since there is such high potential for deals and fall guys, and the players are so powerful, with unprecedented ability to commit crimes and cover them up--and to commit crimes and NOT cover them up, and get away with it. Do we really think that Rove, Libby and...gulp...Cheney will do time? Do we really think that they will be held accountable, and not get away with this, too?

We're putting a lot on Fitzgerald and the GJ--and your point about Special Prosecutor vs. Independent Counsel is a good one. Starr's resources were vast, and further backed by venomous far rightwing billionaires, and a rightwing lapdog press. Fitzgerald does not have that blank check, and is facing a hostile, pro-Bush, pro-war press, a hostile Bush "pod people" Congress, and utterly ruthess perps, who will stop at nothing to get their way.

And there is STILL the possibility of a mere report--however damning it might be--with no indictments. There are a lot of signs that indictments are coming, but nothing solid. And whether the action of this GJ will rip open this nest of vipers in the White House, or not--or get deeply into the matter of how the war was perpetrated, or not go there--is just a vast unknown. We have to wait...

[sendero]

105. This...

... " Fitzgerald does not have that blank check, and is facing a hostile, pro-Bush, pro-war press, a hostile Bush "pod people" Congress, and utterly ruthess perps, who will stop at nothing to get their way."

... this is why I hope he drops some indictments soon. Is there any reason that he cannot continue his investigation after the "first round" of indictments are levied?

Because now he really needs to set these assholes on their heels. And if one of them has flipped now wait until there are a few indictments, they'll be turning like aspen leaves trying to save their own asses.

[pacalo]

140. I see where you're coming from.

We'll have to agree to disagree. I pay attention when multiple sources are relaying the same information.

If they turn out to be wrong, I have no problem in taking the "I told you so's". But for right now, this is a chatboard, not a courtroom, & right now everyone is pumped up & having fun speculating. No one, including the media, has the evidence. Take it with a grain of salt.

:popcorn:

[i miss america]

68. Powell testified that capital crimes were committed?

If that's true, please excuse me while I go have a heart attack and die.

It's been nice knowing you.

[Tight_rope]

143. Oh damn...didn't think about the possibility...I was thinking KKK Rove!

I'm think I might have a heart attack just thinking about which one turned.

[venable]

79. be still my heart

"Powell testified before the citizen grand jury that President Bush had taken the U.S. to war illegally based on lies, which is a capital crime involving treason under the U.S. Code."

[lovuian]

138. Powell knows he was set up and has no regrets and hates

Cheney for what they did to him!!!

[johnfunk]

53. Flippity... floppity!

[journalist3072]

55. They're going DOWN!!!!

This probably explains why Fitzgerald has been asking specifically about Cheney's role lately.

[Neshanic]

56. Armitage? He can't even find a shirt that fits his neck....

besides, he does not seem like the type. Now Mr. Mai Lai is definately a possible.

[GregW]

57. "Flip you. Flip ya for real"

[CoffeeCat]

58. It's Libby...and Miller is corroborating what Libby says...

Someone else on DU deciphered Libby's poem to Miller. I base my thoughts on the DUer who so insightfully figured out that Aspen poem.

Libby told Miller to get back to life and work. He told her that the "Aspens turned...and that they turn in clusters."

The DU poster pointed out that at the end of Sept 05, a group of elite, powerful conservatives met in ASPEN. Robert Novak reported about this conference. Although everything was "off the record", Novak reported that the elite conservatives despised Bush. They pretty much wanted Bush to know that his "friends were displeased".

The Aspens that turned, were the conservatives in Aspen. The power brokers, who are the foundation of conservative politics, were done with Bush. After Katrina, they'd had it.

Libby was signaling to Miller that it was ok to roll over on BushCo and reveal what she knew--because the conservatives in Aspen had turned, and they turned collectively (in clusters) against Bush. Libby told Miller to return to work and life---signaling that she could talk and free herself. She no longer needed to protect those who were no longer supported by the elites.

Libby and Miller concocted a ridiculous story about Miller finally realizing that Libby wanted her to talk. Yeah, sure. It was all a misunderstanding. They made it appear as if Miller would testify against Libby. However, it's Libby and Miller who are testifying against BushCo. Maybe against Bush; maybe Cheney; maybe both.

Bet ya anything that other administration officials (Powell, Tenet, Ari, etc) are singing--to avoid prosecution and because they're sick of the pathology of BushCo. Combine all of this with phone records, emails and the communications on AF1--and Fitz most likely has overwhelming evidence against Cheney/Bush/both.

I'm convinced of this.

[Child_Of_Isis]

63. After Katrina, they'd had it.

Do you think it was the 250 billion that turned them?

[Onlooker]

64. Fascinating post, TwoSparkles

I think the theory you present is extremely intriguing.

[wordpix]

151. me, too

[longship]

65. I like this.

It's good.

Senior WH official turned == Libby.

If this is true, these guys are gonna bring down the whole house of cards. No one will be left standing. Why would they do this?

[CoffeeCat]

69. Because if Bush/Cheney/Rove are dismantled....

the media and the general public will not care about the other players.

Bringing down a president, the veep and "the architect" will leave the country uninterested in Scooter Libby, Richard Armitage, Paul Wolfowitz, Donald Rumsfeld, and other other PNAC/neocon players.

If they can bring down the historical, major figures--within the context of a paradigm-shifting story worse than Watergate--it's almost a sight trick. The neocons can scurry away--with their agenda still intact--while America goes ballistic over the president, the veep and Rove going down in flames.

I believe the neocons are through with Bush. Like Libby wrote to Miller, "the Aspens have turned and they turn in clusters". The Aspen conference attendees (hard-line conservatives and neocons) have turned against BushCo and friends because he's hurting their cause. He was fine when he was selling their agenda like a good, little lap dog.

He was supposed to be the cute little pet who was electable and friendly. But, he's screwing up royally and his polls are in the toilet. The neocons extracted from Bush what they needed. They needed a charming tumbleweed to package and sell America their agenda--which needed to begin with Iraq.

Like Libby said to Judith in the poem--she's got stories to work on--about Iran and biological weapons. The neocon agenda will push forward and Libby knows this. The neocon/PNAC network will remain intact, even if Rove/Bush are out of the picture.

[longship]

71. They cannot bring down the house without...

bringing down all of the contents as well.

That means all the high and middle level staffers go. Rove/Libby/Hadley/Condi, everybody in power, will be out of power.

I do not see what's to gain from this. The only scenerio that begins to make sense is if the people turning *know* that it's going to all collapse and they are out to save their miserable asses.

[i miss america]

76. "President Pelosi" ... it sort of has a nice ring to it

All we have to do is pickup a few seats in 2006. :bounce:

[Laelth]

127. Ding, ding, ding.

We have a winner!

That explains why the Aspens had to turn now. They need to get * safely replaced before the 2006 elections because they fear that if they wait that long there will be a President Pelosi when * and Cheney go down.

By Jove, I think she's got it! :thumbsup:

:dem:
Celebratory Dem

[i miss america]

142. Oh goody! What did I win?

:bounce:

[Laelth]

157. How about a cuberland curl and a glass of chianti?

-Laelth

[Seabiscuit]

96. Will Libby become the Bush administration's John Dean?

Even if so, I'd probably choke to death before being able to cough up any semblance of respect for Libby of the kind I now have for John Dean.

[JerseygirlCT]

Yeah, I don't think anyone's

speculating about any noble intentions here.

If this theory is correct, Libby is turning to protect neo-con interests, since Bush isn't doing that job any longer.

Which way is more dangerous, I wonder?

[calimary]

Remember, too, that Libby IS a PNACer.

I'd suspect his ultimate loyalty is to "the cause." And yes, I'd bet there is PLENTY of outrage among them that their precious "cause" has been so badly botched. No matter what the vote in Iraq (I saw this morning that even Pox "news" is now speaking of voting irregularities over there), the whole thing is a giant pig-fuck now, what with all the violence and strengthening insurgency. It's turning out so ENTIRELY differently than what they planned. And it'd be reasonable to suspect that, as a result, they'd be likely to blame the execution of their plans, rather than admit that it's their plan, itself, that's the biggest failure of all.

I think the notion is correct - that the PNACers will throw their incompetent White House mismanagers to the wolves, creating a spectacle and feeding frenzy over THAT in the media, while the REAL insiders scurry away into hiding, to plot how best to resurrect their plans under DIFFERENT management. Note: bill kristol (longtime conservative power-broker/insider and CHIEF of the PNAC, as well as one of the loudest voices against Harriet Miers) and jeb bush are both PNAC signatories. kristol is out of range at the moment, off in his publishing arena where he appears to be fairly harmless - at least to the untrained eye.

[JerseygirlCT]

Ugh. That's all we need - Jeb instead of George. nt

[WinkyDink]

102. Because of increased war-talk.

Powell, for one, does NOT want the U.S. to attack Syria and/or Iran, IMO.

I would bet $$$ he would do what he had to, to stop this Admin. He acts now from enormous guilt.

But alas, I agree that NOTHING will stop the Neo-con agenda. Nothing yet has.

[Pastiche423]

89. Novak's Sept 22, 2005 column

ASPEN, Colo. -- For two full days, George W. Bush was bashed. He was taken to task on his handling of stem cell research, population control, the Iraq war and, especially, Hurricane Katrina. The critics were no left-wing bloggers. They were rich, mainly Republican and presumably Bush voters in the last two presidential elections.

more...
http://www.nationalledger.com/artman/publish/article_2726836.shtml

[Tight_rope]

149. Thank you for that link to Novak's artical about the ASPEN!..n/t

[wordpix]

152. aspen leaves have turned in clusters

not all the repugs are stupid. some turned a long time ago due to the $350 billion deficit and out-of-control spending, not to mention the lies and mishandling of the Iraq War.

[calimary]

Whoa - excellent analysis.

The aspens have already been turning. And when they turn, they turn in clusters, joined at the root.

This makes perfect sense.

on edit - hey, Pastiche - thanks for the link on the Novak column. Seems to put the puzzle pieces together - at least for me.

Follow the money.

Look for the motivation.

Determine who stands to benefit.

[plasticsundance]

Interesting theory ... but I have a question

TwoSparkles wrote:

"The DU poster pointed out that at the end of Sept 05, a group of elite, powerful conservatives met in ASPEN. Robert Novak reported about this conference. Although everything was "off the record", Novak reported that the elite conservatives despised Bush. They pretty much wanted Bush to know that his "friends were displeased".


Correct me if I'm wrong, but the Aspen Conference took place two - three days after Libby had sent Miller the letter. Libby sent the letter Thursday, Sept 15th, but Novak said in his article published Sept 22 that the conference took place last weekend and was a two day event, which would imply the following day or Saturday. However, Novak isn't clear, or is either incorrect, because Tom Ridge spoke at the conference on Tuesday Sept 20th.

http://www.aspentimes.com/apps/pbcs.dll/artikkel?SearchID=73111627556451&Avis=AT&Dato=20020920&Kategori=NEWS&Lopenr=209190011&Ref=AR">Ridge to speak at private conference

This would mean for the theory to be correct, Libby would have had foreknowledge of the negative sentiments that would be articulated at the event, unless a great many people were arriving at the Hotel Jerome on Thursday, and he got word.

[longship]

62. How many Sr. WH officials are there?

Rove
Libby
Hadley

That's about it.

These guys don't turn state's evidence to rat out middle-level staffers. They'd only do it to cover their asses and rat out the guys above them. Now who are the people above them? Not many of them either.

[Garbo 2004]

94. You left out the WH Chief of Staff, Andrew Card. He may be a nonentity

but reportedly he's jockeying for position now that Rove is a bit "compromised." And he's a WHIG member.

Not that he's necessarily in a position to rat someone out or has a need to, but in the world of speculation I suppose one should have him on the list of Sr WH officials. Just to be inclusive. ;)

[Captain Hilts]

135. Card is a "non-entity" who got to go to JPII's funeral instead of Carter.

[Seabiscuit]

97. Remember Watergate?

There were 3 Sr. WH officials in Nixon's cabinet:

Haldeman
Erlichman
Dean

Dean turned state's evidence and didn't just "rat out middle-level staffers", he brought the entire WH down.

[GetTheRightVote]

66. Powell is the one internal WH that is what I have heard at least.

:kick:

[Jane Austin]

72. But

Powell isn't a senior White House official.

He's from the State Department.

[longship]

73. Secy of State is *not* a WH Official.

It almost cannot be Powell.

[niallmac]

70. I want the 'flipper' to know; you are saving the world.

Nothing less than that.

[oioioi]

82. saving their ass, more like....

scooter.

[kostya]

74. Here's another take, given that Fitz has been very very good at

controlling leaks. Perhaps he's wrapping this up and even has one or two flips and is now tactically leaking to get everyone else in a big lather and who knows, he picks up some more flips or even finds a contradiction to the flip story. I think, at least in part, this was also part of his tactic to tell Judith Miller she wasn't going to be charged and then let her go blab her story. I wouldn't be surprised if it was a tactic to turn up the heat on Libby, Bolton, et. al. And I wouldn't be surprised if she is eventually indicted anyway for her role in this slime.

[moc]

80. I think you could very well be right on this. I wouldn't be surprised

if these are controlled leaks by Fitz. Damn, he's good!

[lovuian]

77. Colin Powell!!! or someone under Cheney flipped!!!

Now thats the miracles of miracles!!!

[Occulus]

86. Well, when the aspens turn,

they turn in clusters.

Expect more than one to flip. It's entirely possible that several could, to save their own asses.

Rats, from the sinking ship.

[lala_rawraw]

88. Read Raw in the 'morrow kids:)

[Cessna Invesco Palin]

100. Or just read the NY Daily News, apparently. n/t

[lala_rawraw]

Uh, no... later today, read Raw - enough said

[eppur_se_muova]

153. YOW! Thanx for the heads-up!

http://rawstory.com/news/2005/Cheney_aide_cooperating_with_CIA_outing_1018.html

[eppur_se_muova]

154. Posted in wrong thread, sorry

[Binka]

90. I'm Taking Ari Or Steve Hadley As The Grassers

I might even box them for an exacta!

[JawJaw]

95. Yikes

If Dubya gets hauled in for a few 4 hour sessions under oath, do you think he'll have to do it on his own, or will Unka Dick have to hold his hand agaain?

I'd pay good money to see him crumple under the judicial cosh! Could C-Span cover it, I wonder?

[WinkyDink]

99. I'm going with Powell first,

Tenet second, with Matalin bringing up the rear.
Then there are all kinds of CIA peeps.

Oh, okay, these aren't "WH Officials".
Just goes to show HOW MUCH EVIDENCE Fitz prolly has!!

Would Cheney turn on Bush?

[QuettaKid]

I have just one thing to say....

ok, ok....3 things really.


:party: :toast: :bounce: :party: :toast: :bounce: :party: :toast: :bounce: :party: :toast: :bounce: :party: :toast: :bounce: :party: :toast: :party: :toast: :bounce: :party: :toast: :bounce: :party: :toast: :bounce: :party: :toast: :bounce: :party: :toast: :bounce: :party: :toast: :bounce: :party: :toast: :bounce: :party: :toast: :bounce: :party: :toast: :bounce: :party: :toast: :bounce: :party: :toast: :bounce: :party: :toast: :bounce:

[Moloch]

Cheney and Bush...

Haven't been seen together in a very long time. Cheney hasn't been seen at all in a long time.. I remember reading an article that he wasn't getting alon with * although I can't remember where.

[PageOneQ]

On One hand....

On one hand this is a grave and serious time for our nation...
On the OTHER hand: "Hahahahahahahahahahahahahah aahah hahahaha hahahha ahahahahhahahh hahahahahhah hahahahahahahahahahahah"

[calimary]

Welcome to DU, PageOneQ - let's hope we ALL get the last laugh.

With apologies to Lewis Carroll, this is getting interestinger and interestinger.

[Tight_rope]

150. Welcome to DU PageOneQ!

[plasticsundance]

A war between the CIA and those that were part of the Iraq Group?

The CIA would definitely have ways of obtaining information ... clandestine. All of sudden a piece of information that builds another part of the puzzle in the case suddenly shows up ... but from where?

[underpants]

I'm not holding my breath BUT if I were to guess I would say--Tenet

Just a guess.

[indepat]

The truth will set this beleaguered nation free

[Javaman]

Is this like the best who done it story or what? I'm glad to be alive..

to see these bastards turn on a spit!

give me a AMEN!!!!

[superconnected]

Now turn each other in and eat each other you canibals.

That's the only interesting thing watching about the Republican party.

I love it when that happens.

It's like seeing a mad wolf pack that's been killing every other animal suddenly turn on itself.

Go republicans! Get each other.

[nguoihue]

White House official has flipped

I feel tempted to prepare for my street dance but have been disappointed some many times in the past. Will this be the one?

[Hissyspit]

106. NY Daily News: "Senior Cooperating Witness" (Cheney May Be Probe Target)

No name for the 'secret snitch'?

Cheney may be target of probe
BY JAMES GORDON MEEK, THOMAS M. DeFRANK and KENNETH R. BAZINET
DAILY NEWS WASHINGTON BUREAU

http://www.nydailynews.com/front/story/356858p-304125c.html

- snip -

At least one source and one reporter who have testified in the probe said U.S. Attorney Patrick Fitzgerald is pursuing Cheney's role in the Valerie Plame affair.

In addition, at least six current and former Cheney staffers - most members of the White House Iraq Group - have testified before the grand jury, including the vice president's top honcho, Lewis (Scooter) Libby, and two top Cheney national security lieutenants.

Cheney's name has come up amid indications Fitzgerald may be edging closer to a blockbuster conspiracy charge - with help from a secret snitch.

"They have got a senior cooperating witness - someone who is giving them all of that," a source who has been questioned in the leak probe told the Daily News yesterday.

MORE

[roguevalley]

107. No wonder Cheney looks so fat and bad. And you don't see his

horrible wife out moralizing. I wonder how that cow will moralize this.

[The Sushi Bandit]

108. I think Powel is the "senior cooperating witness"!!!!!!!

would'nt it be grand!

[Fridays Child]

109. I keep thinking of the fact that Dick just bought a DC area home.

Does he know what's coming and is he planning to resign but remain nearby, so that he can "advise B*sh" in an unofficial capacity? It might explain why, so early in his second term, he felt it necessary to buy a house near the White House.

[eShirl]

113. maybe it's so Lynne will be close to visit him in prison

did I say that ? :evilgrin:

[Fridays Child]

115. That's a sweet thought.

:)

[Hissyspit]

110. Is it "Secret Snitch" or "Secret Santa?"

:evilgrin:

[seemslikeadream]

122. Merry Fitzmas Hissyspit

It's beginning to look a lot like Fitzmas
Everywhere you go.
Who's gonna do five-or-ten?
We're thinking once again
Of handcuffs and of orange jumpsuits aglow.
It's beginning to look a lot like Fitzmas
Indictments on every score
But the prettiest sight to see
Is the scowl on Darth Cheney
At the slammer's front door.

A warrant or writ, a subpoena that fits
Is the wish of Barney and Ben;
The thought of Turdblossom hung up like a possum
Is the hope of Janice and Jen;
And Mom and Dad can hardly wait for court to start again.

It's beginning to look a lot like Fitzmas
Everywhere you go.
There's an defendant who doesn't want to tell;
One in the White House as well --
The felony kind that doesn't mind the law!
It's beginning to look a lot like Fitzmas
Soon the bells will start
And the thing that will make them ring
Is the indictment that we sing,
Right within our hearts!

crispini

[shockingelk]

111. *

Maybe * turned states evidence to save his own ass.

[radfringe]

112. bwaa-haa-haaa

"...help from a secret snitch."

headline should read - Leaker reveals Leaker...

[JawJaw]

114. Whooooooooops!

Another heart attack due, maybe ??

Awww poor Unka Dick, put him to bed with his cookies & cocoa - don't let those nasty special prosecutors get you all upset, now......

[DeepModem Mom]

116. This is the story that caused such excitement here last night -- kick. nt

[DoYouEverWonder]

119. And it took three reporters to write it?

I guess when the NY Daily News gets past three paragraphs they have to bring in extra assistance?

[Massachusetts]

117. Cheney may be target of probe

Remember kids as Yogi once said, "It ain't over till its over".

I remain CAUTIOUS.

[Connie_Corleone]

118. I don't want them giving the name of the "snitch".

That person must remain secret until the trial.

[rodeodance]

120. Did Cheney ever testify?

.....In addition, at least six current and former Cheney staffers - most members of the White House Iraq Group - have testified before the grand jury, including the vice president's top honcho, Lewis (Scooter) Libby, and two top Cheney national security lieutenants.

[calimary]

123. I heard someone on TV last night talking about how cheney had been

"interviewed" awhile ago but not under oath.

[Demeter]

121. Take Down Cheney, DeLay and Frist, Abramoff, Rice and so on

and you have isolated Bush enough that he can be shipped off to the Hague after we're finished stripping him of everything he's got. Delicious! Believe, folks! It's going to happen. The CIA always gets their man, in the end (the rear end).

[Straight Shooter]

124. I don't like that term "snitch"

Eventually the person who is revealing the information to Fitzgerald will be identified. If that person is otherwise semi-honorable and has no involvement, then "snitch" is a derogatory term best reserved for playground use. Why not just use the word "informant"?

[Hissyspit]

158. Daily News is a tabloid. It's tabloid journalism.

You are right, of course.

[Tight_rope]

125. "They have got a senior cooperating witness" ===> Rove ratted on Cheney

"They have got a senior cooperating witness - someone who is giving them all of that," a source who has been questioned in the leak probe told the Daily News yesterday.":rofl:


Damn it...I knew that fuck Rove would not be a man and take the punishment all by his lonesome. He is taking Cheney down with him. :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

Oh boy!...This is really getting good.:popcorn:

[GayCanuck]

139. Why did Scooter

(First of all, in my world if a grown man is called "Scooter" get your gaydar out!!)

say Plame worked at WINPAC, apparently the non-secretive side of your CIA according to Miller's notes? My guess is that he gave her false info on purpose.

[janx]

141. That's what most reasonable people would assume.

Somebody in "Scooter"'s position would know that she was covert--especially since he worked for Cheney, who made plenty of visits to the CIA in the run-up to the war.

It's no wonder that "mushroom cloud" Cheney is a target of the investigation.

[newspeak]

146. I wish the media

would quit spinning revenge against Joe Wilson. This is about taking out a network; taking down Brewster Jennings. It is far more serious than revenge against Wilson or Plame. And when this is mentioned in public, I make it known that to take down a network that is there to protect our country is TREASON!

[truthisfreedom]

147. which only goes to show you... when you're looking for the bad guy, always

look for the guy with the biggest, meanest scowl, the one who swears at people in public, the one who has the biggest gut from consuming far more than his share, the one who is raking in the highest profits (his Haliburton shares lept over 3000 percent in the last year alone), the one with the meanest reputation... there's your thug. there's your criminal. it's the OBVIOUS guy.

[MellowOne]

148. I'm afraid to do the happy dance prematurely

Obviously a crime has been committed, hope it's not all wash away as usual.

[eppur_se_muova]

155. RawStory says it's John Hannah, a Bolton/Cheney aide

http://rawstory.com/news/2005/Cheney_aide_cooperating_with_CIA_outing_1018.html