BBC News: Seventh night of Paris violence (Street riots)

[Up2Late]

(As typical for the U.S. MSM News, even NPR only started covering the nightly Riots in the Paris Immigrant ghettos today (They've been going on for a week now).

Thursday, 3 November 2005, 03:07 GMT

Seventh night of Paris violence

The unrest has been spreading

Violence has flared for a seventh night in immigrant communities to the north-east of Paris.

Youths in several areas have been roaming the streets with sticks, as buildings have been vandalised and dozens of vehicles set alight. The unrest came after ministers held crisis talks on the situation and the president appealed for calm.

Violence broke out following the death of two teenagers. Locals say they were fleeing police, which authorities deny. On Wednesday night police clashed with youths in nine areas of the Seine-Saint-Denis department - where the violence began last week.

A police station was briefly besieged in Aulnay-sous-Bois, and a total of about 40 cars were burnt. Two primary schools, a post office and a shopping centre were damaged and a large car showroom set ablaze in the impoverished neighbourhoods.

The situation also remained tense in the original flashpoint of Clichy-sous-Bois, the BBC's Alasdair Sandford reports from the town. Our correspondent saw a gang suddenly turn on police vans - hurling stones and petrol bombs.

<http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/4401670.stm>
(more at link above)

[realisticphish]

1. why the FUCK

did i just now hear about this?

[Robeson]

2. Probably because the rulers in our country don't want to give the poor...

...and dispossed any ideas. You know, like taking to the streets...

[tocqueville]

6. in that case a lot of these "poor" drive mercedeses

The problem is that France has allowed some districts to become outlawed. The problem reminds of the Californian one 30 years ago.

They don't like to be disturbed in their little drug dealing...

[Robeson]

7. Did you read the article?....

..."Unemployment and social problems are rife in many of France's poorer suburban areas."

I seriously doubt if the poor are riding around in "mercedeses".

[davepc]

20. Driving a Mercedes in France isn't the same as driving one in the US

The German auto maker doesn't just serve a luxury market in Europe. It's more akin to Ford and GM over there then to say...a Jaguar here in the US.

This is one of Mercedes biggest sellers in Europe.

The A-Class

[tocqueville]

28. when I say Mercedes it's cars in the € 300,000 and above

the rest drive Renault and Wolkswagen, Toyota etc...

[tocqueville]

25. I read the article and live in France

it's not only mercedeses,but BMWS etc... cars that most French can't afford. It's a known fact and outrages the FRench. How can people on welfare afford these cars ?

the rioters are mostly from Arabic and Black gangs where the their little drug, cell phones etc... business has been disrupted by police patrols

Did you know that they SHOT with firearms at both police and firemen ?

The fact is that they use some of the poorer, uneducated as "foot soldiers" is another story.

The majority of the dwellers in those cities are terrified and it's the cars of the poorer people that are burning.

Sarkozy is right, they are scum

The fact that a lot has to be done to improve the conditions and integration of these communities, doesn't change the fact that this people are jailbirds.

[davepc]

32. Immigrant communities creating organized crime...

because they're shut out of mainstream society is nothing new.

I'm not making excuses for criminality, the problem is a lot deeper then welfare and street gangs, its the fact that two large population groups need each other but are not working to integrate themselves together.

Maybe the cultural differences are so great that they cant, or maybe attitudes about other cultures prevent it, I don't know...

But even if you got rid of every immigrant mafia in France the bleak demographics faced by France still exist. The need for new labor sources is still there. The availability of new labor sources from Africa and the MidEast are still there.

Either France needs to dismantle its democratic socialist society and replace it with something it can pay for with an aging shrinking French workforce/taxbase, or it needs to find a way to bring new labor sources into France and make them somewhat French in the process.

Make them French in the sense that they don't feel shut out from mainstream French society to such a degree they feel the need to fall back on gang criminality.

[rodeodance]

69. the poor and disenfranchized get frustrated. I am not excusing this

violent behavior but immigrants (esp if not 'white French') do have problems.

[Orrin_73]

24. post on the wrong place

[Surya Gayatri]

30. Post moved

Edited by SG--original post moved.

[Deja Q]

72. Ding ding ding! We have a winner!

With everything else going on, the last thing anyone wants is an impetus.

Thank God there aren't any college football games going on. It doesn't even matter if the team wins or loses, the kiddies come out to light up everything they can find anyway...

Sad.

[Up2Late]

3. I just went though the past week AFP RSS feed, and it looks like...

...even Agence France-Presse (AFP) hasn't really had been covering this, or at least not putting it on the "Worldwide" feed.

Violence spreads to several Paris suburbs

02/11/2005 07h40


A policeman patrols Clichy-sous-Bois ©AFP - Stephane de Sakutin

PARIS (AFP) - Gangs of youths in towns around Paris clashed with police and torched cars and trash cans overnight as violence that has plagued one poor suburb for almost a week spread around the French capital, police and local authorities said. The epicentre of the trouble, which first erupted last Thursday following the deaths of two teenagers, is the poor northeastern suburb of Clichy-sous-Bois in the Seine-Saint-Denis department.

Police sources reported some 60 vehicles torched throughout the Seine-Saint-Denis area overnight. In the towns of Aulnay-sous-Bois and Sevran, gangs of stone-throwing youths were met by police firing disabling rubber 'flash-balls' to disperse them.

"It's a rough night," a departmental spokesman said. There was less trouble overnight in Clichy-sous-Bois itself -- which has a large immigrant and Muslim population -- partly due to the heavy police presence there.

But more worryingly for the security forces, there were pockets of similar trouble for the first time in several other departments ringing Paris. Cars were torched and police reported sporadic incidents involving groups of youths in Val-d'Oise to the north of the capital and Seine-et-Marne to the southeast with lesser violence reported in Yvelines to the west.

<http://www.afp.com/english/news/stories/051102072709.0c84sltb.html>
(more at link above)

[rodeodance]

70. this has the scent of the Watts Riots to me.

[liberalpragmatist]

4. I KNOW! I saw this just tonight when I went to the BBC Website

Sounds pretty bad. Sounds like France really has some major racial/cultural issues (although we knew that before). Then again, we don't really have much room to criticize, given our history with civil rights and events like Katrina.

[mdelaguna2000]

10. because our news media is ethnocentric

and wants Merkans to live in isolation.

[niallmac]

17. Wow. I hadn't realized CNN has no headline about this.

I ALWAYS check BBC to get anything CNN feels is unworthy of their electrons.
I have been reading about the riots for a few days now but I failed to realize that they
are not being covered by CNN etc. I am not going to search the web for MSM
riot stories so maybe they are out there but given my half awake A.M. headline
skimming I never saw a word beyond the BBC. I shouldn't have to google for this story.

Very damn weird how news is or is not disseminated in this new McWorld.

[slackmaster]

31. It's been in my local newspaper for two days now

Yesterday: http://www.signonsandiego.com/uniontrib/20051102/news_1n2france.html

Today: http://www.signonsandiego.com/uniontrib/20051103/news_1n3france.html

[twaddler01]

68. i just heard yesterday eom

[AngryOldDem]

97. That was my first thought

We have no news media in this country anymore.

[aquart]

5. So. Who's going to the Olympics?

[Name removed]

8. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[LiberteToujours]

9. Well...

It's actually a suburb of Paris, it's part of Ile-de-France, not really Paris. The town where the rioting originated is a very poor and dangerous neighborhood, with over 40% of the population under 20 years of age. I'm yet to be shown exactly what the police did that was so wrong. Before jumping to conclusions and railing against the establishment, learn some facts. These are not valid protests that have anything legitimate to say. If there is to be criticism at the government, it should be for not clamping down harder and nipping these riots in the bud.

[Up2Late]

11. What set off the riots was a police chase that ended with 2 neighborhood

young men jumping a fence of an electrical sub-station (and quickly being electrocuted) in an attempt to escape from the police that were chasing them.

That's not to say that this "caused" the riot, persistent poverty and despair was the main cause of the rioting.

[LiberteToujours]

12. The police deny that they were chasing the youths

And an investigation has been opened up into the matter.

The part that I don't understand is how this could be the fault of the police, even if they were chasing the youths. Were they supposed to shoot them in the legs to prevent them from running and getting themselves electrocuted?

[frankieT]

13. the youngsters from african origin are tired

of being insulted, chased and arrested by the police even if they have done nothing. when you come to run away each time you see cops, because you know they can arrest you unlawfully (according to the color of your skin), there is a problem.
on the other hand, cops getting stoned by teenagers for no reason (or protecting dealing/delinquency territories) is a big problem too.

[supernova]

14. I wouldn't be so quick to dismiss the police's actions

When young minority kids run away from the police and it spills over into riots; there is usually long-festering anger between the community and the police.

Could young people find better ways to fill their time? Sure. Could the police develop better policing and community communication skills? Absolutely.

This stuff doesn't happen in a vacuum.

[oscarmitre]

15. Yes there's definitely some truth in that.

On the other hand the police aren't responsible for social conditions and when - assuming that social conditions and not simple crime is behind these riots - then the police are put in a difficult position. Yes, discriminatory or unfair policing practices will cause resentment which will blow up in these conditions. But in that sense the actions of the police are just the spark. Assuming, as I say, that the police are partially to blame.

What's interesting about this is the duration. I've been following it in the news here in Australia and I'm trying to work out why it is sustained. Thanks to the DU-ers from France I'm starting to understand it a little better.

[davepc]

16. The issues are a lot deeper then that

Core religious and cultural frictions running very deep.

French cities spring up immigrant suburbs filled with African and Mid-East Muslims, and then the native French feel the immigrants aren't trying to assimilate and the immigrants feel shut out of mainstream French society (even though they contribute to it via their much needed labor).

When you're forced to maintain your economy by brining in large numbers of immigrants these things are bound to happen.

The next step is the rise of ultra-right nationalist parties.

[supernova]

18. Well, that's the other half of it

Integration issues are long-term and will take generations to figure out. And they need to be worked out at the individual as well as policy levels.

And I'm afraid you're right; far-right parties will interfere (but not stop ultimately) with that process.

[davepc]

19. If birthrates and immigration rates trend the same way

Then things are going to be very bleak for native French culture. The assimilation is going to be the other way around. Culturally African/Mid-Eastern Muslims are going to simply outnumber native French in only a few generations.

The backlash to that will not be pretty.

[supernova]

21. Which sorta goes back to why people emigrate

to western democracies in the first place.

Why emigrate if eventually, you want to turn your new place into the place you ran away from? :shrug:

It takes both sides to make a melting pot society work. So far, that's not happening.

And no, I don't know what the answer is.

[davepc]

22. I can think of lots of reasons to leave Africa and go live in Europe

but thoes things don't necessarily require me to be adopt a love for wine, cheese, gothic cathedrals, and all the thousands of other things that make French culture...French.

I'd bring with me a lot of things that are not French at all, from religion to language and be very happy with them and not feel a great desire to change.

Add on to that the native French basically locking me out of the culture when I try and make inroads; "extra" police attention, racism overt and otherwise...

makings for a powder keg. These riots are laying the groundwork for the Nationalist parties in all of Europe.

Europe needs to get a handle on these issues and quickly, or pretty soon Hitler/Neo-nazi movements talking about 'racial purity' and the like are going to start gaining traction.

That will lead to a militant reaction by the immigrant communities and things will quickly spiral out from there.

Democratic Socialist societies might not be as attractive to Europeans when they realize the only way they can afford them is to import massive numbers of African/MidEastern muslims to pay for it.

[Rich Hunt]

65. yeah

Democratic Socialism is really a bunch of b.s.

You've proven it, by golly.

[davepc]

77. who called it bs?

I called it expensive. It needs a workforce to support it efficiently and distribute the cost of paying for it. In France (and most other places in Western Europe) the birthrate is very low, and the population is aging, more people are leaving the workforce.

That leaves fewer productive workers to shoulder more of the cost of the system.

The French solution to the problem is to have rather liberal immigration, which has worked at keeping the population levels in the country at a place where they can support the economy, but because the immigrant populations are having trouble being integrated into French society and culture (for a variety of reasons on both sides) there are these current tensions which have lead to a week of riots.

After 1975, France's population growth has significantly diminished, being more in tune with the rest of Europe, but it still remains slightly faster than in the rest of Europe, and much faster than in the end of the 19th century or the first half of the 20th century. At the turn of the millennium, population growth in France is the fastest of Europe, matched only by Ireland and the Netherlands. However, it is significantly slower than in North America, where population trends have diverged from Europe after the 1970s. One major difference in the recent growth is that most of the growth since the 1970s derives from Muslim immigration and births rather than growth among the native French.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_France

Don't put words in my mouth, attempted to suggest that I called the French Democratic Socialist economy "b.s." I never said any such thing, and I resent your implication.

If you have a society where everyone benefits from "free" government services you need a large stable workforce that creates the production of the country that is used to pay for it. It's not free. The people pay for it through their taxes. In 2003 taxes accounted for about 45% of Frances GDP. For comparison in the United States taxes account for about 25% of the GDP

Tax-to-GDP ratios provide a useful indicator of the size of the government role in a given country's economy and of the role of the tax system in financing public services and redistributing income. Increases in a country's tax-to-GDP ratio often indicate a greater provision of tax-financed services and/or a greater redistributive role of the tax system.

http://www.finfacts.com/biz10/taxpercentagegdp.htm


If you have a society where more people are being removed from the workforce then are entering into it, then the burden on the producers is pushed higher and higher as they are forced to support more and more people.

The solution is to either cut benefits, or increase the workforce. France chose the later, but face a problem where a big chuck of the workforce is no longer "French". The solution to their problem might cause a situation (over the demographic long term) where the immigrant culture takes over the native one. The immigrants keep coming, and they keeping having children. There are no places for more native French (in the cultural sense) to come from, and the ones already in France simply aren't have as many children as the African immigrants.

[Julius Civitatus]

81. Very well said, though I would like to add...

a few things that I noticed after living in Western Europe for large chunks of my life.

France and the EU are paying for letting big business import cheap labor and bypass the strong labor unions over there. They find this necessary in oder to keep their very expensive welfare state. It' wonderful living there, but it definitely carries an expensive tag in the end. Labor is very regulated and labor unions very, very strong in Europe. European workers fought like hell during decades for those 6 weeks of vacation and universal medical care they get there. Traditionally, the labor market has been very regulated and controlled there.

When the EU took off and Europe became a serious economic contender, the labor needs of the EU changed, in order for them to maintain their lifestyle and be able to compete with the USA and Asian nations.

The solution was to import cheap labor in the form of low paid immigrants from their former colonial areas of influence. France opened the doors to millions of Arab and African immigrants. UK, to Indian, Pakistani and Jamaicans. Spain to Arab and Latin American immigrants, and so on.

Of course, the intention was to get the cheap labor and satisfy the needs of big business. They didn't care about integration, control of immigration, or even figure out alternatives. This has created lots of cultural clashes in Europe, as the newcomers do not integrate in society and live hurdled within their ethnic groups, and the local Europeans resent them because they feel businesses are using cheap foreign labor to bypass all labor laws and cheapen salaries for everyone. That quickly devolves into xenophobia as well. Nobody is happy with this situation. Now these big businesses have recently discovered that outsourcing most of those jobs to third world countries is even cheaper!

So suddenly these countries have literally millions of people of other cultures and ethnic groups living within their borders, not integrated at all, angry, and without jobs. And the locals are angry, resentful and unemployed as well. And it's happening everywhere in the EU, which is making the native Europeans actually flock to ultra-conservative parties (like Le Pen's), which spirals the whole thing even further down the toilet.

It is a HUGE MESS that will not end nicely. Today it's Paris. Last summer, the subway bombings in London. Last year, the train bombings in Madrid. Shootings in Amsterdam... on and on. It's all part of the same phenomenon, and they better get a handle on it.

In my opinion, this is what happens when societies start focusing almost exclusively on the needs of big business, bypassing all social, strategic, and sensible needs of its population. Only big business benefits of such policies; everyone else is left holding the bag.

[kineneb]

95. snarky idea- reverse immigration US to EU

bet there would be any number of us who would be willing to work there. I sure would, being that my study area is medieval and Renaissance music and culture. It would avoid some of the ethnic and religious issues, since so many of US ancestors (all of mine) came from Europe.

[2Design]

23. same problem here when people move to the 'country' to get

their kids away from 'bad' elements that are influencing them. They never look at their kid and themselves and see in the mirror where the problem lies. The kids bring the same problems with them and create the same mess in the new place but mom and dad are blind. The rest of the neighborhood sees the problem

[Surya Gayatri]

34. Well said supernova,

There is blame to be shared on all sides. But, Sarkozy's inflammatory rhetoric certainly hasn't helped to 'calmer les esprits'. SG

[LiberteToujours]

58. Drug dealers aren't scum?

Lighting on fire the cars of the innocent, low-income families residing in these neighborhoods to try to intimidate the police isn't scum-worthy? These people ARE scum, pure and simple. The fact that the issue has deep, complicated causes doesn't these people not scum. I would dare you to be so analytical if this was happening in your neighborhood.

[tocqueville]

29. Merci de cette précision

the story is a pretext

in reality those guys DON'T WANT ANY POLICE PRESENCE in their neighbourhood

a parallell developing story is the lynching to death in front of his wife and kids of a local employee that was taking pictures of street lamps for a local survey.

Sadly some French suburban cities have turned into NO LAW areas. They are the equivalent of some former areas in the US. When Americans were tired of it they voted for Reagan.

We all know what happened later.

[amandabeech]

33. When Americans get tired of it they also voted for Nixon.

In 1968, Nixon ran on a "law and order" platform. That was after Watts in '65, Newark in '66, Detroit in '67, and many smaller riots in '68 after the assassination of the Rev. Dr. Martin Luther King, Jr. There was simply nothing like that in the '70s. Not even the stories that came out of New Orleans matched the reality of some of the stuff that went on in the '60s, although fears stemming from that time surely got us older people very, very agitated.

So far the riots in France have been distinguished from the '60s U.S. riots by the lack of real gun violence. Rubber bullets can surely hurt, but they're not the same as live ammo. I just hope that the situation in France does not deteriorate further.

[Orrin_73]

26. Its a two way street over there

The french hate the immigrants (sarkozy called immigrants scum, go figure) and the immigrants hate the french. Its not a country I would want to live, they (french) are hostile against anyone who's not french. The french should stop seeing france as the center of the universe maybe that would help the french see that there are others outside of france.

[alcibiades_mystery]

35. Advice many (including the "Americans") would do well to take

:eyes:

[Surya Gayatri]

36. Using a rather broad brush, aren't you?

So glad to see there are no gross generalizations or stereotypes in this post! SG

[tocqueville]

39. complete freeper bullshit

France is a country of immigrants exactly like the US and unlike Holland

so please no lessons here

to the difference from other countries we abolished slavery 200 years ago
we never had lynching as a popular Sunday sport
apartheid (a Dutch invention applied on a mass scale in South Africa - does the word Boer sound familiar ?) has never existed here and there was no need for a Rosa Park

if there is a country that believes it's the center of the Universe I can peak out a much bigger one.

There are problems today in ANY country exactly the same way that there are problems in the US, Holland etc... the guys that assassinated Theo Van Gogh in Holland are of course "poor immigrants". And anti-Arabic and anti-Turkish pogroms never happened in Holland either... And the Turks never committed genocide over a million Armenians...
:sarcasm:

And for your record Sarkozy WHO IS A SECOND GENERATION HUNGARIAN IMMIGRANT, never called immigrants "scum", he called scum the drug dealers who set cars ablaze to keep the cops out of their little business.

So check a minimum of facts before you post... and incriminate a WHOLE nation for the misdeeds of a few.

[Orrin_73]

41. Gee, I didn't know there were anti-Turkish pogroms in

Holland, I missed something probably. The immigrant population in france are occasional targets by french.
I never said there were any problems in other countries I was referring to france, just ask any european what they think about the french especially the british. What's got this to do with Turkey???

The french should stop seeing france as the center of the universe maybe that would help the french see that there are others outside of france.
Believe me this view is hold by many people not just by me.

Are you now calling people freeper, because you dont agree with their views. Unf**kingbelievable!!!!!

[tocqueville]

42. Read some facts

http://www.newyorker.com/fact/content/?050103fa_fact1

check any google link about Turks, Muslims, Holland, immigration, arson, pogroms etc... etc... I dare you

The climate is so bad that Holland has become an EMIGRATION country for foreigners

"Believe me this view is hold by many people not just by me"

how many ? 5, 10, 1000, 1 million ?

facts please other than your French teacher

and for a FACT you rant above about "France in general" is EXACTLY what you hear from Freepers. Try to post about France on yahoo boards or at Free republic, they'll use exactly the same "arguments".

[Orrin_73]

43. You again post b*llshit

how many people died at the pogroms??? none. Why because they did not happen.

The climate is so bad that Holland has become an EMIGRATION country for foreigners

total nonsense the only ones emigrating out of Holland are the dutch farmers, who are going to Canada. The Turks that are leaving are retirees the younger generation is more adapted to dutch culture. Im fine over here I know more about Holland then you'll ever know so dont tell me how Holland is!
You dont know anything about Holland, you back-up your claims with debatable links. The link you provided is more about the van Gogh and not about the situation of the Turks. After the van Gogh assasination the moroccans were blamed and not the Turks. Turks are better of here in Holland then in hostile france.
My french teacher has nothing to do with this view it is a known fact that millions think about france like that. I heard and read that at many places. You are the one ranting against anyone critical about france.

[Dutch]

62. Your indignation is pretty rich, given the bigotted nonsense you are

spouting about tocqueville's country, most of which could have come straight out of the conservative republican playbook of hate.

[tocqueville]

83. facts again

"This Country Is Full:" But Is It Starting to Empty?

The Netherlands is one of the most densely populated countries in the world, with 388 people per square kilometer in 2000 according to United Nation (UN) estimates. European Union (EU) Member States, other than the island nation of Malta, have much lower population densities (ranging from Belgium, the highest with 336, to Finland, the lowest with 15). Pim Fortuyn, with his popularity at its zenith, stated in a BBC interview shortly before his death, "I just say, the Netherlands is a small country…we are already overcrowded, there's no more room and we must shut the borders."

However, in 2003, emigration from the Netherlands exceeded immigration to the country for the first time since the early 1980s.

Emigration is defined by Statistics Netherlands as registering a departure for at least eight months out of the following year. Immigration is defined as registering to remain in the Netherlands for at least four months out of the following six months. Both categories can include Dutch nationals.

By Joanne van Selm
Migration Policy Institute

October 2005

http://www.migrationinformation.org/Profiles/display.cfm?ID=341

____________________________________________________________
Over 6,000 Dutch, the majority whom were Moroccans and Turks, have staged Sunday a mass demonstration in Holland's capital Amsterdam to decry the right-wing government's racism and discrimination against minorities, reported Morocco Times' correspondent in Hague.

The demonstration, which started at 13:00, local time, (09:00GMT), was titled “Genoeg is Genoeg” (Enough is Enough), after the name of the movement that organized it.

Demonstrators blame the Dutch right-wing government, particularly the Minister of Immigration and Integration, Rita Verdonk, for inciting hatred and discriminating against them.

http://www.moroccotimes.com/paper/article.asp?idr=6&id=9820


_______________________________________________________________
do a little research and stop denying the facts that bother you

[Name removed]

89. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Dutch]

90. "the Dutch are more open minded than the hateful French"

There you go again.:eyes: Thank God MOST Dutch people are not so closed minded and ignorant as to dismiss an entire nation of people as "hateful".

[callady]

44. It's about abject poverty

It's about cultural primacy

It's about institutional and internalized racist structures

It's about those with too much that won't give up their economic power

It's about dreams deferred

It's about the legacy of colonialism

It's about "The Heart of Darkness"

It's about modern day slavery-The slaves have never been freed in France or US.

[tocqueville]

84. there are no slaves in France today

and there weren't any yesterday either (to the difference from the US). It could have been, but there were no cotton plantations here.

But the problem isn't there.

The rioting is organized by drug dealing gangs feeling they are losing control over some neigboorhoods. Of course they are using a context of poverty and lack of integration in some areas north east of Paris.

Where I live (in the south of France) there are no such problems despite a large muslim community here.

What's happening cannot be compared to the black riots in the US like the watts riots etc...

it's an anti-gang war.

[callady]

86. Of course there are slaves in France

as there are in all industrial countries.
They are called the work force and are paid wages so as to pay the bank owned rent etc.....

Wage-Slavery
Producer-Consumer

Get them to think they are free.

Escape the matrix

I loved my year in Bordeaux. Of course I am no expert but it doesn't take one to see the obvious. The masses plugged into the five day a week regimen are enslaved to their debts and to the owner class in whatever nation-state you describe.

:toast:

[tocqueville]

87. that's a "new"definition of slavery...

you are developing a Marxist standpoint

it was not what I was discussing, but it's OK

[Flagg]

88. The people "rioting" are unemployed

and job seeking is the last thing on their minds.


They're not slaves by any stretch of the imagination.
"Slaves" in France go on strike and use mostly non viloent means to get their message across.
Those guys on the other hand want the "banlieus" to remain islets of lawlessness so their drug-dealing business, illegal activities and their unchecked abuse of France's extremely generous welfare system can continue.
The same people also burn cars when their buddies go to jail for gang raping girls , the infamous "tournante"

I mean, nobody's on their side even the Socialist party whose members are more liberals than the most liberal Democrats in congress.

[Up2Late]

64. "...ask any european what they think about the French esp...the British?

Please! Have you forgotten the Wars that raged for 700+ years (1066-1801) between French and British? Don't you think the British might have developed a bit of resentment toward the French in 735 years?

Here's a page with a list the dates:
<http://www.britishbattles.homestead.com/files/europe/anglofrenchwars.htm>

Not that unusual though. Most people, especially the vast numbers of euro-ignorant Americans, have forgotten the underlying reasons they hate the French, remembering only the last 60 to 90 years of alliance with the French against the Germans.

The French don't Hate immigrants, they fear the loss of nearly 1000 years of "French" culture and identity, which the immigrants threaten to bring about.

BTW, my father is a French born American immigrant. He fled the Nazi Army with his French/American Mother and German Father, both were Jewish. Most of the rest of my Fathers side of the family were not so lucky. My Mother's family fled the British imposed poverty of Ireland, to come to America between 1910-1918.

The War between Holland and France ended in 1795, let's try to keep it that way.

[Flagg]

40. Sarkozy didn't call" immigrants" scum.

He called drug dealers, and local crime lords who terrorize the population of those neighborhoods scum.


He's actually the only French politician who supports some kind of affirmative action for French muslims.

[eowyn_of_rohan]

53. What an inflammatory statement!

Saying "They (the French)" are hostile towards anyone who isnt French is of course a blanket statement and stereotype. I have had as many experiences with French people who feel that way as with those who do NOT, at least in their attitudes towards Americans.

I don't believe the French see their country as the "center of the universe", but they are deservedly proud of their culture,history, and heritage and do not want it diluted and diminished by outside forces whether those be American, Middle Eastern or any other forces. In Paris, the traditional, indepedently owned boulangeries, charcuteries, cafes, etc are going out of business, as the supermarket and fast food chains are thriving. American style fast food is gaining in popularity with French youth and McDonalds ("McDo's") and Starbucks in Paris and elsewhere in France are packed with locals... I don't blame French people for their alarm, anger, and resistance to this takeover. I hate it myself!! I go to France to absorb French culture.

[LiberteToujours]

60. As a Canadian living in France

I can't possibly tell you how wrong you are. The French do not see themselves as the center of the universe and they are certainly not hostile to foreigners. To drug-dealing low-income immigrants who set fire to the cars of non-drug-dealing low-income immigrants who are trying to make an honest living, perhaps they are hostile.

[mainer]

93. A black american friend told me she's treated much better in France

She grew up in the U.S. and works as a chef and part-time singer. She now lives in Paris because she said the French are far more tolerant and accepting of her than she ever felt living in the U.S.

[rodeodance]

71. Have you read the book "EurArabia"?

[Orrin_73]

73. No I haven't

but I know the book, it is written by Bat Ye'or a hatemonger and a zealot. He is one of the favorite authors of the american RW.

[rodeodance]

74. much of it has to with how Muslims have 'taken' over the culture of

France--in the schools, the Univesities. etc.

Then the title.

the book seemed to srart off ok--but as i read it was apparent that there was a lot of resentment toward the brown colored--the Muslims.

She also goes into the history of how France got the oil from the Gulf in exchange for allowing 'cultural exchanges'--but she (sorry I forget the name) thinks it has gone too far (and she is not alone).

[Flagg]

76. As a University student in France

I'd like to know how Muslims have ''taken' over the culture of France in the Universities

LMAO

[gardenista]

79. I simply wish to say that has not been my experience.

The French are the French. This will never change. But I have *never* experienced hostility there. When Americans visit France, and expect to be treated the same way they are in the US, without even trying to speak the language, they invariably come away with that misimpression.

I can only say that without the French, our world would be a dull place.

[ebal]

27. 10% unemployment rates

With a 10% unemployment rate in France more than one thing is a problem they have to deal with.

[Flagg]

38. 9.8% actually

[ebal]

61. 2004 numbers

The 2004 estimate numbers were at 10.1% from:

http://www.cia.gov/cia/publications/factbook/geos/fr.html

That was the newest I could find, I guess it's come down slightly?

[kineneb]

96. ours is really about the same

and higher in certain regions. The US gov cooks the books on how they count the unemployed. Estimates in my county vary from 6% to 12% (official) depending on area, and I always figure that the real rate is double. So the US has no reason to gloat over the so-called unemployment rate. Lies, damned lies and statistics, again.

[enigma000]

37. End the occupation

French out of France!

[AngryAmish]

45. France has some real problems

The cities in the Paris suburbs are real hell-holes. There are literally no-go areas where police do not go. The folks living there say the police are brutal and the cops look at the residents as sub-human.

I think the French could learn a thing or two about urban crime from the US. Really. By and large large scale public housing projects are being pulled down and poor folks are given vouchers to buy housing throughout the area. It seems to have worked. The Robert Taylor Homes were quite similar (cops shot at, etc) here in Chicago. We got rid of them. It was a good thing because concentrating poverty like that so the poor people are out of sight is inhumane.

[hogwyld]

46. Why can't the immigrants

Adopt the culture of the country they live in? In our own country, we had English, German, French, Italian, Irish immigrants come, and they adopted our culture, language, customs as their own. And, they didn't hyphenate their nationalities either, they were simply Americans. So maybe in France, the people coming into that fine country should adopt the customs of their gracious host, and strive to become part of society, instead of insisting the country adopt to them.

[rayofreason]

47. They have adopted...

...the language and many of the customs of France.

Many, if not most, French of North African origin consider themselves French. That is certainly the view of my Tunisian friend who has lived most of her life in Paris, and who speaks English with a pronounced French accent (except for the "r", which is clearly Arabic). France has tried more than other European countries to push integration, such as with the headscarf ban, an un-PC move that would have been slapped down as unconstitutional in the US.

This is not to say that radical Islamist elements are not a problem in France - they are and the Government is moving to counter the threat. But there are deeper problems, like high unemployment, inflexible labor laws, and an elitist academic culture that are probably at the root of the continuing eruption we are seeing.

[eowyn_of_rohan]

55. Many apparently have not adopted the customs

...and do not plan to, nor want to, particularly in the case of many Middle Eastern immigrants. And millions have come into the country in a relatively short time, so not all have yet adopted or adjusted to French culture, or even learned the language. And how many of them had a concrete plan for employment before they arrived? It is certainly a very bad mess all around.....

[hogwyld]

67. We have many similar issues

I like to think that I live in an enlightened area of the country, (SF Bay Area) and there are many places where they speak Spanish, Mandarin, Vietnamese, etc. Some have no interest in learning English or about our culture. I truly fear for the Balkanization of our country one day.

[LisaM]

59. Except that the culture of the U.S. has been shaped by immigration

you can't really compare it to the culture in any older European country. I have been to Paris, and I loved all the little local places, bakeries, delis, coffee shops. If France becomes Wal-Martized, then what hope is there for the rest of us?

[Bacchus39]

riots continue in France

Haven't seen anything on this yet.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20051103/ap_on_re_eu/france_rioting_21;_ylt=AvUq8h4k2mjfK1jFAxlM_EfgelIB;_ylu=X3oDMTBiMW04NW9mBHNlYwMlJVRPUCUl

[waiting for hope]

48. When will it happen here?

The unrest has highlighted the division between France's big cities and their poor suburbs, with frustration simmering in the housing projects in areas marked by high unemployment, crime and poverty.

Just substitute France for America....

[amandabeech]

54. Been there, done that.

I guess that you aren't up on your '60s history:

Watts, '65

Newark, '66

Detroit, '67

ML King Assassination riots, everywhere, '68.

I would really not like to see a repeat.

[waiting for hope]

56. Sorry, my bad,

meant when will it happen in our current time.....wouldn't like to see a repeat either but the divide in this country is growing larger and larger - if Katrina didn't show the elitists how vulnerable a good portion of our population is, well, all I can say is that they are living in a vacuum.

[amandabeech]

57. I agree.

I would never like to see a repeat, but there is much desperation in the land.

[Surya Gayatri]

49. Unfortunately, Interior Minister Sarkozy's

inflammatory rhetoric (broad-brushing all of the youths as 'scum') has poured oil on an already raging fire. His naked Neo-Con ambitions to become President may be his downfall. SG

[Name removed]

50. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[uppityperson]

51. It is poor immigrants rioting over their treatment.

[cliss]

52. Yes. I just read on a Swedish online

newspaper that there is anger over the deaths of 2 teenagers. They were "electrocuted while trying to get away", was all I could make out of the story.

There is rage, and it's starting to flare up. It sounds like these people are living in really bad circumstances.

It's also a fight going on with de Villepin & the other candidate for president. The other one called the teenagers "scum" and that's fueling the fire. De Villepin wants to take a moderate approach.

[Rich Hunt]

66. is there a link?

Is there a link to this Swedish online newspaper?

[tocqueville]

85. the Swedes should remember Rinkeby

and the serial of racist murders there in the 80s they dismissed

1) the kids were not chased by the police, it has bben debunked.
2) the ones there were called scum are the drug dealing gangs

go to the sources

what's going on is an anti gang war

[schmuls]

63. Le Pen

For those of you who are unaware or forgot, the Fascist Le Pen got in as a candidate in the first round of the Presidential election. He ran as a candidate who would stop all immigration and even throw some people out. Many in the nation were shocked and succeeded in voting in Chirac, the lesser of two evils. As a side note, one of the areas of had it's train attacked Thursday was the suburb I visited near Paris a couple of years ago, and it is considered one of the better suburbs (Le Blanc Mesnil). Scary stuff!

[rodeodance]

75. nominated

[fshrink]

78. Sczeczin, Watts, NOLA, Paris, Tokyo Zengakuren...

Different years, different places. Same fight. Incredible how some people still vote with a cobblestone. Those, and there are many, who can't see how this relates to their "life", implicitly vote for their own misery.

[Name removed]

80. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[AngryAmish]

82. Chirac doesn't care about black people

[Orrin_73]

98. Which french politician does???

[Julius Civitatus]

91. Disabled Woman Set Ablaze

Disabled Woman Set Ablaze

A handicapped woman was doused with petrol and set on fire by youths during another night of rioting in Paris. The 56-year-old suffered third degree burns to 20% of her body in the attack.

Witnesses said a youth poured petrol over the woman and then threw a Molotov cocktail on to the bus she was travelling on in the suburb of Sevran.

Other passengers were able to flee but she was unable to escape because of her disabilities.

For the first time, there were signs of copy cat rampages elsewhere in rest of France. (...)

http://www.sky.com/skynews/article/0,,30200-13457760,00.html

This article just ruined my day. I'm really upset over this.

:mad:

[rodeodance]

92. Waves of Arson Attacks Hit Paris Suburbs

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20051104/ap_on_re_eu/france_rioting;_ylt=AhN2oZiZkhfDfqykE2t7vX.s0NUE;_ylu=X3oDMTA2Z2szazkxBHNlYwN0bQ--
Waves of Arson Attacks Hit Paris Suburbs

By JAMEY KEATEN, Associated Press Writer 1 hour, 55 minutes ago

LE BLANC MESNIL, France - Small, mobile groups of youths hit Paris' riot-shaken suburbs with waves of arson attacks, torching hundreds of cars, as unrest entered its second week Friday and spread to other towns in France.

In the eastern city of Dijon, teens apparently angered by a police crackdown on drug trafficking in their neighborhood set fire to five cars, said Paul Ronciere, the region's top government official.

Another 11 cars were burned at a housing project in Salon-de-Provence, near the southern city of Marseille, police said.

Overnight in the Paris region, 420 cars were set ablaze, up from previous nights, the Interior Ministry said. It said five police were slightly injured by thrown stones or bottles.

But unlike previous nights, there were few direct clashes with security forces, no live bullets fired at police, and far fewer large groups of rioters, said Jean-Francois Cordet, the top government official for the worst-hit Seine-Saint-Denis suburb northeast of Paris.........

[William769]

94. & here I thought only America was fucked up.

:shrug: