AP: Saudi Teacher Sentenced to 750 Lashes

[Tesha]

http://sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/n/a/2005/11/17/international/i091005S13.DTL

Saudi Teacher Sentenced to 750 Lashes

By TAREK AL-ISSAWI, Associated Press Writer

A Saudi high-school chemistry teacher accused of discussing religion
with his students has been sentenced to 750 lashes and 40 months in
prison for blasphemy, officials said Thursday.

The court ruling was condemned by human rights activists, who said
Mohammed Salamah al-Harbi was being imprisoned for having an "open
discussion" with students.

Al-Harbi was convicted of questioning and ridiculing Islam,
discussing the Bible and defending Jews, judicial officials said
Thursday on condition of anonymity because they were not authorized
to talk to the media.

Prosecutors acted after a complaint by students and al-Harbi's
fellow teachers, officials said. The court in the northern
province of al-Qassim heard the case Saturday in a six-hour trial.

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[Tesha]

1. Our good friends and Bush's kissing cousins are at it again! (NT)

[Jacobin]

2. Can someone live through 750 lashes?

egads

[Tesha]

5. I suspect the theory is "A few at a time" spread across 40 months.

Otherwise, "No."

Tesha

[happyslug]

10. In the days of Sail, such punishments were common

Now the biggest objections to Corporal punishment prior to the mid-1800s was from the lower Classes, Corporal Punishment had been part of education since Greek and Roman times..

You can even trace the Catholic Church's reputation for using Corporal Punishment to the days of Classical Greece. This belief in corporeal punishment was reinforced by Roman Tradition from the Days of the Republic and the adoption of Christianity seems NOT to have stopped such punishment (Nor increased it). On the other hand in the days from the fall of the Roman Republic to the near collapse of the Roman Empire in the 3rd century AD, corporal punishment INCREASED (For example under the Republic a Freeman could not be whipped, by 200 AD he could be).

While the educated classes liked corporal punishment, the German "Barbarians" of the late Roman Empire did not. For this reason from around 500 AD to 1500 AD you had two rule on corporal punishment, one for the educated elites who used corporal punishment as part of their education process, and the other for the 95% of the population that were peasants who not only opposed but rejected corporeal punishment (Slaves were a different matter, but slavery was dieing out as the Roman Empire turned to Christianity thus while Slavery was known, during the period 500-1500 not the widespread institution it had been in the days of the Roman Empire).

With the raise of professional Armies and Navies in the Renaissance (and a revival of Greek and Roman educational traditions during the same time period) corporal punishment made a comeback into the Military. By the 1700s it had reached the level of 750 -1000 lashes for even minor infractions. The punishment had to be endured while conscience so a Doctor was always present to make sure that the sailor (or Soldier) was Conscience but also to make a determination that any more lashes would cause death (At such time the punishment would be stopped till the sailor or Soldier recovered then re-started till the Sailor or Soldier had received the full number of lashes).

The movement away from Corporal punishment started in the late 1700s as more and more lower class people started to entered the Military do to the Napoleonic Wars. This class of people brought into the Military opposition to corporal punishment and when some reached high ranks refused to use it (and had as effective Military units and those units hat retained the use of the Lash, for Example Daniel Morgan during the Revolution refused to lash anyone under his command, for he had been whipped in 1754 and did not like it, yet Morgan was viewed as the most effective light infantry commander of the Revolution).

This growing opposition continued till the lash was abolished in the late 1800s (Legally whipping stayed legal in the US Navy till the 20th, but had NOT been used for decades when Congress got around to abolish it). Sometime it took a practical whipping to abolish the punishment (For Example during the Homestead Strike of 1892 a Soldier was hanged by his thumbs for saying "Three Cheers for the man who shot Frick", this horrified the People of Pennsylvania that such punishment were abolished right afterward, even through this was the first time it had been done since the Civil War).

My comment is you can survive such punishment and such punishment was done even in this country not that long ago.

[jwcomer]

15. Three cheers for such an informative post. n/t

[happyslug]

23. Notice I used the time period 500-1500

Around the time of the Reformation (And seems to be tied in with the Black Death of the 1300s and the subsequent drop in population more than the Reformation) you had an increase is the use of Corporal punishment against the Peasants. Thus prior to the French Revolution you hear of Peasants being pulled apart by two horses for NOT bowing down to their Master (Most such laws were abolished during the Revolution). One of the problem of the "Age of Reason" was this increase in the use of Corporal Punishment. The increase matches more with increase knowledge and use of Roman law as opposed to customary law than any other single factor. Religion seems to have no effect, both Catholics and Protestant used Corporeal Punishment as did the Deists that became so popular in the 1700s. Now why adoption of Roman rules? The best explanation (Beside the elites of the age reading to much Roman History, which is another factor) is that Sociality was matching the same social stresses that Rome Faced from 200 BC to 200 AD, more and more wealth concentrated into the smaller and smaller wealthy elite, who needed to keep the peasants in line by fear and force. Rome did not have what we would call a Middle class thus you had no wealth independent of the elites. Rome thus did not have a Revolution but dissolved when faced with foreign foes for the Peasants were NOT willing to fight for "Rome", a Rome that only existed to exploit them.

Now he Late Roman Elites would stay in power till about 900 AD when the situation became so bad that the New German Rulers finally kicked out the old Roman Elites, took over their lands and wealth, giving most to the peasants in exchange for the Peasants fighting for the Germans (Or supplying labor, goods and money to the New Germanic Elites to protect the peasants). This was the start of True Feudalism and once adopted in one country, every other European Country had to adopt it or be conquered. Feudalism permitted larger armies than the mercenary Armies of Ancient Rome, but at the cost of Society having not only to consider the desires of the Ruling Elites but also the Peasants.

The reforms of the 900s moved Western Europe from a backwater under constant attack from the rest of Europe, Africa and Asia to the Area of Europe which could support and supply the largest armies of the time period. This lead to the Crusades and the wars of the Renaissance.

By the 1700s Europe not only had an effective middle class (who also used Corporal Punishment like the elites) but divided among various Countries, each defended by a large and powerful Army (Even the smallest was larger than the Roman Army during the Empire). These armies were needed by each Country for each wanted to be independent of any other. Discipline followed Roman Rules for these tended to be hired Mercenaries (Through more and more Draftees were used as the 1700s went on as less and less people wanted to enlist AND the countries needed larger and larger Armies to fight their enemies).

These two extremes came to a head during the French Revolution. The need for larger armies meant that the Country fighting the War had to raise Troops to do the Fighting. You can only dragoon so many people before the cost of keeping the Draftees in your army gets to much. The French solved this problem by keeping the Draft BUT addressing the wants and needs of the Peasants. This made the French Revolutionary Army pro-peasants and thus the Drafted Peasants had less reasons to desert (and were fighting for their own benefit so even fought better).

With this movement from hired mercenaries and Dragooned Draftees to a Universal Service Army of Revolution, the wants of the Peasants had to be addressed, thus corporal punishment started to be reduced during this time period (Not only in the French Army but the rest of the European Army and even the British Navy, but not the British Army). Corporal Punishment was retained but the Prussians reduced it further after they adopted universal Education right after the Napoleonic Wars. This trend continued as more and more Countries became more and more dependent on Universal Military Service (UMS) as opposed to Mercenaries (With Mercenaries Army retaining Corporal Punishment longer than UMS Armies). For example the British Army retained most of its Corporeal punishment till WWI when its army became more a UMS army instead of the Mercenary army it had been previously. The US army did the same, except it started to abolish most corporal punishment during the Civil War when the US Army changed into a UMS army from the Mercenary army it had been previously (and would return to after the Civil War, stopping most punishment reforms till after 1900).

Thus it is amazing the Increase in corporal punishment during the "Age of Reason" (Roughly 1648 till 1789) and its decline as armies (and schools) became more and more Universal (Roughly 1789 till 1914).

[American Cabalist]

16. 50 per week for 15 weeks

Medieval.

[SammyWinstonJack]

17. Something to look forward too.

Just the thought would make one go insane, I would think.

[American Cabalist]

20. Healing?

How long does it take for the body to heal up from 50 lashes? I don't think a week would be long enough! His back would still be open and barely scabbed over. I mean, each week, it would get worse and worse. I don't know how the body can survive that kind of ongoing abuse.

I agree - the horror and dread (not to mention constant agony)would make a normal person go insane.

[happyslug]

27. No, in medieval days such a whipping would not be Tolerated

But such punishment became the norm in the West only in the "Age of Reason" i.e. 1648 till 1789. Prior to that such punishment were just not done.

[northzax]

26. it probably depends on the lash

one with a weighted tip would probably kill you.

yes, as it is mentioned above, these punishements were given, and they were often fatal (in the days before anti-biotics, basically flaying someone alive was usually fatal. as Winston Churchill once mentioned: "don't talk to me about Naval History, it's nothing but rum, sodomy and the lash"

[Kolesar]

3. They would probably behead him if he taught evolution

Islam at its most disgusting.

[NashVegas]

4. See? This Is What Happens When You Bring Religion Into Science Class

Here in the US, some people are encouraging science teachers to talk about religion! They hate us for our freedoms.

:sarcasm:

[DaveColorado]

8. Pat Robertson's wet dream

For the new Dover school board

[Blue_Roses]

6. this is terrible!

good grief:cry: how sad.

[distantearlywarning]

7. Somebody should post this over at Free Republic.

And mention that these are our allies. The bible thumpers will go nuts.

:evilgrin:

[Mike Daniels]

25. Freeper response to this story

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1524316/posts

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1522850/posts


Some comments regarding our relationship with SA in the second post but mostly "religion of peace my ass" comments and some amazing disconnect as to how Christianity treated adherents of different religions in the past.

[Strawman]

9. Wonder how they came up with that number

I'm guessing somewhere in some archaic text "God" said to give a blasphemer that many lashes.

[David__77]

11. America's wonderful ally!

Every U.S. president has been oh so cozy with this fabulous land of freedom!

[gulfcoastliberal]

12. We're working on it,, Mr A-Harbi

Not bringing democracy but instituting theocracy.

[Orsino]

13. Freedom is on the march. n/t

[American Cabalist]

14. The back story

This teacher had refused to allow some of his students take a re-test in his science class. In revenge, they accused him of anti-terrorism rhetoric and also witchcraft (about 18 months ago). Recently the Saudi government instituted what amounts to "sensitivity" training, by teaching the dangers of radicalism and extremism (exactly what this teacher was doing 18 months ago). However, the teacher still stands convicted and sentenced.

His 750 lashes are meted out as 50 lashes for 15 weeks.

[Walt Starr]

18. They beat their own people

When do we invade?

[Moloch]

19. Oh. My. God.

This is the state we support.

Defending Jews is a crime in Saudi Arabia? Fuck the oil, the U.S. should cut its ties to Saudi Arabia until it does away with laws like this and improves its human rights record.

[American Cabalist]

21. Hear, hear! n/t

[progressivebydesign]

22. Spreading democracy to everywhere we need oil.

So, are the journalists in our country basically ignorant or corrupt? I'm trying to decide. Is the death of journalism because of the crappy TV news shows that ignore the fact that most of the 9/11 terrorists were Saudis, and that Bush's closest friends run that country, and that they actually have worse human rights than many countries we have denounnced?

It boggles the mind. For god's sake! They are imprisoning and whipping a science teacher for (supposedly) speaking out against Islam. And they are our friend, WHY???????????????

[ENomine]

24. Oh great.

Just so you all know, 750 lashes is a death sentence.