VATICAN OFFICIAL REFUTES INTELLIGENT DESIGN

[powergirl]

Hmmm. What's Rick "Box turtle" Santorum going to say now. Since I am Catholic, and usually cringe whenever there is Vatican "news," this is at least enlightening!! Someone needs to ask our president if he thinks the Vatican is wrong on this one (apparently he ignores the anti death penalty and anti war stuff)


http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20051118/ap_on_re_eu/vatican_evolution;_ylt=Aj6DcDt7_lr5csz7eWwePLus0NUE;_ylu=X3oDMTA3MzV0MTdmBHNlYwM3NTM-


VATICAN CITY - The Vatican's chief astronomer said Friday that "intelligent design" isn't science and doesn't belong in science classrooms, the latest high-ranking Roman Catholic official to enter the evolution debate in the United States.


The Rev. George Coyne, the Jesuit director of the Vatican Observatory, said placing intelligent design theory alongside that of evolution in school programs was "wrong" and was akin to mixing apples with oranges.

"Intelligent design isn't science even though it pretends to be," the ANSA news agency quoted Coyne as saying on the sidelines of a conference in Florence. "If you want to teach it in schools, intelligent design should be taught when religion or cultural history is taught, not science."




:popcorn:

[flowomo]

1. oh, those Jesuits... always asking to be burned at the stake!

[On the Road]

30. Never Met a Dumb Jesuit

They take their learnin' seriously.

[flowomo]

34. they did all right by me!

went to a Jebbie high school.

[Broken_Hero]

50. so it seems...:)

[jsamuel]

2. Santorum reversed his position

seriously, like a week ago... must of been Dover

[powergirl]

7. Oh yeah, I forgot about that

I guess that was the same time he said "mistakes were made" at the Whitehouse. I hate Santorum - loser. When he loses the senate gig, can he get a real job? Does he have any transferable skills?:think:

[Liberaler]

9. He can be a restroom attendant...

since he is used to having his head up his ass most of the time, he can stand the smell! ;-)

[Roland99]

33. Veternarian?

;)

[aquart]

3. Wow. Talk about a change of pope.

[davidinalameda]

4. maybe this will start a split between the fundie Catholics

and the fundie RWers

[MADem]

26. That was my first thought...they'll go back to their old meme, that

the Catholics worship three deities and are a cult!!!

Seems like there is a LOT of dividing going on lately--what with religion, the war, the GOP itself...which, hopefully, will be followed by a little conquering by the Democratic Party!

[BlueInPhilly]

5. Pat Robertson...

in a separate statement said that Father Coyne should not expect God to help him in times of trouble because he just rejected God...

[area51]

36. LOL.

Welcome to DU, BlueInPhilly.

[Broken_Hero]

51. welcome to DU :hi:

[lovuian]

6. Church has learned to let science be they had to apologize

for Galileo!!!

[NoAmericanTaliban]

8. one out of three isn't bad..

I'm Catholic as well & like to point out the hypocrisy about being anti-abortion but pro-war & pro-death penalty. The Right Wing 'Christians' like Catholics who are anti-abortion but not the rest of it. Talk about putting blinders on...

[powergirl]

10. Don't those "right wing" Catholics remember

when those nasty evangelicals, with whom they now party with, used to HATE Catholics and called us non-Christian idol worshipers. I guess they forgot about that too. My kids go to Catholic school and they are in fact taught, gasp!, evolution. The only time Genesis is mentioned is in Mass and religion class - not science. Peace be with you.O8)

[fortyfeetunder]

39. Yes, when the KKK was in full swing

Among their enemies were Catholics. I remember that as a young'un and couldn't understand it.

But as has been said before, "politics makes strange bedfellows"

[AngryOldDem]

40. There's been no change of heart

>>>when those nasty evangelicals, with whom they now party with, used to HATE Catholics>>>

Never fear, they still hate us. I cringe whenever I see this unholy alliance between the fundies and Catholics, Catholics who should know better.

[rosesaylavee]

23. Hey, you still have *cannons in the basement? n/t

*canons

Used to be the rumor when I was growing up Catholic. My mom used to say yes, we are planning on taking over the country with them.

[redqueen]

11. Quick... who knows of any Republican "Cafeteria Catholics" on this issue?

:7

[powergirl]

12. PAT BUCHANNON

JEB BUSH - I'll think of some more later.

[redqueen]

13. Just have to find out how many of these are for ID

and then we can get to work bashing their "cafeteria catholic" status, and maybe lobby to have them denied communion!

Senate Republicans: Sam Brownback, Kansas; James Bunning, Kentucky; Susan Collins, Maine; Michael DeWine, Ohio; Peter Domenici, New Mexico; Mel Martinez, Florida; Lisa Murkowski, Alaska; Rick Santorum, Pennsylvania; John Sununu, New Hampshire; David Vitter, Louisiana; George Voinovich, Ohio.

House Republicans: Bob Beauprez, Colorado; Sherry Boehlert, New York; John Boehner, Ohio; Kevin Brady, Texas; Ginny Brown-Waite, Florida; David Camp, Michigan; Mike Castle, Delaware; Steve Chabot, Ohio; Chris Cox, California; Lincoln Diaz-Balart, Florida; Mario Diaz-Balart, Florida; Phil English, Pennsylvania; Michael Ferguson, New Jersey; Mike Fitzpatrick, Pennsylvania; Mark Foley, Florida; Jeff Fortenberry, Nebraska; Luis Fortuno, Puerto Rico; Vito Fossella, New York; Virginia Foxx, North Carolina; Phil Gingrey, Georgia; Gil Gutknecht, Minnesota; Mark Green, Wisconsin; Melissa Hart, Pennsylvania; Kenny Hulshof, Missouri; Henry Hyde, Illinois.

Also, Walter Jones Jr., North Carolina; Bobby Jindal, Louisiana; Mark Kennedy, Minnesota; Peter King, New York; Steve King, Iowa; Joe Knollenberg, Michigan; Ray LaHood, Illinois, Frank LoBiondo, New Jersey; Dan Lungren, California; Connie Mack, Florida; Michael McCaul, Texas; Thaddeus McCotter, Michigan; Patrick McHenry, North Carolina; John McHugh, New York; Timothy Murphy, Pennsylvania; Bob Ney, Ohio; Anne Northup, Kentucky; Devin Nunes, California; Butch Otter, Idaho; Richard Pombo, California; Jon Porter, Nevada; George Radanovich, California; Rick Renzi, Arizona; Ileana Ros-Lehtinen, Florida; Ed Royce, California; Paul Ryan, Wisconsin; Joe Schwarz, Michigan; Clay Shaw, Florida; Chris Smith, New Jersey; John Sullivan, Oklahoma; John Sweeney, New York; Patrick Tiberi, Ohio; and James Walsh, New York.

[mykpart]

49. And then there's Scolia, Bill O'Reilly, and (I think) Bob Novak.

Not legislators but RW spokesmen.

[HockeyMom]

18. Santorum

[HockeyMom]

14. I was taught Evolution in Catholic School 40 years ago.

That the Catholic Church can support evolution is nothing NEW. These Evangelical Fundies need to get a GRIP. Not only not all RELIGIONS don't agree with them, not even all CHRISTIAN religions agree with them lock, stock, and barrel.

[Monkey see Monkey Do]

15. ditto (although only 10 years ago)

same with this stuff about Old Testament literalism.

[VegasWolf]

21. You are younger by a couple of years, I was taught evolution very

grudgingly. To me, evolution made sense. That was one of the may reasons that I left the church, the primary reason being the teaching that unless one was catholic one could not get into heaven. They were wrong on that too.

[XanaDUer]

41. Me, too.

Never any mention of anything else in Biology classes. We had a first-rate teacher, too.

[Thom Little]

16. Catholics have always been against ID

It's only the fundamentalist lunatics that go for this swill.

[Barkley]

17. Recognizing ID a science would compete with Catholicism

ID as a science, it would probably be taught in Catholic schools and challenge Catholic doctrine.

The Catholic school I attended taught Darwin's theory of evolution but in Science class not religion class.

ID as a religion, the Church can simply ignore it and even condemn it.

ID as a science would would require Catholics to come up with comparable
'science' based theories on God/ evolutions

[Ouabache]

28. If taught as a religion Catholicism will dismiss ID as

"too speculative." Don't you love it.

On the other hand, as the one Jesuit mentioned, if it is taught as part of a cultural history class, I think it will have to be presented as another in an ARRAY of cultures. This is the last thing the fundies want, the actual possibility that their kids will be exposed to the diversity of the world.

[jody]

19. Robertson can add Catholics to Episcopalians, Presbyterians, & Methodists.

"You say you're supposed to be nice to the Episcopalians and the Presbyterians and the Methodists and this, that, and the other thing. Nonsense, I don't have to be nice to the spirit of the Antichrist." -- Pat Robertson

[enough]

20. At last, some intelligence.

[Initech]

22. -1 for the Christofascists!!!

I always knew that "intelligent" design was nothing more than an attempt to get Creationism taught in classrooms.

:woohoo: :woohoo:

[dflprincess]

24. John Paul II once said he thought evolution was more than a theory

Lapsed Catholic that I am, I always remembered when I agreed with him. It happened so rarely.

[nickgutierrez]

25. Excellent point by Coyne:

"If you want to teach it in schools, intelligent design should be taught when religion or cultural history is taught, not science."

Creationism stories have a place in history class, in theology class, in philosophy class. It does not have a place in science class - and no matter what its supporters might claim, ID and creationism are one and the same.

[NAO]

27. Roman Catholic Church was bitch-slapped one too many times by science

They have gone down HARD hundreds of times on thousands of individual matters that are now universally accepted without any dispute from anybody.

Not even hard-core fundy nut-jobs like Falwell and Robertson dispute that Earth is a sphere or that it revolves around the Sun, but the Roman Catholic Church is ON RECORD aggressively disputing those claims.

I'll give them credit for learning from experience not to speak dogmatically on matters of fact about the world.

***

The History of Warfare Between Science and Theology in Christendom
by Andrew D. White (2 volumes, 1898)
http://www.infidels.org/library/historical/andrew_white/Andrew_White.html
or
http://abob.libs.uga.edu/bobk/whitewtc.html
or buy it here
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0879758260?v=glance

[tenshi816]

29. It's just obvious to anyone sensible, don't you think?

My two sons are in Catholic school, and they've always been taught a sort of watered-down intelligent design, but it's also always been taught in their Religious Education classes, and not in their science classes.

Even then, ID has only been briefly touched upon. Religious Education is part of the national curriculum in the UK, so it's required that my children take the course alongside everyone else in school, but at least if they have to study ID, it's in a forum where it belongs - one that's based on faith, not science. Thankfully, their science teachers only teach science. If they started mixing up their science and religious education teaching, they'd definitely hear from me.

On an unrelated note, my younger son told me yesterday that in his Religious Education class they're currently studying Islam. In some ways, yes, the Catholic church has become enlightened.

[HockeyMom]

31. Comparative Religion/Theology

Catholic High Schools teach the above. It was called Religion Class back 40 years ago, but we didn't sit around reading the Bible or even only studying OUR religion. We learned about ALL the major religions. Yes, even Islam.

I remember even asking the Nuns and Priests why we had to take this. I challenged them a lot in school, most of the time to their great chagrin. The answer I got on this one was that you cannot argue in favor of your own faith if you don't know what the other religions are all about. It's a double edged sword though. Because if you are encouraged to question and challenge other religions, it can also cause you to challenge and question YOUR OWN, which is what I did.

I guess that is why the Fundies what their followers to be mute and ignorant.

[onehandle]

32. That's the Catholic School I remember.

My experience was very Pro-Science, Intelligent about the content of the Bible, and open to study of other faiths. Other peoples' faiths were respected as they should be.

My chemistry teacher (a priest) would have some pretty pointed words about "intelligent design".

[VegasWolf]

45. Respect for other religions certainly was not true 40 years ago!

I was taught that unless one was catholic one could not get into heaven.

[HockeyMom]

52. True, but not Hell either

There was Purgatory, unique concept to the Catholic Church. They used to say that people of other religions who lead good lives but weren't Catholic, were not going to "burn in the fires of Hell" for not accepting Catholicism, or even Jesus at all. They were relegated to the in between Heaven and Hell state of Purgatory. I was even told that after a certain amount of time(?) they could even "graduate" to Heaven.

I am surprised you never learned this in school.

[tenshi816]

37. I didn't know that about Catholic schools in the past.

I'm Catholic myself, but didn't attend Catholic schools when I was growing up, so didn't know this. I thought teaching about other religions was a fairly new development, but then I went to public school in Georgia and didn't have any religious classes at all there (and didn't suffer for not having it in school).

I like what you were told about not being able to "argue in favor of your own faith if you don't know what the other religions are all about", and find it odd when people think Catholics don't ask challenging questions about our own, and other, religions.

Agree with you about the fundies - my stepmother is a rabid fundamentalist who swallows everything the Southern Baptists tell her, no matter how outlandish it is, without question. As far as she's concerned, if it comes from the Southern Baptist Convention, then it might as well have been whispered to her by God Himself.

[truthisfreedom]

35. I think that it's pretty special that the Vatican has a Chief Astronomer.

i mean, i don't have one. i'd like one, though...

[powergirl]

42. Pat Robertson is just jealous that he doesn't have an astronomer

We better not give him any ideas or he'll scare up some nutjob "astronomer" that can tell us, when he looks in his telescope, the earth is flat and the rest of the flat celestial bodies are revolving around our planet.O8)

[genieroze]

38. Where is Torquemada when you need him.

:sarcasm:

[goforit]

43. LOL!!!!......I guess the tide IS most definitely turning.

[bhuddaboy]

44. It's Almost As If....

...this response was designed by intelligence!

[ngGale]

46. LOL...

:popcorn:

Welcome to DU - bhuddaboy - :hi:

[Trajan]

47. The Catholics had already accepted that Evolution ...

at least on a small scale, is a valid science .... They did so in an Encyclical published on or about 1996 ....

[Spathi]

48. trogan

what is that pic of? Randy Rhodes and someone? Where is it from? what are they doing?

[TriMetFan]

53. Oh boy I got into a very heated argument

with a co-worker about this yesterday. He is a ex-Catholic and he knows I'm a devoted Franciscan Catholic. He thinks ID should be taught in school and I just told him that the wacko-right just needs to open up their own schools and that ID doesn't belong in any public school. So he asked me why Catholics didn't open up their schools to none Catholics and I had to just laugh at him. I told him that 10% of the kids in my kids school were not Catholics and that I didn't think that people like him would like for their kids to go to a Catholic school because science was taught and that the Catholic Church doesn't think the earth is flat any longer. The only thing he could do was to yell at me that he thinks that gays should not be aloud to get married and the Catholics were going to hell. He thought the he was going to hurt me because I'm gay and I just laughed at him. I told him that the only one that has hurting marriage was him since he has been divorce and ID was the work of the devil. He really got pissed and stormed out of our break room. What a wacko.