Teen's heart fails after run from bullies.

[HEyHEY]

Before he collapsed and died, three weeks shy of his 14th birthday, Alec Thom was running away from a group of other young boys who were teasing him.

Alec's shattered family and the Vancouver police can agree on that much.

Alec's family and the police say the slight, shy teenager ran from these boys, who were between 12 and 13, just after he got off the bus on Broadway. The police say it was a game that went wrong and Alec died of a genetic heart problem.

But Alec's family say he died after running five blocks to escape two boys who were chasing him with firecrackers.

http://www.canada.com/vancouver/story.asp?id=CD4E0A01-108E-471D-8BE3-5480D1929FC5

Sad story.

[RuB]

1. involuntary manslaughter or some crime against this boy should apply.

A message has to be sent to the thugs that make up too large a population of America. Their parents should be held accountable too.

[Thinman12]

2. Huh?

This happened in Canada, not America.

[RuB]

4. Sorry I was reliving my childhood. I fought my way

through grades 6 and 7.

[LeftistGorilla]

25. if it were in America...

he would have been chased with guns instead of fire crackers...

[Throckmorton]

30. As was once made painfully clear to me, in Alberta in 1988,

I was in Hanna working on a power plant, and asked the Bartender to exchange some "American Money" for Canadian Money. He pointed out the "Canada is in America too. You mean US Dollars for Dollars Canadian". I got quite redfaced.

[Guaranteed]

45. Shoulda asked him if he considers himself

an American.
If I move to Canada, I sure won't.

[Bertha Venation]

52. but the bartender made an excellent point

[bluestateguy]

3. Tough new anti-bullying laws are needed

A few months or years in an adult prison ought to teach these boys that bullying is wrong.

[HEyHEY]

5. well

I mean these are young kids, they never inteneded to kill anyone. I agree they should be punished...but I bet you they feel horrible, and have maybeeven been traumatized by this.

[RuB]

8. Yes they're always traumatized when their caught

or something like this happens. But you can bet your sweet ass they weren't when they were chasing this boy.

[HEyHEY]

9. Yeah

Bu I chased kids to, and I got chased by kids. It's part of growing up. Asking kids not to do thins like this is an impossible dream. That's what makes it so tragic.

[RuB]

14. The difference between my childhood and my childrens childhood

If someone is harrassing my kids, I get involved and stop it. My father didn't, he made me fight, I hated it and eventually ended up hating him (though I don't now, we reconciled). I just amazed everyone is saying its the fault of the little boy who died.

[HEyHEY]

15. who's blaming him?

I'm not. Do you mean the article?

[RuB]

17. Yes. But

If you don't demand that the bullies are held accountable somehow then you are blaming the boy who died.

[HEyHEY]

19. that's a silly way to twist someones thoughts around

Sometimes things just happen. Young kids bully others, it happens, it sucks but it happens. I would say it is their fault, had they not chaed him , he'd b alive today.

But their intent was not to kill him. This is the kind of thing that happens all the time and can't be stopped. We can try, and in doing so diminish the number of incidents but it will always be there.

[RuB]

20. I guess if they twisted the heads off little kitty cats THEN

you'd be outraged and demand they be held accountable! That children will be children excuse is what gets other children killed.

[HEyHEY]

31. No, I hate cats

;-)

[sasquatch]

33. Actually I disagree

It seems to me that he had a herat condition so it sounds like he could've very likely died in gym class. If it would've happened there should we blame his playmates or gym teacher? No, they arn't criminaly neglegent. Niether are the boys no should they be punished for harassing the other child for fire crackers? Yes but resonably not grotesqly like some courts around where I live like to sometimes. I think his death shall be held in civil court istead of criminal court.

[HEyHEY]

35. I think you and I have te same keyboard

Yah gotta push too hard to make the letters come up - ;-)
It will be interesting to see what happens though.

[Name removed]

50. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[DoNotRefill]

10. Yup...that'll help...

turn them into career criminals....

[stevedeshazer]

21. Knee,

meet jerk.

[sasquatch]

34. How true

and funny as well.

LET'S GET THE KNUSE STRING'EM UP

;)

[saigon68]

44. I'm sure the Pedophiles in the ADULT Prison are getting hot over that

Nothing like a little forced rape in a prison to "Straighten out" a young man.

[atre]

57. These kids wouldn't go to adult prison eom

nm

[saigon68]

60. In Wisconsin at age 17 they are there.

They don't protect them very well there either.

[AP]

6. Eggshell skull. Those kids could be civilly liable for death

Although people don't realize it, parents ARE NOT responsible for their childrens' negligence (the parents would have to be somehow negligent to be liable). However, you can get a judgement against the kids and renew it until the kids have some assets to pay it.

That's what I'd do.

[HEyHEY]

7. I agree

People foget kids are human and have amind of their own. Had their parens been there and cheered them on...different story.

[hang a left]

11. Yeah but, remember something, children are absolutely

perfect when they arrive here on earth. It is the parents that ef them up. I am not trying to brag or anything but my boys would never be that cruel to anyone or anything, human or animal.

[HEyHEY]

12. As far as you know

Think about how many times you've seen parents give the "Not my chld rant" to police after little johnny got caught shoplifting.

Whenever I in serious shit as a kid, my folks always gave me the "we didn't raise you to be like this rant"

[hang a left]

13. I am not saying my kids are perfect or would never make a mistake.

My point is that hatred and cruelty are learned behaviors. Especially my youngest, could never intentionally hurt anyone. He just couldn't, his heart is too big and too beautiful.

[JNelson6563]

49. kudos to you!

I to have raised my kids to be non-violent and compassionate. Not only have I taught them not to malign others but also not to stand idly by if another does so....

You should have seen them during their first few years of public school. Stunned is a good word. Couldn't believe how violent the kids were (even the real little ones).

Sad.

Julie

[teach1st]

18. Bullying can be decreased

The behaviors that cause and the behaviors that enable bullying can be addressed and bullying can be decreased, but it takes a consistant and strong adult intervention. In a school setting, bullies and their victims, as well as the general school population, need to learn to change their behaviors.

In my considerable years of working with kids in schools and in psychiatric centers, I can think of only two bullies among way too many whose parents understood that their kids were bullies (or even believed that bullying was a problem) and helped us work to change the bullying behavior. Most parents in my particular area (poor and blue collar, with a deep mistrust of authority) defend their bullies against overwhelming evidence.

The belief that bullying is an inevitable part of childhood, that "boys will be boys," (there are tons of girl bullies) and that there's nothing adults can do but teach their children to fight back, certainly helps bullying flourish.

Without adult guidance and intervention children can assume all kinds of destructive behavior - maybe it's natural, but it can be addressed and eased.

http://ericcass.uncg.edu/virtuallib/bullying/bullyingbook.html

[dsc]

24. What the kids did though is willful misconduct

which the parents can be held responsible for. But the legal, and moral, problem here is forseeability. It is utterly unreasonable to expect middle schoolers to forsee that a fellow middle schooler will die of heart failure upon being chased.

[atre]

56. True, but...

There's always the negligent supervision claim, although I agree it'd be a very difficult case to make.

[RandomKoolzip]

16. Jesus, that's fucking sad....

Awful.

I often got harrassed and bullied as a kid (I've always been overweight, and I've always hated sports, etc.) and I gotta say to anyone who advocates punishing these chaser with jail time, that's just wrong, too. That'll fuck those kids up forever and probably make 'em much more violent....As one who got bullied A LOT, As I grew older I understood the motivations of my tormentors and realized most of them simply didn't know any better, or would grow up to regret what they ahd done, etc. In high school, I became friends with some of the very same kids who beat me up in junior high. These kids never meant to kill that other kid....

Jesus, that's just really sad.

[RuB]

22. Lifes a crap shoot in the animal world

the stronger animal survives the weaker animal gets eaten. I would like to see that mentality become extinct in the human race. Holding those who terrorize others accountable is the first step towards a civilized society.

[dsc]

23. This is a sad case all the way around

I certainly recall a pretty brutal middle school and early high school experience. But I can't say these kids are at fault here. This was a tragic but unforseeable consequence of idiotic behavior. No one, not even the kid's family, knew the kid had a heart condition. One would hope the bullies have learned a lesson they will never forget. Sending them to prision won't do anything and would be simply unjust. And I say that as one who got beaten on and humillated pretty regularly when I was the victim's age.

[hang a left]

26. Yes putting children in an adult prison not only should never be

done, regardless of the act, and it is not the answer here. These kids are 12 and 13. Nobody should be punished for life for mistakes made in adolesence, for the same reasons I believe children should not be tried as adults.

The impact that this event will have on their life will be enormous. I wouldn't be surprized if we see a news story sometime in the years that come, about them committing suicide, or some tragic demise. I am not trying to minimize what they have done, but kids don't really ponder upon consequences, especially ones as awful as these.

It is a tragedy for everyone.

[Myra]

27. Quote

From Michael Moore, based on his religious upbringing.
I'm totally secular, but it reflects my philosophy as well:

"Maybe I was raised the wrong way, but my parents taught
me we'll be judged by how we treat the least among us."

I think it applies to individuals and to society.
If it's typical of teenage boys to beat up others,
then a civilized society has to protect those others.

It also underscores how fucked up the US is, but then
what doesn't?

[dsc]

28. The story is from Canada

not the US.

[Myra]

43. You totally missed my point dsc

I was pointing out that the US strategically
and consistently goes after the weakest among
us: homeless, single mothers, the poor, those
with drug problems, the unemployed, the uninsured,
and on and on.

That's a quintisentially US story.
It reflects very badly on us as a society,
just as it reflect badly on people who go after
weaker individuals.

[GCP]

29. Adolescence is Darwinism in its purest form

The kids don't even realize what's going on. There's a sudden rush of hormones just as adolescence starts, and kids who were previously best friends, or who were friendly to everybody in their grade suddenly start this pecking order. The jocks and "popular" kids are top of the ladder and everybody else competes to be near them.

Adolescence is pure hell for the majority of kids. Those who survive are probably changed for the worse. I wish we (and our kids) didn't have to go through it, but that's the way it is.

This is such a sad story, I feel such sympathy for the family. He would have made a good man by the sound of it.

[Throckmorton]

32. Its not pure hell for most kids,

Its Pure hell for some kids, as you move up the order, its less hell like. Did it get shit on as a kid, yes. Did I shit on other kids, yes. Was it Pure Hell, No.

Bulling is wrong, but to say its pure hell for the majority just isn't so. Now, if your on the bottom of the heap, of course it is pure hell. But I've witnessed these same oppressed kids, when placed at an advantage, act just like their oppressors.

Case in point, two of the most put-upon kids, Nicknames Snot-rag and Moo Cow, both became cops and enjoy shitting on everyone else now.

[7th_Sephiroth]

48. i was sorty of a bully

but i was the bully's bully, i stood a foot or more over everyone in middle school (i was 5'9 and a black belt in the 6th grade but i'm only 6'0 at the age of 19 now) and i beat up the jocks and the "beautifull" snotty rich kids, in fact, i made a few not so beautifull anymore, i changed alot of minds and alot of faces, and i was in hormone overload, i hit puberty all at once at the age of 8 and i have been mistaken for someone 21 since i was 10, espcecially since i became a quiet, verry reserved individual. I was a kid who had a horrible hormone imbalance i had no care about what i was doing i couldent, i went clinically insane for a point in time, but i'm better now.

[ldf]

36. i can't believe some of the replies to this thread...

"it's just a natural part of growing up" is pure bullshit.

it's natural because no one will do anything about it. "kids will be kids".

yeah, and "boys will be boys" when they act as a mob and gang rape.

just like when gay kids commit suicide due to the harassment they get while in school. once it happens everyone says how terrible it is, and in the very next breath, "kids will be kids".

putting them in jail is not the answer, but all this bullying shit could be stopped in it's tracks with the first incident, with the first child.

but the teachers, and schools, and parents are too busy saying "kids will be kids" to ever do anything about.

i was never literally attacked, but i was not one of the cool (popular/jocks) kids, and i did get a lot of verbal harassment and intimidation.

i have NEVER used that type of behaviour when interacting with others. those of you who have, well you certainly learned your bullying lessons well. since it was done to you, you did it to others. and since "kids will be kids", it was perfectly ok.

again, utter and complete BULLSHIT!

edit for spelling

[HEyHEY]

37. Okay smart guy...how do you stop this from happening

Can you back this up? Or are you full of utter bullshit? ;-)

[teach1st]

38. Helping to prevent bullying..

http://www.cde.ca.gov/spbranch/ssp/bullymanual.htm
http://ericcass.uncg.edu/virtuallib/bullying/1068.html

It's not easy to address bullying, but it is possible. I've seen it work. I usually defend teachers, but in this case, I can't: I've seen too many with the same attitude as HEyHEY.

We're also up against some pretty stiff media competition. Television, movies, and organized sports sometimes make it seem as if bullying behavior is cool and, of course, look at the bad example our current President and his gang are setting around the globe.

[HEyHEY]

39. Let's just put it this way

We've had a justice system for years...yet, crime still happens. You attack as much of it as you can and in doind so reduce the incidents.

I never condoned these kids behaviour and I never meant "Boys will be boys" in a Mrs. Clever kind of way. I meant that no matter what this shit IS going to happen.

Now I'v been turned into this bully lovin' monster by a bunch of people who delight in the thrill of battle. Use your head.

[teach1st]

40. Bullying will always be with us, sure...

I never condoned these kids behaviour and I never meant "Boys will be boys" in a Mrs. Clever kind of way. I meant that no matter what this shit IS going to happen.

My apologies.

Bullying will always happen, sure. Would you agree that we can affect its severity and frequency?

Crime will always be with us in spite of (and sometimes due to) law enforcement and justice system efforts, but we don't stop figuring out how to lessen its impact.

I don't think putting the offending kids in question in jail will do much good. It seems to me that incarceration builds better bullies.

Putting them away will protect other kids in the neighborhood, but there should be other options. Although parents aren't always responsible for the deeds of their children, any real solution would probably have to involve the families of the offenders in the short term and the entire community in the long run.

[laylah]

53. More resources.........

www.dontlaugh.org
www.esrnational.org

Jenn

[ldf]

54. how do you stop this from happening?

quite easily.

the very first instance of it, address it. either the kid can refrain from it, or the kid can not attend school. meet the parents and make sure they know that it WILL NOT BE TOLERATED.

if they have to sit their ass at home, missing work, due to their brat harassing others, i imagine they will address the problem.

it is a systemic problem. everyone throws their hands up and says "IT'S GOING TO HAPPEN, NO MATTER WHAT", and of course, it does.

but again, that would also require regaining control of the schools.

and again, we have pretty much thrown our hands up in that regard, too.

and just for your information, i am wearing three pairs of depends, so whether i am full of bullshit or not, is irrelevant.

:D

[arikara]

41. I agree with you ldf

I was brought up by my parents to treat everyone with respect. I never bullied or ever tolerated bullying. If I see someone or something being hurt physically or otherwise, I do not hesitate to get involved. I brought my daughter up the same way. I know that she never treated anyone any different than how she would want to be treated herself.

There is no excuse for abusive behaviour and it should be identified stopped at the first incident. That type of behaviour should never be excused.

[TankLV]

51. Right on!

ya got that right!

I'm amazed at some people making excuses for abnormal behavior.

It is NOT a normal part of growing up to chase/abuse others.

They should be made an example of. Period.

[Kinkistyle]

42. Ah, a fresh brood of future Republicans

They're the next generation of conservatives and Republicans. Just practicing for large-scale bullying when they grow up.

[Speed8098]

46. It is indeed a sad story

But some of the responses here amaze me.


Do you not remember what it was like at that age?

To put these kids behind bars would be wrong.

It is unfortunate that this boy died from heart failure, but this could've happened anytime anywhere.

Would you be as upset if the boy would've died whole playing catch with his dad. Or maybe he might have collapsed while running laps in gym.

I DO NOT CONDONE bullying, but to lock these kids up would be counter-productive. Jail does NOT rehabilitate, and locking them up will only lead to recidivism. When you are locked up at that age and your experience is not as bad as you expected, it tends to desensitize you.
I know this from personal experience.

Murder was not the intention of these kids.

Let's remember, they are humans, and as such, they will make mistakes.
We all do.

[RebelOne]

47. This is a sad situation, but many deaths of teenagers

are caused by bullying. I have a friend whose son shot himself in the head in school because of constant bullying by classmates. He was overweight and they constantly tormented him because of it. He was only 15. This incident made all the national newspapers at the time. My friend and her husband have been on many TV talk shows, including Ophrah. They have been campaigning for years now to get stricter laws passed for bullying in schools.

[ikojo]

55. What would the response on this board be if the kid was Jewish or

black? Surely the parents of the now dead kid would be crying antisemitism or racism. Hopefully people would not be saying "kids will be kids" or "it's a part of growing up."

I was brutalized emotionally and physically from second grade to my sophomore year in school, when I finally was able to make friends and not care what others thought of me. (I still don't make friends easily).

My older sister remembers very well how I was treated in school. When her daughter got to be of school age she made the decision that if she was treated as I was then she would home school her.

My school was indifferent (kids will be kids) and did little to stop the bullying. My mom went to the school regularly with little effect until I knocked a girl up against a locker and she was called by the principal. Given my grades (very good) the principal was surprised. After hearing my mom tell of my struggles with this girl and throughout my schooling he FINALLY took notice and she was transferred.

Also, no one says what the kids were going to do with the firecrackers had they caught up with the now deceased kid?

None of my nieces and nephews were bullies. It is something learned at the dinner table when parents ridicule those who are different. It is something learned from watching "presidents" attack those unable to defend themselves.

Just as schools have zero tolerance for race based bullying, so too, should there be zero tolerance for all bullying.

[vernon_nackulus]

58. Healthy 14 year old boys don't just drop dead of heart attacks

because someone scared the crap out of 'em. I'm not condoning bullying, but the bullies didn't kill him. Only preventative health care could've prevented his death. The same thing could have easily happened at a track meet.

[Kinkistyle]

59. Bullying is TERRORISM. I am bloody F-ing serious.

I don't bandy around the word whenever its convenient like the Repugs do, but bullying is a form of terrorism. In another words, it is done to instill fear and basically "terrorize" innocent people. Yeah, I guess the kid might have died at a track meet as well, but whereas he might have slowed down his pace or taken a break when he felt tired at the track meet, I doubt he felt he had that option when he was escaping in self-defense of what he must have felt was an assault on his physical (and probably mental) well-being.

Terrorizing people is wrong. Be it amongst children or adults.

[HEyHEY]

61. It is in his family too.

Too bad things like that are always found the hard way.

[Throckmorton]

62. Healthy ones don't, but boys with latent heart defects do,

Every year there are several cases of teenage boys dropping dead during sports training. Most have even had recent physicals that certify them to play, so much for " preventative health care could've prevented his death."