Wiesenthal Center ired by EU poll naming Israel top threat

[Gimel]

LOS ANGELES - An international Jewish human rights
group called for excluding the European Union from
Israel-Palestinian peace talks after reports that
a new poll shows many Europeans consider Israel
the top threat to world peace.

The Simon Wiesenthal Center said it was outraged at
published reports that the 59 percent of 7,500 Europeans
surveyed called Israel a larger threat to world peace
than North Korea or Iran.

Wiesenthal Center dean Rabbi Marvin Hier said the result
"defies logic and is a racist flight of fantasy
that only shows that anti-Semitism is deeply
embedded within European society, more than any
other period since the end of World War II."
http://www.haaretzdaily.com/hasen/spages/356031.html

[La_Serpiente]

1. I can see where the EU people are coming from

I think their fears are not a result of Israel attacking Europe. I think their fears are a result of the instability in the region and that the conflict could spin out of control.

That's how I see it.

But I wouldn't veiw Israel as a direct threat.

[Resistance Is Futile]

9. Don't be so sure

Various Israeli extremists have bragged that Israel has a nuclear first strike capability against Europe. Anti-Europe bigotry is alive and extremely well among Israelis.

[Grey]

22. The same deal the catholics got,

Could they not just set up a sort of "Vatican", A small area to use, in the same way Catholics do, and live peacefully in the world. I have to say my Jewish Grandmother and I get a little impatient at times.But thats just my opinion.

[loudnclear]

23. If they had named the US the biggest terrorist threat would the Wiesenthal

called for banning them from peace talks? Just asking.

[AntiCoup2K4]

2. Perhaps the EU should issue a clarification...

...Which says that it's the Likud government of Israel (and their PNAC lackeys) which are the greatest threat to world peace, as opposed to the Nation of Israel itself.

[edward]

3. Why?

Who is running the country? Has there been a coup?

[AntiCoup2K4]

6. Well, you would have to analyze their election system for that answer...

....but what I was getting at is that it's just as wrong to blame every Israeli or every Jew for Sharon's barbaric terrorist fascism as it is to blame every American for the crimes of the Bush Criminal Empire.

Of course you can make the argument against the ignorant percentages of both populations who return these shitheads to power knowing exactly what they are capable of, but that's even stretching it.

[hang a left]

8. I don't think that they are blaming every Jew.

Right now

Sharon/Likud=Israel

kind of like

*Bush Admin=America

[Flying_Pig]

10. The difference here is, we didn't vote Bush in, he was appointed.

Both the popular vote, and the "legal" electoral vote went to Gore. In Israel, a majority legally voted in Sharon and Likud.

[hang a left]

14. I agree, don't blame me, I voted for Gore.

The point I was making is that I don't think the attack was on Jews per se. I think what the author was revealing is that peoples of the EU view Israel as the threat, not Jewish people, there are alot of Jewish people that don't live in Israel, and that also didn't vote for Sharon.

The world views the United States as a threat to world peace as well I am quite sure. I am sure, regardless of how we voted each and everyone of us could be lumped into that statement as "Americans".

[Flying_Pig]

7. Sorry. The majority of the people of Israel voted for, and support

Sharon and Likud. They are responsible. Where I will give the people of Israel a break though, is that Sharon and his Likud henchmen have used the terror threats as a way to induce tremendous fear into the electorate. They are voting this fear, as opposed to voting for the future, and for peace.

Bush is doing much the same here, and granted Israel faces a much more real, and daily, terror threat then we do, it is nonetheless used by Sharon in a very political way to increase his powers, to the detriment of peace.

[The Magistrate]

32. That Is Not Quite True, Sir

Israel works under a multi-party, party-list system. The Likud Party did not get anything like a majority, but only, if recollection serves, a bit over a third of the vote. This was, however, the largest party vote total, which entitles the party which receives it to the first opportunity to create a coallition of parties, totalling to a majority in the Knesset. This was achieved by agreement with some smaller ultra-nationalist groups, including Molodet, and the new secularist Shinui Party, which has arisen only recently and never held any share in government. It is not a particularly good fit with the rest, and there is some indication of instability accordingly.

[Aidoneus]

21. how were things any better under Labour?

.

[Copperred]

4. The Greek Objective View: Uncommon Sense: Alan Cromer...Read it Today!

Muddleoftheroad (1000+ posts) Fri Oct-31-03 10:44 PM
Response to Reply #8

10. Leftist Opposition

I equate leftist opposition (and rightist opposition) to Israel as anti-Semitism. If you don't like what Israel does, then you may be a political opponent. If you don't believe in Israel as a homeland for the Jewish people, then I question your motives in a big way.

God bless America, we can use it.

------------

durutti (355 posts) Sat Nov-01-03 07:53 PM
Response to Reply #10

15. Once Again Muddle

Every time you say this, I respond with the same questions. And you've never even attempted to answer them, much less answer them satisfactorily.

The Jews suffered a terrible holocaust. 6 million died. Everyone who says otherwise is a fool and probably a bigot.

But the Jews aren't the only people ever to suffer a holocaust. American Indians, Africans, Armenians, the Roma ("gypsies"), and the Kurds have all had their holocausts. Where are their racially/ethnically/religiously exclusive states? Do they have a right to such states? If they do, then doesn't every ethnic group everywhere have the same right? And wouldn't that mean dividing the world into thousands of tiny nations? Isn't that unfeasible?

And even if you accept the right to establish a Jewish state, it would make little sense to establish it in Palestine. The Palestinians weren't responsible for the Nazi holocaust. In fact, 12,000 of them fought on the side of the Allies. Why not establish the Jewish state in part of Germany? The Jews were only one of many groups to inhabit Palestine over the years.

It's one thing to express a right to self-determination. It's quite another to exercise that right at the expense of other oppressed peoples. Accepting the idea that the Jews had a right to establish an ethnically exclusive state, they still didn't have the right kick people off their land and drive 700,000 of them from their homes.

I am against the idea of a Christian state, an Islamic State, or a Hindu state. I don't see why I should support the idea of a Jewish state.


The User Formerly Known as the_sam.

[rini]

18. truth, justice, and the American way

But the Jews aren't the only people ever to suffer a holocaust. American Indians, Africans, Armenians, the Roma ("gypsies"), and the Kurds have all had their holocausts. Where are their racially/ethnically/religiously exclusive states? Do they have a right to such states? If they do, then doesn't every ethnic group everywhere have the same right? And wouldn't that mean dividing the world into thousands of tiny nations? Isn't that unfeasible?

Answer: The difference is these people, though horribly persecuted and murdered were not deliberately marked for extermination. American-Indians as well as Africans were thought to be on bottom end of the evolutionary ladder (look up the germ theory) i.e. they were dying off anyway, a murder here or there would help it along, but they would be extinct shortly so...why bother
Indians are American citizens, African-Americans are US citizens. Africans have their various countries. Armenians are in an area called guess what Armenia. Gypsy's have no country they call home, and Kurds (if they had no oil) would once again have the republic of Kurdistan.

"And even if you accept the right to establish a Jewish state, it would make little sense to establish it in Palestine. The Palestinians weren't responsible for the Nazi holocaust. In fact, 12,000 of them fought on the side of the Allies. Why not establish the Jewish state in part of Germany? The Jews were only one of many groups to inhabit Palestine over the years."


Answer: Wow! 12th out of 300 million, (better keep quiet about that one). Jews are a part of the Middle-East. Their presence has always been a factor in Israel and it is our ancestral homeland. There are three reasons why Israel exists.
1. given to the people of Israel by G-d
2. the land was legally bought
3. UN vote
Why don't the Arabs go to Jordon which was created as an Arab state?


"It's one thing to express a right to self-determination. It's quite another to exercise that right at the expense of other oppressed peoples. Accepting the idea that the Jews had a right to establish an ethnically exclusive state, they still didn't have the right kick people off their land and drive 700,000 of them from their homes.I am against the idea of a Christian state, an Islamic State, or a Hindu state. I don't see why I should support the idea of a Jewish state"

Answer: Israel is not an ethnically exclusive state. Nor is it a religiously exclusive state. It is an open and free democracy for its citizens
.

[The Magistrate]

34. And Here You Have, Mr. Red

Exemplified the sort of opposition Mr. Muddle means.

There is a broad difference between criticizing actions of the state of Israel, in any degree of vehemence, and urging the proposition that the state of Israel ought not to exist. That last, while Mr. Muddle may be extremely broad in his characterization of it, is certainly not a view that will in any measure help bring peace to the region: the state of Israel exists, and is not going to be undone.

Your list of questions is not particularly useful to the point you urge.

There is an Armenian state: it was formed under the Soviet Union, and since the dissolution of that entity has rather thrived as an independent nation.

The Kurds have not really had anything comperable to the genocidal assaults in modern times against Jews and Armenians, although they were the principle executants of the Ottoman campaigns against the Armenians. They have since the end of the Great War been attempting to establish a state of Kurdistan, and it would probably be of great benefit to the long term stability of the region if there was such a state entity.

Africa is a continent, not a country or a nation: that continent is chock-full of states, including those regions from which persons were acquired for the Atlantic slave trade, and in which persons were maltreated on a genocidal scale roughly a century ago for the rubber trade.

No one particularly knows the geographic origins of the Gypsies; even their own lore is unclear on the matter. It would be exceedingly difficult for them to return to it, and establich a state.

The natives of North America have lost, and that loss is not going to be re-couped.

You are rather mistaken in your view of the allegiance of Arab Nationalists in Palestine during the Second World War. Nor will you find any signifigant combat units of Arab Palestinians in the Allied order of battle. You will find, however, any numbner of guady instances of collaboration with the Nazis by Arab Nationalist leadership: it is one reason they had such political difficulty at the United Nations in 1947.

The state of Israel exists so that there will be a state in this world wherein state persecution of Jews is a practical impossibility. Given the sorry history of that over two millenia, this seems a good thing to me. It is not going to go away, or alter appreciably, whatever ideal views may be urged.

[edward]

36. You seem to have missed his point.

He was asking if every country named has the right to an ethnically pure nation.(by the way, Armenia is not thriving)

[The Magistrate]

37. As A General Rule, Sir

Nations are formed by nationalities, which tend to have signifigant ethnic homogeneity. Cases like the United States, agglomerations of immigrants from many nations, are rather the exception.

[Flying_Pig]

5. Yes, the cause of all negative thinking about Israel's actions are

because of anti-Semitism, and not because of anything Israel does. Would one think that perhaps it could be the actions of Arik Sharon and his fascist Likud party, that might cause some of these negative polls? No, it must be anti-Semitism. That's the answer to all of Israel's critics, is it not?

Sooner or later, those that constantly use the old canard of anti-Semitism as a defense against criticism of Israel, are going to find deaf ears. It's happening now, and is a shame, because in the face of real anti-Semitism, no one will listen anymore.

[Copperred]

11. There will still be just protectors of all....

I disagree....objective people, objective Americans, will continue to combat real anti-semitism when and where it shows... However, labeling those against Israeli policies for its handling of the Palestinian issue as anti-semitic is dead in the water. Too much information flow has assured this reality in the public discourse.

We maybe on the cusp of the educated Western masses shedding in public the entire Abrahamic tradition which would be a good thing and put all fundamentalist jews, christans and muslims in the same corner against the rest of the modern world.

The credibilty of these "Jewish" groups that are supposed to be the watch dogs of anti-semitism and protecting the jewish community...their days imo are numbered if they are not able to come in line with basic objective realities. They have done the Jewish community no good by becoming principally political tools. Will the real Jews stand up...comes to mind.... Will the real Americans stand up... Will the real Muslims stand up... Will the real Christians stand up... you get my point.

It is my hope that the Abrhamic communities will soon evolve and move their support to more objective foundations that stand on par with the Greeks. No doubt, all sane people should push and direct these communities in that direction, for as we all know, so few within these communities are freemen.

[Gimel]

13. Perhaps more than a little

is the way the media presents Israel and is constantly reporting on the Israel/Palestinian conflict in hyper tones. Much like product ads that get into the unconscious of the listeners.

[pakaya]

12. europians are anti semite

[Nlighten1]

17. Riiiiight

[Mokito]

20. Sigh...yawn...anything else, o, oracle of wisdom?

:eyes:

[papau]

28. "europians are anti semite" - but many are - and the educated more

than most because they need an excuse for a system that is what the US is becoming under Bush - job and level of job not by merit but by parents/friends wealth and contacts together with the your acting ability to convery your love of the far right. Europe has strong unions that tone down the evil above -

but the US does not - indeed we glory in the flexiblity in our hire/work rule/ promote system that weak unions allow - kept weak by the GOP's cute titled "right to work" laws - a great idea that gives us most sectors of the economy being without unions - so unions can not help us with this in the US.

We say educate yourself and work hard and be agressive in job searches and promotion searches and know that you are in America and you have a better chance than in any other country in the world --- BULL

And I expect the need for a fall guy will have the US - since we can not blame the GOP and their interests - the rich and the corporate - we no doubt will end up with a small selection for our choice of the evil one: - the hispanic - as in Spanish speaking - but there may too many, those of color - but hispanic brown is helping here, the evil illegal immigrant - but many undocumented workers are from Mexico and south so there are too many, the liberal - but that is easy to hide, and the Jew- - - - - -

so we most likely will be chasing the Jew - just like in Europe - as we try to avoid blaming the inherited rich and their greed.

Anyone for a hell of a big "death" tax on assets over $10,000,000?

[edward]

15. Wiesenthal Center refuses Armenian Genocide display.

Here is story from earlier this year(don't know how or if resolved) that details how the Center refuses to have an open display about the Armenian Genocide. How is that for justice?

<http://adl.hayway.org/default_zone/documents/wiesenthal_center.pdf>

"The museum, those critics assert, has backed away from its own pledges toinclude the first genocide of the 20th century -- the Armenian genocide of1915 -- as a part of its permanent exhibition. That genocide is effectivelyabsent, some of those critics suggest, because of a 21st century politicalalliance between Jewish leaders and the Turkish government whosepredecessors carried out that genocide"

[Gimel]

16. Politics, as the article points out

Turkey may be sensative to this historical chapter. Turkey and Israel have developed close ties in the past few years.

The Armenians were to be included in the torch lighting on Holocaust Day this year but it was cancelled at the last minute. I never understood why. The policital angle of being nice to Turkey may be the answer.

[edward]

19. Ugly politics.

As foreign minister of Israel, Simon Peres said that there is no Armenian Genocide. The depth and breadth of denial is shocking(or it should be.)

[rini]

24. can you please send the link on that statement?

n/t

[edward]

26. Can and will.

Anyone can do google search for "armenian genocide" and whatever subject you want. Add "simon peres" or "israel" or any other subject.
Usually the correct material will come up withing first 10.
But will put it up.

[Aidoneus]

27. a single example found quickly and easily,

PROTEST ISRAELI FOREIGN MINISTER'S REMARKS DISMISSING ARMENIAN GENOCIDE AS "MEANINGLESS"
An International Action Alert by the Armenian National Committee of Jerusalem 4/13/2001

Israeli Foreign Minister Shimon Peres has said that claims of an Armenian Genocide are "meaningless," according to the April 10th edition of the Turkish Daily News (TDN). The newspaper quoted him as saying that:

"We reject attempts to create a similarity between the Holocaust and the Armenian allegations. Nothing similar to the Holocaust occurred. It is a tragedy what the Armenians went through but not a genocide."

In response to inquiries from Asbarez Daily Newspaper to the Israeli Consulate in Los Angeles, the Israeli Foreign Ministry confirmed that Peres had in fact rejected any comparisons between the two of the major Genocides of the 20th Century. The Israeli Consulate released the following statement:

"This issue should be dealt with by historians and not politicians. We do not support the comparison of the Armenian tragedies to the Jewish Holocaust. Israel will not take a historical and political stance on the issue."

--snip--

http://www.anca.org/anca/actionalerts.asp?aaID=23

There are others if you require further confirmation.

http://www.google.com/search?q=%22Shimon+Peres%22+Armenian+genocide&sourceid=opera&num=0&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8

[edward]

31. Hitler: Who remembers the Armenians?

Shocking that any Jew in the world would take the side of Hitler.

[Aidoneus]

33. perhaps surprising

Not long ago it seems that the Fuhrer wrote in to Ma'ariv to attack the refuseniks, nobody in Israel noticed it for quite a few days.

[edward]

35. Thanks for the heads up.

Reminds me of the great book by Wilhelm Reich analyzing the language and psychology of fascism.
Cleanliness and morality are among most common tropes.

[Tom Yossarian Joad]

25. Israel has embraced the role of U.S.A., Jr. and is now harvesting

the same reputation as the U.S.A.

And, instead of calling people who disagree with policies "commies," they are called anti semitic.

Sharon is starting to see more and more dissent from his own ranks. IMHO, the Israeli people are as tired of the violence as the EU and will put Sharon out of office ASAP (via election).

[RuB]

29. Unfuckingbelievable.

Europe is a continent of morans.

[Tom Yossarian Joad]

30. But they have a better handle on world affairs than the majority of

Americans.

[VolcanoJen]

38. Locking.

This thread has unfortunately deteriorated into discussion that would be better suited in the Israel/Palestinian Affairs Forum.

Please feel free to continue your discussion there.

VolcanoJen
DU Moderator