McTeague: Two Canadians among four aid workers kidnapped in Iraq

[bemildred]

OTTAWA (CP) - Four humanitarian workers, including two Canadians have been kidnapped in Iraq, Dan McTeague, parliamentary secretary for Canadians abroad, said Sunday.

McTeague said the incident happened on Saturday, but refused to name the organization the two Canadians worked for, or the location where they were kidnapped.

He said the group "has not requested any assistance at this time."

"Our officials . . . both in Amman and in Ottawa are in contact with the organization and are standing by to provide any or all possible assistance, but we have to recognize that there are limitations as there is no Canadian Embassy in Iraq and our ability to provide assistance is limited," he said.

MyTelus

[WhiteTara]

1. Official: 4 Aid Workers Kidnapped in Iraq

http://news.yahoo.com/fc/world/iraq

Oh no, just another shitty day in paradise

BAGHDAD, Iraq - Four aid workers, including two Canadians, have been kidnapped in Iraq, a Canadian official said Sunday, while Iraqi police have arrested eight Sunni Arabs for allegedly plotting to assassinate the investigating judge in the case against Saddam Hussein. Dan McTeague, parliamentary secretary for Canadians abroad, would not say which organization the four have been working for, or where in Iraq they were located. He was speaking in Ottawa, Canada and no other details were immediately available.

[GrumpyGreg]

2. Could someone smarter than I explain what on earth can be

gained my kidnapping aid workers? Are these folks nuts?

[Barrett808]

3. Common criminals; kidnapping is a growth industry in "liberated" Iraq

[INDIA]

4. This drives me nuts

What the hell can we do when dealing with people like this? If we stay things are going to stay a mess. if we leave, it'll just get worse! If these assholes had any structure or moral code, then we could pick up and leave and trust that these activities would stop. At least when we conceded Vietnam we were allowing a functioning (although brutal) government to take over.

[Barrett808]

5. I suspect things won't get more catastrophic when we leave...

...because we're already at "catastrophic." But Iraq will be a failed state (of our creation) for the foreseeable future, at least a generation.

[INDIA]

7. I have to disagree

Although we are doing a shitty job overall protecting civilians, if we leave it's going to be a free for all power grab shit show. The Iraqi
Army and Police don't have the training to deal with people like this. We are the best equipped and trained force in the world and we can barely keep less than 100 Iraqi's a week from getting blown up.

What makes you think that our exit won't make things worse? Especially since most of these attacks are no longer aimed at US troops?

[Barrett808]

10. We can imagine a lot of credible post-withdrawal scenarios

I expect some things will get worse when we withdraw next year, but I also expect some things will get better. That is, the ongoing catastrophe will change in flavor to some degree.

Mostly, the mission isn't "protecting Iraqi civilians." It's about crushing Sunni will to resist. So we march around on the Syrian border, while whole Baghdad neighborhoods belong to the insurgency. We've handed over control of several cities and provinces already (Karbala, Najaf, Diyala), with more to follow imminently. Local strongmen are in charge of these places now, and things are relatively "quiet" -- so long as you aren't a barber, or selling western videos, you're probably not going to get blown up.

To my mind, the free-for-all power grab has largely happened already. What we'll see is consolidation of power. The most important development will be Iraq as an Iranian client state, which is already proceeding apace.

See my daily news roundup (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/IraqFrontNews) for details.

[thebigidea]

6. as if they're the only ones without a "moral code"

[INDIA]

8. What are you suggesting?

If it's comparing our servicemen to the insurgency then you are way out of line. I'd be willing to bet that not once during this war has an American servicemen purposely targeted and killed a civillian who he KNEW was unarmed/not a threat. What IS unexcusable is the huge risks we take while bombing targets in civillian areas. If we know that one innocent person might die to get 40 bad guys, then it's absolutely unacceptable.

The insurgents on the other hand are PURPOSELY targeting civilians, often when there are neither police or army personnel nearby. That is the lack of moral code that I am referring to.

[thebigidea]

9. are you saying Rumsfeld has a moral code?

who needs to pick fights with the glorious troops: their leaders are the ones with no moral compass.

are you trying to say the vampiric, lying prick who sees nothing wrong with indefinete detainment, "stress positions," waterboarding, etc. has a moral compass?

go on, try and defend Rumsfeld/Cheney. should be fun.

"'d be willing to bet that not once during this war has an American servicemen purposely targeted and killed a civillian"

and you'd lose, not that you'd accept any of the sources or listen to anything but the sound of your own voice.

And if you did admit it, they'd just be a "few bad apples." Well, wouldn't the same apply to the awful barbaric beheaders? How many Americans were beheaded, exactly? I'd say the few that did it are also a few bad apples.

But I guess its easier to pretend that we're the good guys, and the enemies are always the subhuman animals. Makes them easier to slaughter that way.

[INDIA]

11. Rumsfeld is disgusting...

But I have a real admiration and respect for our servicemen. I absolutely trust that they would never purposely target and kill someone who they KNEW was UNARMED, CIVILLIAN, and not a threat. But I guess I lose unless you can prove otherwise. Link Please?

Note: Even during our troops most disgusting acts (Abu Ghraib) they never killed anyone. The Fallujah Marine who shot the injured Iraqi? he thought (and had good reason to) that he was about to set off a bomb and try to kill him. Was it an accident? Yes. Hasty/Incorrect decision? yes. Purposely killing an unarmed non-threatening civillian?


NOPE

That is what, in my opinion, sets us apart.

[thebigidea]

13. you're completely wrong.

"Even during our troops most disgusting acts (Abu Ghraib) they never killed anyone."

wrong. they beat someone to death and posed next to his corpse. Look it up, read the Taguba report. Similar things happened at Bagram.

its not my job to educate you, its my hobby to laugh at you. Maybe someone with more patience would be willing to oblige. Have a nice day.

[INDIA]

14. Really?

Wow, I must have missed that tidbit of information during the military trials for all those involved. The possibility that the beating death happened has been discussed, but never verified. Unless you have a link to a reputable news source. Which you don't.

[thebigidea]

15. I said read the Taguba report.

surely a DOD report wouldn't LIE, eh?

Wow, I must've missed the fact that we already had trials for ALL involved instead of just a few of those assholes. Got a link for that, the fact that the trials for ALL involved are over?

[INDIA]

16. Still waiting on that link...

By the way, did the report verify the beating death as fact or a possibility. By the way, I would never use the "bad apple" argument...it's so cliche.

[thebigidea]

18. you want links?

Two years ago, at Abu Ghraib prison, outside Baghdad, an Iraqi prisoner in Swanner’s custody, Manadel al-Jamadi, died during an interrogation. His head had been covered with a plastic bag, and he was shackled in a crucifixion-like pose that inhibited his ability to breathe; according to forensic pathologists who have examined the case, he asphyxiated. In a subsequent internal investigation, United States government authorities classified Jamadi’s death as a “homicide,” meaning that it resulted from unnatural causes. Swanner has not been charged with a crime and continues to work for the agency.

After September 11th, the Justice Department fashioned secret legal guidelines that appear to indemnify C.I.A. officials ...


http://www.newyorker.com/fact/content/articles/051114fa_fact

GIs Charged With Detainee's Murder

(CBS/AP) Four soldiers accused of smothering an Iraqi general during an interrogation last fall have been charged with murder, bringing the total number of U.S. troops charged with murder in Iraq to at least 10.

The soldiers could get life in prison without parole if convicted in the Nov. 26 death of Maj. Gen. Abed Hamed Mowhoush, 57, at Qaim, Iraq. The Army said Mowhoush died of asphyxiation from chest compression and from being smothered.

Four soldiers from Fort Riley, Kan., were charged last month with murder in the deaths of four Iraqi civilians in two incidents. A soldier from 1st Armored Division in Germany has been charged with murder in the fatal shooting of a badly wounded driver for militant cleric Muqtada al-Sadr.

Another soldier was sentenced to 25 years in prison last month after pleading guilty to murder in the death of an Iraqi National Guard member. His unit was not identified.

Two other Fort Carson soldiers face courts-martial on manslaughter charges in connection with an unrelated death in Iraq — that of the drowning of an Iraqi civilian in the Tigris River.

In addition to the suspicious deaths in Iraq, the U.S. military is investigating several detainee deaths in Afghanistan.

An official said in September that the military was probing whether American soldiers abused an Afghan detainee so badly that he died last year at a special forces base in southeastern Afghanistan.

The military was already looking into at least three deaths in U.S. custody in Afghanistan, dating back to December 2003. It has yet to release the results of any of the investigations.

But a CIA contractor has been charged in the United States with using a flashlight to beat a prisoner who later died in the eastern town of Asadabad in June 2003.


http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2004/09/25/iraq/main645601.shtml

The first Mohammed Munim al-Izmerly's family knew of his death was when his battered corpse turned up at Baghdad's morgue. Attached to the zipped-up black US body bag was a laconic note.
The US military claimed in the note that Dr Izmerly, a distinguished chemistry professor arrested after US tanks encircled his villa, had died of "brainstem compression".

Dr Izmerly's sudden death after 10 months in American custody left his family stunned, not least because three weeks earlier they had visited him in the US prison at Baghdad airport. His 23-year-old daughter, Rana, recalled that he had seemed in "good health".

The cause of death was blunt trauma. It was uncertain exactly how he died, but someone had hit him from behind, possibly with a bar or a pistol, Dr Baker confirmed yesterday.

"He died from a massive blow to the head. We don't disagree with the coalition's report, but it doesn't explain how he got his injuries in the first place," he told the Guardian.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/Iraq/Story/0,2763,1223358,00.html

[thebigidea]

21. yeah, I thought so. WEAK!

[INDIA]

22. Hey I'm not gonna lie...

Good post. Although there is a huge difference between shady CIA contractors and servicemen. (Not to mention Iraqi Police/Army, they do things a little different)

Now back to the original argument. You came up with less than half a dozen cases (maybe?) that may prove me wrong.

Do you still stand by the claim that our servicement are comparable (because of these few cases) to the insurgency that has killed nearly 200 civillians just this week?

I guess you could compare me to Barry Bonds since I hit a few homers during little league.

[thebigidea]

23. where the hell did you get half a dozen MAYBE from?

"bringing the total number of U.S. troops charged with murder in Iraq to at least 10. "

us troops, not cia, not contractors. and that's last year.

so i've already proved your original line completely wrong... you didn't say it was only a FEW troops who murdered civilians, you said NOT A SINGLE ONE. And you said you were willing to bet... And just as I predicted, you'd try the few bad apples argument once I relented and gave you some links.

"Do you still stand by the claim that our servicement are comparable (because of these few cases) to the insurgency that has killed nearly 200 civillians just this week?"

oh, fuck that Sean Hannity bullshit. Go put on a flag or something, I have nothing to prove to you except how wrong you were. Go eat some crow and have a nice weekend.

[Wind Dancer]

29. Jumping in a little late.

Since you are new to this board, you might not be aware of how committed DUer's are to the safety of our troops and innocent civilians.

If you recall, we did attack a country that was weak militarily and hadn't harmed us in any way. There have been estimates of over 100,000 innocent Iraqi deaths - we don't know the number of injured. Many of our troops were sent in without proper equipment, training and leadership. Some have been redeployed for their 3rd or 4th time. Obviously, the tone is set from the top, not the bottom.

We have used white phosphorous as a weapon, innocent people have died. Our troops will come home with PTSD and will be ignored by the government, it happened in Vietnam and the first Gulf War. Many of us were opposed to this war from the beginning. Violence begets violence, we are witnessing that right now.

There are a group of radicals willing to kill our troops and innocent Iraqis, others have taken up arms because we invaded their country, took their resources and privatized the country. We are dealing with 2 different groups.

You may find certain opinions disgusting but until this country is willing to discuss openly what is causing the violence, we all lose. How much hatred have we created by attacking a country illegally? What would you do if your country was invaded, then occupied by a foreign military?

[LostinVA]

12. I'd take your bet, and I suspect I'd win

My BIL is a MAJOR RWer, but he was in Desert Storm, and there are unfortunately, a fair number of sociopaths wearing the uniform of the USA. He has some rather horrible stories concerning murder, theft, and rape -- all done by some sickos on our side.

And, our military is also purposely targeting civilians.

And, they may be "insurgents," but our military is an illegal army of Occupation, and many Iraqis feel about them as many Poles did about the Wehrmacht. The invasion of Iraq shows a lack of moral code on a large scale. "People in glass houses don't throw stones." "Let you without sin cast the first stone."

And don't accuse me of not having respect for soldiers. I have respect for the individual, not the uniform. I am not a Nationalists, I am not a Fascist.

On Edit: I don't have to "find a link." I have the word of my BIL, and of my grandfathers, who told of similar American atrocities in WW II and Vietnam, not the word of the Pentagon's laundered news.

[TheWraith]

17. I'd take that bet.

Perhaps I have less faith in the innate goodness of all people than you do. But I have no problem believing that a US soldier would deliberatly kill someone they knew to not be a threat. There are psychos everywhere--possibly more per capita in the military, because there they get to act out their violent impulses and get praised for it. And when you dehumanize your opponents--such as boming civilian neighborhoods, raping prisoners, or viewing every "raghead" as a potential terrorist--it desensitizes even normal people to the reality of what's going on, and allows things like Abu Ghraib to happen. It's not a big step from torturing people to killing them.

I don't entirely disagree with you--there's a considerable difference between deliberately targeting the population and the casual disregard for civilian safety that's been demonstrated in the military's tactics. But it does seem to me a little naive--or perhaps too idealistic--to say that nobody on "our side" has deliberately committed murder.

[INDIA]

19. Fair enough...

But getting back to the original argument, I don't like it when "people" compare our servicemen to terrorists/insurgents/rebels/whatever. I find it disgusting actually.

"I don't entirely disagree with you--there's a considerable difference between deliberately targeting the population and the casual disregard for civilian safety that's been demonstrated in the military's tactics."

Thats the point I'm trying to get across to knucklehead up there. And I think It's a lot more than a "considerable" difference.

[thebigidea]

20. hey, your links are up there. I await your response.

I never compared soldiers to terrorists, so you can stop babbling that old bullshit canard. I specifically said Rumsfeld, and you fucking know it.

You got your links, you got your reputable sources, but I don't seem to see a reply there apologizing for being a totally misinformed knucklehead.

[INDIA]

24. Of course you were...

Rumsfeld isn't in the streets of Iraq, (although he should be)"Glorious Troops"??? Come on, little sarcasm maybe? I wasn't talking about Zarqawi/Bin Laden, why bring up Rumsfeld? You were definitely referring to servicemen in the field. Although with all your edits who knows what you did or didn't say?

By the way, all the swearing leads me to believe you're getting a little flustered. Are you really winning this argument?

[thebigidea]

25. don't you dare tell me what I was talking about.

I was editing due to adding links and lines.

I'm getting a little flustered? You were proven completely wrong, and now you're playing in your shit, desperately trying to gain points via distraction from the original argument.

Yeah, the one you were wrong about.

The one you would've lost a bet over.

But I suppose in bizzaro world, effectively winning an argument with reputable sources is somehow "getting flustered."

You can't win, so you try to pretend I was arguing something that never came out of my keyboard - total Sean Hannity nonsense.

But hey, lets go the judges! Judges, who won this argument?

[INDIA]

26. I do dare

And i was referring your unneccessary use of foul language with the flustered thing.

Hey I went for broke claiming that it didn't happen. You got me, it happened once for sure with the conviction and....10 other accusations, most under scrutiny and investigation.

But we got sidetracked I learned something didn't I?

Sean Hannity nonesense? What the hell kind of dismissive avoidance tactic is that? Okay, your Bill O'ReillyBushCoulter argument is unworthy of my response.

And your recent post failed to address the original argument. Wear a flag? puh-leeeze.

How about this then, let's make a deal. Never ever ever compare our servicemen (even indirectly) with those monsters. There is no legitimate comparison, none.

[thebigidea]

27. now you're the language monitor?

well, better get hoppin', lots of DUers use those naughty words.

Lets make a deal? Now you're a friggin' game show host? Unbelievable.

"Never ever ever"

or you'll what? Make another boneheaded statement that has nothing to do with reality?

Or you'll what? Get your ass handed to you using reputable sources?

Whine and moan about how soldiers are actually magical pixies that leave change and brightly colored eggs under Iraqi civilian's pillows?

I want nothing to do with your black and white GI JOE view of the world: we aren't fighting Cobra Commander or Dr. No here. Its war, its messy, there are no good guys.

And that's my final say on the matter, you're welcome to chirp about beheadings and bearded barbarians all you want in response. Maybe you could bring up some relative who served and how he had a really strong chin, making it impossible for him to commit atrocities.

[INDIA]

28. Wow, your language finally calmed down.

Thank you. It reflects poorly on yourself to talk like that.

How did my ass get handed to me? I made a claim that you proved wrong with one solid concrete example, (the conviction). Charges are not convictions.

I should have hedged my bets, but I went all out and got proven wrong by one solid example. Good job.

And that is all unrelated. I'm not saying that all soldiers are magical pixies, but they ARE NOT comparable to insurgents. I have the utmost respect for our servicemen, EXCUSE ME if it bothers me to see an overt comparison between the two.

I'll argue on their behalf in just about every circumstance.

And I'll be shocked if that actually IS your final say in the matter.

[applegrove]

30. Sending out Hope & the strengths of my ancestors to those kidnapped.

And to all those victims in Iraq.

[NVMojo]

31. Four Westerners 'seized in Iraq'

November 27, 2006

Four Western aid workers, including two Canadians and a Briton, have been kidnapped in Iraq, officials say.

A senior Canadian official confirmed that two Canadian nationals were seized in the capital Baghdad on Saturday.

The UK Foreign Office later named a Briton believed to have been abducted with them. The fourth is said to be American but there is no confirmation.

It is estimated that over the past year and a half, at least 200 foreigners have been abducted in Iraq.

more...


http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/4476276.stm

[jannyk]

32. BBC: Four Westerners kidnapped in Iraq

2 Canucks, 1 Brit, 1 American

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/4476276.stm

[Launch Pad]

33. I believe this is the same story

I believe this is the same story.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20051128/ap_on_re_mi_ea/iraq

BAGHDAD, Iraq - A U.S. citizen has been reported missing in Iraq, a U.S. Embassy spokeswoman said Monday.

The name of the civilian, who was among a group believed to be peace activists kidnapped on Saturday, was not immediately released.

[corksean]

34. American Citizen Reported Missing in Iraq

BAGHDAD, Iraq (AP) - An American citizen has been reported missing in Iraq, the U.S. Embassy said Monday, a day after a Canadian Parliament official said that four humanitarian workers had been kidnapped.

Dan McTeague, parliamentary secretary for Canadians abroad, said two Canadians were taken on Saturday, and Britain said one of its citizens was among the four.

U.S. Embassy spokeswoman Elizabeth Colton said only that an American had been reported missing. The person's name was not immediately released.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/worldlatest/story/0,1280,-5442810,00.html