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ECH1969 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-27-05 03:22 PM
Original message
(Ramsey) Clark arrives to assist Saddam defense
Edited on Sun Nov-27-05 03:30 PM by ECH1969
Iraqi police arrested eight Sunni Arabs in the northern city of Kirkuk for allegedly plotting to assassinate the investigating judge who prepared the case against Saddam Hussein, a senior police commander said Sunday. The announcement came as former U.S. Attorney General Ramsey Clark arrived in Baghdad, airport officials said, apparently to aid in Saddam's defense.

Clark has been advising nearly a dozen international lawyers on Saddam's defense team. He has contended that Saddam's rights have been violated in the legal process following his capture. But a U.S. government official close to the court said the defense team had not filed the proper paperwork to have a non-Iraqi lawyer in the courtroom.

If convicted, Saddam and his seven co-defendants could be sentenced to death by hanging.

http://www.kvue.com/news/top/stories/112705cckkcwintPlot.19a491bf.html
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...of J.Temperance Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-27-05 03:25 PM
Response to Original message
1. I had a mini shock then...I THOUGHT it was WESLEY Clark
But it's Ramsey Clark...'um, in your header you might like to put "Ramsey" before the Clark.

:)
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-27-05 09:36 PM
Response to Reply #1
9. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
jazzjunkysue Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-27-05 07:37 PM
Response to Original message
2. Ok. What do we know about Clark? Retired? Free from B*** crime family
influence? Who does he answer to?

I'm sure a bunch of DU'ers know the history.
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meganmonkey Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-27-05 08:06 PM
Response to Reply #2
3. He was Attorney General under Johnson
Edited on Sun Nov-27-05 08:07 PM by meganmonkey
He wrote a really good book (called 'The Fire This Time')about the Gulf War and the years of sanctions after the war, and the effect they had on Iraq. He is extremely critical of bushco, and is involved in the anti-war movement. He is involved with ANSWER and has spoken at rallies in DC over the last few years.
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jazzjunkysue Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-27-05 09:07 PM
Response to Reply #3
6. Really!!!! Cool!
Let's have a pig-roast!
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Yupster Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-28-05 04:40 AM
Response to Reply #3
18. The thing I remember him most for
was during the Iranian Hostage Crisis, while our people were being paraded for TV with blindfolds, he flew to Tehran to take part in the "Crimes of America Trial" that the Iranian hostage takers put together.

Man that was bad.

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goforit Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-27-05 09:23 PM
Response to Reply #2
8. He has been marching against Bush before the 2000 election.
A very moral and thorough person.
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terrierist Donating Member (18 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-28-05 09:58 PM
Response to Reply #2
26. Ramsey Clark
Ramsey Clark was the last REAL Attorney General of the United States, a man of principle, who is appalled by what america has become. He's risking his life trying to do what he can to bring some justice to that Star Chamber proceeding, which we only get to see without audio. I hope he lives to write about it.
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theshadow Donating Member (618 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-27-05 08:26 PM
Response to Original message
4. Saddam might as well throw himself on the mercy...
... of the court. Ramsey is more successful getting "face time" in the media than he is winning cases.
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dryan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-27-05 08:43 PM
Response to Reply #4
5. His father was....
a Supreme Court Justice. If I remember, he resigned when Clark became Attorney General.
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Judi Lynn Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-27-05 10:12 PM
Response to Reply #4
12. It would be appropriate if you provided some information about his
mediocre abilities, and his drive to secure publicity.

He really hasn't had a lot of "face time" in the conventional sense.

Maybe there's an alternate media universe where he's very well publicized.

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theshadow Donating Member (618 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-27-05 10:52 PM
Response to Reply #12
15. I'll retract it if....
... someone can name some cases he's won in the last...five years? He's the counsel of choice for the most unsavory international thugs you can think of.... Saddam, Slobadon, Charles Taylor, and Elizaphan Ntakirutimana, a leader of the Rwandan genocide. Like I said, a lot of headlines...no wins.
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onenote Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-27-05 10:39 PM
Response to Reply #4
13. that's sort of ridiculous
Ramsey Clark may not be everyone's cup of tea,and I think that sometimes he goes a bit overboard in his criticisms, but the idea that he's an ineffective publicity hound is ridiculous. Exhibit A is the fact that there are posters here on DU -- folks who by definition follow politics and policy matters more than the average soul -- who have no clue who RC is.

Disclosure: While I haven't seen or talked to RC in over 30 years, I knew him and his family when I was in high school and college and he is a good man.


onenote
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theshadow Donating Member (618 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-27-05 10:42 PM
Response to Reply #13
14. Run him on Google....
Edited on Sun Nov-27-05 10:54 PM by theshadow
.... and watch the press releases pop up. He's not exactly anonymous.
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onenote Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-28-05 10:05 AM
Response to Reply #14
24. i just tried that, and if anything, it confirms my view
To the extent that I found press releases, they were issued by organizations that I had invited Clark to speak. I found out that Clark had founded something called the International Action Center, an organization I had never heard of, which hardly would be the case if he was as big a publicity hound as you suggest. Going to IAC's website, what was most striking was that the first half dozen press releases issued by that organization don't even mention Clark's name. He's not anonymous, but compared to Michael Moore, MoveOn.Org, Cindy Sheehan, he's pretty invisible most of the time.

onenote
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theshadow Donating Member (618 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-27-05 10:53 PM
Response to Reply #13
16. By the way, personally he might indeed be a good man.
It's his professional side that I'm not impressed with.
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goforit Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-27-05 09:22 PM
Response to Original message
7. Can you believe this response?????
"U.S. government official close to the court said the defense team had not filed the proper paperwork to have a non-Iraqi lawyer in the courtroom."

But wasn't his lawyers kidnapped and murdered so conveniently?

This is another stupid ass response and action from this
stupid ass administration.

If Saddam had committed a multitude of autrocities then trying
him in a fair and balanced court would be no problem for the prosecutor. But to murder his lawyers and refuse others to represent him has got to prove only one thing......
The U.S. via GW Bush has something to hide.

Question is .....what are they trying to hide?
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pokercat999 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-28-05 06:40 AM
Response to Reply #7
21. The elephant in the room
is that Uncle Sam and Saddam were asshole buddies until we had no more use for him.

Just a quick read of the history of GHW Bush (daddy Bush) will reveal that he is a dictators best friend (when it benefits him) and worst enemy (when it's time to cover his tracks) ala Noriega.
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saltpoint Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-27-05 09:40 PM
Response to Original message
10. Ramsey Clark is an original. And he's got titanium nuts.
His presence there on the defense team suggests to folks around the globe that not every U.S. citizen is like George Bush or FOX News, and that some of us believe the assault on a sovereign nation was morally inexcusable.

Clark doesn't need the money and he has traditionally eschewed publicity. He acts and thinks on principle.

I love the guy.
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EFerrari Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-28-05 06:02 AM
Response to Reply #10
19. Me, too. At his age and in his position, he needs this case
like a hole in the head.

I admire this guy so much. He knows that Saddam has as much chance of testifying on his own behalf as a pig has of flying. Can you imagine the BFEE just sitting back while Saddam sings like a canary?

If our justice system works at all, it's because of the efforts of people like him who stand up on their hind legs.
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saltpoint Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-28-05 09:17 AM
Response to Reply #19
23. Hi to you, sfexpat2000.
I echo your comments and I'll buy you a beer besides.

Nice to bump into you again on DU.
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TankLV Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-27-05 09:45 PM
Response to Original message
11. Oh oh!
Looks like there may be a fair trial after all - this could get interesting!
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Hyernel Donating Member (665 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-27-05 11:14 PM
Response to Original message
17. Saddam will have some good dirt on Bushco.
Clark wants to share that dirt with the world.

I wish him luck!
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nguoihue Donating Member (135 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-28-05 06:39 AM
Response to Original message
20. Good information on Ramsey Clark
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Disturbed Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-28-05 07:04 AM
Response to Reply #20
22. I feel that Saddam should be tried at the Hauge.
My view is that Saddam cannot get a fair trial in Iraq.



Saddam On Trial


Marsh Arabs. He could make the same argument for reclaiming the marshland that countries around the world do for hydroelectric dams. All in the name of progress. And he did have a rebellion to put down. Insurgents were attacking government troops during the night and hiding in the marshes during the day.

If that were happening today, what do you think the US would do? The first major marsh-draining scheme was proposed in the 1951 Haigh Report, "Control of the Rivers of Iraq," drafted by British engineers working for the Iraqi government. "The report describes an array of sluices, embankments and canals on the lower reaches of the Tigris and Euphrates that would be needed to 'reclaim' the marshes." The study's senior engineer, Frank Haigh, felt that the standing marsh water was being wasted, so he "proposed concentrating the flow of the Tigris into a few embanked channels that would not overflow into the marshes. He proposed one large canal through the main `Amara marsh." In this way, Iraq would be able to "capture the marsh water for irrigation" purposes to aid in feeding the newly created State of Iraq. Construction of the large canal, called the Third River, began in 1953. Further construction took place in the 1960's. It was not until the 1980's, however, during the Iran-Iraq War, that major work was resumed. Today, many of the water projects in the marsh area bear a striking resemblance to the Haigh Plan -- the only problem is that the projects are not being used for agricultural improvement!

<http://gurukul.ucc.american.edu/ted/marsh.htm>

Mass graves

Group 1: Shiites and Kurds killed by the Iraqi govt before Gulf war (when he was an ally of the US. The US provided WMD and the means to deliver them to Saddam during that period. They were allies, and the US continued to supply arms and assisitance knowing that Iraq was doing this. How can the US say then it was ok, but now 20 years later it's bad. Aren't the countries who supplied the means for this murder just as guilty?)

Group 2: Iranians and Iraqis killed during the Iran Iraq war (Again, the US supported Iraq with WMD, helicopters and critical battle planning assistance, so it looks pretty foolish coming to him 20 years later and saying, but you shouldn't have helped us fight our enemy Iran)

Group 3: Masses of Iraqi soldiers and buldozed into mass graves by US troops during the Gulf War. If you think that is a crime against humanity, you know who to blame)

Group 4: Sunnis and Shites massacred by Shiites and Kurds in the pose Desert Storm uprisings encouraged by the US. You can't blame Saddam for this, and when you read about the situation, what choice did he have but to put the rebellion down, just as the US is doing in Iraq today.

As put forth by regional analyst Sandra Mackay: "The rebels utilized their guns and numbers to seize the civilian operatives of the Baath government while former Shia conscripts turned on officers of the army. They hung their captives from rafters of an Islamic school, shot them in the head before walls turned into execution chambers, or simply slit their throats at the point of capture.' (The Reckoning: Iraq and the Legacy of Saddam Hussein, page 24) Dilip Hiro, another Iraqi historian, documents atrocities in the holy city of Kerbala: "Insurgents had attacked the army headquarters and seized weapons? They decapitated or hanged 75 military officials, some of them Shia, and tortured many more." (Desert Shield To Desert Storm: The Second Gulf War, page 402)

All said, several thousand policemen, clerks, military personnel and employees of the government were slain, according to Omar Ali, another regional authority. (See Crisis in the Arabian Gulf, page 147) Meanwhile in northern Iraq, Kurdish separatists were gearing up for their own shot at the regime. As far back as 1961 ? seven years before Saddam Hussein came to power - they had been staging violent attacks on Iraq's central government, trying to leverage off a piece of the country to form their own fledgling state.

Accepting Washington's pronouncements about a vanquished Iraqi military, up to 400,000 Kurds undertook a ferocious spree of mayhem that rivaled that of the Shia. According to Mackay, in Kirkuk "no one bothered to count how many servants of Baghdad were shot, beheaded, or cut to shreds with the traditional dagger stuck in the cummerbund of every Kurdish man. By the time Kurdish rage had exhausted itself, piles of corpses lay in the streets awaiting removal by bulldozers." (The Reckoning, page 26)

<http://usa.mediamonitors.net/content/view/full/433> /

Group 5: Rebels killed by the Baathist regime when putting down the Shiite and Kurdish rebellions (Saddam would merely argue that he did exactly what the US is doing now in Iraq -- using all necessary means to restore stability. How do you convict him for that?)

Group 6: Victims of the current invasion, estimated to be between 35,000 and 100,000 Iraqis. The US and UK killed these people.
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Yupster Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-28-05 10:47 AM
Response to Reply #22
25. Too bad for Saddam
that he's not being tried for any of these things that you give defenses for.

He's being tried for a single incident where there was an assasination attempt against him in a town. He's being charged for rounding up 140 men who lived near the spot and having them executed.

Supposedly they chose this particular incident to charge him with first because they found video of him ordering people to do the roundups and executions.

Evidence hasn't been presented yet so don't know what they have.

Anyway, if he's found guilty of this one, the other cases will never be tried, and he'll be quickly executed. So he may never have to think up a good reason why he drained the marshes.
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