Child porn a growing problem online, federal officials say

[Thom Little]

Peter Kirchof didn't understand what the big deal was. Kirchof, 22, told U.S. District Judge John Heyburn II that he couldn't remember when he first viewed child pornography online, but that someone sent him the images online.

"I didn't think it was that shocking," he said.

But, the FBI found it to be very shocking. Kirchof was arrested and pleaded guilty to receiving and distributing child pornography. FBI agents said they found 22 videos and more than 800 still images, including toddlers and infants being sexually abused.

Kirchof is one of several cases that law enforcement officials said underscores the federal government's attempt to crack down on what child advocates and law-enforcement officials say is an explosion of child pornography online.

"Frankly, policy-makers are trying to send a message that this is a problem that is out of control and we need a marker down," said Ernie Allen, a former Louisvillian who is president of the National Center for Missing & Exploited Children.


http://www.kentucky.com/mld/kentucky/news/13330284.htm

[RandomKoolzip]

1. "NOT shocking?!"

I wish this guy would explain how seeing kiddie porn pics were "not shocking."

[LostinVA]

29. I know -- kinda really creepy, eh?

[NashVegas]

63. Tragic

If this guy was on the net at least since WWW, he could have been anywhere over 12.

And with kids, who knows? I used to play an online game where some young Nordic boys had a predilliction for posting web links where people could go view pics of said boys *ahem* enjoying themselves. Showing off.

Some days it seems like there really is nothing that someone, somewhere, isn't perfectly ready and willing to exploit for gain. I'm not shocked. I'm not even surprised. It's encouraged and obviously I'm not just talking about sexual exploitation. Whether it's 3rd world sweatshops replacing union jobs, factory farms, etc., etc. It permeates our culture, and screaming 'foul' while all the other shit goes on almost feels like sticking your head in the sand.

So sure. Round up the kiddie porn purveyors and put them in jail. But there's always going to be someone else ready to take their place and sell the candy to the junkies.

[Jack_DeLeon]

147. Well technically "child porn" could be...

pictures of 15, 16, and 17 year olds have sex.

I wouldnt particularily find those pictures to be shocking since that would be quite normal.

[sui generis]

2. big problem, the child pornographers are EVERYWHERE

"Frankly, policy-makers are trying to send a message that this is a problem that is out of control"

YES so we'll have to get rid of all pornography to save the children.

This is kind of like their statistics on meth addiction:

one in five teenagers tries it and gets addicted, so we have to regulate sudafed.

Okay, so, that means there are, like, 80 million meth addicts running around snortin' meth and smoking ice, right? How come I can't even find one?

Hmmm. I don't have an advanced degree in stochastic modeling or anything, but it don't add up. Nope it don't.

_________________
if you were to ask me, I'd say that exaggerating the problem makes it more difficult to deal with.

[WhiteTara]

8. want to see some meth cookers and users?

Come to Mendocino county in California. We have a rampant problem. Our county has about 15,000 people total and last year we had 425 in child protective services because their parents were unable to care for them because of their addictions.

Please use another metaphor. Meth is a real problem. :)

[sui generis]

15. not everywhere - sorry I can't comply

everyone likes to generalize on this topic, but it's really not a national problem that impacts everybody you know.

I understand that there are hotspots and not saying that it ISN'T a problem, but not a national emergency, and I'm not going to participate in the media mythology.

Again, as I stated, exaggerating a problem is as bad as completely ignoring a problem when it comes to dealing with a problem.

BTW that statistic is one I actually heard on CNN - so I just can't find one of these 80 million young addicted adults. That's also why I'm cynical.

[Northwind]

25. So, tell me...

How many children have to be absued this way for it to be an emergency? Give us a number, so that when we get to it, we can count on your support to try and stop it.

If even ONE child is abused this way, it is a fucking national emergency, if you do not see that, you should be ashamed.

[sui generis]

33. first of all let's get some things straight

YOU do not shame me or anyone on DU - sorry, it's not your prerogative.

ONE child is abused many ways every day, and not just sexual abuse. I have a huge problem with a total stranger like you making an assumption like you did about me, much less being disingenous enough to try to shame me about anything.

Northwind, you are out of line.

It is a problem. A problem and a national emergency are not the same thing. Rational heads will do much more to mitigating the kind of abuse that leads to children being abused like this than panic and hysteria.

If you want me to make a choice between being hysterical and ashamed, I'll choose being accused of shame any day, but at the end of the day I will have done more to prevent child abuse than somebody posturing to the crowd about it on DU like you.

For the record, I'm not in denial about the problem and I'm not supporting child abuse or any other bullshit you're going to use to convince yourself that I'm the evil bad dude here. It's just that when people start saying "national emergency" they start giving away everyone else's rights, and that's not a very progressive or productive thing to do if you want to deal with the CAUSES of child pornography and sexual abuse.

[JuniperLea]

3. child porn will be the excuse

for further regulation of net usage.

[benburch]

60. Exactly...

This is all about destroying our rights.

For example; "Child porn is bad so pornography needs to be prosecuted." Which is what they are doing right now, but adult porn has nothing whatsoever to do with child porn.

[Overseas]

122. I share this concern.

The horrifying images of child porn are far more likely to evoke the desire to clamp down on internet freedom than even ugly racist hate speech... Who wouldn't want to make all such appalling criminal child porn content traceable so that law enforcement could do the sneaking & peaking we've authorized in our terror of terrorism and bust the offenders? I believe law enforcement teams have been and will continue trapping and disarming child porn networks worldwide. They already have unofficial ways of tracing lots of internet traffic. Why do we need to broadly legitimize their covert techniques? I can't help wondering if some internet monitoring method they've been using for years may be exposed when the Democrats become the majority again so Republicans are scrambling to legitimize it so it won't be included in the list of crimes for which they could be tried and indicted.

[Danieljay]

4. Disgusting.

These children's wounds create the pathologies of the future. This is a horrific problem and one that needs to be addressed. I can only imagine the spiritual and emotional trauma that is also experienced by the men and women who investigate such abuse. God bless them all.

[MindPilot]

19. Yes, this is one of those things where everyone involved is victimized

I always wonder why? What is it that makes someone find a child sexually attractive? I'm not taking about a 14 or 15-year-old for whom the prohibitions against sex are relatively arbitrary. I mean pre-teens and even toddlers and infants like referred to in the article. Why are there so many cases and why is it such a pervasive desire that people will risk everything for the experience?

On edit: Having never actually found any kiddie porn on the Internet myself even during my--I have to admit somewhat frequent--searches for adult material, I wonder if the "growing problem of kiddie porn" is similar to the bogus "ritual satanic abuse" fear-mongering in the 80's.

[Danieljay]

24. I actually think its a real problem...

The internet has just fueled the fire and made it more prevalent and easily accessible: AND more easily tracked and prosecuted.

good post, MindPilot.

[Arkana]

95. Maybe you should read some of the posts at this forum:

Something Awful got ahold of these cribbed posts and decided to mock the rather fucked-up mindset of these creeps:

http://www.somethingawful.com/articles.php?a=3285

Warning: Do not do it unless you have a strong stomach.

[TheWraith]

99. Their minds are damaged.

The people who deal in this sort of thing--and they do exist--do it because they're mentally ill. Oftentimes, they themselves were sexually abused as children, and they're repeating a pattern, like a memetic disease. Either way, they've lost not just the mental line between legal and illegal, which a perfectly healthy person can cross, but they've also lost the line between right and wrong.

Realistically, the best thing for them and for everybody else would be to insitutionalize them, until and unless they can be proven cured, something that's not terribly likely to happen.

[LostinVA]

106. I don't think they are mentally ill, I think most are sociopathic

They know what they are doing, imo.

[melody]

5. absolutely, often because the legitimate adult industry has been decimated

There was no greater opponent to online (or any) kp than legitimate adult webmasters. Adult webmasters had tons of those sites shut down every year, simply because they crossed paths with it more than other online vendors. When the government started targeting legitimate sites, it strengthened kp sites. Based upon the rumors about BushCo and the Larry King people, it might make a cynical person wonder if that wasn't the point.

[JuniperLea]

11. Well, legitimate doesn't really make that right either

Hell, I remember passing porn around in high school before the advent of the internets and I never thought anything of it. I still have a set of mini Vargas playing cards that were my grandfather's.

But more and more I'm reading about how porn desensitizes people from the reality of sexual relationships with a real person... can't get off without it, can't get off with anyone that doesn't look like a porn star, can't make real, whole relationships work, etc., and the younger the person gets into it the worse off they are in real life. Sad, really. And the people who make those flix are treated deplorably, child or not.

I hate to think that I have to support the adult porn industry to keep the government out of my internet, but that is the position they are putting us all in. Sick and twisted.

[melody]

14. There are all manner of opinions on this

Who is to say what is right? The research disagrees with itself. Are we going to live everyone's life for them? Are we going to tell people what to believe, eat, drink, think, etc.? That's the same thing.

I'm not in the industry, but I write erotica and have this lobbed at me by people who don't want me writing what I'm writing, even though my work involves fairly conventional consensual behavior between adults. Personally, I think erotica is a very healthy outlet.

Where "porn" leaves off and "erotica" leaves off, in popular terms, is a matter of personal opinion.

Its by our actions, not our thoughts, that we are judged.

[JuniperLea]

17. Written word leaves it all in the mind

That is where the difference is. And since sex is 98% mental (even for men who are more visually stimulated, it's still all in the mind), that is saying a lot! The difference between reading erotica and viewing porn is worlds apart according to the recent research I've read... and I've not seen any research that disagrees with itself within the past two years. It also supports the child porn deal... people end up not being sexually satisfied unless it involves a child. Same deal, different photos/films.

[MindPilot]

18. Reading about sex and looking at pictures are different?

You just contradicted yourself by saying "even for men who are more visually stimulated, it's still all in the mind" If it is all in the mind--with which I am in complete agreement--then how is it that there is a difference in how that particular mental stimulation is achieved?

You seem to be saying words good, pictures bad.

[JuniperLea]

21. Yes, that's what I'm saying, or rather, research says

It's the type of visual stimulation that matters so no, I did not contradict myself. If you are visually stimulated by someone you love regardless of their looks (good or bad) you are more apt to have a solid, whole relationship. If you can only become sexually aroused by looking at porn stars, then you won't be aroused by the real women in your life.

Words leave you to your thoughts; pictures remove that step. Becoming dependent on the pictures leaves you little hope for fulfillment in the real world.

[KittyWampus]

118. Juniperx, Perhaps It's A Matter Of Words Involving More Creative Input

reading descriptions involves WAY more creativity. The reader has to generate the pictures.

viewing involves very little creativity.

IMO, viewing too much television, just about ANY television, can cause violent outbursts of some type because humans are Creative by nature.
Sitting passively in front of a tv means there's a lot of creative energy not being used.

[mongo]

125. I'd like to see that "research"

I smell a rat. I sell porn 50 hours/week. My wife and I watch it together a few times a month.

After 10 years together I can think of no one I'd rather be with, and have NO problem finding her arousing.

She's no porn star either.

Yeah, you get desnsitised to porn -- mostly, it becomes BORING.

We are just as likely to find something funny in a porno as erotic.

[Exiled in America]

136. Yup -- I'd like to see it too. I too smell a rat.

[LostinVA]

148. Probably because it's a busman's holiday to you

[Danieljay]

22. One persons porn is another's pleasure.

This is a difficult debate. I happen to enjoy written and some visual erotica and support others in that pursuit. There is often a fine line between what some people consider erotic art and what others consider filth. I personally know people who are offended at nude statues. Thats crazy. Look at our former attorney general and the Justice Department statues.

One thing is for certain: If it exploits children for sexual purposes, its wrong and needs to stopped. The welfare of the child takes precident over the pleasure of some damaged adult.

[melody]

65. aberration versus not

In the case of a pedophile, there is a psychological fixation accompanying anti-social tendencies, not "merely" a sex fetish. That's an entirely different thing. Someone drawn to mainstream porn does not act out fantasies. There is what's called a gain effect, where the fantasy is escalated, but that is based upon a short time period. Over days, the same level of interest averages out. Every piece of serious research I know on the subject underscores this. Can you direct me to the studies you're citing?

Men are primarily visual. I don't know where you get the 98% mental, but that doesn't comply with any data I've read. Men enjoy written porn, but not to the extent (as a generalization) that women do. You won't find many men reading slash fiction, for instance, though there are lots of women who do.

[JuniperLea]

75. Ever have a wet dream?

Men and women both have them. No physical stimulation at all... that would be 100% mental.

All feeling is in the brain. All physical stimulation is "felt" in the brain.

How many people can keep themselves from becoming aroused by thinking of something else, like the old cliche, baseball.

[melody]

83. Well, if we're dealing with vision as a discrete entity, then...

You brought up visual/image versus visual/written data. Visual data goes through the lateral geniculate body to the occipital lobe within the cerebral cortex, whereas written data takes another route. Doo dah, doo dah.

There's no substantive difference between visual porn and written erotica in response. Even written information is visualized in the brain.

[Chovexani]

23. I also write it as a hobby

And I completely agree with you.

[Danieljay]

20. good post, Juniperx..prepare for a flame or two..

You'll get a lot of "flaming" here when you talk about the effect of porn on mental health and quality intimate relationships but its becoming clear there is an correlation. Just ask any of us who have worked in mental health or any therapist about the effect of pornography and internet porn addiction (yes I said it, flame away) on relationships. Its a huge problem.

I'm all for freedom of expression among consenting adults and availability of erotic materials. That being said, what many people fail to see is the compulsion and addiction componant driving many in the porn industry is the result of childhood abuse which can lead sexual addiction and compulsion later on in life. If you were to examine the childhood history of persons struggling with sex addiction (compulsive masturbation, prostitution, multiple affairs, voyeurism, and sexual abuse) you'll find that 80% were sexually or physically abused as children. It all comes full circle.

For information on sexual addiction recovery:

"Don't Call it Love"
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0553351389/103-3841046-0279842?v=glance&n=283155

"Out of the Shadows"
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/1568380550/103-3841046-0279842?v=glance&n=283155

Patrick Carnes
http://www.sexhelp.com/about.cfm

[JuniperLea]

26. People who like porn don't want to admit they are at risk

But I've talked to professionals, counselors and marriage counselors on this topic and I've read tons of research and they all agree. It plays hell on relationships! Even if both parties are in agreement and view porn together it is highly addictive and leaves no room for much needed spontaneity in relationships.

No thanks! I'll take my whole, complete, loving, sexual relationship any day! It's what's in the heart and mind that matters. Not to mention supporting an industry that takes such evil advantage of it's workers and customers.

I don't want to come across as some anti-porn activist though. I'm more of a healthy relationship activist;)


PS - you give great info with the links!

[LiberalGuy000]

32. "evil advantage"?

How is the industry taking "evil advantage" of its performers when the performers are free agents who choose to work in adult entertainment and are able to read the contract before they sign on the dotted line?

And how is the industry taking "evil advantage" of customers?

If you don't like movies with explicit sexual activity, then don't watch them and don't buy them.

[Danieljay]

44. read the interviews of some ex porn stars

and the child hood trauma (physical as well as sexual) that often led to the choice of working in the porn industry. Is it their choice? You bet it was. But it is often a choice of someone that didn't believe or know there was any other kind of choice available.

Is this ALL of them, nope. but a good percentage. Supporting the industry indirectly supports the abuse that often happens. Yes adults ultimately make their own decisions and are responsible for those decisions. I'm not about to suggest we "ban" erotica or the adult industry. Thats not my argument and not what I believe.

Originally we were talking about children here. And they need to be protected because they DON'T make the decision. A damaged and sick adult makes it for them and the kids should be protected.

[JuniperLea]

47. Just as pedophiles make decisions to use children

Making that decision as an adult and making that decision as an adult with mental illness issues related to their own traumas are two different things. Goes for adult porn stars too. I couldn't have said it better myself, Danieljay.

[LiberalGuy000]

71. well, well, well

You two have made quite a little duo here. The anti-porn team. Good for you. You're morally superior to those of us who like to watch sex.

Of course, you're both wrong, but that's meaningless to you, I'm sure.

[JuniperLea]

74. I'm not anti-porn

and if you had been paying attention you would know that.

If you are going to say I'm wrong then you need to prove it.

[LiberalGuy000]

70. of course!

Yes, of course, you're going to read stories about those who say they were "traumatized" by the industry. The media isn't going to report on the vast majority who were happy with their work - that wouldn't sell!

"it is often a choice of someone that didn't believe or know there was any other kind of choice available." You've got to be kidding.

[Danieljay]

84. that damn pesky media again

Is this the vast left wing or right wing anti-porn media conspiracy? First, I didn't say they were "traumatized" by the industry. If you read correctly you would understand that I said they were more likely than not "traumatized" as a child which just may have contributed to them choosing such a career. We all make choices as from a consciousness of our sum total of past experiences. Childhood sexual and physical abuse can play a role in that.

[Exiled in America]

28. I think this is an over generalization

I've thought a lot about the adult industry and whether or not it has positive, negative or no effect on individuals and society. Fortunately I got over feelings of guilt or shame about sex a long time ago, so I can just think about the impact without being bogged down with an imposed since of guilt from a religion or some other source.

Unfortunately, I think it is just too difficult to draw general conclusion about the impact of the adult industry. It's a lot like the video game controversy. We know that given the right context and set of environmental variables, it seems relatively easy and understandable to draw connections between the escalating levels of wanton violence in video games, television and other kinds of entertainment. People are not stupid for fearing that such things could desensitize children to violence.

But at the same time, I played every violent video game on earth, and still do, and I turned out to be healthy and well adjusted with a very strong and progressive sense of moral values and a commitment to non-violence solutions in the world. Why? Clearly there were other forces and variables at work in my life that either a) balanced out the potential desensitization from violent games and such or b) put such entertainment into appropriate contexts so that I could form the right attitudes and make the right judgments about them.

The same is true for adult entertainment. Not everyone who watches porn is some thirty year old single man living with Mom who hasn't been able to have a real relationship with a girl for 15 years. Not every person who finds pornography acceptable lives a debaucheries life or mistreats women. In fact, we seem to forget that no all pornography is watched by men at all. Even generalizations about the porn itself don't work. Not all porn is male-centric. Not all porn is men dominating or in some way degrading women. Anyone trying to make blanket statements about it is grossly oversimplifying.

Even saying that the people who make the pictures are treated deplorably is simply untrue. It can be true, but it is frequently not true. Some people seem to find it difficult to deal with people who actively choose that kind of career, but all you have to do is watch some documentaries, both in support of or against pornography and they will both concede that it that kind of claim is often not the case at all.

I think in the end there are only really two things we can honestly say about porn. The first is that pornography like most everything else in life can be misused. Because there is so little regulation or control on the industry it can be bad on the workers, though it is not always bad. Pornography abused can certain lead people to bad attitudes and dark places. But that is not always the case, as there are plenty of examples of couples and individuals who regularly watch porn without it undermining their basic mutual respect and relationality.

The bigger question is not a micro-level question: we can always find examples of individuals who are different than the norm. The real question is on a macro-level: what does pornography to do and say about society on the whole? Is there a macro-level social trend toward more depersonalizing and objectifying relationships? We know that in our society we see the breakdown of relationships and interaction on many levels - is this in part because of pornography - or is pornography a symptom of our problem, not a cause? Or is it neither a problem nor a symptom of a problem?

My personal belief is that while individuals in a specific context may watch porn with no problem and no negative issues and it may be perfectly fine for them, I believe that on the whole, the continuing slide of society into relation-less, passionless, "fast food" sex, instant gratification and superficial pleasure society is a huge and colossal mistake. I don't actually believe "porn" is a cause as much as I believe it is an effect of the problem. The problem is a lot larger than the adult entertainment industry -- its at the root of our entire evolving societal attitude of depersonalization and instant gratification without accountability or responsibility.

I think if our society begin to have a re-awakening back to more subject-to-subject kinds of relational attitudes between people, we would see a correlating decline in the amount of participation in the adult industry, as people began to gravitate back toward relational experiences that require just a little bit more work and have a lot more reward and long term benefit, and away from the "McDonald's" side of sexuality.

[JuniperLea]

30. Do you call years of extensive study

into the effects of porn on healthy relationships generalization? Many don't realize the effect it is having on their real relationships until it is too late. The statistics on desensitization are overwhelming. Sure, maybe it won't effect 10% or fewer. Symptom or cause? Who knows. I think that is very individual, but the fact remains that an overwhelming number of people who use porn (especially those who started in their early teens) cannot have a satisfying relationship, period. I'm not talking about the 30-year-old living with mom; that is an extreme case. I'm talking Joe Average walking down the street who can't get full satisfaction with Joe Average sex with another human being. Or married Joe Average who has a willing and wanting wife at home who isn't getting enough while Joe and his fist are whooping it up in the next room...

[Exiled in America]

39. Sure do.

There have been years of extensive study into porn and healthy relationships, and you know what they conclusively show? They conclusively show that nothing can be conclusively shown. Studies do not all argee on the conclusions, nor on the causes associated with the conclusions, nor on the effects connected to the conclusions. Those are a lot of variables.

You shouldn't be able to continue citing "years of extensive study" without giving some numbers. I'd like to see the consensus of studies which show the "overwhelming number of people who use porn...cannot have a satisfying relationship, period." As I said before, talking about "porn" in this way is very much like how people talk about violent video games in the never ending debate about that. Violent video games can be an aggravating factor for a person in a specific context -- they are not for many others. Context matters. There is simply no conclusive evidence right now showing an overwhelming 1:1 connect between violent video games and youth violence.

Likewise, despite your claims, there is currently no evidence right now showing an overwhelming 1:1 connect between pornography and an inability to have a relationship. There is no consensus here. Studies done to date do not agree with each other.

You sound like a person speaking from complete outside of any (or much) experience with adult entertainment, or with different people, couples, and genders of people who have point and don't elevate it to the status of serious, life altering phenominon such as you seem to. You could probably benefit from a little more exposure to such people, just to get a broader perspective on what you're talking about.

[JuniperLea]

48. You must be reading very old material

The groups of people you note are part of the groups of people used in current studies.

No, I am exactly the opposite of what you are saying and I don't care to divulge my past history with this subject. I've had far too much exposure, thank you very much. As I said earlier, I've talked to many therapists, marriage counselors and read many, many CURRENT studies and all are in agreement.

Do your own internet search, the studies are out there. Make sure you read reputable clinical studies supported by actual medical and psychological doctors and organizations.

[Exiled in America]

56. No, they are not.

I am not the one making the claim - you are. It's you're responsibility to support the claims you're making with credible evidence. So far you've been unable and unwilling to do so.

You remind me of me many years ago. I used to have more absolute opinions about porn like yours and I would argue with my friend about it. I would constantly refer to the "overwhelming evidence" supporting me, even though I had no idea what I was talking about and was not even remotely familar with one tenth of the actual research out there. I just beleived I was right so much, I didn't mind stretching the facts a bit. Sound familiar?

If you're the exact opposite of what I'm saying, that too can be a problem. Just because you had YOUR experiences does not make them the experiences of everyone else. That's like someone who says "I regret my choice to have an abortion therefore I don't believe any women anywhere should have the right to choose." Doesn't really work. Sorry your experiences were bad - that's doesn't make them universal.

[LiberalGuy000]

104. Okay, we get it

You believe that porn is responsible for the breakup of many relationships. Hooray.

Now leave the rest of us alone while we enjoy ourselves. }(

[sui generis]

46. well Joe's fist belongs to Joe for starters

not to society at large.

There are always going to be addicts. You can't measure every problem in the world by addicts. There are a reliably documented number of water intox cases too that destroy relationships, but we don't seek to ban water.

You've made an unfounded assertion that people who "use" porn (like it's cocaine or something) can't have a satisfying relationship. That's just nuts, but then that's my experience, and I'm not hypersexual, but both my partner and I enjoy a "robust" range of personal entertainments, and it enriches our relationship.

At the end of the day, if you took away the porn, we would still have a great sexual relationship, so porn is not required to have either a bad or a good relationship, and it's nobody else's business to tell me what I can't do in that regard.

What a bunch of prudes here! We should start the Prudish Schoolmarm Underground for ya'll.

:evilgrin:

[JuniperLea]

49. I'm about as far from prudish as you can get!

And you aren't reading the lines and reading too much between the lines. I'm just saying, if porn is involved and a person isn't having meaningful relationships or any real relationships or is substituting porn for a relationship with a fully willing partner who feels they aren't getting enough, then something is amiss. Sure, it's Joe's hand, no doubt, but don't you think its a little odd that wifey-poo is lying in the next room wanting and not getting sex with Joe because he can't do it with her but can do it to porn? And wifey-poo is gorgeous and could have many other men if she wanted them, but would rather have the man she loves.

[sui generis]

64. wifey poo?

:rofl:

Okay, I see you actually have a sense of humor.

But seriously, one shouldn't just lie around looking sexy if one wants to have sex. I have gotten many a good nights sleep doing just that ;).

Both partners have to be engaged - but it may not be an issue of gorgeous partner laying in bedroom if she's a shrew or if he's a drunk or other relationship problems manifesting themselves in seeking to be apart sexually. Break up the routine. Do something new (not necessarily sexual) together that requires both of you and reminds each of you why you married the other, instead of focusing on the frustrations and things that push you apart. Have a date night once a week where each one picks what you're going to do and you can't do repeats. I mean date, not code word for sex. Afterwards, plan on going home together and being together, no computer or porn. If you can get a committment on that then let them have a "private" moment every once in a while with no guilt, or take one yourself.

And seriously, a good relationship should be able to discuss fair-use-of-porn and set some guidelines constructively without hard feelings. We ARE sexual beings. It makes it easier for everyone if everyone knows the expectation.

:hi:

[Danieljay]

86. It comes down to use vs. abuse..as with all addictions.

The point that you no longer control "it" (meaning whatever "it" is; porn, compulsive masturbation, alcohol, drugs) and it becomes compulsive there is an issue. Ultimately, until one experiences that point, they have no idea the power of addiction and its affects.

[JuniperLea]

110. Try getting pushed away

when you try to start something. Then find out your lover was doing it to porn while he couldn't do it with you. I'm not saying his wife is just laying there.

[sui generis]

112. you are speaking in exceptions

there is a bigger problem than porn in that relationship. You are in complete and total denial to think that it is only porn.

I'm sorry Juniperx I just don't agree with your premise. I'll promise you something - if porn wasn't around or even possible, that so called relationship would still suck. Even if whores or other trysts weren't available, there still probably wouldn't be sex.

There is a problem that is NOT being addressed when you blame the issue on something outside of the relationship, and you can spend your whole relationship trying to "fix" the things outside of it that you perceive are the issue, but your relationship will still be broken at the end of the day.

You have to fix the relationship.

[Exiled in America]

137. That's absolutely right. Well said! (nt)

[mongo]

127. Porn becomes an attractive scapegoat

for other underlying problems in a relationship.

But it is far easier to blame porn for relationship problems than to actually adrress real problems that created a lack of intimacy in the first place.

[Danieljay]

85. He didn't say that people who use porn can't have satisfying relationships

What I read is that using porn can have an negative effect on relationships. How many marriage and family therapists have you spoken to lately about this?

I don't think anyone is saying here that porn destroys all relationships and that at some level it can't bring some couples together sexually. I think what is being discussed is that more often than not, and most marriage and family therapists would agree, that pornography has the opposite affect. It often times objectifies men and women as sexual objects void of real intimacy and increases the chance those with problems with pornography of having a higher potential for relationship problems.

Am i advocating for banning pornography? No way. What I'm advocating is the fact that regular use pornography is becoming a major cause of intimacy disorders in family relationships. I see it every day.

[LostinVA]

107. Great post -- you hit all the points that Juni and I were trying to

[sui generis]

113. I have never been unhealthy enough to require counseling

but someone who makes a living "seeing it every day" will have an equally warped view of the world.

I don't know what you do, but it seems to me that a marriage counselor would start to tend to see the world in terms of marital issues, and that's not reality.

The number of people who have such an issue that they require counseling are not representative of the real world, and as someone who I presume is an LMSW or MSSW or LPC I have to assume you understand that.

Your statement "regular use of pornography" is a telling one. The correct semantic conclusion should be "for some people predisposed to addictive disorders including sexual addiction, the regular use of pornography can have a detrimental effect on the sexual aspect of a relationship."

Everything else is assertion and inappropriate generalization.

[Danieljay]

116. your semantic conclusion is off..

the regular use of pornography doesn't just have a detrimental effect on the "sexual" aspect of a relationship my friend, it effects ALL aspects of the relationship. Its not just about sex.

[sui generis]

120. Danieljay we do not agree on this topic

Your obsession with it speaks volumes - for MOST people it's not a problem.

Do not generalize to MOST people. Do not seek to make laws based on these generalizations. It is clear that you are anti-pornography for reasons that are not as clear as you are trying to make.

It is my observation that people who resort to pornography as a means of sexual satisfaction and to the exclusion of other aspects of their relationship have MUCH bigger problems than pornography.

Obsession with pornography, like eating disorders or being a religious fanatic are symptoms of other underlying problems, both personal and interpersonal. Some of them are temporal issues, and some of them may actually be more serious. Eating disorders "have a detrimental effect on the "sexual" aspect of a relationship my friend, it effects ALL aspects of the relationship. Its not just about sex." too. Why single out pornography?

To be rude about it the fantasy is almost always better than the reality, and unfortunately that IS reality. If you are unsatisfactory in bed yourself for whatever reason, you need to either work to improve your skill set or else yield the field, but crapping on about the evils of pornography isn't going to change the fact that there is a different and real problem that you are in denial about if the relationship could be characterized as "normal" in most other regards.

Anyway, it just seems odd that a "progressive" could be as concerned about this topic as some people in this thread seem to be. The solutions you propose involve controlling someone else's behavior to treat a symptom, rather than treat the cause, and I find that odd.

[Danieljay]

126. You obviously haven't gotten what I've said

Perhaps I haven't been clear enough and if thats the case I apologize. I never said "most" people. I never said I was "anti-pornography". As a matter of fact, I support (to the exclusion of child porn) your right to look at, purchase, masturbate to, or share with a partner all the pornography you can lay your eyes and hands on. I never said that people who resort to pornography don't have "MUCH" bigger problems than pornography. I said the opposite as a matter of fact (somewhere in this thread). Pornography addiction is more often than not a symptom of an underlying intimacy disorder and is not unlike other addictive disorders). I never said pornography was "evil". I've never proposed "controlling" someone elses behavior to treat a symptom. I never suggested anyone should "make laws" or ban pornography based on my observations (no, not generalizations). As for making generalizations, you just said that for "MOST" people its not a problem. Thats a generalization in itself based on your experience. Thats not my experience and I will continue reaching out to those that are caught up in sexual addiction and compulsion to assist them in finding out for themselves the underlying issues that drive their addiction. I'm not talking about those that don't have a problem.

You seem to imply (in your 5th paragraph) that this is somehow about me and I must be in denial about something. Cheapshots and personal attacks trying to somehow imply that because we have difference of opinion I'm in "denial" about something is totally disingenuous as to what I've tried to say here about the damage that I have seen done to relationships as a result of sexual compulsion and addiction to pornography. That is kind of tactic I despise in our common nemesis within the right wing of the Republican party.

Pornography doesn't "cause" sex addiction any more than alcohol or drugs "cause" substance addiction. What it does do is perpetuate the cycle of abuse, low self esteem, trauma, and intimacy disorders that are often the roots of addition in the first place.

I'm not on some kind of anti-porn crusade any more than I would be anti alcohol or drug. If I was, I would be a hypocrit. And as a man who is committed to personal growth and integrity that is not something I am willing to take on.

You need not spend your energy defending your personal civil rights to make your own choices including using pornography. As a progressive (believe it or not) violating your civil rights is NOT my battle nor my intention. If you haven't yet figured out what my intention is we probably have nothing else to talk about. I actually think we have more in common than you think. Thanks for the discussion.

[sui generis]

131. sorry - was speaking in global "you"

not meant to be a cheap shot or taken personally, did not mean to offend and was certainly not aimed at the "you" that is you.

My defensiveness (and that of some others here) is that this kind of conversation in the past has become an exposè of anti-porn crusading right here on DU, and some of it has been subtle. Maybe it's the "once burned" syndrome that you are experiencing.

It's hard to make a point when you have to keep pointing out that people aren't getting your point. As I'm sure you have discovered, what people do for sexual gratification when it's not a problem is often easily judged by others as a problem, which may account for some of the polarization and defensiveness on this topic.

My cynical take on it is that people who are flawed enough to develop or exhibit primary compulsive sex and sex addict behaviors are rarely permanently "cured", even with significant intervention, and rarely if ever with cognitive therapy.

For everyone else for whom it may be a result of other relationship problems, when the underlying issue is addressed, that problem tends to go away. For the most part, if we didn't make so much out of sex to begin with, the "forbidden" lure of it wouldn't make "illicit" porn as desirable either.

Personally, people need creative hobbies. Pounding one's pud (I didn't use "you"!) is not a hobby, and is a rather sad favorite pasttime to claim. I wouldn't want to "rescue" someone in a relationship who was that limited without having to seriously address the real issues of codependency and BPD in that case. Life is too short to waste heartbeats on serious problems that can't be permanently fixed, and I'm a really bad martyr for the cause.

A relationship is like a house. My advice is to choose well first before you buy, and to recognize a clunker and do something about it when you have one.

Fixer uppers are pure vanity; stay away from them unless the "fixing up" is just mostly cosmetic. Like a house, relationships develop doors that stick, leaky plumbing with age, burnt out lightbulbs, and the occasional baseball through the window. These are all things that inevitably happen and making a big deal out of regular maintenance and replacing lightbulbs and broken windows means that you're focusing on the wrong aspects of what is important in the house. But if the house itself is full of mold, it means that something is regularly wet. Treating the mold without fixing the wet means it's bound to get moldy again, until ultimately it is unlivable, and SOME houses can't be fixed no matter how much you do.

One also has to be honest about that house and not attribute mold in the house to faulty lightbulbs.

Same thing here - if you see tons of relationships falling apart due to porn, I would just ask that you evaluate whether it's really the lightbulb that's causing the mold.

[booley]

139. I'm stil waiting on your proof

You keep using words like "overwhelming" and how somehow those who watch porn and don''t have issues just aren't aware of thier issues yet.

Excuse me but I have heard these kinds of arguements before from the ex-gay ministries that claim that all homosexuals are secretly unhappy and psychologicaly damaged and those that aren't are but just don't realize it yet.

And I have yet to see the studies you keep reffering too. The closest I have found all come from the religouse Right, who are frankly sexaphobic.

In fact, I too have seen studies on porn and I have my own personal experience and I simply am not seeing what you claim.

I have no problem outlawing child porn. And children shouldn't have access to porn. But what children can do and adults are free to do are two seperate things.

The posters above are right, the biggest danger to being desensitized to porn is that porn becomes boring..like anything else you get over stimulated on.

[Danieljay]

31. Very well said...

There are many levels of issues that need to be looked at. that being said, the effect of porn on interpersonal relationships is becoming pretty well established, and its overwhelmingly negative.

[LiberalGuy000]

36. porn and relationships

If a relationship is supposedly broken up by porn, then the relationship wasn't that strong to begin with.

I don't buy the argument that porn is responsible for the breakup of a marriage or relationship for even one second.

[sui generis]

41. exactly - weak relationships are responsible for the breakup of

weak relationships.

First of all, saints and sinners don't marry well in the long run. If one or the other has to be dishonest to keep the relationship together, it's already unstable.

I recognize that my partner likes to look at pics of pretty people (so do I), and I'm still fulfilled and not threatened (cause I'm not hard to look at myself), plus got me own collection. I also recognize that even if I did care or if I made a big deal out of it, it wouldn't change the fact that he likes to look at pics of pretty people. All I could possibly do is either regulate it fairly or get over it.

If I didn't want the noise from the airport, I shouldn'ta bought a house next to the runway. It wasn't living next to the airport that destroyed your relationship with your house. It was buying the house there to begin with.

[VegasWolf]

50. Bad Girl!!

:spank:
:toast:

[JuniperLea]

55. Then you must be getting enough

That's not what this convo is about. The relationships are weak because they aren't whole because one person is prefering porn to the reality of a real relationship.

[Exiled in America]

59. also false.

Porn is commonly enjoyed by couples as part of their shared sexuality and expression, much like any other erotica or sex toys. You seem to think that the only people who use porn do so to turn down their partners and go masturbate by themselves instead...

[JuniperLea]

68. I never said that

Quit putting words in my mouth! Actually, I said in an earlier post that many couples use porn together and have no issues!

This isn't an all or nothing deal! Cripes! READ what is actually said and try to keep up, mkay?





http://www.beliefnet.com/story/177/story_17736_1.html

http://www.obscenitycrimes.org/clineart.cfm

http://www.sexualcontrol.com/sex-addiction-masturbation-pornography_01.html


THe last one is a test from a site dedicated to helping people with sexual issues. It dispels a lot of myths, many of which were blurted out in "defense" here today.

[LostinVA]

76. Juni, I understand what you're saying

I my own experience, I have indeed known several couples where the husband literally ignores his wife in the next room while he spends hours whacking off to pron. I was so perplexed by this. (and, for the most part, it is "him.") However, I just finished reading "Pornified" a few weeks ago, and what the author states -- and what her interviewees state -- explains alot to me. It's easier for many, many people to "engage" with someone on the computer whether than a real person. That's very, very simplified. I suggest everyone arguing about this on this thread read it. I certainly don't agree with everything she concluded, but I do find the case studies intriguing.

Questioning the overuse of porn, or bullying your partner into watching it, is not the same as being anti-porn. Come on! Moderation in everything... but alot of people can't be moderate about certain things: food, drugs, alcohol, exercise, porn, etc.

For the record, I myself am not anti-porn, and that's all I wish to say about that part of my personal life.

[JuniperLea]

79. Thanks, Lost

Pornified is a great book and no, I don't agree with all of it either. but there are some core truths that are supported by good, solid psychological study.

It is frustrating to be labeled a prude, I must say. My experience is that my libido is stronger than many men I know, so what to do? Heh!

[LostinVA]

97. No problem, Juni

And, I'm the opposite gender, but I understand! I am far from a prude myself.

My main problem with her book: quoting the only three librarians in the US who agree with internet filters so she could prove a point. Trust me, most of us in the library biz are flaming radicals! Even the 70-year-old Baptist grandmother.

And yeah, it was a great read.

[mongo]

128. Your links say it all

obscnitycrimes.org is run by morality in media, a far RW group that wishes to control everything other adults can view in the privacy of their own homes.

[Exiled in America]

138. DING DING DING DING DING DING -- BINGO.

[Exiled in America]

134. Uh, yeah ya did.

Quote:


The relationships are weak because they aren't whole because one person is prefering porn to the reality of a real relationship.


By the way.... THOSE are your expert sources? :eyes:

[sui generis]

62. well, then change the reality

the "reality" of the relationship sounds like the issue then.

"Getting enough" isn't the issue, plus it sounds kind of selfish. I know some people when faced with boring reality, a strained or difficult sexual relationship are going to pick what's more gratifying.

Anyway, a "whole" relationship is whole because both halves are whole to begin with.

[JuniperLea]

69. Exactly

And current findings are, at the risk of repeating myself, that many, many people cannot be whole or have whole relationships due to the desensitization that can come from using porn on a regular basis.

[LostinVA]

77. Exactly what so many people in "Pornified" say

Again, an interesting book.

[Arkana]

96. Let me see if I can tell what you're getting at...

You're not saying that porn is evil, correct?

But you are saying that when it starts to take precedence over normal human relationships (i.e. the person starts to prefer watching dirty videos, reading dirty magazines, etc. over having a normal, healthy relationship with a significant other), it's an addiction and the addict needs to get help.

Am I right?

If so, I can agree with that 100%.

Edited for clarification.

[LostinVA]

108. Bingo.

[mongo]

129. The problem with this line of thinking

is that porn itself is or causes the problem.

In situations where a woman is in an abusive relationship, we blame the man for his actions. If he beats her when he gets drunk, we may cite alcohol as a factor, but not the underlying cause.

Which is what I have been hearing from a few posters here.

[Danieljay]

42. How many wives and husbands have you personally counselled

who ended their relationship because their spouses have had multiple affairs, "cyber sex" chat, and spend hours every night viewing pornography online? Do the research, its out there.

The neurology associated with pornography addiction is similar to that of substance addiction as well as gambling addiction. As a matter of fact, several studies have show that in laboratory animals, when given the choice between a hit of heroin or sexual stimulation of addicted animals, the animals would choose the sexual stimulous every time. There is also a measurable affect on the level of neurotransmitters in humans (seratonin, norepinephrine, epinephrine, and dopamine) as a result of sexual addiction. You won't convince me that when neurotransmitters are affected that greatly that it doesn't affect the emotional health of those involved and ultimately the health of the relationship.

Does it happen to everyone? Nope. But for those it does its no small thing.

[sui generis]

43. so should we make laws for everyone as if they were all addicts?

or potential addicts?

That's the disconnect here. You can be addicted to "love" and water. That doesn't mean we should ban those either.

[Danieljay]

45. I never suggested we "ban" anything. I'm simply presenting the

facts as they have over and over been presented to me. I'm not about banning the adult industry. Not everyone is an addict and not everyone is a "potential" addict. There is room in what I'm talking about for personal responsibility.

[JuniperLea]

73. You don't make laws based on people

You make laws based on the effects of the "drug"...

Using your logic, we should make crack cocaine legal because not everyone is addicted to it after the first puff.

I'm not saying it should be outlawed, I'm just saying people need to be careful and understand the harm it can do to relationships.

[sui generis]

111. just the same, and I'll have to be blunt

stay out of my consenting adult sex life. It really is that simple. Fix your own relationships. Do not get the government to babysit for you or to set the standard for having what THEY think is a healthy sexual relationship.

It really is that simple. We're all grownups and we don't need legislative babysitting.

[VegasWolf]

115. Hear! Hear! I don't need prudes building fences. nt

:toast:

[Exiled in America]

61. pornography addiction does not equal pornography

Drinking alcohol is not bad.

Being addicted to alcohol is bad. Does that mean we should ban everyone drinking alcohol, or treat the sick?

Gambling is something millions of people do responsibilty. Some people have an addiction to it. Should we do away with it for everyone or better treat the addicted?

[LiberalGuy000]

72. I repeat

If an individual can't handle porn, they he or she shouldn't watch it. The same goes for people who can't handle alcohol, drugs, or gambling.

The majority of people can drink alcohol without getting drunk every time. Most people can also watch porn without becoming "addicted".

[JuniperLea]

82. Prove it

Prove that "most" people can view it without being negatively affected.

[ErisFiveFingers]

98. Viewing "porn" without negative effects...

'Prove that "most" people can view it without being negatively affected.'

According to the rather prudish Taliban, the average american is awash, daily, in a sea of "porn", effectively damaging the relationships of millions of people. Women are walking around in *broad daylight*, in the US, without having every inch of their skin covered, leaving men with the impression that other women might be more attractive than their own wives. Strange american women are even allowed to actually have friendly conversations with men they *don't know*, thus removing the wife's role as the sole intimate female companion. This kind of behavior threatens and harms society, because it makes society different, therefore, it's bad. ;-)

Uhm, yeah....

In all seriousness, any behavior which is outside the "norms" of a given society is often viewed as harmful, especially when it conflicts with the standing morals of a particular society, or may change that society. In the case of "porn" (however that's being defined, be it looking at bare ankles (oh my!) or BDSM videos), it does have an effect where a person may choose a less intimate form of gratification rather than seeking any (and *all*) gratification from their sexual partner. Does that make it a negative, or harmful, thing? Not in my book.

Generally speaking, if a couple isn't functional because one person in the relationship prefers a fabricated, or fictional, lesser encounter, to the real thing, the problem isn't the porn, it's a problem in the relationship itself. Porn is merely acting as a stand-in, or substitute, because the relationship isn't matching up with the needs and desires of a given partner. The same holds true if a person in a relationship would rather be fishing, taking a walk by themselves, or whatever. Porn is just a readily available substitute for a relationship that isn't working (for whatever reason). Taking away the porn won't magically make the relationship better.

[Danieljay]

103. Youre right about one thing for sure...taking away porn won't..

magically make the relationship better but I'll tell you one thing, get to the core reason the person is choosing porn over a healthy intimate relationship with a partner and you might just get somewhere. If its a true sex addiction, its all about an intimacy issue. A cheap imitation of the real thing.

I'll have to agree with the Taliban at least on one thing. Pornography does more harm than good. Would I ban it? Hell no. Prohibition doesn't work. What I'm more interested in is why we choose pornography over intimacy or what has caused someone to abuse substances as a way to escape. Note I used "abuse". Use and abuse are two separate things. That being said, sometimes its a fine line.

[mongo]

132. Well, porn is a 12-14 billion dollar business

I don't think that all the people buying it are obsessive about it.

[Exiled in America]

135. No, you prove it.

Prove that most people can't.

What's good for the goose is good for the gander.

PS - a bunch of religious nonsense BS sites does not count as "credible."

[TheWraith]

100. I'm sorry, but that's ridiculously bad science.

I've been trying to avoid commenting on this sub-thread, not just because of its pointlessness, but because I don't really have an axe to grind. But what you're pushing is just bad science. There's no way around it. Your argument is based on the oldest observational fallacy in history: post hoc ergo propter hoc, after this, therefore caused by this. Joe Blow watches a lot of porn, and Joe Blow's marriage collapses. Therefore, porn ends marriages. It's a fallacious assumption, one not backed up by evidence. Someone actually seeking information rather than looking to back up a conclusion would ask whether Joe Blow had prior intimacy problems, whether he was happy with his life... in short, whether the porn was a cause or a symptom.

As I said, I have no particular axe to grind here. But from my perspective as somebody who knows more than a little about psychology, I can honestly say this: pornography doesn't suddenly terminate healthy marriages any more than child porn turns normal people into raging pedophiles, or a couple round of violent games turns teens into Ted Bundy. A person has to have an existing vulnerability before they can reach that level of addiction.

[Danieljay]

117. Your really reading in to it...

I never said pornography "terminates" healthy marriages, nor did I say that child porn turns "normal" people into "raging" pedophiles. Normal people don't look at child pornography. Where in the hell did you get that from what I said?

Pornography/sex addiction in itself is an intimacy disorder in itself, a form of escape, which in itself leads to further intimacy problems. Its a common cylce of addiction whether it be pornography or substance abuse.

[mongo]

130. Would you say tha alcohol CAUSES physical abuse?

if a man gets drunk and beats his wife, I doubt if you would say that the alchohol caused the abuse. That alchohol in and of itself is dangerous.

Why do you see porn differently?

[JuniperLea]

52. That's not the point

Using all your sexual energy on porn leaves nothing for the real relationship. Porn does keep people from connecting in a very deep and meaningful, sexually loving way.

[Exiled in America]

58. Also based on numerous false assumptions.

Porn is often a part of people connecting together in deep, meaningful and loving ways. Couples do it together often, and it is no different to them then any other kind of toy or erotical that is part of their personal, relational sex life.

So no, what you say is not always true. By the way, my parents have been married for 37 years, and they are more in love today than I have never known them to be, and more in love than most other people I know. They don't have a problem with adult entertainment. It certainly hasn't kept them from connecting in a "very deep, meaningful and sexually loving way."

[JuniperLea]

66. I never said it was ALWAYS true!

You continually put words in my mouth and avoid everything else. It is impossible to have a meaningful debate with someone so closed.

If you had actually read what I wrote you would see that I too have said many of the same things you have! Jeebus H. Cripes!

[Exiled in America]

133. Yeah, ya did.

When you say this:

Using all your sexual energy on porn leaves nothing for the real relationship.

There is no qualifier there. There is no exception. You didn't say, for some people... You just made a blanket statement, and I pointed out that the blanket statement is false. Just because you don't like that I pointed it out, doesn't make it any less so.

The same is true for this:

Porn does keep people from connecting in a very deep and meaningful, sexually loving way.

Not "some people" or "sometimes" - no, just a blanket statement. The blanket statement is false. It's not that complicated.

[JVS]

145. Maybe you have it backwards.

Not being able to connect in a "deep and meaningful" :puke: way, might be the reason that people reach for the porno

[Exiled in America]

40. BS.

There's just really nothing else I can say about it.

Many, many couples use porn as an erotic part of their intimacy with each other and simply do not take it as serously as some of you folks seem to be taking it.

To them, its like saying that using a sex toy has an "overwhelmingly negative" effect on a relationship.... please.

[JuniperLea]

54. You aren't paying attention

There have even been many statements about using it with a partner. Methinks thou dost protest too much! Sheesh!

[Exiled in America]

57. Three posts is protesting too much?

I haven't read every post in this thread - just responding to specifically what you said in your post.

[JuniperLea]

67. You are responding mostly to things I have not said

and belitting me without knowing me and poo-pooing what I say and what I don't say.

[Exiled in America]

140. Actually, I quoted you directly.

[mongo]

123. Mostly Bad studies from Religious right sources.

Like Judith Reisman who claims porn releases "erototoxins" which directly affect the brain, therefore porn is not free speech.

But the body of real scientific research show no great ill effects from porn.

A short collection of links:

Feminists for Free Expression counter the argument that pornography promotes violence against women by stating that, "Studies in the U.S., Europe and Asia find no link between the availability of sexual material and sex crimes. The only factor linked to rape rate is the number of young men living in a given area. When pornography became widely available in Europe, sexually violent crimes decreased or remained the same. Japan, with far more violent pornography than the U.S., has 2.4 rapes per 100,000 people compared with the U.S. 34.5 per 100,000". People who say that porn is responsible for the many violent attacks that take place on women every year are probably the same people who claim that rock music makes kids shoot their classmates. There are evil people in this world who are going to do these things whether or not porn exists and, in this modern 'blame culture' of ours, some people are just determined to find someone or something to take the flak for it.

http://www.thefword.org.uk/features/2003/12/the_feminis...

What if you went looking for the harmful effects of the very worst kinds of pornography -- and they weren't there?

That's what happened to Canada Customs when it paid researchers to study customs officials who spend up to 15 hours a week reading and viewing material that goes well beyond erotica or even so-called hard-core porn.

Noted the researchers: "Their work most often focuses on materials of an extreme nature which deal with clearly unacceptable sexual activities such as incest, children in a sexual context, necrophilia, bestiality, and sex involving violence, bondage and degradation." Their study of 90 officers found:

* repeated exposure to such graphic pornography had little or no measurable harmful effect on the officers, 40 per cent of whom were female.

* only half of the customs officers who regularly review graphic pornographic books, magazines and films support banning sexual materials featuring violence and degradation -- the current Canadian law.

* one in six of the customs officers use pornography in their private lives; nearly half have in the past.

http://www.efc.ca/pages/media/ottawa.citizen.21sep96.ht...

Of course, if porn really is such a danger to society, the effort might be worth it. The problem is, the research doesn’t support the worry. And if recent studies by Danish psychologist Gert Martin Hald of the University of Aarhus stand up, it’s not likely to.

Hald recently conducted a yet-to-be-published study on the usage of porn by men and women in Denmark that showed porn has become a part of the sexual lives of most people.

In a representative sampling of 688 young people aged 18 to 30, he found that 98 percent of men and 80 percent of women had viewed porn. About half of those women used it at least once per month. Men used it much more often. About 38 percent of men used it three times per week or more, which makes you wonder what these guys do for a living.

We’re not talking Playboy, either. Hald didn’t count such images as pornography. For the purposes of the study, porn included “any kind of material which aims to create or enhance sexual feelings or thoughts in the recipient and, at the same time, (a) contains explicit exposure and/or descriptions of the genitals and (b) clear and explicit sexual acts such as vaginal intercourse, anal intercourse, oral sex, masturbation, bondage, sadomasochism, rape..." (Interestingly, this is pretty close to the definition used in many obscenity statutes.)

http://msnbc.msn.com/id/9504659 /

The "Danish experience" is often held up as good example.

In 1969 Denmark lifted all restrictions on pornography, and sex crimes declined. For example, between 1965 and 1982 sex crimes against children went from 30 per 100,000 to about 5 per 100,000. Similar evidence was found for rape rates.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/1986869.stm

[htuttle]

6. "Drug dealers, Child Pornographers, and Terrorists"

That's who they said they had to stop when they tried to sell us the privacy-invading 'Clipper Chip' in the late 1990's. Anything you want to pass, just say you have to do it to stop those three groups since nobody will stand up for them.

Fact is, the FBI has been redirecting a huge amount of energy toward shutting down the LEGITIMATE pornography industry in the US over the last few months. They even stated they were NOT ramping up efforts to stop child porn, but were rather more concerned about what they considered 'obscenity' between consenting adults (such as BDSM websites featuring adults). That should tell you a lot about what their real motives are.

If they wanted to stop child porn, they would try to stop child porn instead of channeling their efforts toward stopping legal porn. However, they DO find it helpful to wave the 'child porn' banner around like a bloody shirt everytime they want to restrict our rights. "Drug dealers, Child Pornographers, and Terrorists!" Oh my...

[Vogon_Glory]

7. Since There Are Only So Many Eyes To Go Around, Kiddie Porn

Since there are only so many inspectors' eyes to go around, only so much budget, and only so many agents in these times of right-wing ideologues' Starve-the-Beast federal budget philosophies, I expect that the biggest unintended consequence of Buckaroo Bush's war on adult smut will be increased growth for the ugly, immoral child pornography rackets.

I trust that Buckaroo's base will be satisfied with the consequences.

[WhiteTara]

9. the global markets have provided

a climate a great avenue for human theft and enslavement, Millions (please see google for the actual number) of people are being used this way and the rings are growing because of the profitiblity of sex slavery.

[WinkyDink]

10. It's a huge problem, BUT

IMO, Bushco is loving the collecting and ferreting out of this material, in the guise of trying to "identify the victims to rescue them".
Bushco is part of the problem.

[MrPrax]

12. The Growing Problem?

Besides journalists having fun with headlines, the growing problem is really the increasing demands by law enforcement to establish itself as arbiter of public speech and it's failure to understand 'civil rights', rule of law, accountability, evidence, etc.

Yes...the Internet does present challenges to those that wish to use 'hotkeys' to reboot the Machine with their own O/S...

[zbdent]

13. self-delete

decided what I posted would probably cause people to freak out on me . . .

[Lerkfish]

16. self-deletions make me freak out!

joking.

[okieinpain]

27. yeah, I'm waiting on them to find some kind of a large cache on DU

so they will have to shut it down and investigate all of the donors. just like on the x-files.

[sui generis]

35. some kitty porn, for those of us with a sense of humor

[LiberalGuy000]

37. gasp!

That's horrible! How dare you post such FILTH here! :rofl:

[NashVegas]

51. Little More Vaseline

On the lens, please!

Oh, and if you're looking for something more to get a snicker over?

from the original story:

For Kirchof, a possible sentence of 17 years in prison would be followed by deportation to Germany, where the former exchange student at Pleasure Ridge Park High School retains citizenship, said Assistant U.S. Attorney Madison Sewell.

What should we expect, with a school name like that?

[okieinpain]

53. what a little whore.

[VegasWolf]

88. Bad kitty!

:spank:

[LiberalGuy000]

34. keep the agents out of adult porn

If there's anything good that can come out of the FBI's revelation that child pornography is a problem, it's that they will hopefully keep their noses out of sexually-explicit movies made by adults and for adults.

[Porcupine]

105. So an FBI Agent sits around tracing and documenting child porn.....

for say six months or a year. Say he's the FBI's expert on child pornography and (s)he's veiwed tens of thousands of these images.

Then what do you do with this person? Is this like a person you pay to watch snuff films day in and day out? Maybe they don't get off on it but eeeeewwwwwww. Do we buy them a special little house waaaay out in the desert because I don't want them living next to me and my kids.

Anybody have a clue how this works?

[0007]

38. I feel well protected with Agent Mike here.

[Pavulon]

78. This is an easy one

Child porn is fucked up. People who make, distribute, and consume it should be jailed, for a long time.

There in no comparison between child porn and adult porn, like saying gays are child molesters. Totally off the mark.

[Tempest]

80. Stop Republican Pedophilia

www.armchairsubversive.com


Not a complete list by any means. It's at least 2-3 months out of date and there's been several more Repugs arrested or convicted since.

[Danieljay]

90. Jeezy Jozey! Wow..now thats interesting! n/t

[Endangered Specie]

81. Think people would object to capital punishment for child porn makers?

I sure wouldn't.

[LiberalGuy000]

102. oh yeah

Let's kill everyone who breaks the law and/or offends us. :sarcasm:

I categorically object to capital punishment.

[bemildred]

87. Yeah, yeah, the FBI thinks the FBI needs a lot more money and power. nt

[madmark]

91. exactly. Its the same "9/11" leverage logic they use for everthing.

[JVS]

146. Maybe Agent Mike needs to buy a new house, car, or braces for the kids

:hi: Hi agent mike!

[Danieljay]

89. A great quote on sex and relationships we might all agree on

Ok, we all have our views about porn and I think we all agree that child porn is bad. When reading back over the posts here I don't think anyone is advocating for a ban of adult erotica of any kind.

Anyway,I dug up this quote I think we all might be able to agree with that REALLY has the potential to heat up your relationship if taken on.

"The art of lovemaking can be complex. There are so many different ways to produce, heighten and sustain an orgasm. Yet, we all have our 'personal space boundaries'. Areas which we create subconsciously around ourselves as a means of defense... To allow another person entrance to our 'personal space boundary' is an act of total trust, but trust has to be earned, it doesn't come easily ... When that moment does arrive, when you can readily open yourself to another person, the possibilities and the delights are endless ... Experimentation can help introduce wondrous moments into your sex life, but it all begins, with trust ..."

If ya really want to spice up your sex life...learn to intimately trust one another. True intimacy is the best of all aphrodisiacs.

[madmark]

92. Does the quote apply to gloryholes?

[VegasWolf]

93. ROFL !

:rofl:

[Danieljay]

101. Self Deleted...don't freak out.

[upi402]

94. distraction story -don't look at Downing St Memo- look over there!

[Che_Nuevara]

109. I sincerely hope that you are not implying

that child pornography is a "wag the dog" issue.

The molestation, abuse, and rape of minor children is an issue that deserves some attention. And by "some" I mean "a lot of". To the exclusion of other issues? Of course not. But sheesh, it's raping children, for god's sake, not the Lewinski scandal.

[upi402]

141. they got you, it appears, i hope dead Iraqi kids matter to you...

Think about it. The media refuses to report bif issues and the neocon machine spits out distractions.
DUH!
____of corse child abuse is horrible_____

Obvously.
And why... ask yourself, "Why is it about sex" and "why not another race or nationality", and "why is it easier to forget the dead, especially when they don't speak english"

Many many lives are being destroyed by *
And many are being killed, with zero chance of recovery.
It's disgusting that the priority of the 80's and 90's is relegated to a distraction ploy by neocon evildoers.
No, not wag the dog -but emotion and sex and sympathy for kids we relate to -are distractions used by the corporate media. Not being callous, just attempting imformative. It's a cold * world and the rule makers are pure evil now and on a large scale.

So please don't even get close to accusing me of not caring about kids. You have no idea how off-base that would be.

Are you Christian?

[Che_Nuevara]

144. Nobody "got to me" ....

Of course 'dead Iraqi kids' matter to me. This war is terrible, and what it is doing to an entire people is horrible. Despicable. Unforgivable. I am mortified and sick to my stomach when I read the New York Times or the DU-LBN, every time. I would never in a thousand thousand lifetimes consider saying that this war is anything but tragic, racist, despicable, and horrifying.

That does not, however, mean that we should concentrate solely on it. That does not mean that other issues are not also worth our attention.


2 out of every 3 victims of sexual assault in America are minor children. Every year in America alone nearly 900,000 children are victims of abuse, mistreatment, or neglect. Of those, roughly 10% (90,000 per year) are sexually abused. At least 1 in every 600 girls under the age of 18 is sexually abused. Think about those numbers for a minute.

Then think about this. The estimated suicide rate among teenages who are/were abused is an estimated 10-14 times higher than peers who are/were not mishandled; instances of multiple substance abuse are 15-40 times more common. Those are not percents: those are multiples.

And before you go and say something you're going to regret, allow me to tell you that someone very close to me was raped by her father at the age of seven. Think about that: a seven year old girl. And then think about that happening tens of thousands of times per year.

That, in my view, merits some focus.

My attention to child abuse and mishandling is not the result of some "manipulation" by the evil corporate media. It is the result of my realization that a horrifying and despicable problem has infected our society and destroys tens or hundreds of thousands of lives per year.

Furthermore, to let a fear of being manipulated distract us from the issues that face society today would be detrimental and irresponsible. How about we stop letting fear and skepticism rule how we think and feel and pay attention to the actual issues facing the world today? It would do all of us some good to take our eyes off the sensationalist front pages and actually pay attention to the real issues eating away at the world today.

Real issues. Like war. Like child abuse. Like sexual assault. Like racism. Like denial of civil and human rights.

And I would really like to know which newspapers you read. Because the New York Times, the Baltimore Sun, the London Times, the South-German Times, the Frankfurt Community Times, and the other papers that I (at least semi-) regularly read focus enormously on this war. And yet I very rarely see articles about the abuse of children in them.


Maybe not everybody is, but I am capable of caring about war and child abuse at the same time. And I flat out refuse to give such a horrifying, sickening, rampantly destructive and damaging problem a back burner.

In closing, no, I am not a Christian, but I do not see in the slightest how that is at all relevant.

[bemildred]

142. Of course it is.

It depends on how it's used and by whom. "Wag the dog" issues are much better if they are real. Like "Gay Marriage" and Abortion and "Flag Burning" and drugs and illegal workers and the whole "Culture War" schtick. Better we fight each other than unify and vote the venal swine in Congress out, eh?

[upi402]

143. cool, unity is healthy in the main- huh?

just not blind faith, unexamined patriotism, and undeserved trust...stuff like that. If I spin out, please help me get going in the right direction again, okay?
:toast:

[SamuelAlito]

114. We on the Supreme Court

Have already ruled on this. As long as it's made from doctored "Photoship" Images (like the pictures on my blog).

The Right Honorable Samuel A. Alito, Jr.
The A Stands for Awesome

[porphyrian]

119. This is a happy chunk of horseshit.

They're using the horrible idea of child molestation to sway popular opinion towards allowing them greater control of the internet, nothing more. If they are seeing an "explosion" of child pornography now, it's only because they are looking in the right places for it. Think about it - how many of you are sexually aroused by pornography involving infants and small children? According to the National Alert Registry (http://www.registeredoffenderslist.org/), there are under 500,000 registered sex offenders living in the U.S. This includes non-child-related offenses, though still convicted sex offenses. According to the CIA website, our population is estimated at 295,734,134. This isn't a big problem, it's an unacceptable one. However, it also unacceptable for the government to use this as an issue to seize control of the internet, which is our last medium of free speech available, to cure a problem smaller than automobile accident deaths.

[sui generis]

124. you've nailed it. it's disappointing that we're roped into

flinging ourselves upon the ground and playing along, when what we really need is cool rationality, backed up by real numbers and addressed with real solutions that don't involve pandering to the lowest common social denominator.

[mongo]

121. Meanwhile at the FBI

They have take the focus of the Child exploitation and Obscenity unit OFF of child pornography and onto ADULT obscenity (porn).

And they've even created a 2nd unit to also go after porn.

Talk about screwed-up priorities.