Cubans barred from traveling to accept EU prize

[brentspeak]

HAVANA, Cuba (Reuters) -- The Cuban government is not allowing members of Cuba's "Ladies in White" opposition movement to travel to Strasbourg, France, to receive the EU's top human rights prize, the women said Tuesday.

For two years, the women dressed in white have marched in silence every Sunday along a Havana avenue to demand the release of their husbands and sons who are political dissidents jailed by President Fidel Castro's government...

http://www.cnn.com/2005/WORLD/americas/12/13/cuba.eu.reut/

[mattclearing]

1. That sucks. n/t

[Clutch Cargo]

2. Why is the Cuban govt. clamping down on these women? n/t

[madrchsod]

3. the same reason we keep people from coming here and going there

politics of tyrants

[Mika]

4. Its not. They did not file their visa request in time.

Just because the Cuban government wouldn't expedite these traitorous women's travel visas to Strasbourg doesn't mean that they are banned from travel. These women did not file for a travel visa until under two weeks ago, despite being invited to the ceremony in Strasbourg over a month ago. Methinks that they deliberately did this (on the advice of the new US interests section ambassador in Havana) just for the propaganda impact that it has obviously gotten.

[KamaAina]

5. Traitorous?!

I thought "dissent equals treason" only applied inside the Bush** White House. :eyes:

[manic expression]

6. Look closer

Cuba is under political and economic siege by the US. Those "dissidents" were paid agents of Uncle Sam. They were backed and supported by the US, the government that has actively tried to destabalize and re-introduce exploitation to the island for almost half a century (even other dissidents, who are not in prison, mind you, have criticized them for accepting US support). Dissent is very much legal in Cuba, but being supported by an aggressive power is not and should not be legal.

If a "dissident" in the UK was being funded by the IRA, how long do you think they would last?

I would like to remind you that the US has set up a special position to specifically deal with toppling Cuba's government. I would also like to remind you that the crimes those "dissidents" are in prison for are illegal in many countries, including the US (accepting undeclared foreign funds for political use).

Dissent does not equal treason, but trying to further American imperial interests does.

[brentspeak]

10. Did you drink the Castro Kool-Aid?

[KamaAina]

12. At least s/he gets to spike the Castro Kool-Aid with dark Cuban rum

just like everyone else in the world -- except, of course, for the "Land of the Free"... :eyes:

[Mika]

18. Do you drink Bush's Kool-Aid?

[brentspeak]

36. First symptom you may be a Castro stooge:

You accuse those who despise him of being right wingers.

http://web.amnesty.org/library/eng-cub/reports

[Kralizec]

39. Brentspeak = Doublespeak (nt)

[Mike Daniels]

41. Don't you know that AI reports aren't accepted here

when they criticize Castro and Mugabe?

AI only has value when it's a right wing or Republican supported dictator being reported on.

You'll learn... :)

[manic expression]

51. Common symptoms of being imperialist

You must first ignore the facts:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/4569981.stm

You must also ignore more facts:
http://members.allstream.net/~dchris/CubaFAQDemocracy.html

You must ignore even more facts:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/4726301.stm

Impossibly more facts must be ignored:
"But it's not hard to discover the origins of this dangerous standoff, which follows a period in which Amnesty International had noted Cuba's "more open and permissive approach" towards dissent. In the aftermath of September 11, the Bush administration - whose election depended on the votes of hardline Cuban exiles in Florida - singled out Cuba for membership of a second-tier axis of evil. The Caribbean island, US under-secretary of state John Bolton insisted menacingly, was a safe haven for terrorists, was researching biological weapons and had dual-use technology it could pass to other "rogue states". He was backed by Bush, who declared that the 40-year-old US trade embargo against Cuba would not be lifted until there were both multi-party elections and free market reforms, while Cuba was branded a threat to US security, overturning the Clinton administration's assessment.

Into this growing confrontation stepped James Cason as the new chief US diplomat in Havana, with a brief to boost support for Cuba's opposition groups. The US's huge quasi-embassy mainly provided equipment and facilities, but millions of dollars of US government aid also appears to have been channelled to the dissidents through Miami-based exile groups. The final trigger for Castro's clampdown was a string of US-indulged plane and ferry hijackings in April, against a background of US warnings about the threat to its security and Cuban fears of military intervention in the event of a mass exodus from Cuba - a scenario long favoured by Miami exiles."
http://www.guardian.co.uk/comment/story/0,,1009384,00.html

That's just the start....

[manic expression]

44. No, I actually know the reality of Cuba

why don't you parrot your fallacies elsewhere.

[Name removed]

57. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[manic expression]

58. Read

the "Who we are" or something. It doesn't say only Democrats.

I support the Cuban government's policies of helping their people instead of Uncle Sam's disgusting aims. Socialism has established equality and justice in Cuba, El Salvador, Chile, Kerala, Venezuela and elsewhere. I have no problem with proudly displaying a red flag while I stand for what is right. If you have a problem with that, I'm sorry that you succumbed to US propaganda.

Mr. McCarthy, is that you?

[brentspeak]

59. I think you forgot about your avatar

Looks a lot like Che Guevera, don't it?

[manic expression]

60. No, I didn't

"If you tremble indignation at every injustice then you are a comrade of mine"

-Che Guevera

I'm proud to display Che as my avatar, just as I am proud to be called a "socialist". Che Guevera was not only a courageous person who accomplished great things, but he is also a symbol for change. It's a sad day when self-described "liberals" oppose this.

I think you may have forgotten about your avatar. Looks a lot like Jefferson, don't it?

[Zhade]

95. This is NOT a site for the Democratic party.

It's small-d democratic - which, if you read the About section before you joined, you'd remember means not just Dems are allowed here.

[KamaAina]

13. I did not know that -- but I'd still think the women were dupes,

rather than actual traitors knowingly working to further U.S. interests. Pity.

I would like to remind you that the US has set up a special position to specifically deal with toppling Cuba's government.

Funny, we're actually pretty good at toppling foreign governments, most of the time; it's that pesky figuring out what to do with the countries afterward that usually trips us up. :sarcasm:

[Mika]

19. They were duped into repeatedly receiving money from the US ambassador.

They could claim that they didn't know that the US interests section was under control of the US government. They could claim that they didn't know that some of the millions of dollars the US house and congress approved to be used to support "dissidents" had been given to them (and their families) by the US ambassador, James Cason. They could claim that they didn't know that the money given to them by (that bastion of purity) the NED was purely for "democracy" building. They can claim lots of reasons that many Americans would swallow, hook line and sinker, wallowing in ignorance about the real Cuba now and in their blind hatred of Castro Castro Castro, as if he is the be-all end-all of Cuba. Pity.

[KamaAina]

37. Why would the EU be giving them a human rights prize, then?

The EU is certainly no fan of U.S.-backed subversive movements. Can it be that they, too, were unaware of the U.S. connection? If so, that makes me feel a little better...

[manic expression]

45. Perhaps they were unaware

or they did not take into account what they were actually protesting.

I can't answer that for you exactly, you should drop the EU an e-mail.

[Cessna Invesco Palin]

16. Well...

Those "dissidents" were paid agents of Uncle Sam.

Do you have evidence to support this assertion?

[Mika]

20. Here

Cuba Crackdown:
http://www.counterpunch.org/sandels04262003.html

Feb. 24 of this year, he participated in a meeting of the dissident Assembly for the Promotion of Civil Society at the home of prominent dissident Marta Beatriz Roque. Also present at the meeting were several reporters to whom Cason repeated his criticisms of President Fidel Castro's government and reaffirmed U.S. support for dissidents.

Cason organized two other such meetings at his residence in March even after receiving a formal complaint from the Foreign Ministry.

In a recent television interview in Miami, Cason said the help he gave dissidents was "moral and spiritual" in nature. But, according to the testimony of several Cuban security agents who infiltrated the organizations that received U.S. support, the Interests Section became a general headquarters and office space for dissidents. Some of them, including Marta Beatriz Roque, had passes signed by Cason that allowed them free access to the Interests Section where they could use computers, telephones, and office machines.

The State Department calls these activities "outreach." However, under the United States Code, similar "outreach" by a foreign diplomat in the United States could result in criminal prosecution and a 10-year prison sentence for anyone "who agrees to operate within the United States subject to the direction or control of a foreign government or official (Title 18, section 951 of the United States Code).

-

Evidence supporting the Cuban claim that dissidents are mercenaries of the United States is available on U.S. government Web sites. The Web site of the U.S. Agency for International Development (USAID) lists recipients of U.S. funds to support dissidents, independent journalists, independent librarians, and human rights organizations in Cuba.

For example, in 2000, USAID gave US$670,000 to three organizations to support "the publication abroad of the work of independent journalists from the island...and to distribute their writings within Cuba" (USAID report, Evaluation of the USAID Cuba Program, 2001).

The State Department's 2003 review of the Cuba Program, set up to carry out the regime change directive in the Helms-Burton Act, notes that the Cuba Dissidence Task Group "was created to support the activities of dissident groups in Cuba," especially the Group of Four--the group led by Marta Beatriz Roque. The task group received a US$250,000 grant in 1999.

US$280,000 went to the Cuba Free Press between 1998 and 2000, for "giving voice to independent journalists and writers inside Cuba."

CubaNet, which operates out of Miami, posts the work of independent journalists on its Web site. Florida International University, another USAID grantee, works with CubaNet to translate articles written by dissident journalists into English, French, and German. CubaNet received US$343,000 up through 1997.

U.S. admits/denies it funds dissidents USAID official Adolfo Franco said earlier this year that the agency had spent US$20 million dollar carrying out Helms-Burton mandates since 1997. Nevertheless, another USAID official, Alfonso Aguilar, denied that the agency funded dissidents, though he claimed it was legal to do so. He admitted that USAID gives money to nongovernmental organizations that in turn pay dissidents. But he argued that Perez Roque's accusations were "outrageous," because the payments did not come directly from the U.S. government.

Despite the implied USAID principal that indirect payments are a legitimate means to fund internal opposition in sovereign countries, the State Department said Perez Roque's accusation that the United States fabricated Cuban dissidence was "ludicrous."

Part of the case against Hector Palacios, a Varela Project supporter sentenced to a 25-year prison term, was that he had received US$3,000 in remittances from organizations in the United States as well as computers and other equipment donated by the Interests Section. Investigators found US$5,000 in cash hidden in a medicine bottle in his house. Another of the prominent writers arrested was Oscar Espinosa Chepe, who received a 20-year sentence. Interviewed on the Pacifica network's radio program Democracy Now (04/09/03), Miriam Leyva, Espinosa Chepe's wife, denied he had collaborated with the United States. She said he had only received US$15 per article from CubaNet in Miami. During the April 9 news conference, Foreign Minister Perez Roque displayed receipts indicating that Espinosa Chepe had received US$7,154 in such payments during 2002. At US$15 per article, Espinosa Chepe would have had to sell 477 articles or 10 every week that year. Perez Roque said that investigators found US$13,660 in Espinosa Chepe's closet and that he had not held a job in 10 years.

Dissidents were often paid with U.S. funds channeled through a Canadian bank. The bank allows Cubans to access U.S.-supplied funds with a Transcard (debit card).

Cuba and the Myth of the 'Independent Libraries'
http://www.zmag.org/content/showarticle.cfm?SectionID=54&ItemID=5960

A study titled "Payment for Services Rendered: U.S.-Funded Dissent and the Independent Libraries Project" was completely silenced. It was presented during the Pacific Coast Council on Latin American Studies, November 8-9, 2002 at East Los Angeles College by Mrs. Rhonda Neugebauer, bibliographer from the University of California, Riverside. She reported of the visit she had made in 2000 to Cuba in the company of Mr. Larry Oberg, librarian from Willamette University, to more than a dozen "independent libraries." She presented the following conclusions:

By interviewing the owners of these "libraries," we discovered that these "libraries" were carefully chosen drop-off and contact points for personnel from the U.S. Interests Section and others, who visited them on a regular basis, to deliver materials and money. We also discovered that by accepting anti-government materials and by developing "libraries" with these materials, the "librarians" qualified to be paid a monthly stipend--"for services rendered," as one of them put it.

Our interviews with these "librarians" contradicted a good deal of the PR campaign that their U.S. financiers had undertaken, and established the fact that the communiques circulated in the U.S. about these "libraries" were intentionally misleading and politically motivated.

Our research proved that what the "Friends of Cuban Libraries" campaign identified as a "force for intellectual freedom" was simply part and parcel of a U.S. foreign policy strategy that disingenuously advocated the "opening civil society" in Cuba through the funding of a variety of dissident groups. Over the last few years Washington has given millions of dollars to U.S. and Cuban groups to create a "civil society," that they hope leads to destabilization of the Cuban government and ultimately to a "regime change" in Havana.

In some cases, the "libraries" had ceased to exist because the "librarian" had moved to the U.S., or had given away the "library," anticipating a departure to the U.S. In one case, we confirmed that a "librarian" listed on the "Independent Library Project" webpage, had moved to the U.S. six years earlier, although his name still appeared as a director of a library in Santiago, Cuba, and he is cited as having been "repressed" and "intimidated" in Cuba for his library work.

We found that most of the "libraries" consisted of a few shelves of books in private residences and that their titles were typical of what is owned by many Cubans and by Cuban libraries. In fact, the majority of their books were published in Cuba, by the Cuban government.

We were told that personnel from the U.S. Interests Section delivered many of the items that were not published in Cuba, and that they received regular visits from U.S. Interests Section personnel who dropped off packages on a monthly basis along with money.

Since it was the first time any mention of money had been made in reference to their work, I asked, "What is the money for?" "For services rendered," the "librarian" responded. "These libraries help the opposition in Cuba and our leadership in Miami. They tell us what to do. They receive our reports and news. They give us money so we can do what we do here, be dissidents and build opposition to the Cuban government."

Keep in mind that the US government has declared itself to be the enemy of Cuba. It has held a trade blockade in place for 45+ years, which is tantamount to a declaration of war. The US has tried to overthrow the Cuban government by invasion. The US government has funded many ops against the head of state of Cuba many times. The US government has funded, and continues to fund, Miami based "exile" groups with a long history of funding, supporting and initiating terror ops against Cuba, Cubans, and Cuban interests in Cuba and elsewhere. The US harbors terrorists who have perpetrated heinous crimes against Cuba, Cubans, and Cuban interests.

Imagine the US allowing Al Queda, a declared enemy of the US gov that has perpetrated terra ops against the US, to fund "dissidents" in the US or fund and run "independent libraries" where the money was used for recruitment and other unaccountable missions.

Not for one minute would this be allowed in the US. But yet DUers condemn the Cuban government for cracking down on foreign funded ops and operatives who aid and abet the declared enemy of Cuba that has perpetrated terrorist crimes against it and the people. Pathetic.


Of course you could do some of your own research.

After all you do live in the best and most free country in the world. :sarcasm:

[Cessna Invesco Palin]

21. None of your information mentions this particular group...

...or any of its leaders. Do you have anything about this group specifically, or are you insinuating that every dissident in Cuba is a CIA operative?

[Mika]

23. This group is related to the US funded "dissidents"

The "Ladies in White" are the relatives and co operatives of the imprisoned traitors.

Cuba has many native born domestic political opposition parties and movements. They are not being interfered with. Only the groups who are aiding and abeting the declared enemies of Cuba for money are. As a matter of fact many of the leaders of Cuba's internal (non foreign funded) opposition denounce and decry the US's interference in the creation and funding of opposition groups, because it hurts the domestic and legitimate opposition political movements. Oswaldo Paya & Elizardo Sanchez are a few that come to mind right now.


Of course, most Americans have no idea about this because (being from the land of the free and home of the brave) we are travel banned from Cuba by the dictate of the US gov, so we cannot easily see the real Cuba for ourselves.

[Cessna Invesco Palin]

27. It's very convenient, isn't it.

To be able to arbitrarily decide who gets the right to oppose and who doesn't. As for "Only the groups who are aiding and abeting the declared enemies of Cuba for money" being put in prison, it's telling that both of the people you chose to mention as being legitimate (non-US-influenced) dissidents have served prison terms for speaking out against the government.

[Mika]

28. Wrong. At that time they were on the US payroll

Since, they have come to the realization that being on the US payroll only hinders their credibility as real domestic political parties. (You do understand that being on the US payroll diminishes credibility of being a genuine domestic party, don't you?) Now, Paya, Sanchez & Eloy Gutiérrez-Menoyo decry the US interference in the native Cuban political dialog & dissent.

They have come to the realization that the US intends to undermine the real domestic parties because the US has other intentions for Cuba/Cubans if the US can control the "transition" post Castro. That's the reason that the US spends millions of our tax dollars on various "Cuba transition /studies/projects/plans" in Miami and Washington. The US wants to put Cuba under its thumb, again. Cubans rejected that in the 1959 revolution, and they still do reject it.





-New U.S. envoy lays out his vision for a democratic Cuba-
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=102x1984977

http://www.sun-sentinel.com/news/local/caribbean/sfl-aparmlydec13,0,4622397.story?coll=sfla-news-caribbean

In the three months that Michael Parmly has been the top U.S. diplomat in Cuba, he has talked to many "awfully smart people" he thinks have the pulse of the island: the leading dissidents and opposition figures.

"I don't know when a change is happening," said Parmly, the chief of the U.S. Interests Section. "I just know that a change is happening."

Leading news organizations, including The Christian Science Monitor and The Economist, recently reported that the U.S. government's new transition coordinator for Cuba, Caleb McCarry, has stepped up plans to assist Cubans in changing their political and economic system. The Monitor reported that the plan includes rebuilding Cuba's utilities, punishing Cuba's allies and trying to subvert Castro's efforts to transfer power to his brother Raul.

"The whole idea that somehow Caleb McCarry is going to come in and supervise the transition in Cuba is absurd," said Wayne Smith, former head of the U.S. mission in Cuba under the Carter administration. "Cubans would never accept that, not even Cubans who oppose the government."

[Cessna Invesco Palin]

29. Oh, give it a rest.

Sanchez opposes these detentions. You can't hold him up as an example and then ignore what he says.

[Mika]

30. Ditto

"You can't hold him up as an example and then ignore what he says."


Back at ya.

[Mika]

31. More here

Just like in Iraq and in the US, the US government pays operatives inside and outside of Cuba to "report" anti Cuba fabrications.

It seems that some DUers support and defend the US gov/ _Bush administration's Cuban and Cuban-American versions of Armstrong Williams & Nancy Gallagher with a pinch of Al Queda mixed in.
:puke:



Covering and Not Covering Cuba
http://www.canadiandimension.mb.ca/v37/v37_4lh.htm

Roque held an open press conference in Havana shortly after the much condemned trial of the ©¯dissidents and independent journalists©˜ in early April. A respectable number of the 157 foreign correspondents operating freely in Cuba were there, but few found the testimony of one Nestor Sanchez Galarraga Baguer of any interest.

Sr. Baguer was Chairman of the Cuban Independent Press Association, an organization home to several dissident journalists revered by Canadian media.

It turns out that Sr. Baguer was recruited by the US Interests Section of Havana (the compound that houses American foreign service personnel) to create and/or distort information to feed to American sponsored counter-revolutionary Radio Marti, and to several other journalistic fronts as necessary.

A special open pass gave him 24 hour access to the US facilities including an Internet room where a couple of dozen other phoney ©¯independents©˜ worked. Sr. Baguer explained that they were told what to write about and paid generously in cash with money smuggled in through couriers. Among his assorted colleagues in disinformation was the alleged exiled poet Raul Rivero, also ©¯connected©˜ as a writer for the ultra-conservative newspaper, the Miami Herald.

Fortunately for the US Interests Section, Nestor Baguer was a real journalist who knew how to make phoney stories look good. Unfortunately, he was also a double agent for Cuban intelligence(codename Octavio) who©ˆd been operating undercover successfully since 1960. Should have been a helluva story, but for all the attention he got, Sr. Baguer could have saved his breath. Not only are North American media not interested in the truth about Cuba; when we find it, we kill it.

[Cessna Invesco Palin]

32. File not found.

File Not Found

Sorry, but the page you've requested can't be found. Try finding your way using our navigation bar (at left). If you think you've come to this page in error, please contact our web guy here.

Must have been deleted by sinister pro-Bush forces.

[Judi Lynn]

43. It's a legitimate article. It was carried by other sources:

http://www.depauw.edu/library/collectiondev/boswellbib.asp

This one would require a subscription:

http://www.highbeam.com/doc/1G1:105850446/Covering+and+not+covering+Cuba%7eR%7e+(On+the+Edge).html

Apparently you've never run into articles which are not available perpetually on the internet.

[rinsd]

38. Everyone who dissents is on the US payroll?

Do you have proof the Ladies in White receive any US funding?

[manic expression]

46. No

but they were protesting the arrests of individuals who were on the US payroll. Dissent is very much legal in Cuba:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/4569981.stm

The Ladies in White were not punished for receiving US funding. They were barred from leaving the country because they did not file the paperwork in time when they had enough time to do so.

[rinsd]

61. "Dissent is very much legal in Cuba"

Much like free speech, that is highly debatable.

Doing 20 years for circulating a petition is beyond ridiculous.

Basically it seems a few DUers on this thread agree w/ McCarthy. After all CPUSA took money from the Soviet Union.

Yes yes I know about defense of the revolution and all that jazz.

[manic expression]

63. I would love a source

I, on the other hand, have one:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/4569981.stm

I agree with a country arresting agents paid and supported by aggressive nations.

Your comparison to McCarthy is beyond ridiculous. He went after Hollywood, the State Department, the Armed Forces and other organizations that had nothing to do with the USSR. Yes, the CPUSA took money, but that is completely different to Cuba, as those "dissidents" were actively trying to destabalize the country to make it "right" for US exploitation once again.

[rinsd]

67. From your own source....

"Cuban authorities did not intervene but had earlier expelled several European politicians who planned to attend."

"Czech Senator Karel Schwarzenberg and German MP Arnold Vaatz had been seized by police and driven to Havana airport on Thursday.

The European Commission described the expulsions as unacceptable.

Two Polish MEPs were refused entry to Cuba earlier in the week.

And at least two journalists, from Poland and Italy, were detained by the Cuban authorities ahead of the meeting. "

Very free, indeed.

"Yes, the CPUSA took money, but that is completely different to Cuba, as those "dissidents" were actively trying to destabalize the country to make it "right" for US exploitation once again."

In other words, it is acceptable to accept money from a hostile foriegn power to change a government from capitalist to communist but the other way around deserves prison? Should we have jailed all members of the CPUSA? Or at least the leadership? Should communist be refered to as traitors to this country?

And with McCarthy I was refering to the taint that he spread maliciously about people an communism, demanding names, making insinuations etc. You and Mika have repeatedly called the women who simple don white and silently march in this org who are the wives of jailed dissidents "traitors".



Walks like a duck......

[manic expression]

70. Yes

The Cuban authorities would rather not have such involvement from foreign governments, considering what they have wrought upon the island. The actual Cuban dissidents were left to do as they wished.

OK, let's list the differences between the USSR-US relationship and the US-Cuba relationship...

USSR, superpower
US, superpower

US, superpower
Cuba, third-world country

USSR, did not attempt invasion
US, did not attempt invasion

US, did attempt invasion, along with multiple covert operations and subversive activities
Cuba, the victim of an invasion attempt, along with etc....

USSR, many allies
US, many allies

US, many allies
Cuba, few allies

USSR, no crippling trading restrictions
US, " "

US, " "
Cuba, MANY crippling trading restrictions

Does that make sense, or shall I continue?

Talks like an imperialist....

[rinsd]

72. Your position is fully presented.....

...you support authoritarian measures in support of the revolution.

Which is exactly why I am not a fellow traveler.

[manic expression]

73. Nice straw man

Allowing Cubans to demonstrate freely is hardly authoritarian. Restricting foreign access is not really an authoritarian measure.

Know that you travel with true authoritarians.

on edit: see my other post about foreign access. The international press has a lot of access to Cuba.

And thanks for dropping that ridiculous comparison to McCarthyism.

[rinsd]

78. "Know that you travel with true authoritarians."

Sorry, I'm not the one who claims allowing(that's right allowing) a meeting of a 100 dissidents but restricitng journalists and foreigners is all goodie gumdrops.

Authoritarianism should be fought at every turn, whether left or right.

Some people believe in that, others do not.

[manic expression]

80. You, however

are the one ignoring the facts. There were 100 people there only because 100 people showed up. This is due to the fact that the Cuban people largely disagree with and even despise these "dissidents". They have no support, besides the US government, of course.

Authoritarianism should be fought, and imperialist ambitions MUST be stopped. Cuba is not the perpetrator of either ills.

[Mika]

92. The EU politicians were expelled because they entered using a tourist visa

.. and did not declare that they were in Cuba as agents/representatives of their state & organizations on business.

They lied to Cuban customs/immigration officers when they entered Cuba and passed through Cuban customs/immigration.

The US also requires that agents entering the US on business declare that they are doing so. If one lies to US customs/immigration officers upon entry then one is subject to expulsion also.


Amazing that DUers support liars and scofflaws who cry when they get caught with their fingers in the cookie jar. Especially those who entered Cuba illegally working in support of efforts to overthrow a national government. Working in league with groups that have connections to US based Miamicubano terrorist organizations.

[Che_Nuevara]

93. How much do you know about the history of the IRA?

"If a "dissident" in the UK was being funded by the IRA, how long do you think they would last?"

The answer is, quite a long time. The IRA used to conduct open, official fundraising campaigns in the UK and in America (pre 9/11). A member of the IRA sits in British Parliament.


By the way, IRA/UK is not at all comparable to US/Cuba.

[manic expression]

118. One small point

If it was funding that had to do with toppling the UK government, as was the case in Cuba.

That was my fault, but I think you got my point.

[hughee99]

101. "Dissent is very much legal in Cuba"...

provided your not someone who "threatens, libels or slanders, defames, affronts (injuria) or in any other way insults (ultraje) or offends, with the spoken word or in writing, the dignity or decorum of an authority, public functionary, or his agents or auxiliaries."

Then there's the provision for Defamation of Institutions, Mass Organizations, Heroes, and Martyrs
"The Criminal Code mandates a three-month to one-year sentence for anyone who "publicly defames, denigrates, or scorns the Republic's institutions, the political, mass, or social organizations of the country, or the heroes or martyrs of the nation."86 This sweeping provision potentially outlaws mere expressions of dissatisfaction or disagreement with government policies or practices, clearly violating free expression. The protection from insult of lifeless entities, and state-controlled institutions and organizations in particular, appears designed solely to preserve the current government's power."

Neither law seems to mention anything about this dissent being okay provided it's not US funded, but I'll admit I haven't poured through Cuba's legal code to see the exact text.

Of course, I got this from the RW funded, US propagandists at Human Rights Watch, so I'm not sure how accurate it really is.

http://www.hrw.org/reports/1999/cuba/Cuba996-03.htm

[manic expression]

120. First,

I would like to know an instance where this has ever been evoked for an arrest. The example given in the HRW article is Hector Palacios Ruiz. The only other sources I can find are very RW sources, so another source would be helpful.

I think that the Cuban Constitution itself may be a good place to start:

http://members.allstream.net/~dchris/CubaFAQConstitution.html

"ARTICLE 26. Anybody who suffers damages unjustly caused by a state official or employee while in the performance of his public functions has the right to claim and obtain the corresponding indemnification as prescribed by law."

-snip-

"ARTICLE 53. Citizens have freedom of speech and of the press in keeping with the objectives of socialist society. Material conditions for the exercise of that right are provided by the fact that the press, radio, television, cinema, and other mass media are state or social property and can never be private property. This assures their use at exclusive service of the working people and in the interests of society.

The law regulated the exercise of those freedoms.

ARTICLE 54. The rights to assembly, demonstration and association are exercised by workers, both manual and intellectual, peasants, women, students and other sectors of the working people, and they have the necessary means for this. The social and mass organizations have all the facilities they need to carry out those activities in which the members have full freedom of speech and opinion based on the unlimited right of initiative and criticism.

ARTICLE 55. The state, which recognizes, respects and guarantees freedom of conscience and of religion, also recognizes, respects and guarantees every citizen’s freedom to change religious beliefs or to not have any, and to profess, within the framework of respect for the law, the religious belief of his preference.

The law regulates the state’s relations with religious institutions."

I cannot find anything about public defamation, period. Maybe you can.


I think this is a somewhat good viewpoint:

http://www.socialistviewpoint.org/feb_03/feb_03_19.html

"The current Cuban constitution, written in 1976, has many of the same provisions as the U.S. Constitution, though couched in terms of a socialistic system.

It guarantees all Cubans the right to free education, from grade school through professional school, the right to own a limited amount of property, and the right to free medical and dental care.

As a result, Cuba’s education and health care are among the best in the Western Hemisphere, according to the World Health Organization. For instance, Cuba has a 96 percent literacy rate and a significantly lower infant mortality rate than the United States.

Another very interesting and significant element of Cuba’s constitution is that it specifically prohibits discrimination based on gender. (Cuban women make up 65 percent of the legal and other professions in Cuba.)

In contrast, the U.S. Constitution still lacks this provision as the Equal Rights Amendment failed ratification in the late 1970s, falling three states short.

The Cuban constitution also has a provision for freedom of speech. It is, again, couched in the language of their unique view of the Cuban socialist state: “Citizens have freedom of speech and of the press in keeping with the objectives of socialist society ….”"

A few things. Cubans can easily listen to US news sources from a simple radio, so that should tell you something about tolerance for ideas and the freedom of the press there.

Really, it seems like dissent is VERY much legal in Cuba. To address specific cases, the only punitive actions against dissidents that I know of is when it is tied to support from the US, a charge that is very much a valid one in most of the cases. If you could find other cases that are explained by news sources (sorry, but AI or HRW won't help in this area), that would be a good starting point.

There is a big thing that one must keep in mind: There is A TON of misinformation about Cuba out there. You have to get to the truth about things, and that may be difficult.

[hughee99]

124. I was thinking of a an article I had read some time ago

"In addition to Gonzalez Leiva, the defendants included seven political activists (Lázaro Iglesias Estrada, Enrique García Morejón, Antonio Marcelino García Morejón, Delio Laureano Requejo Rodríguez, Virgilio Mantilla Arango, Odalmis Hernández Márquez, and Ana Peláez García) and an independent journalist (Carlos Brizuela Yera)."

This was the specific example I was thinking of. The article didn't mention anything about them being fundeded by the US. (see link for full doc)

http://hrw.org/english/docs/2004/04/27/cuba8500.htm

I also found these in an article that begins "The heavy sentences imposed against non-violent Cuban dissidents are unjustified and draconian, Human Rights Watch said today. Defendants received sentences ranging from twelve to twenty-five years of imprisonment."

And goes on to list some of the sentences that were handed out.

Marta Beatriz Roque, an independent economist, received a twenty-year sentence. Roque had previously spent nearly three years in prison for publishing an analytic paper calling for political reforms.

Nelson Molinet Espino and Nelson Alberto Aguiar, two dissidents who were tried together with Beatriz Roque, received twelve-year sentences.

Raul Rivero, a noted poet, writer and independent journalist, received a twenty-year sentence. Other sentenced journalists include Ricardo González Alfonso, who worked as a correspondent for Reporters Sans Frontières, and who received a twenty-year sentence. Oscar Espinosa Chepe, an economist, and Hector Maseda Gutierrez, a journalist, also received twenty-year sentences.

Opposition leader Hector Palacios, for whom prosecutors had originally recommended a life sentence, was sentenced to twenty-five years of imprisonment for treason and subversion. Palacios is one of the leaders of the Varela Project, a high-profile reformist effort.

Opposition activist Oscar Alfonso Valdes reportedly received an eighteen-year sentence.

Marcelo Lopez and Marcelo Cano, human rights activists, received eighteen and fifteen year sentences, respectively.

http://hrw.org/english/docs/2003/04/07/cuba5520.htm

[manic expression]

125. OK

HRW never included any info about US backing, even when it is proven that there is such a link.

(Excuse me if this sounds harsh, but I think HRW and AI just like to hear the sound of their own voices sometimes. They hear about "dissident arrested" and proclaim injustice without looking at the facts when it comes to Cuba)

Seriously, it wouldn't make any sense for the Cuban government to detain these people if they were simply just calling for acceptable reforms (which is how it is being portrayed). It is very much agreeable that Cuba should be on the watch for US intervention, as it has been the basis of the two countries' relationship since the revolution.

You should note that Oswoldo Paya, a dissident who has criticized other dissidents for having ties to the US, has not been subject to the same actions. Perhaps this is because he has little to no backing from the US, and so the Cuban government doesn't have a significant problem with him. Paya is also one of the leaders of the Varela Project, so if the Cuban government was actually after the movement and not agents on the US' payroll, wouldn't they go after him as well?

I can find one instance where Paya was arrested. He was released a day later. Hardly political repression.

[hughee99]

126. I understand what your saying, and not having been to Cuba

I can't say with certainty one way or the other what is true and what is propaganda. It just seems like when groups like HRW, AI, the UN, EU, etc... all seem to think that there are issues with this, perhaps there is some element of truth. Since you've dismissed, to one degree or another, all of these sources, I don't see any point in looking up any doing any more research on the net for this.

[manic expression]

134. Well,

I've talked to people that have gone to Cuba, and they have said Cubans have no fears on speaking their minds (don't ask me their names, because I don't know them personally).

The thing is that research on the net will bring you RW sources and these human rights groups. Neutral sources write articles that are not nearly as much of a condemnation. Also, it has been recognized by not only any neutral source but also by other Cuban dissidents that many dissidents do in fact recieve support from the US (those dissidents are not subject to such actions). There is some element of truth in that, no?

I REALLY appreciate how you've been arguing your points: without the rhetoric that gets so tiring. However, HRW and AI have been proven to cry violations in Cuba when the arrests were very justified and warranted. That is enough to make me skeptical of them on this subject.

Thank you for understanding my position.

[Name removed]

8. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[manic expression]

7. Very good point n/t

[brentspeak]

11. Gee, that must be it

The women, operating under secret orders from the US ambassador, and probably surgically-altered to appear as Cuban women (when they're really just American CIA agents), hatched this entire plot, and timed it right down to best possible minute and second to generate maximum counterrevolutionary effect.

You figured it all out!

:eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy:

[NorthELiberal]

15. "traitorous women" ?

Who are you, Castro's spokeperson?

[manic expression]

47. Perhaps you should look at the facts

because those "dissidents" who were arrested were engaging in very "traitorous" activity. They accepted funds from the US, which has been trying to topple Cuba's government for the past (looks at watch) 40 years or so.

There are many posts on this thread that deal with this in a more extensive manner.

[rinsd]

62. It's a proud day when someone with a Che avatar agrees w/McCarthy

[manic expression]

65. What?

I agree with trying individuals who take money from aggressive nations. Those "dissidents" are paid employees of a country that has been trying to destabalize that country for about, oh, 40 or so years. That is not dissent. It is subversive, and what's worse, working for Uncle Sam's base aims of exploitation and injustice.

Also, see my other response.

[NorthELiberal]

85. Facts? As if facts matter to Castro supporters..........

I learned a long time ago from Castro supporters, that no matter what facts you present to them about the human rights situation in cuba, it will not matter........ even if it is coming from people who have some sympathy for Socialists...... This other thread on DU is a prime example:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=102x1839163#1839181

Links from Humna Rights Watch, Amnesty International, Slate, BBC, they all do not matter to Castro supporters. Any Cuban that risked their life to come to America is simply labeled a rich Batista supporter even if they came here with only the shirt on their back.

[Mika]

90. Castro supporters? LOL & ridiculous.

Thanks for the link to that older thread.

Your post is a prime example of how actual info posted by those who dare to post and share their actual experiences that do not conform with the hard line anti Cuba/Castrophobes is spun as posts by "Castro supporters".

Despite your complete misrepresentation of it and some posters on it, there's some great info there.

[NorthELiberal]

102. You don't like being described as a castro supporter?

But you call those women traitorous and defend Castro's regime ever chance you get..... and then you accuse other people of misrepresentation, seems like you want it to have it both ways........... You criticize the women for their protest yet you realize being a castro defender comes with a lot of baggage so you do not want to be labeled a supporter (of Castro). You are coming very close to the definition of a hypocrite (if not something worse).

[manic expression]

107. It's misleading

and mistaken. Castro does not equal Cuba. The Cuban Government and their policies do not equal Castro. Get that through your head.

We are criticizing women for protesting on behalf of Uncle Sam's disgusting imperialist aims. The people they are lobbying for accepted funds from the US, an act that is illegal and wrong. Because these women are working for that, they deserve strong criticism for their actions.

Hypocrisy? How so, exactly? I see no contrary points. You ARE misrepresenting the facts, while we are calling you on it and actually presenting the facts. I fail to see any hypocrisy there.

(on edit: added 3rd paragraph and grammatical correction)

[NorthELiberal]

112. I am the one being misleading?

You want me to point out hypocrisy and contrary points?

Let's start with the most recent one.

"The Cuban Government and their policies do not equal Castro."

Castro has ruled Cuba for 45 years........... you are saying that's by choice of the Cuban people?

AHAHAHAHAHAHA.............. You think that if Castro, his brother and his immediate cronies were gone, Cuba would be the same place?

[Mika]

113. Yes. Your most recent misrepresentation..

"Castro has ruled Cuba for 45 years..."


Do you really think that the Cuban people rose up to throw out the blood-soaked Batista dictatorship (that was US government backed and US organized crime backed) only to sit back and allow another dictator to 'rule them'? That is the ultimate put down of the Cuban people because, historically, Cubans have readily overthrown any government or dictatorship that they wanted to.

Manic e is correct. Castro does not equal the Cuban government. You seem to be ignorant of the fact that Cuba has elected municipal, provincial and national assemblies. Their method of governance is democratic parliamentary.

Just to educate you a little bit on Cuban history, Mr castro hasn't 'ruled the Cuban people' ever, let alone for 45 years..

http://www.bartleby.com/65/do/Dorticos.html

Dorticós Torrado, Osvaldo

1919–83, president of Cuba (1959–76). A prosperous lawyer, he participated in Fidel Castro’s revolutionary movement and was imprisoned (1958). He escaped and fled to Mexico, returning to Cuba after Castro’s triumph (1959). As minister of laws (1959) he helped to formulate Cuban policies. He was appointed president in 1959. Intelligent and competent, he wielded considerable influence. In 1976 the Cuban government was reorganized, and Castro assumed the title of president; Dorticós was named a member of the council of state.

You know jack shit about Cuba and its government.




Here's an example of what the Cuban people in concert with their government have been able to do..

Before the 1959 revolution

75% of rural dwellings were huts made from palm trees.

More than 50% had no toilets of any kind.

85% had no inside running water.

91% had no electricity.

There was only 1 doctor per 2,000 people in rural areas.

More than one-third of the rural population had intestinal parasites.

Only 4% of Cuban peasants ate meat regularly; only 1% ate fish, less than 2% eggs, 3% bread, 11% milk; none ate green vegetables.

The average annual income among peasants was $91 (1956), less than 1/3 of the national income per person.

45% of the rural population was illiterate; 44% had never attended a school.

25% of the labor force was chronically unemployed.

1 million people were illiterate ( in a population of about 5.5 million).

27% of urban children, not to speak of 61% of rural children, were not attending school.

Racial discrimination was widespread.

The public school system had deteriorated badly.

Corruption was endemic; anyone could be bought, from a Supreme Court judge to a cop.

Police brutality and torture were common.

___



After the 1959 revolution

“It is in some sense almost an anti-model,” according to Eric Swanson, the programme manager for the Bank’s Development Data Group, which compiled the WDI, a tome of almost 400 pages covering scores of economic, social, and environmental indicators.

Indeed, Cuba is living proof in many ways that the Bank’s dictum that economic growth is a pre-condition for improving the lives of the poor is over-stated, if not, downright wrong.

-

It has reduced its infant mortality rate from 11 per 1,000 births in 1990 to seven in 1999, which places it firmly in the ranks of the western industrialised nations. It now stands at six, according to Jo Ritzen, the Bank’s Vice President for Development Policy, who visited Cuba privately several months ago to see for himself.

By comparison, the infant mortality rate for Argentina stood at 18 in 1999;

Chile’s was down to ten; and Costa Rica, at 12. For the entire Latin American and Caribbean region as a whole, the average was 30 in 1999.

Similarly, the mortality rate for children under the age of five in Cuba has fallen from 13 to eight per thousand over the decade. That figure is 50% lower than the rate in Chile, the Latin American country closest to Cuba’s achievement. For the region as a whole, the average was 38 in 1999.

“Six for every 1,000 in infant mortality - the same level as Spain - is just unbelievable,” according to Ritzen, a former education minister in the Netherlands. “You observe it, and so you see that Cuba has done exceedingly well in the human development area.”

Indeed, in Ritzen’s own field, the figures tell much the same story. Net primary enrolment for both girls and boys reached 100% in 1997, up from 92% in 1990. That was as high as most developed nations - higher even than the US rate and well above 80-90% rates achieved by the most advanced Latin American countries.

“Even in education performance, Cuba’s is very much in tune with the developed world, and much higher than schools in, say, Argentina, Brazil, or Chile.”

It is no wonder, in some ways. Public spending on education in Cuba amounts to about 6.7% of gross national income, twice the proportion in other Latin American and Caribbean countries and even Singapore.

There were 12 primary school pupils for every Cuban teacher in 1997, a ratio that ranked with Sweden, rather than any other developing country. The Latin American and East Asian average was twice as high at 25 to one.

The average youth (age 15-24) illiteracy rate in Latin America and the Caribbean stands at 7%. In Cuba, the rate is zero. In Latin America, where the average is 7%, only Uruguay approaches that achievement, with one percent youth illiteracy.

“Cuba managed to reduce illiteracy from 40% to zero within ten years,” said Ritzen. “If Cuba shows that it is possible, it shifts the burden of proof to those who say it’s not possible.”

Similarly, Cuba devoted 9.1% of its gross domestic product (GDP) during the 1990s to health care, roughly equivalent to Canada’s rate. Its ratio of 5.3 doctors per 1,000 people was the highest in the world.

The question that these statistics pose, of course, is whether the Cuban experience can be replicated. The answer given here is probably not.

“What does it, is the incredible dedication,” according to Wayne Smith, who was head of the US Interests Section in Havana in the late 1970s and early 1980s and has travelled to the island many times since.

No one can say with any credibility that universal education and universal health care is forced on Cubans. Castro didn't give it to them. They worked hard to create the infrastructure and systems that they felt were essential for any progressive system.

Cubans wanted universal health care for all Cubans, and they have it. They pushed for government that represented their ideals, and organized and formed infrastructure that enabled Cubans to create a fair and complete h-c system. Cubans wanted universal education for all Cubans, and they have it. They pushed for government that represented their ideals, organized and formed infrastructure that enabled Cubans to create a complete and world class ed system, and they have it. Cubans want to assist the world's poor with doctors and educators, instead of gun ship diplomacy.. and that is what they have done WITH their government, not at odds with their government.

Can Americans make this claim about their own country? I'm afraid not.


Cubans want normalization between the US and Cuba, and they have thrown their doors open to us, but, it is our US government that prevents what the majority of Americans want their government to do - normalize relations. Worse yet, the US government forbids and has criminalized travel to Cuba by Americans - something that Cuba hasn't done.



Viva Cuba!

[Judi Lynn]

131. Mika, maybe you've seen the Martí quote at the bottom of this snippet....

A Review of United States Policy Toward Cuba

by David Mercile

(snip)
....The United States post-Cold War efforts to rewrite and reverse history are now focused most intensely on Cuba. Cuba is the world's leading symbol of resistance to U.S. imperial domination. The U.S. has become obsessed with intimidating the Cuban people into submission. The goal of the US blockade is to starve the Cuban people into altering their sympathies and thoughts. While proclaiming to the world that Cuba must accept the mandates of the United States or face contrived hardship, the US government is also notifying all poor and developing nations that they cannot choose their own path. This arrogant and nationalistic attitude prevents respect among imperialist powers for what the UN charter describes as "the principle of equal rights and self-determinations of peoples."

Cuba has not abandoned its struggle to chart its own future in defiance of the US attempts to reverse history. "A revolution is not a bed of roses ... a revolution is a struggle to the death between the future and the past," Cuban President Fidel Castro said long ago. United States policy fails to reflect upon the significance of the Cuban Revolution, its fundamental ideals, and how relevant the achievement of its purposes remain today. There are several reasons for the failure of US policy. First, most of the Cuban people realize the United States does not genuinely care about their welfare. Second, Cubans recognize that they will forfeit the system of social services that has emerged as the envy of the Third World and one of the most commendable products of the Revolution. Third, there is great fear of the extreme rightist Cuban-Americans who could assume power if they returned to Cuba. No one in Cuba is foolish enough to think that such a government would be even remotely democratic or tolerant of many of the views prevalent in Cuba today. Fourth, possibly the most neglected reason for the failure of US policy, most Cubans approve of the accomplishments of their Revolutionary government, and feel connected to these gains. While accepting neocolonial status might result in new wealth flowing to Cuba, most Cubans are sagacious enough to know they will not be sharing in it.

To the majority of Cubans, integration into the imperialist network would be a political disaster. In 1994, one of the poorer years of the Revolution, 69 percent of Cubans described themselves in an independent US poll as either Revolutionaries, Socialists, or Communists. The United States would never allow a candidate who fit any of those descriptions to come to power in an election. The ultra-rightist Cubans in the United States who claim to desire to bring democracy to Cuba are completely incapable of winning an election there. Their yearning for wealth and power presents the very real danger that Cuba could become another Chile.

Abandoning Cuba's status as a fully sovereign nation would also have a detrimental effect on the social services provided to the people. The report from the American Association for World Health gives extensive evidence pertaining to Cuba's excellent health care system. What other Third World nation can boast of universal health care and an educational system that offers free university education? According to 1997 statistics provided by UNESCO, Cuba's student-teacher ratio was considerably lower than those of the United States, Canada, and the rest of Latin America. As José Martí said, "An educated people will always be strong and free."
(snip/...)

http://www.impactpress.com/articles/febmar99/cuba2399.html

[Mika]

132. Thanks Judi Lynn. That's a very good article.

It pretty much sums up what the defenders of Cuban sovereignty have been saying on this thread. Cubans, together with their government, have worked long and hard to develop a fair system that serves all, and serves them well. Their social infrastructure stats prove that out.

Why would Cubans not be on guard against US attempts to overthrow and undermine their hard won systems? Does anyone really believe that the Cuban people want to be 'Iraqi-ized' by the US. The US's Cuba transition program calls for a total privatization of all Cuban government services and infrastructure, just like 'Bremmers 100 orders' did to Iraq. I don't blame Cubans for wanting to defend themselves - and that means putting the lid on those who aid and abet the declared enemy of Cuba (the US gov and Miamicubano hard line exile terra groups) in order to protect the legitimate array of domestic political movements, including those who work to change the Cuban government from within their political framework and laws.

[NorthELiberal]

135. "You seem to be ignorant of the fact that Cuba................

........ has elected municipal, provincial and national assemblies. Their method of governance is democratic parliamentary"

"You know jack shit about Cuba and its government."


You don't know "jack sh*t" (to use your term) about proving a point to reasonable people.....
If you think single party rule........ the Communist Party of Cuba in this case...... is what constitutes a real democracy.


It doesn't matter what links or proof people show you to the contrary about the situation in Cuba, (even if the evidence is coming from the bulk of the 1.3 million Cuban Americans who are anti-castro and have millions of relatives in Cuba) you will say they are paid by Americans, they are rich batista supporters, too right wing in general or Cuban traitors........... the same way you did in the older thread.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=102x1839163#1839181

You completely ignored links to HRW, Amnesty International, A Democratic Socialist Paul Berman, and the BBC.


CUBA'S REPRESSIVE MACHINERY

Human Rights Forty Years After the Revolution

http://www.hrw.org/reports/1999/cuba /

http://hrw.org/english/docs/2005/03/10/cuba10306.htm

-----

http://slate.msn.com/id/2107100


http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/3664527.stm


http://web.amnesty.org/library/index/engamr250022002


As for,

"Do you really think that the Cuban people rose up to throw out the blood-soaked Batista dictatorship (that was US government backed and US organized crime backed) only to sit back and allow another dictator to 'rule them'?"


The Cuban people were duped and didn't realize the new form of tyranny they had on their hands........... Even many Americans, New York Times included were fooled by Castro who swore he wasn't a Communist.


"Cubans want normalization between the US and Cuba, and they have thrown their doors open to us"

So do I and most Americans who follow the issue. I don't want the Cubans to suffer under an embargo, I would prefer it be lifted....... the sooner Cubans are exposed to more Americans...... the quicker they will overthrow Castro and his Communist party stooges.

Defenders, like you, of the current regime in Cuba are one of the obstacles to normalization not a part of the solution.

[Mika]

136. Simply ridiculous

Posted by NorthELiberal-->"The Cuban people were duped and didn't realize the new form of tyranny they had on their hands.."

For 46 years?

You really don't know much about the Cuban people nor Cuban history. They just simply wouldn't put up with a brutal dictator for 46 years. To believe so reveals how little you think of the Cuban people who live in Cuba.


I guess that you haven't considered that the hard line ex Cubans who live in Miami have ulterior motives that are multi fold: 1) the Batistano generation and their offspring seek to wrest back control of Cuba, 2) many seek to maintain the perks offered to Cuban immigrants only by the US's Cuban Adjustment Act, 3) being anti Castro is big business in S Florida - no bogeyman Castro = no platform.

Cubans are granted special immigration perks that no other immigrant group is offered.

Immigrants come to the US from all over the world - from democratic countries. They come here for opportunities to earn more money than they could back at home. They come to work so that they can send a little of their earnings back to their relatives. It has little to do with 'despotic' regimes, it has more to do with earning power.

Cuba is a special case though, in that it is the US's Helms-Burton law (and a myriad of other sanctions) that are intended to cripple the Cuban economy. This is the stated goal of the US government, as evidenced by the Bush* admin's latest 'crackdown' on family remittances to Cuba.

For Cuban migrants - including illegal immigrants who are smuggled in or have failed a US background check for a legal visa - the US's Cuban Adjustment Act instantly allows any and all Cuban migrants who touch US shore (no matter how) instant entry, instant work visa, instant green card status, instant social security, instant access to welfare, instant access to section 8 assisted housing (with a $41,000 income exemption).

We force economic deprivation on Cubans, then open our doors to any and all Cubans illegal or not, and then offer them a plethora of immigration perks and housing perks not even available to native born Americans and legal immigrants, some of whom wait many years to get into the USA legally..

But yet more immigrants come from Mexico and the Latin Americas than do Cubans, and they have no such "Adjustment Act" like Cubans do. But they still pour in.

Plus, Cuban immigrants can hop on a plane from Miami to Havana and travel right back to the Cuba that they "escaped" from for family trips and vacations - by the hundred of thousands annually.

Recognizing the immorality of forced starvation and forced economic deprivation is a good reason to drop the US embargo on Cuba and the US travel sanctions placed on US citizens and residents. Then the Cuban economy would be able to expand even faster, thereby increasing the average wage in Cuba. It would make products, goods, and services even more accessible to both Cubans and Americans. It would reduce the economic based immigration flow from Cuba. And it would restore our own constitutional right to travel unfettered to see Cuba for ourselves.


On to your other "point"..


Posted by NorthELiberal-->"Defenders, like you, of the current regime in Cuba are one of the obstacles to normalization not a part of the solution."


That's quite an accusation. Foolish too, imo. You seem to be mistaking my support for Cuba's sovereignty and system of democracy for support for Castro. Not all democratic processes are identical, Cubans can choose their own. They really don't want the US's "help" in this regard.


Elections are not a "show". The communist party only holds about 15% of the seats in the National Assembly (the Cuban Parliament).

Here are some of the major parties in Cuba. The union parties hold the majority of seats in the Assembly.

http://www.gksoft.com/govt/en/cu.html

* Partido Comunista de Cuba (PCC) {Communist Party of Cuba}
* Partido Demócrata Cristiano de Cuba (PDC) {Christian Democratic Party of Cuba} - Oswaldo Paya's Catholic party
* Partido Solidaridad Democrática (PSD) {Democratic Solidarity Party}
* Partido Social Revolucionario Democrático Cubano {Cuban Social Revolutionary Democratic Party}
* Coordinadora Social Demócrata de Cuba (CSDC) {Social Democratic Coordination of Cuba}
* Unión Liberal Cubana {Cuban Liberal Union}

Plenty of info on this long thread,
http://www.democraticunderground.com/cgi-bin/duforum/duboard.cgi?az=show_thread&om=6300&forum=DCForumID70


http://www.poptel.org.uk/cuba-solidarity/democracy.htm

This system in Cuba is based upon universal adult suffrage for all those aged 16 and over. Nobody is excluded from voting, except convicted criminals or those who have left the country. Voter turnouts have usually been in the region of 95% of those eligible .

There are direct elections to municipal, provincial and national assemblies, the latter represent Cuba's parliament.

Electoral candidates are not chosen by small committees of political parties. No political party, including the Communist Party, is permitted to nominate or campaign for any given candidates.

--

Representative Fidel Castro was elected to the National Assembly as a representative of District #7 Santiago de Cuba.
He is one of the elected 607 representatives in the Cuban National Assembly. It is from that body that the head of state is nominated and then elected. Raul Castro, Carlos Large, and Ricardo Alarcon and others were among the nominated last year. President Castro has been elected to that position since 1976.

http://www.bartleby.com/65/do/Dorticos.html

Dorticós Torrado, Osvaldo

1919–83, president of Cuba (1959–76). A prosperous lawyer, he participated in Fidel Castro’s revolutionary movement and was imprisoned (1958). He escaped and fled to Mexico, returning to Cuba after Castro’s triumph (1959). As minister of laws (1959) he helped to formulate Cuban policies. He was appointed president in 1959. Intelligent and competent, he wielded considerable influence. In 1976 the Cuban government was reorganized, and Castro assumed the title of president; Dorticós was named a member of the council of state.

The Cuban government was reorganized (approved by popular vote) into a variant parliamentary system in 1976.

You can read a short version of the Cuban system here,
http://members.allstream.net/~dchris/CubaFAQDemocracy.html

Or a long and detailed version here,
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0968508405/qid=1053879619/sr=1-2/ref=sr_1_2/102-8821757-1670550?v=glance&s=books



Just how is my supporting the lifting of the US sanctions on Cuba and the US travel ban on Americans any different than yours? Just how is my support for the same thing as you an obstacle to normalization?

What makes your opinion so especiallly positive and mine so detrimental (since they're the same)?


Your accusation is hyperbole and simply illogical.

[NorthELiberal]

144. I don't know why I should bother anymore,..........

... given everything you have ignored up until now... You seem more interested in spreading Castro propaganda than real information.

---------
"You really don't know much about the Cuban people nor Cuban history. They just simply wouldn't put up with a brutal dictator for 46 years. To believe so reveals how little you think of the Cuban people who live in Cuba."

"That's quite an accusation. Foolish too, imo. You seem to be mistaking my support for Cuba's sovereignty and system of democracy for support for Castro. Not all democratic processes are identical, Cubans can choose their own. They really don't want the US's "help" in this regard."


"Elections are not a "show". The communist party only holds about 15% of the seats in the National Assembly (the Cuban Parliament)."

----------
Looks like you don't have an understanding of how dictatorships work.

I really don't like to get into these cut and paste battles with people who think if they just post a ton of one sided links they will overwhelm the reader into their position the way you seem to be doing (as if no one is capable of critical thought)......... but since every Cuban-American is a traitor, paid by Americans, or a Batista supporter according to you... and links from Cuban organizations (people who know the real situation in Cuba) are not any good (according to you) .... How about something from the BBC....... A source many DUers would consider credible, if not always perfect.


"While there's no official personality cult, everyone knows exactly who's boss.
Cuban politics works almost like the court of a monarch. Rival factions form around a host of issues. Within the court, stars rise and stars fall. But the one pulling all the strings is Mr Castro.

He has never allowed opposition. The state has a spectacular system of internal control. It's far more subtle than the brutal military regimes I saw in Latin America in the 1980s. But it's more powerful, controlling so many aspects of daily life.

People become dependent on the state. Cubans complain constantly about everything. But it is never worth their while to take that to active opposition."


"The state has an information network reaching down to every street - and, as I discovered, it is certainly monitoring the international press."


For the rest of the article:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/programmes/from_our_own_correspondent/983786.stm

I can post many more...... but I picked this one because it is slightly critical of the U.S. as well, the BBC often is........Always have to have the U.S. as a boogeyman to get someone to read something.


"Just how is my supporting the lifting of the US sanctions on Cuba and the US travel ban on Americans any different than yours? Just how is my support for the same thing as you an obstacle to normalization?"

Because I want the the sanctions lifted and a real Democracy in Cuba........ which means Castro and his cronies have to go........ because they are the number one obstacle to real Democracy in Cuba.... Simple isn't it? All they have to do is resign and call it quits....... 46 years of the same thugs in power is enough.

[Mika]

155. Please post a link where I said "every Cuban-American is a traitor..

.., paid by Americans, or a Batista supporter according to you"


Just one will do. You won't be able to because I have never said any such thing.
You are working in black or white - I'm not.



I have been to Cuba many times (legally). Including during an entire election season. I attended open nomination sessions. I attended platform creation sessions. I witnessed Cubans selecting candidates openly, not selected in back room secrecy by party honchos.

You can babble on all you want about Castro this and Castro that, but I'm just saying that I saw none of that. The Cuban people are some of the most politically involved and activist people that I have ever met. There are plenty of domestic 'opposition' parties, they run for assembly seats, and if their platform is popular then they get votes in the open Cuban elections (paper ballots - hand counted many times, open to the public). Some even hold seats in the municipal, provincial and national assemblies. There are biannual 'accountability sessions' that are well attended by the public where a recall vote can be undertaken. If 50% +1 or more reject the representative then a new election is mandated within 6 weeks. In that case the process is started over.


But, you know this. Right? Oh.. that's right, you don't know this. You've not been there or seen it.

-


Cubans do 'monitor' the international press.. its on their news stands and local stores and libraries. For some reason you seem to think that Cubans are out of touch - they're not. They read many international papers - even the Miami Herald, they read many independent Cuban publications as well as the state media, they listen to SW radio, they listen to and even watch TV broadcasts from S Fla and many Caribbean broadcasts.


But, you know this. Right? Oh.. that's right, you don't know this. You've not been there or seen it.


Its most Americans who are out of touch with the real Cuba because they are the ones who are travel banned from seeing Cuba - by the dictate of the US government. The ban is working, because most Americans know nothing about current Cuba so all they can discuss is agenda based MSM cold war era swill about Castro this and Castro that.


-


"Because I want the the sanctions lifted and a real Democracy in Cuba........ which means Castro and his cronies have to go"


Sez who? You? The US gov should dictate the conditions for "democracy" in Cuba?

The Cuban people rejected US dictate and control over Cuba in the 1959 revolution. They still say 'no thank you'. Cubans are quite able to handle their own affairs - including rejecting their leadership, if they want to, and they do so in elections.



"46 years of the same thugs in power is enough."


This illustrates just how little you know about the changes that have been ongoing in Cuba since their switch to a parliamentary system in 1976.

Stuck in the muck because US citizens are travel banned by dictate of the US gov. Damned shame it is.

[Mika]

169. Still no link, I see.

There is no post where I said "every Cuban-American is a traitor paid by Americans, or a Batista supporter". Your accusation is pure fantasy. I have repeatedly said that I know many Cuban-Americans who do not have the axe grinding mentality of the hard line exiles. I have always differentiated between the hard liners and the general Cuban-American community - most of whom have interests other than Castro this and Castro that.

Majority of Cuban-American's focus is local, not on Cuba or Castro

[Mika]

171. Still waiting for that link where DUers say "Castro is good"

So far, you've produced no definitive link to back up your accusation.

Please post one. Otherwise you'll be accused of BSing or lying.

[manic expression]

116. Yes, but not only that

have are also incorrect.

Castro is a figurehead who makes speeches and leads a demonstration here and there. He does not hold very much power, and excercises little of it.

The Cuban Assembly rules Cuba, and they are representative of the people.

http://members.allstream.net/~dchris/CubaFAQDemocracy.html

Care to try again?

[manic expression]

106. Facts?

You learned nothing, and your position indicates as much.

I not only have sympathy of socialists, I PROUDLY carry the red flag. The fact that you oppose equality and justice in this manner is quite telling.

Cuba has jailed "dissidents" who are on the payroll of the US. This is illegal not only in Cuba but in America. That is not only an illegal act, but it is an act against the achievements of Cuba and its people.

CUBANS TRY TO GET TO AMERICA BECAUSE OF THE ECONOMIC TROUBLES CAUSED BY THE US EMBARGOES! The fact that so few try to get to America (compared to Mexico, a US-approved country), especially when considering the guaranteed amnesty for Cubans who reach US shores, is yet another indication of Cuba's amazing policies. Cubans are trying to get to America for economic opportunity, primarily because of the economic siege placed upon Cuba by Uncle Sam.

The fact that you cannot think past your nose on this issue astounds me, although I should be used to it by now from living in the land of delusion.

[0007]

17. Sounds like Rove and his dirty tricks are at it again.

Ya just got a know, that Jack Abramoff and his boys have their eye on Cuba.

Like the way Meyer Lansky did business with Fulgencio Batista beofore Castro threw both of them out and pissed off the money grabbing Republicans.

[Clutch Cargo]

33. I'm sure that with the snap of his fingers

Castro could cut through the red tape and get their visas, thus preventing this deliberate propaganidizing ploy of the traitorous women who are attmepting, with the help of the U.S., to make it look as if they are being held back by a tyrant.

[manic expression]

48. You're sure?

Cuba is not making special concessions for groups that are furthering US imperialist interests. Why should such a concession be made when it was the group's fault?

[Clutch Cargo]

53. You're right.

How about if the EU mails the award to them and then they can call a news conference and show it off in public. Castro would have no problem with allowing that, would he?

[manic expression]

54. Where is it said

that they are being denied the award. They have already been awarded the honor. Attending the ceremony is the issue here.

[Clutch Cargo]

55. Well, at least you agree with me...

When you call the award an honor. I think it is too!

[manic expression]

56. Well,

Any award is an "honor", from the Latin Grammys to the Oscars to the NBA MVP. It is definitely an honor, but my personal feeling is that there are others who deserve it far more (like, a lot of other groups). That is my opinion, and it has no real bearing on this topic.

[kittenwithmittens]

35. These women are traitorous?

Because they happen to be married to dissidents who may or may not be traitors?

Mika, that sounds like Hitleresque thinking to me. Such languagge is very dangerous, and completely undermines us when we are called traitors for opposing the idiot in the white house. The freeps think that all of DU, Cindy Sheehan, and the Congressional Black Caucus are all traitors, and they just have to point to your post as an example.

Shame on you. If I didn't know better, I would think YOU were on someone's payroll. The question would be: Fidel's or Rove's?

[manic expression]

49. No, because

They happen to be acting on behalf of paid US agents. Those "dissidents" had accepted money and support from the US, which is not only accepting support from an aggressive foreign nation, but an act that is illegal in many countries (IIRC, the US included).

It is not Hilteresque at all. It is stating the facts: that these women are demonstrating for US imperial interests, and against the progress that has been made in Cuba. That is not only traitorous to Cuba itself, but traitorous to the equity and justice that has been achieved there.

Furthermore, this was the group's own doing, as they filed their paperwork past the deadline even though they had ample time to do so. Should Cuba change its rules just for this group? No, it shouldn't.

I would think that you are parroting common misperceptions. However, this is not completely shameful.

Also, see post #6. Thanks.

[Mika]

66. Silly.

If Cindy Sheehan or the Congressional Black Caucus were on Bin Laden's payroll then she/they would be considered traitorous. The so called "dissidents" who are in jail were on the US payroll. The US is the declared enemy of Cuba and seeks to overthrow the system of government of Cuba. To be aiding and abeting the declared enemy of one's own country, especially one that has perpetrated many acts of terrorism against one's own country, makes them traitorous.

[NorthELiberal]

14. "Why is the Cuban govt. clamping down on these women?"

Where have you been the last couple of decades.............

CASTRO is clamping down because HE IS SCUM..... plain and simple.

[Bridget Burke]

22. Then--why doesn't he arrtest them?

If activists in the US were being paid by Castro, do you think the US government would look upon them kindly?

[Mika]

24. The Cuban gov isn't clamping down on them

The Cuban government wouldn't put this group in front of the line and expedite their travel visas to Strasbourg. It doesn't mean that they are banned from travel. These women did not file for a travel visa until under two weeks ago, despite being invited to the ceremony in Strasbourg over a month ago. Obviously, they deliberately did this (on the advice of the new US interests section ambassador in Havana) just for the ignorant-of-Cuba propaganda impact that it has obviously gotten.

[muriel_volestrangler]

25. Why do they need a visa to travel in the first place?

Most countries let their citizens travel to other countries any time they want.

[Mika]

26. Most, but not all.

Mexico is another example.

[manic expression]

52. Actually, I believe that

most, if not almost all of third world countries with the means to do so practice this. Since Cuba is an island, it is more easily enforced than a country like El Salvador, persay.

Just a thought.

[hack89]

137. Why do a free people need permission to travel? nt

[Mika]

139. You mean, like Americans need permission to go to Cuba. Right?

If they don't get permission they are subject to large fines and/or jail.

I guess that Americans aren't free.

[hack89]

141. But I can travel to Europe, Asia, Africa, - can Cubans? nt

[Mika]

142. Yep. And they do..

.. visit (as well as legally work) all over the world provided that they can afford to (or have family that send them money so they can to do so). The only place that Cubans can't easily visit is the USA, mainly because it is the US government that denies most visas for Cubans to visit.

This is one of the reasons that I support the lifting of the trade and travel sanctions that the US government has placed on US (and foreign) trade with Cuba and the travel ban placed on (almost) all American citizens and residents as well as visitations by Cubans. Doing so would help Cuba develop a more prosperous economy that would benefit all Cubans financially.

[hack89]

143. Do they need government approval? nt

[Mika]

145. Only the USA allows illegal entry to Cubans. Wet Foot/Dry Foot policy

No country just grants people illegal entry into their borders as the USA does for Cubans only. That US policy is called Wet Foot/Dry Foot and the US Cuban Adjustment Act.

The USA currently offers over 20,000 LEGAL immigration visas per year to Cubans (and Bush has announced that the number would increase despite the fact that not all 20,000 were applied for in the last few years). This number is more than any other single country in the world. The US interests section in Cuba does the required criminal background check on the applicants.

The US's 'wet foot/ dry foot' policy (that applies to Cubans only) permits all Cubans, including Cuban criminals and felons, who arrive on US shores by illegal means to remain in the US despite having failed to qualify (or even apply) for a legal US immigration application.

Cubans who leave for the US without a US visa are returned to Cuba (if caught at sea - mainly in smuggler's go-fast boats @ $5,000 per head) by a US/Cuban repatriation agreement. But IF they make it to US soil, no matter who they are or what their criminal backround might be, they get to stay in the US and enjoy perks offered ONLY TO CUBAN IMMIGRANTS (via the US's Cuban Adjustment Act and a variety of other 'Cubans only' perks). Perks like instant work visa, instant green card, instant access to sec 8 taxpayer assisted housing, instant social security, instant welfare, free health care, and more.

These perks are not offered to any other immigrant group, but yet, without the perks offered to Cubans, immigrants still pour into the US from all over the Caribbean and the Latin Americas - many taking greater risks than Cubans to get here.


Get it? Visa or not, there is no such thing as a Cuban illegal immigrant in the USA. Plus, they get perks that no other group is offered.

[Bacchus39]

146. right, why do they attempt to come to the US in the first place??

I wonder???

[Mika]

158. Much the same reason that immigrants come to the US from all over

Better jobs.

Cubans are granted special immigration perks that no other immigrant groups is offered.

Immigrants come to the US from all over the world - from democratic countries. They come here for opportunities to earn more money than they could back at home. They come to work so that they can send a little of their earnings back to their relatives. It has little to do with "despotic' regimes, it has more to do with earning power.

Cuba is a special case though, in that it is the US's Helms-Burton law (and a myriad of other sanctions) that are intended to cripple the Cuban economy. This is the stated goal of the US government, as evidenced by the Bush* admin's latest 'crackdown' on family remittances to Cuba.

For Cuban migrants - including illegal immigrants who are smuggled in or have failed a US background check for a legal visa - the US's Cuban Adjustment Act instantly allows any and all Cuban migrants who touch US shore (no matter how) instant entry, instant work visa, instant green card status, instant social security, instant access to welfare, instant access to section 8 assisted housing (with a $41,000 income exemption).

We force economic deprivation on Cubans, then open our doors to any and all Cubans illegal or not, and then offer them a plethora of immigration perks and housing perks not even available to native born Americans or other immigrants.

But yet more immigrants come from Mexico and the Latin Americas than do Cubans, and they have no such "Adjustment Act" like Cubans do. But they still pour in.

Plus, Cuban immigrants can hop on a plane from Miami to Havana and travel right back to the Cuba that they "escaped" from for family trips and vacations - by the hundred of thousands annually (less so now that Bush has limited the trips to once every 3 years for Cubans who "fled" Cuba).

Recognizing the immorality of forced starvation and forced economic deprivation is a good reason to drop the US embargo on Cuba and the US travel sanctions placed on US citizens and residents. Then the Cuban economy would be able to expand even faster, thereby increasing the average wage in Cuba. It would make products, goods, and services even more accessible to both Cubans and Americans. It would reduce the economic based immigration flow from Cuba. And it would restore our own constitutional right to travel unfettered to see Cuba for ourselves.

[Bacchus39]

160. I thought things were so good in Cuba though

I mean they have free health care and people can generally read. although what they are allowed to read is restricted.

yeah, I know about the US's immigration policy. yet, as far as I know, other countries don't restrict their citizens from leaving.

[Mika]

170. Hello. Did you actually read the post you are responding to?

You don't seem to understand that most of the Cuban immigrants that have come to the US have come here for the same reasons that immigrants from all over the Caribbean and Latin Americas come to the US.. better paying jobs. Jobs that help them earn enough money to send some back to their family in their homeland. The majority of Cuban immigrants don't have the all consuming focus & hatred of Fidel Castro that you do, and the USA offers Cubans many avenues and a wealth of exclusive perks for immigrating here.. plus they can travel back to their homeland and take or send money.. just like almost all other immigrants do.



"I know about the US's immigration policy. yet, as far as I know, other countries don't restrict their citizens from leaving."


Huh? The US restricts Americans from going to Cuba.




"although what they are allowed to read is restricted"


Oh. I guess that's why one of the largest international book fairs is held in Havana.

The only thing that Cuba "restricts" is the jamming of the US's Radio & TV Marti signal, which are illegal by international agreement. Otherwise Cubans can and do have access to almost all international media (if they can afford it).

[Bacchus39]

172. Cubans internet access is restricted

it is not illegal to actually travel to Cuba. and Cuba is just one country. the US does not restrict my travel to most other countries. Cuba demands that any pre-approved trip that the citizens come back or their "right" to return is forfeit. It is NOT illegal to leave the United States.

regarding your first part, so Cuba does not provide enough for its citizens to live on? is that why they immigrate to the US??

[Mika]

174. "their "right" to return is forfeit" isn't true

"Cuba demands that any pre-approved trip that the citizens come back or their "right" to return is forfeit."


So what about all of the Miamicubans who have come over to the US illegally (on smuggling ops or rafts or hijacked plane) who then go back to Cuba for a family visit?
:rolf:




"It is NOT illegal to leave the United States."

OK, it just depends on if you are coming back from Cuba then.

If you leave the US to go to Cuba without permission then it is illegal. An American without travel approval cannot go to Cuba on any of the airline flights daily out of Miami and Ft Lauderdale. There's a "security zone" around the coast of Florida, if one is on a boat bound for Cuba from the US the US Coast Guard will stop you. If one returns from Cuba (without a US permit) then one is subject to steep fines and/or jail.

[tatertop]

173. I did not know that. g r e a t post

[Bacchus39]

147. you just posted that the US gives Cuba more visas

than any other country and now you are saying that the US denies most visas. well, that may be true but it does the same to most visa applications from most third world countries.

[Mika]

156. There's a difference between immigration visas and travel visas, you know.

Maybe you should take the time to read AND comprehend what has been posted.

[Bacchus39]

157. yes, I know. the US typically denies both for residents of

3rd world countries.

no reason for insults. I think we both agree that congratulations are in order for these women who are speaking out and standing up for free expression as evidenced by the award.

[Mika]

159. And these women do so without gov harassment.

As you have pointed out, they are freely speaking out and standing up for free expression.

They just aren't bounced to the front of the visa line because they waited too long to apply for them.

[Bacchus39]

161. yeah, too bad Castro wouldn't make an exception to expedite

"approval" of their visas. I wouldn't need approval from the US government to travel to Europe.

maybe Castro will honor them by having a ceremony in Cuba for them for speaking out for freedom of expression and the right to dissent. what do you think?? maybe Castro will even let their husbands out of prison to join them.

[Mika]

163. But you would need approval to go to Cuba

"maybe Castro will even let their husbands out of prison to join them"


If their husbands wouldn't have violated the law by aiding and abeting the declared enemy of Cuba that has perpetrated invasion, perpetrated acts of terror, attempted assassinations of Cuban leaders, and funded terrorist organizations that have attacked Cuba, Cubans, and Cuban interests in and outside of Cuba, then they wouldn't be in jail.

[Bacchus39]

164. wow, and they still received an award!!! or they are supposed to anyway

I wonder why the EU would do that??

I don't need special permission to travel to Europe. Cubans need permission to travel anywhere.

[manic expression]

175. Not so

So you can just waltz into Europe without ANY checks of any kind? If so, you need no permission. If you cannot, you do actually need permission to travel abroad.

Secondly, they easily could have gotten the permission simply by putting their paperwork in sooner. They didn't, so they ran into problems. Yeah, real oppressive, isn't it? :eyes:

[Bacchus39]

149. IF Cubans are permitted to travel they must come back or be banished

n/t

[Mika]

162. See post #153

Post #153

[cantstandbush]

9. Our government lies when it isn't necessary. They didn't follow the rules

How many more lies are we going to tell about Cuba and Castro?

[redqueen]

34. Countless, as long as sheeple keep eating them up.

Means to an end...

[rinsd]

40. The only time DUers favor the rules are when they are Castro's ...

What would the outcry be if Cindy Sheehan was to be feted for her work in a foreign country and didn't get her Visa stuff together in a timely manner and so the gov't denied her travel?

There would be howling from the rooftops here.

Look at the posts here calling them traitors? WTF is that?

A police state is endorsed for "protecting the revolution" while at the same time we are fighting against a police state here in our own country.

[manic expression]

50. If Cindy Sheehan

deliberately missed the deadline to make a stunt, while acting on behalf of people who had accepted support from an aggressive nation, then I doubt she would recieve much support here. Cindy is protesting unjustified foreign meddling, while that group is contributing to it.

By the way, it is worth noting that that group felt no punishment for their protests or their political positions. They missed the deadline.

Cuba is not a police state at all. Do you have any support of this claim?

[rinsd]

64. Are you listening to yourself?

"deliberately missed the deadline to make a stunt, while acting on behalf of people who had accepted support from an aggressive nation, then I doubt she would recieve much support here."

You don;t hang around here much do you?

"By the way, it is worth noting that that group felt no punishment for their protests or their political positions. They missed the deadline."

Why would it be worth noting if it were unusual for them NOT to get punishment?

"Cuba is not a police state at all."

Move along, nothing to see here.

"Do you have any support of this claim?"

There is a middle ground between US and Cuban propaganda. Cuba and its people are not evil incarnate. Nor is it some kind of utopian paradise.

But if we can call this country a police state, we can certainly apply the same to Cuba.

And if you doubt me read up on Human Rights Watch and Amnesty International, shit do it for both the US and CUba....though, and you may find this hilarious, people on this thread will dispute THOSE organizations as dupes of the US.

[manic expression]

68. Yes,

but the sounds computer keys make isn't too enlightening.

Cindy Sheehan accepted support from a nation that has been trying to topple the US government? Which one? A source would be good, too.

It's worth noting that because most people are ignorant about Cuba. They assume that this is punishment for political demonstrations, when it has nothing to do with that. Their protests went without punishment, which is the norm in Cuba. It's working for the US that is the problem, but that is but a tangent in relation to this particular group.

Any evidence of your assertions? Didn't think so. You should move along, but you're stuck on the same tired and incorrect point.

Cuba's achievements in housing, healthcare, infrastructure, education, equality and representation is MORE than OUTSTANDING. This is even more impressive when one considers the US embargoes.

I have read up on HRW and AI, but they simply report "dissidents imprisoned" without noting why or how. This leads to inaccurate reports on many situations, not just Cuba (Rwanda springs to mind, when they lobbied for the release of the editor of a government-run newspaper that was spewing anti-Tutsi filth...he was imprisoned because he wasn't doing it well enough but was released shortly after. Meanwhile, another editor of another newspaper which promoted understanding and coexistence was still in prison, while AI considered their effort of a joint-letter well done). They are not perfect either, and I find it amusing that you suggest such a thing while you praise "middle ground" thinking.

[rinsd]

71. You want to try to drop the script......

"Cindy Sheehan accepted support from a nation that has been trying to topple the US government? Which one? A source would be good, too."

Reading comprehension is difficult, go to the original post.

"It's worth noting that because most people are ignorant about Cuba. They assume that this is punishment for political demonstrations, when it has nothing to do with that. Their protests went without punishment, which is the norm in Cuba. It's working for the US that is the problem, but that is but a tangent in relation to this particular group."

LOL...the Freudian gaffs are amusing.

And here it comes...wait for it...wait for it..

"Cuba's achievements in housing, healthcare, infrastructure, education, equality and representation is MORE than OUTSTANDING. This is even more impressive when one considers the US embargoes."

Exactly where did I dispute Cuba's achievements? Why mention this other than to misdirect one's attention from the accusation of them being a polcie state?

"They are not perfect either, and I find it amusing that you suggest such a thing while you praise "middle ground" thinking."

No one said they were perfect. You also didn't have to limit yourself to just this case. There's PLENTY to look at. Like I said check out the ones for the US too.

So the only source we can truly believe is the Cuban goivernment? Right...glad we sorted that out.

[manic expression]

74. Forget what you've been force-fed

Then what were you trying to say? You implied a lack of knowledge with regards to Cindy Sheehan and illegal support. Writing and logic is difficult, you don't need to feel bad.

Seriously, if you're not going to argue with me and just cite Freudian gaffs, just leave. I don't need to waste my time. Make actual points, please.

Would an authoritarian government provide for the people in such a way? Did Castro just give it to Cubans? Both answers are no. The Cuban people, through representation and expression, got those achievements. It's called making connections. Try it.

One should take many things into account. AI and HRW is known to NOT do this in some cases.

Care to actually argue?

[rinsd]

76. Why bother arguing with you...

...when you spout non relevant talking points.

"
Would an authoritarian government provide for the people in such a way"

Keep the people happy and content...how do you think our government stays in power?

[manic expression]

77. Please

Yes, the living conditions in Cuba are amazing because of authoritarian policies..............

:rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

Wow. Maybe it is because Cuba is giving its people what they deserve, creating equality and justice instead of exploitation. Actually, that IS it.

Also, thank you for AGAIN ignoring my other point about representation. You haven't bothered to argue with me in the first place, so why start now?

[rinsd]

79. Keep drinking that kool aid....

...shit I could change the names and be talking to Bush supporter for the dead end mentality you exhibit.

[manic expression]

81. Right

just keep thinking that authoritarian policies got Cuba its first-rate universal medical system, as well as leaps and bounds in education, and then some.

Dead end mentality? Try waking up and looking at reality instead of blinding yourself with propaganda. That might help.

What is telling is that a Bush supporter would argue the same insipid talking points that you are.

[Mika]

82. For a poster who states 'authoritarian government keeps the people happy..

.. and content' you're not one to be questioning other posters "dead end mentality". :rofl:



But, you do state that authoritarianism is the US's form of government. At least we have that from you.

[Cessna Invesco Palin]

83. This is tiring.

With respect to the international community, Castro's problems are mostly of his own making, and it is not exactly a shallow grave. The fact that you appear willing to blindly accept his statements and blame the US for all of his problems shows a distinct lack of any logical reasoning on your part. Your entire characterisation of his actions is wrong. Every respected NGO in the world disagrees with your position, yet you persist in supporting this rubbish. Why? What is it about totalitarianism that so attracts you? I suppose, since you are a supporter of Castro, that you believe you would be a part of his inner circle. A cabinet member, perhaps? March on, dude.

[Mika]

89. Interesting that all you have is accusations and slander.

Anyone who has followed the DU ‘Cuba threads’ knows that I have consistently said that it is the Cuban people who are responsible for what goes on in Cuba, not Castro. Mr. Castro doesn't deserve the accolades nor the condemnations of all the good and bad of Cuba.

Mr. Castro isn't the Cuban government. Mr. Castro doesn't force Cubans to excel in education and health care to make Cuba one of the statistical world leaders in those arenas. It is the thousands of educators, doctors, nurses, medical researchers, assistants, technicians, and all who contribute to the betterment of all Cubans (and many people all over the world who are in need of the help that the good people of Cuba offer).

It seems to be you, not me, who attributes all things Cuban to be Mr. Castro. That is a shameful anti Cuban put down of the vast majority of Cubans in Cuba who run their country as best as they can under the circumstances they are faced with. They do a damned good job of it.

Interesting that your responses to a poster who dares to post information and ideas (based on actual experience) other than toe-the-line US government anti Cuba propaganda is to accuse them of being a Castro cabinet member or part of his inner circle. Your responses reflect a willingness to blindly accept the US government agenda based position on Cuba. Pity.

I won't impugn you or slander you or accuse you of being a Bush supporter. That line of 'discussion' is tiring. I wish you wouldn't resort to it. I do wish you all the best in hopes that one day you'll get a chance to see Cuba for yourself (that is, if the US gov dictate banning US travel to Cuba is lifted), and hopefully you'll get a chance to meet the Cuban people who love their country and work hard at keeping it sovereign and free from US imperialism.. because it is they -not Castro- who make Cuba what it is now.

[Cessna Invesco Palin]

94. Actually,

I believe that US policy on Cuba is morally abhorrent and I do not support it. However, this does not mean that I am required to like Castro or his policies. You have made a habit of defending his stifling of dissent - something that has been condemned by every respectable human rights organisation in the world.

[Mika]

96. As usual, Castro this Castro that.

Castro this Castro that Castro this Castro that ((((Yawn))))



Cuba does have a government. Do you know that? Its not Castro.

Your complete focus on Castro is toeing the anti Cuba party line, and playing in support of US policy on Cuba - which is focused on Castro as if he is the be-all end-all of the Cuban government. The intent of this is to shift focus away from the fact that Cuba does have legitimate domestic opposition which does not adhere to US goals of subjugating Cuba or privatizing Cuba's infrastructure. Therefore the US policy is to ignore and undermine Cuba's legitimate domestic political opposition parties by focusing nearly 100% on the US funded & fabricated "dissident" operatives as if they are the only opposition.

The Cuban government does not stifle domestic dissent or domestic political parties (I've been in Cuba during an entire election season and have seen many opposition rallies and political platform meetings for myself). The Cuban authorities do bust foreign funded "dissident" organizations on the payroll of the declared enemy of Cuba (the US, and several Miamicubano terra organizations), whos goal is to overthrow the system of government in Cuba, some using violence.




http://www.poptel.org.uk/cuba-solidarity/democracy.htm

This system in Cuba is based upon universal adult suffrage for all those aged 16 and over. Nobody is excluded from voting, except convicted criminals or those who have left the country. Voter turnouts have usually been in the region of 95% of those eligible .

There are direct elections to municipal, provincial and national assemblies, the latter represent Cuba's parliament.

Electoral candidates are not chosen by small committees of political parties. No political party, including the Communist Party, is permitted to nominate or campaign for any given candidates.

--


The Cuban government was reorganized (approved by popular vote) into a variant parliamentary system in 1976.

You can read a short version of the Cuban system here,
http://members.allstream.net/~dchris/CubaFAQDemocracy.html

Or a long and detailed version here,
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0968508405/qid=1053879619/sr=1-2/ref=sr_1_2/102-8821757-1670550?v=glance&s=books




_______


yibbehobba, I do notice that you do not address any of the info that has been posted about the US funding of "dissidents" and "independant libraries" and propaganda (all of which are illegal in the US also) in light of the fact that the US is the declared enemy of Cuba and has perpetrated illegal attacks on Cuba & funded Miamicubano terrorist organizations who run ops in Cuba & harbors terrorists who have perpetrated heinous acts of terror against Cuba, Cubans and Cuban interests.

I do notice that.

Do you agree that Cuba does have a right (actually, a duty) to defend the nation and its people from foreign aggressors & terrorists who have a history of attacking Cuba seeking to overthrow its sovereign government, and those who aid and abet said foreign aggressors and terrorists?

[muriel_volestrangler]

98. Now you've confused us

You link to a page saying the Cuban constitution defines a "democratic, socialist, one-party system"; but you also talk about "Cuba's legitimate domestic political opposition parties". What are these legitimate parties?

[manic expression]

105. You've been confused long before this

"Candidates are nominated not by any political party or elite political action committees, but by the people themselves in open public meetings in each neighbourhood, or by their democratically elected representatives who themselves were nominated in this way. And it costs nothing to win public office, even at the highest level."

Did you get that? The parties have little influence in elections when compared to the US. There is, however, political opposition and a number of figures that oppose Cuba's policies that have been pointed out before.

Here's something of interest:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/3702431.stm

[muriel_volestrangler]

111. In other words, there aren't any other parties

apart from the Communist Party. That's what the constitution says, according to your links; and the Communist party doesn't nominate candidates for the parliament.

[Mika]

115. Nope

I guess that you haven't heard of Oswaldo Paya's Partido Demócrata Cristiano de Cuba (PDC) (Christian Democratic Party of Cuba) for example.

There's a lot for most Americans to learn about Cuba, I guess that is why the US dictated travel ban placed US citizens is in place - to keep the US people in the dark. Looking at this thread.. its working.


http://www.gksoft.com/govt/en/cu.html

* Partido Comunista de Cuba (PCC) {Communist Party of Cuba}
* Partido Demócrata Cristiano de Cuba (PDC) {Christian Democratic Party of Cuba} - Oswaldo Paya's Catholic party
* Partido Solidaridad Democrática (PSD) {Democratic Solidarity Party}
* Partido Social Revolucionario Democrático Cubano {Cuban Social Revolutionary Democratic Party}
* Coordinadora Social Demócrata de Cuba (CSDC) {Social Democratic Coordination of Cuba}
* Unión Liberal Cubana {Cuban Liberal Union}

[muriel_volestrangler]

119. The PDC appear to be based in Miami

which is strange for a 'legitimate domestic political opposition party'. Are any of those parties based in Cuba, apart from the Communist Party?

[manic expression]

122. How so?

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/3702431.stm

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/4567393.stm

"Not all dissidents have backed the meeting, however.

Oswaldo Paya, of the Christian Liberation Movement, accused Ms Roque of working with the Cuban security forces.

He also said that her backing by hardline exile groups in Miami could be used as an excuse for a future crackdown by Cuban authorities."

He is a big figure in the PDC, and where is he?

Interesting, no?

[Mika]

123. Those are Miami versions of the parties. Without authorization from the..

..Cuban based parties. They have no legitimate connection. This is one of the ways that the Miamicubano "exiles" attempt to discredit the domestic Cuban parties to Cubans in Cuba. If you lived in Miami and had seen the parties in Cuba you would understand this. The domestic Cuban parties decry this type of US based duplication. The Cuban domestic parties are trying to establish themselves as having more credibility without US connections or funding, but the Miamicubano extremist factions do not want legitimate parties to function in Cuba because that would acknowledge recognition of the functioning system of government in Cuba in which the domestic parties operate. The Miamicubano extremists insist on not recognizing the current system in Cuba.

[manic expression]

104. Please

more unsupported and delusional claims.

How has Castro or Cuba "stifled dissent"? Give me one example. By the way, if you bring up "dissidents" who recieved funding and support from the US (the perpetrator of that same "morally abhorrent" policies, no less!), I will laugh at you.

[Clutch Cargo]

108. Here's one example

How about the fact that we're all talking about Cuba but we hear no opinions from Cubans themselves!!
Apparently they are not allowed to express themselves on forums such as DU. There are plenty of people from all over the globe on this website, so, why no Cubans?

[manic expression]

109. Wow

This is wrong on so many levels. Where do I begin?

1.) Computers are not common luxuries for most Cubans, much less internet access. Being a 3rd world country and having an economic siege will do that to a country. However, this is not because of restriction, as Cubans can regularly listen to US news stations such as CNN through simple radios, which are common. I have heard this fact from people who have been on the island.

2.) There are people who have lived in Cuba on this forum, and from the posters I have seen, they have not condemned the Cuban government at all.

3.) Why do you not criticize the governments of Bolivia, Haiti, El Salvador, Nicaragua, Costa Rica, Belize, Guatemala, Argentina, India, Nigeria, Indonesia, Sri Lanka, Thailand, Russia, Mongolia, Monaco, Guinea, Senegal, South Africa and other countries, simply because we see no DU posters from (most or all of) those countries? Get a grip.

[Clutch Cargo]

110. Sorry, I didn't know Cuba was a third world country

I keep hearing about the quality of their science, medicine, etc. I guess I assumed that internet connectivity was available at their major universities and govt. institutions. Internet cafes exist in third world countries such as Nigeria, but apparently not in Cuba.

[manic expression]

117. It is

However, there is amazing medical care, housing, education, literacy rates (their infant mortality rate is almost equal to or above our own, and their literacy rate is IIRC higher than ours) and other things because Cuba provides for its people instead of Uncle Sam. Even with a struggling economy (primarily because of the US siege), they manage to give their people what they deserve...and then some. A country does not need to be filthy rich for the people to have a good standard of living, and Cuba proves that a country can do this in a big way,.

Do you think medical students and government officials are going to spend their time posting on this website? You assume the improbable. There are no posters here from Nigeria, so your point is invalid.

By the way, if you would like me to give you the *actual* statistics that show the standard of life in Cuba, please tell me.

On edit, just look at post #113 for those facts. Thanks.

[Bacchus39]

151. have you ever been to an internet cafe in latin america??

if you have you would realize how absurd your assertion is. by the way, not everyone in Cuba is a doctor. outside news sources and internet access are extremely limited.

[manic expression]

176. Again, that's not true

Did I say everyone is a doctor? However, A LOT of people are, as Cuba's doctor to person ratio is better than America's (or the UK's).

Furthermore, outside news sources are exxtremely accessible. Any Cuban can listen to American news through use of a simple radio. That alone completely debunks your assertion.

[rinsd]

99. Do you have reading comprehension problems as well?

Keeping the people happy and distracted is part of how an authoritarian government retains its power.

"But, you do state that authoritarianism is the US's form of government. At least we have that from you."

Oh our government can indeed be authoritarian. Why you won't admit Cuba can be as well is beyond me.

[manic expression]

103. I believe that you have problems

on the topic of worldview.

Cuba provides for its people with healthcare, housing, education, literacy, food, water, infrastructure and more. This is not the work of an authoritarian government, it is the work of a government that has the people's interests at heart.

Furthermore, there is a great amount of representation and freedom in Cuba.

http://members.allstream.net/~dchris/CubaFAQDemocracy.html

There is also equity and parity, something lacking in the US in a big way.

This is the ANTITHESIS of authoritarianism, which would explain why an authoritarian power has ceaselessly been trying to topple it for decades (the fact that this has not been effective is yet another indication of the support the government has from the people).

In America, these things I mentioned are all declining, and for the poor, they are but a mirage. It is capitalist delusion which keeps people distracted, but not happy. The richest and most successful people lead the most empty of lives. How is that happiness? How is that justice?

[manic expression]

75. On that 'only source' claim

Covering and Not Covering Cuba
http://www.canadiandimension.mb.ca/v37/v37_4lh.htm

"Roque held an open press conference in Havana shortly after the much condemned trial of the ©¯dissidents and independent journalists©˜ in early April. A respectable number of the 157 foreign correspondents operating freely in Cuba were there, but few found the testimony of one Nestor Sanchez Galarraga Baguer of any interest.

Sr. Baguer was Chairman of the Cuban Independent Press Association, an organization home to several dissident journalists revered by Canadian media.

It turns out that Sr. Baguer was recruited by the US Interests Section of Havana (the compound that houses American foreign service personnel) to create and/or distort information to feed to American sponsored counter-revolutionary Radio Marti, and to several other journalistic fronts as necessary.

A special open pass gave him 24 hour access to the US facilities including an Internet room where a couple of dozen other phoney ©¯independents©˜ worked. Sr. Baguer explained that they were told what to write about and paid generously in cash with money smuggled in through couriers. Among his assorted colleagues in disinformation was the alleged exiled poet Raul Rivero, also ©¯connected©˜ as a writer for the ultra-conservative newspaper, the Miami Herald.

Fortunately for the US Interests Section, Nestor Baguer was a real journalist who knew how to make phoney stories look good. Unfortunately, he was also a double agent for Cuban intelligence(codename Octavio) who©ˆd been operating undercover successfully since 1960. Should have been a helluva story, but for all the attention he got, Sr. Baguer could have saved his breath. Not only are North American media not interested in the truth about Cuba; when we find it, we kill it."

There are many other posts with actual info that you can check out.

[Judi Lynn]

84. For the 14th year in a row, the embargo condemned by the LARGE

majority of the members of the General Assembly at the United Nations. This occured even with major asshole John Bolton there, pushing and shoving, trying to coerce support for _Bush's idiotic position.

The Miami Herald
November 09, 2005

UNITED NATIONS Again, U.N. vote urges end to Cuba embargo
For the 14th straight year, the U.N. General Assembly called on the United States to end its trade embargo against Cuba. Cuban officials hailed the 182-4 vote but knew it would be ignored. BY EDITH M. LEDERER Associated Press

UNITED NATIONS - The U.N. General Assembly overwhelmingly urged the United States on Tuesday to end its 44-year-old trade embargo against Cuba, a call U.S. Ambassador John Bolton dismissed as ``a complete exercise in irrelevancy.''

It was the 14th straight year that the 191-member world body approved a resolution calling for the U.S. economic and commercial embargo against Cuba to be repealed ``as soon as possible.''

The vote was 182-4, with 1 abstention, a higher ''yes'' vote than last year's vote of 179-4 with 1 abstention. Many delegates in the General Assembly hall burst into applause when the result was flashed on an electronic screen.
(snip/...)

http://www.globalexchange.org/countries/americas/cuba/3573.html

[Mika]

91. Don'tcha know, the large majority of UN (182-4) are all Castro supporters.

:rofl:

BREAKING GUSANO NEWS BREAKING GUSANO NEWS BREAKING GUSANO NEWS BREAKING GUSANO NEWS
Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that
this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that

[eridani]

86. If she was in the pay of bin Laden--

--she wouldn't be accepted as a leader in the peace movement.

[Mika]

114. "The only time DUers favor the rules are when they are Castro's "

Posted by rinsd --> "The only time DUers favor the rules are when they are Castro's "

What a friggin insult to DU. Your post should be brought to the attention of the mods, but I won't because it is beyond ridiculous.

So DUers aren't disparaging the repukes for breaking campaign finance rules, or the NSA and Pentagon violating privacy rules, for example?

:wtf:

Maybe you should take some reading comprehension lessons. :shrug:

[noonwitch]

42. I know that Bush doesn't do diplomacy, but (inside)

He should propose to Castro that he'll let the Cuban baseball team into this country, if Castro will let the ladies go get their EU award.

But I know, we only hold Castro to human rights' standards, not China or Saudia Arabia, not to mention our own government's practices in the war on everyone who might be or look like a terrorist.

[rinsd]

69. That's a great idea...bush will never think of it :-(

[rfkrfk]

87. how long does it take to get an 'entrance visa', for someone

visiting from the EU for example,

compare to,

a Cuban who wants to travel internationaly,
and thus needs an exit visa?

[Clutch Cargo]

88. Why do we hear no opinions from Cubans on DU?

I'm sure that the internet exists over there. My guess is that they are not allowed the freedom to air their opinions globally in forums such as this.

[Bacchus39]

148. because they are busy enjoying their $10 dollar a month

salaries. perhaps they are out celebrating their health care system. or perhaps they are enjoying their unparalleled literacy rate by going to the libraries and reading all the uncensored library materials they have amassed. or perhaps they are busy watching the television shows from other latin american nations and the US which of course have unimpeded access in Cuba.

there are a multitude of reasons why you never see internet postings from Cubans on the island. surely, authoritarian censorship isn't one of them.

[Billy Burnett]

97. Meanwhile, 285 million+ Americans are barred from travel by the US govt

It is interesting to notice that while the mewling and laments for these women goes on in this thread, the US government has barred the entire US population from traveling to Cuba. That is 285,000,000+ citizens and residents who are barred by the US govt who have no connections to any surreptitious political activity whatsoever.

The only posters who point this fact out and openly lament it are branded as “Castro supporters” by DUers who seem to know very little about what is going on currently in Cuba.

This is an 'interesting' thread in that regard.



:hi: Hi Mika and Judi L.

[Judi Lynn]

100. Yeah, "interesting!" Don't look at the U.S., total travel ban

on ALL Americans, the very same people who pay our regime's salaries, under penalty of law if we don't.

Meanwhile, the entire rest of the world comes and goes from Cuba freely, but Cuba travel banned mental giants in the U.S. squint at Cuba and claim Cuba is really screwed up. Tunnel vision.

The Cuban right-wing will have to fight like wildmen forever to keep that ban in place, knowing that if Americans suddenly start coming and going from Cuba as freely as Canadians, Mexicans, South Americans, people from the Caribbean, Central Americans, Europeans, Africans, Asians, etc., their lies will be common knowledge OVERNIGHT. Their credibility will be destroyed completely, they will lose their funding, no doubt, all their pork projects, Cuban Adjustment Act benefits, and special attraction to U.S. politicians seeking huge campaign funds, like Jesse Helms, Dan Burton, Tom Delay, Robert Torricelli, and dingaling Bob Smith.

Hiya, hiya, Billy Burnett! GREAT to see you! :woohoo: :woohoo: :woohoo:

[hack89]

138. Do Cubans have the right to travel anywhere in the world..

whenever they wish?

[Mika]

140. No. The US bars most Cubans from entering on a visit or to attend ..

.. lectures or award ceremonies, or even to play a baseball tournament.

If Cubans can afford it (which few can) then they can and do travel around the globe - and then return to their homes, in Cuba.

[Bacchus39]

150. and IF the government gives them permission to do so

which is a big "if" you failed to mention. also, if they don't come back within the period specified by the Cuban government they risk being forever banished.

[Mika]

153. Not true

Cuba even grants passport to Miamicuban exiles who haven't been back to Cuba for many years.

The only group who are so-called "banished" are those who claim political asylum. Still, even they can return to Cuba to visit, they just can't claim that they are Cuban citizens any more and can't get a Cuban passport.


I live in Miami and know many Cuba immigrants who are resident aliens of the US who have applied for, and received their new Cuban passports - even though they haven't been to Cuba for a couple of decades.


I don't know from where you pulled out your "big if" scenerio. But I can guess. :hurts:

[Bacchus39]

154. the "big if" is granting Cubans the right to travel in the first place

n/t

[manic expression]

177. Mika has shown you actual examples

contrary to your claims. Will you not provide any evidence? Will you simply continue with your "if" argument, even though there is much to support the opposing viewpoint?

[daleo]

121. Americans are free to go to Cuba

As long as they don't mind being arrested upon return. Now, that's freedom!

[Judi Lynn]

127. Interesting Frontline interview with Cuban exile Francisco Aruca,Miami

~snip~

.......I must confess that I do not believe very much whenever these Cuban exiles talk about freedom in Cuba or anywhere else, because they have used their power in Miami to accomplish everything except freedom for everybody in Miami. There is no freedom of expression within the Cuban community. The few free expressions freely expressed here through the media usually have come at a high risk, and usually through very specialized efforts to get some type of commercials to back it up. Whenever they talk about diversity of opinion, democracy or freedom, they don't mean it. Basically, what they have done is eliminate the American Constitution from Miami.

In which way?

They have violated some of the most important principles guaranteed by the Constitution, that is, freedom of expression. Even today, if you analyze the Nuevo Herald, which is the daily Spanish paper in the city, you will find that in their editorial pages they don't have a single columnist that writes an opinion different from what the traditional exile position is. And when you're talking about a newspaper in the United States, if you can be as categorical as I am being, that means that they have managed to smash public opinion here quite a bit.

Is it the same with Ordinance 101?

In a way, it's something similar. They managed to have an ordinance approved at City Hall that would prevent any kind of relationship between public funds or public property and anything that had to do with Cuban athletes, Cuban artists, or any company that might have cooperated with Cuba. For all practical effects, nobody could come here with a show, an exhibition, or a sports game if Cuba had any kind of link to it. They couldn't come here and expect any kind of public support. And it cost us millions, in terms of events that have had to move to some other areas because they couldn't be done here in Dade County.

What was the rationale?

They would support anything in Miami that, in their opinion, creates an obstacle to normal relations with Cuba. That has been their traditional position. That is why I refer to their position as a philosophy or theory of total isolation. Somehow they have created an alternative Cuba here. They need that in order to prosper. Consequently, if anything violates that total isolation they wish to maintain with Cuba, they're going to try to achieve it. We have more than one million Cubans living in Dade County, and I dare you to go through all the radio stations in Spanish and see if you find any one of them playing music from Cuba, which is absurd.

But it's all about Cuba?

They use Cuba as a political thesis behind which they hide, in order to amass more and more power here. They have enough support behind them to elect politicians. Those politicians give them contracts, so they can make more money. When they make more money they can contribute more to elect more politicians. That is why I call them an industry. They have created here a very complex situation.
(snip)

Castro is the eternal enemy?

For some of the exiles, yes, of course. He's going to be their eternal enemy until they die. That's the way they see it, no doubt about it. Back in 1978, Fidel Castro even tried, for the first time, to change policy in relations to Cubans in the United States, and he carried out what was known as the dialogue sessions. He invited Cubans from the United States to come and dialogue and find a solution, for example, to release political prisoners, or to allow Cubans from the United States to travel to Cuba. Immediately, all those who, one way or the other, thought that that was an answer were called traitors in Miami. I was in Miami at the time, and I can tell you that the businesses were bombed, and people lost their jobs. Professional people who were established in very prosperous businesses lost those opportunities because of the social pressures. When it comes to smashing opposition, this is a very un-American city--you better understand that.
(snip)

These people have never felt the pressures as a group, as a political organization, as a social effort, as an industry--which is what they are. They never really lost a battle here. They are above the law. Some of the companies that are linked to that industry have been investigated now for three years on corruption charges, and we're still waiting for the results. So these people really enjoyed a tremendous amount of impunity. When they saw that happen, the world collapsed on them. And I think it's been a terrific lesson. The Elián case marked the beginning of the unraveling of that industry.

What do you mean by "the industry?"

The "evil industry" is what I call the segment of the Cuban exiles that has tremendous control of media, money, and politicians. It's a very complex apparatus.
(snip/...)http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/elian/interviews/aruca.html

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

He's a great man. His businesses have been bombed, and his employees even beaten by some Cuban "exile" criminal class thugs.

[Judi Lynn]

128. From another Frontline Miami interview, a Baptist minister discussing

Cuban "exiles" after Elián Gonzalez was returned to his father in Cuba. One more reference to the fact that before _Bush cut off almost all Cuban "exile" travel to and from Cuba, it was very common for them to come and go to the island:

What I've discovered is that many of our Cuban brothers and sisters go back and forth to Cuba weekly, monthly, and they take millions of dollars worth of supplies and they send money over to their relatives.

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/elian/interviews/curry.html

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

I started hearing about this "exile" travel to and from Cuba years ago, and it was news to me, because up 'til then, I also believed no one was allowed. I knew zip about Cuba. When I learned Elián's drunken great uncle, Lázaro Gonzalez had met Elián in Cuba at his own house when the old #### went down there on vacation, had slept on Juan Miguel Gonzalez's very own bed, while he, Elián's own father slept out in his car to accomodate the old ####, THEN I knew there was a whole lot missing between what I had heard about Cuba and what has really been happening! (He was such a great guest, he spent his days fishing, and his nights boozing it up at the local hotel bars. From an article researched in Cuba by Georgereporters or some other magazine during the Elián imprisonment in Little Havana.

Since then I've heard people from South Florida (including a sour old Cuban "exile" woman on a message board who informed her young Cuban exile friend of her Cuban sister's visit to her home in the States, and her return home) that Cubans have come and gone to the States regularly for ages. It doesn't get a lot of publicity, apparently, as it doesn't fit into the picture the right-wing idiots try to project of Cuba to the rest of the country.

[Judi Lynn]

129. Interesting Frontline interview with Alberto Durán, Bay of Pigs veteran

~snip~

Yes, I've been to Cuba twice. The first time I went to Cuba was since I was released from the Bay of Pigs invasion. It was a very emotional thing. I had been believing for all these years that the only way I would ever get back to Cuba was in the revolution or invasion or some kind of real traumatic experience. And when I arrived in Cuba I felt like I had never left. Everything was as if I had been there all my life. I got adjusted in two minutes flat. I knew every place that I was going. The people treated me very well. I felt that I was at home, and that is an enlightened realization. I felt really good. The first time I spent seven days, and I traveled all over Havana. I went to visit the house where I was born and raised.

You went back to the Bay of Pigs?

I went to the Bay of Pigs. The person who took me to the Bay of Pigs was a veteran of the Bay of Pigs on the other side. He had been an officer who fought against the brigade. It was a very interesting experience, because when we started out, the man felt like he hated me. He felt that what he was going through was demeaning--to be a guide to what they call a mercenary down in Cuba--someone who had fought against the revolution and had fought against him at the Bay of Pigs.

I kept trying to make conversation with him, but I could not get him to relax. I could not get him to ease up. At one point, he told me that he had a pain in the back, and I told him I had some Tylenol with me. He says, "No, no, I don't need Tylenol." And we kept on that way. And it was just a very cold relationship through the whole trip, until we got to a little town called San Blas. After we got to that town, I told him, "This is where I was fighting for three days," and he told me, "This is where I was fighting for three days also." We were both fighting against each other in San Blas for three days. We started comparing war stories. And all of a sudden, the ice completely melted and we started talking like two war companions, let's say. After we finished that conversation, I said, "Why don't you let me buy lunch?" He says, "Okay, buy me lunch, but also give me a Tylenol." And we started talking, and we became real friends, let's say.

People to people . . .

A people-to-people exchange. That's what it's all about, and it works. You break the ice. Then all of a sudden, you realize that everyone is just normal, and there's no need to hate anybody.
(snip/...)

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/elian/interviews/duran.html

[Judi Lynn]

130. Frontline interview w/ Lisandro Perez, who says Cubans support Cuba

~snip~
There are two experiences that change Cuban-Americans in terms of their political views. One is to have lived outside of Miami for an extended period of time--being exposed to other views on Cuba and other views on the world.

The other thing that can change your views if you're Cuban-American is to go to Cuba. Not because you come back thinking that the Castro government is great or anything like that--on the contrary. Like anything else, when you view reality firsthand, it's not black and white. You see that the reality is much more complex. You see Cuba as a real place where real people live and try to make their living and struggle in very difficult conditions. And you have a better appreciation for what should be the policy.
(snip)

A lot of people in Cuba do not want a leadership to come from Miami, for example, saying that they didn't like the process that started in 1959, because a lot of Cubans now in Cuba profited from that process. The Cuban exile leadership here has allowed the Cuban government to be the sole trustee of that historical revolution, which many Cubans fundamentally support. And therefore, that's part of the reason why I think the message of Cuban exiles is very faint in Cuba, because most people in Cuba view them as people who want to return Cuba to pre-1959. That's what the Castro government has told them, but the behavior of Cuban-Americans has reinforced that view.

I was in Cuba in January of this year. Although it probably is the case that a lot of the demonstrations on the streets in Cuba supporting the return of Elián are probably contrived by the government, I think there is a genuine feeling among people in Cuba that the child ought to be returned to his father. It's actually very insulting to tell people that the child cannot come back to live in a country where you live, and that somehow children in Cuba cannot have any kind of happy life or a normal life. I think that's insulting. A lot of people of different ideological persuasions are puzzled by the position of the Miami relatives, by the position of the Cuban exile community. This has genuinely allowed Fidel Castro, again, sort of another victory.
(snip/...)

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/elian/interviews/perez.html

[Mika]

133. Excellent series of posts, Judi Lynn.

:thumbsup: :thumbsup:

Great reading.

[Bacchus39]

152. those treacherous ladies in white

http://www.humanrightsfirst.org/defenders/hrd_cuba/hrd_cuba_blanco.htm

[Clutch Cargo]

165. These ladies are very brave

to stand up to the might of a brutal dictator. I just hope that they don't all of a sudden "disappear."

[Bacchus39]

166. yeah, picking on their husbands is OK but not little old ladies

I mean even Castro has some limits on oppression.

[manic expression]

178. How, exactly,

does Cuba "pick" on someone who receives support from an aggressive government for its aims (this is illegal in the US as well as Cuba)? It was certainly reasonable and justified to arrest those accepting US backing and funds.

[Bacchus39]

167. where does it say that the women did not apply for visa in time??

the article says the Cuban government will not let them know until December 30th.

[Bacchus39]

168. from the BBC

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/4527018.stm

unfortunately the Cuban government won't approve the visas in time for the ceremony. here is some more info.

maybe Castro will allow a delegation from the EU to present the women an award in Cuba as a demonstration of his deep committment to human rights.