Dean questioned about flag comment

[Khephra]

Dean questioned about flag comment
By JONATHAN ROOS
Register Staff Writer
11/04/2003
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Former Vermont Gov. Howard Dean, campaigning in the Des Moines area Monday, addressed lingering questions about his references to the Confederate flag.

During a mid-day meeting with Johnston High School students, the Democratic presidential candidate was asked about a recent comment that he wants to be the candidate "for guys with Confederate flags in their pickup trucks."

Dean said he has used the description to refer to working class, white Southerners who vote Republican when it's not in their interest to do so because of GOP policies such as tax cuts benefiting wealthy Americans.

"What Franklin Roosevelt did was to get the Southern white working class to vote with the Southern African-American working class," said Dean, about the former Democratic president.

"The only time we're ever going to make progress in this country is when black people and white people and brown people work together and put race aside."

MORE...................

http://desmoinesregister.com/news/stories/c4789004/22668055.html

I hate to post another Dean/Flag thread, but due to the overreaction that many of us in the Dean camp saw to remarks that he's made for months, I personally feel he deserves BN space for additional comments of his on the matter.

[Cocoa]

1. are there any white, working class Southerners

who DON'T display the Confederate flag?

If so, maybe that's who the dems should go after.

[veganwitch]

3. i would think so.

instead he made the assumption that all southerns are hick rednecks.

shooting from the hip isnt the best when your trying to be accurate.

[dave29]

25. no - you made that assumption

Dean did not say he wasn't going after all white southerners - he just happened to include a bunch of Republicans who have been shooting themselves in the foot for decades.

[NewYorkerfromMass]

19. Yes but not according to Dean. nt

[Name removed]

22. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[NewYorkerfromMass]

29. Tell it to Dean. nt

[Mississippi Liberal]

67. Every white, working class Southerner actively opposed to

the Confederate Flag is almost certainly already a democrat and probably an extremely liberal one who would never vote Repug. My experience (33+ years in North Mississippi) is that support for the Confederate flag falls into three main groups: (1) a small percentage of overt racists, (2) a somewhat larger percentage of people who haven't gotten over the Civil War and support the flag as a big FU to northerners, and (3) the largest group of people who simply see it as a symbol of modern Southern culture without any subtext. After all, Bo and Luke Duke weren't racists, and if the flag is okay prominently featured on a highly-rated tv show, then (the thinking goes) how can it be immoral to have it on the back of your truck.

I would guess that upwards of 90% of Ole Miss alumni have a rebel flag somewhere in their house. Hell, I've always been opposed to that flag and I've got one sewn on a quilt that my late grandmother made for me before she died (I keep it on quilt rack with the flag part tucked under but it's there.)

What Dean is trying to communicate (in spite of the best efforts of others to misrepresent his off-the-cuff remark) is that Southerners in the second two groups who historically vote Repug can be persuaded to go democratic if it's in their economic interests and if the democrats will stop treating them/us as subliterate crackers.

Three years ago, when we had a referendum to take the Confederate banner off the state flag, THIRTY PERCENT of African-Americans voted to keep the flag the way it was. You must admit, that's an astonishing show of support from African-Americans for a "racist symbol."

And one final point, if Dems continue to bash Dean over this incredibly silly point, I shudder to think how it will get spun in the South: "Well, the democraps finally had a guy who didn't want to take my guns and my Southern heritage, and then they got rid of him. I guess I was right to vote for the GOP all these years after all."

[Cocoa]

68. thanks for that perspective

I have spent very little time in the south personally.

For a long time I saw that flag as a benign symbol, that maybe some people saw it as abstractly representing slavery, but that on the ground it was accepted.

But recently I'm beginning to see that it really is a divisive symbol.

I agree that it's possible that making it an issue could cost some votes for the dems in the short term, but I see it as taking a leadership role there. The dem party could be an agent for social change, which I see as a good thing, and part of what they're supposed to be for, despite the risk.

[billbuckhead]

2. So working class white southerners all have Confederate flags on their tru

He keeps getting deeper and deeper into this faux paus. Why doesn't he admit he made a mistake? Hubris or a calculated attempt to embrace the flag?

[JNelson6563]

5. He was asked what he meant and he explained

Dean said he has used the description to refer to working class, white Southerners who vote Republican when it's not in their interest to do so because of GOP policies such as tax cuts benefiting wealthy Americans.

Obviously he was talking about the ones who voted Republican. Clearly enlightened working class, white Southerners who vote Dem don't sport confederate flags.

Julie

[Scott Lee]

7. Wooing Southern working class repubs is a "faux paus"?

Well then why don't you completely miss Dean's point and help the Dems diss the south again next election.

Say hello to four more years of President War.

Happy now?

[billbuckhead]

12. No,using a pickup truckwith a Confederate flag as a metaphor for working

class whites is bigoted, plain and simple. Furthermore while I can't speak for black people, his seeming embrace of the Confederate flag has to alienate them even further from his campaign. Dean is either clueless and/or very cynical, I think both. If a republican would have said this we would be all over him, even asking them to resign like Dean did Limbaugh for a similar gaffe.

[Eloriel]

10. Because he HASN'T made a mistake, BIll, that's why

And there's no broad brush as you and others are trying to claim.

Please try to tell me, you who live there in Buckhead (Atlanta), that there aren't plenty of good ol' boys who need to hear that their interests are NOT being served when they vote Republican.

Of COURSE not all Southerners have Confederate flag emblems on their vehicles. Only those who are working overtime to find things to criticize about Dean are going to try to read it that way.

And you know what frosts me the most about this? It's the DEMOCRATS who are playing wedge politics with their purposeful misreading and mischaracterization of what Dean said. To me, that's the most racist part of what's going on here, and it appalls me and breaks my heart.

Sheesh.

[sybylla]

21. Exactly, Eloriel

I can't agree with you more and am appalled by the devisiveness this comment has caused. I've read what Dean said over and over again and don't understand the party's and candidates willingness to misconstrue it. Apparently Dean has a few people scared. What the hell do we need repugs for when we so willingly eat our own. The focus should be ABB but instead everyone is infighting and the repugs are sitting back and putting their feet up.

Shame, shame, shame.

[NewYorkerfromMass]

30. Use a devisive stereotype and you get devisiveness

what's the big surprise?

[sybylla]

33. Where was the stereotype?

He said he thought it was important to convince the people who drive pickup with confederate flags that voting repug gets them no where. I see no stereotype here. I know plenty of people who drive pickup truck with confederate flags on them and I live in Wisconsin. I also know they tend to vote repug. These people exist, no stereotype here. Now if Dean said all poor white southerners drive around in pickup displaying confederate flags - that's stereotyping.

shame, shame, shame.

[NewYorkerfromMass]

42. He did say that they couldn't afford health insurance.

so I would think that means they are poor.
That they may also happen to drive around in a pickup displaying confederate flags indeed has nothing to do with that fact, but.... you wouldn't know it from listening to Howard Dean.

[loyalsister]

46. You're reaching

Here's how it works

If a person has a confederate flag on their truck, there is a good chance they vote Republican.
A person who has a confederate flag on their truck may need health insurance. They may have kids who need better schools. However, they are displaying a symbol indicating that if they do need those things, they are not voting in such a way that will help themselves secure it. Got it yet?????
Are these really the same people who claim that Kerry is unfairly chastised for an overly nuanced position on the war? Can they honestly be this incapable of following logic?

[NewYorkerfromMass]

51. and you are reaching mightily to defend this

indefensible stereotype.

[Sideways]

52. This Might Be The Stupidest Thing I've Ever Read On DU

You are implying (actually close to stating) that only poor people can't afford health insurance. You're kidding right? I mean really.

Do you have any fucking idea how many Americans are without health insurance? Even (especially) Americans who have good jobs but no benefits?

You are a clueless shit. I used to think you were just a silly rube now I fucking loathe you. To use this anaolgy as a means to bash Dean is just fucking beyond the beyond. You are an asshole.

And fucking clueless.

[NewYorkerfromMass]

53. thanks for showing how Dean's stupid remark can spiral downward

into the depths of... well I am sure your colorful vocabulary is much better than what my own rube-ish ignorance could offer, so pick your own.
The point IS that one thing has nothing to do with the other, and the fact is Dean is the clueless one.

[Oreegone]

54. What the hell is the big deal

Haven't any of you seen pickups with confederate flags on them??? Hell I see enough of them in Oregon to know there have to be more in the South...or has anyone been to the south lately? What is racist, bigoted or a faux pas about saying the working white republicans need to realize what side their bread is buttered on. This is taking Political correctness to a higher more disgusting height and to see Democrats do it is frankly revolting!!! Find a valid complaint. I am sick of the Great American ignorance about other Americans. Are you saying because lots of people drive pickups with Confederate flags on them they are not worthy of health care or what? I know liberal southerners who love their confederate flag, it s the one their ancestors fought for and they don't all view it as a white, black, slave non slave issue.

Go Dean !!!!

[billbuckhead]

35. You're out of touch, Buckhead is more like Beverly Hills than hillbillys

And Dean is out of touch as well.

[w4rma]

60. So, would you describe yourself, billbuckhead, as a limousine liberal?(nt)

[Ramsey]

11. That's not what he said

I'm surprised that so many people at DU cannot recognize an analogy. Dean never said all working class white Southerners fly the confederate flag. I don't think that comment was meant to be taken literally. He used this description as an analogy for those white working class southerners who vote Republican, against their own interests, because they perceive the Democratic Party as being hostile towards them. Judging from some of the blanket condemnations being bandied about here at DU (i.e, all southerners are racists, all people who have confederate flag stickers are white supremacists, etc.), that perception would seem somewhat justified.

Dean should probably find a less inflammatory analogy. Maybe something like "Nascar dads" would have sounded better (although many people probably don't know what that phrase means, it being a relatively recent demographic epithet). But his basic premise of appealing to white southern voters whose interests would be better represented by the Democratic Party is sound, and a much needed strategy for the Democratic Party. We shouldn't be so divided by pure geography in this country. There is far too much Us vs. Them attitude in American politics today, and I admire Dean for taking on the challenge of questioning the necessity for it.

Edited for typos

[wryter2000]

20. How about

How about "good, old boys"? That would get the point across without metioning the Confederate flag. :shrug:

[sybylla]

23. Sure, but good ole boys are everywhere.

Plus, its sexist and demeans men.

Dean was trying to make a point about the south, so good ole boys wouldn't cut it.

[Tansy_Gold]

26. Why didn't he just say what he meant, instead of relying on. . . .

. . . .inflammatory shorthand?

"I want to be the candidate for working class people everywhere -- in the north where so many manufacturing jobs have disappeared, in the south where so many mill jobs have disappeared, in the west and in the east. I want to be the candidate for people everywhere and of every color who vote Republican even when it's against their economic best interests."

I don't think anyone -- even the anti-Deaners on DU -- really think Dean is supportive of "Southern redneck good ol' boys who fly the rebel flag and screw themselves by voting Puke all the time." I think the problem is that his shoot-from-the-hip rhetoric sometimes allows him to be taken the wrong way.

I also think this is a problem the sound-byte media has exacerbated.

But what he said and what he meant or didn't mean has to be examined within the context of how many of those targeted voters he's going to bring into the Dem fold next November, WHETHER HE IS THE CANDIDATE OR NOT.

Just 2 cents of quasi wisdom from

Tansy Gold

[aldian159]

41. good pointy ramsey

Now, can someone please tell me why the flag has such a prominent place in the south. I live in Chicago, and the way I see it, the rebs are the biggest traitors in American history. Can someone please explain this to me, why the south loves the confederacy so? I it were me, I'd try to forget about that time period, instead of embracing it.

[dansolo]

64. It was also an allusion to the GOP "Southern Strategy"

Pickup trucks and confederate flags are exactly the types of symbols that the Republicans use to woo southern voters to vote against their own economic interests.

[Bandit]

4. Stereotyping will get you in trouble by everyone.

I agree with his intentions because I don't see any racism in it but when you stereotype anyone you are bound to overstep the bounds.

[Eloriel]

15. Oh, like there aren't millions (literally) of white male Southerners

who have Confederate flags on their pick-up trucks.

Ain't no "stereotyping" about it. It's the truth, reality, fact. Some of them are hardcore, full-out racist jerks who'll NEVER vote Democratic.

Some of them are not and will DEFINITELY hear a populist message that says, as Dean has said in many if not most of his stump speeches: "You know what? You've been voting GOP for decades now. What has it gotten you? Are there more jobs? Did you get a raise in the last 5 years? Do your children have good schools? What about healthcare?" See how much you have in common with African Americans? Let go of your racist vote and vote Dem for your own best interests too.

The only people who are using Dean's comments as racist are those in his own party who are using wedge politics (what USED TO BE what only the Republicans' did in the South). Shame on them all.

Eloriel

[tnlefty]

18. All I know is that I see LOTS of vehicles, not just pickups, driven by

both males and females with either a confederate sticker, a Bush*/Cheney sticker, a combination of these two, etc. Most of these vehicles look like a break down ready to happen and neither they nor the kids that they have with them look like they're fairing very well financially. I'm in the mood for whatever it takes to slap these people upside the head to get them to understand that they're not voting in their interests and they're f&*)%ng it up for the rest of us.

[deutsey]

6. Not that Dean is like RFK

but what he's saying about making the Democratic vision of American enticing to ALL Americans reminds me of RFK.

RFK was popular among Latinos, African Americans, anti-war activists, liberal Democrats, of course, but he also appealed to rural and poor whites, as well as veterans. I have a book of RFK speeches and in it there's something about how a rural farmer who didn't particularly like minorities still supported RFK. I don't have the book handy (I'm at work), but I've always been touched by that and frustrated by how the Dems have pretty much given up on this segment of the "GOP base".

[AP]

8. RFK probably wouldn't have said "I want to be the candidate for racists"

if he meant he wanted to be the candidate for the working class southern white male.

[deutsey]

9. And that's why I say Dean is no RFK

(far, far from it...and I'm a Dean supporter), but the sentiment behind his statement is the same thing that made Bobby such a strong Democratic candidate. I think Bobby would've beaten Nixon in '68 and I think Dean will beat Bush because he's genuinely interested in bringing a diversity of Americans together the way Bobby did (he's not only interested in doing it, he is doing it). In fact, that's the only way we're going to beat Bush. The same-ol' same-ol' dished out by the other candidates just ain't cutting it this time.

[unfrigginreal]

16. There you go, again

Calling all White Southerners, with a Confed Flag decal on their trucks, racists. And people wonder why Dems have been losing the South consistently and by ever widening margins.

Rascist is your word, not Deans.

[AP]

32. I see pickup trucks with confederate flags in my neighborhood

and I'm none to impressed with the politics of those people. On the other hand, I knows dozens of southerners who wouldn't be caught dead driving around with a confederate flag on their pick-up trucks. All of them vote democratic.

[unfrigginreal]

34. "I'm none to impressed with the politics of those people"

Well, you're doing a great job of reaching out to them. Keep calling them racists and I'm sure they'll come around eventually.

[AP]

37. Yeah. I reach out to racists on the issue of race, and when

I fight for the middle and working class on health care and schools, I don't draw the line and tell racists they can't participate.

When Dean says he wants to be the candidate for racists who need schools and health care, how wasn't he their candidate before? I've been the voter for those people. It's just that I've never been afraid to say that race matters, and to keep explaining how it does matter.

If Dean's saying that we should ignore race to reach these people, I say, hell no. There's much more to be gained by embracing race and explaining the connection between racism and rural poverty.

This is a battel the Democrats have been winning, thanks to politicians like Bill Clinton. Between '92-'00, the message that racism holds us all back got more traction than at any time since JFK really started making that argument in his second Oxford, Miss speach.

Now Dean seems to be saying that we have to reach out to confederate flag waivers by NOT talking about race (by talking about it in terms of anti-white male gender discrimination, and by calling concern about high black incarceration rates "liberal and weepy", and by, in 95, arguing that AA should take into account class, not race).

Those are all popular attitudes among libertarians. However, the democrats are winning the battle to change hearts and minds on the issue of race, and Dean is wrong about what he's implying.

[unfrigginreal]

39. You still insist on labeling all Confederate Flag supporters as racist.

YOU, are the one that's out of touch with reality. Are you even aware that MAJORITIES in most Southern states have voiced support for that flag. Do you REALLY believe that those majorities are all racists?

You need to get a clue, your brand of liberalism, race baiting, has been a "miserable failure". I hope our party will eventually come to see that.

[AP]

40. What the Democrats have been doing has worked....

Do you know that every Dem candidate is respecting the SC boycott which is BECAUSE of the confederate flag?

Do you know that some were out front on this issue. Dean hesitated.

When Dean was talking about flags on the back of pickup trucks, he wasn't talking about some vauge, state's rights sort of issue. It's code for talking about people who are hostile to issues relating to race, regardless of whether there are some people with confederate flags who are liberal on issues of race.

Other Democrats have worked hard to build bridges on the issue of race, and Dean is tearing them down when he talks about being the candidate "for" racists, without asking them to think about the issue of race.

[unfrigginreal]

45. There's a difference between being critical of the flag...

and calling it's supporters racist. You are doing the latter and if you think that's the best way to bring folks to your POV, then more power to you. No reason to think that your approach could widen the racial divide in this country, right?

[AP]

50. Honestly, what percentage of people with confed flag stickers

on their cars have enlightened views abour race?

What percentage?

When a politician refers to confed flag waivers, I think it's code for describing the kind of person a majority of confed flag waivers are. They're not saying that, well, 20% have enlightened views about race, and I'm talking about them.

[unfrigginreal]

56. Now who's doing the stereotyping?

You're ready to call all of these folks racist because a certain percentage surely is. Maybe we should stop courting Christians too since a percentage of them are fundamentalists. Or how about we stop courting males since a certain percentage are muderers?

Dean is correct to try to bridge the gap that has formed in the South between blue collar whites and the Democratic party.

[screembloodymurder]

59. 50% to

60%

[AP]

65. You really think that 50-60 percent of people with confederate flags

on their cars wouldn't realize the implication of driving that car into a black neighborhood to pick up their black friends, and wouldn't feel the least bit weird about driving around with their black friends in that car?

Would you think they're oblivious to the implication, or what?

[kicknitup]

66. I Disagree

I live in Kentucky (rural) and the people I know who voted for Bush and recently for Fletcher wouldn't dare fly the Rebel Flag (they would consider it "redneck". They only people I see flying that flag are teenage boys.

You all just don't get it with the south. People voting Republican has more to do with abortion and gay rights than it ever will with race.

[ima_sinnic]

17. oh give it a rest

Dean in no way said "I want to be the candidate for racists." As you well know, not all good ole boys who display the confederate flag on their pickup are racists. Also as you very well know, he was just speaking metaphorically. Purposeful slanting of what he said and meant is a dumb and immature trick. It doesn't matter how many explanations are posted, you and your buddies continue with this stupid crap--faking outrage over something that doesn't even exist. The man is doing an excellent job of including EVERYBODY in the Democratic camp. Gephardt and Kerry have already indicated they don't need EVERYBODY'S votes, only those who pass their "elite liberal acceptability" test, so we can chalk up the Southern vote as a lost cause for them right now.

Oh and by the way, as you also know, Dean has been using this example of inclusiveness in his stump speeches for quite some time now. The only flap I've seen about it is right here at the phony "compassionate liberal" DU web site.

[Mississippi Liberal]

24. Oh for Pete's Sake!

I'm one of the poor, put-upon Mississippians who have spent the last 15 years working to get the Rebel Flag out of Ole Miss football games,and even I don't subscribe to the idea that _everyone_ who supports the flag is a racist. The flag is only one of many ways the neocons get us to waste too much energy on symbols instead of substance.

[aldian159]

43. yeah, we just surrender the south

instead of trying to change minds. Not good at all

[Rose Siding]

13. The "gotchas" never seem to get him

This article lays out some of how the media fed on the subject.

snip>
So why has the Dean comment proved to be so controversial? Good question. It has something to do with the desperation of the other candidates, who have had a hard time keeping up with the former Vermont governor's fund-raising juggernaut and highly effective grass-roots campaign. But, in truth, it has a lot more to do with the media.

Too many political reporters practice stenography to power. They simply take down what candidates have to say. This week, the other candidates are trying to paint Dean as the reincarnation of Jefferson Davis, and the media are dutifully reporting it.

More responsible and engaged media would stop to ask the deeper questions: Why do so many white working-class males vote against their own economic interests? Is it because they are racists who really do embrace the Confederacy's legacy? Is it because the Democratic Party has so abandoned populist economic messages that even voters in what were once traditional Democratic constituencies have lost faith in the party and its candidates? The answers to these questions are complicated; but they are at the core of any serious examination of our politics.

Unfortunately, most politicians are unwilling to engage in real discussions about race and economics, let alone the complex zones in which they intersect. And as the current controversy illustrates, most political reporters have lost the inclination, and perhaps even the ability, to demand better of the politicians.

http://www.madison.com/captimes/opinion/column/nichols/60451.php

[sybylla]

28. Jon Nichols tells it like it is - again.

Thanks for that. I'm always glad to be in his company.

[helleborient]

14. I would suppose Gephardt and Edwards have both won election...

By appealing to at least some of the people who would have Confederate flags on their trucks...and that's a good thing. They were votes that didn't go to their Republican opponents.

The most effective way in the long term to change attitudes is to include people not to ostracize them.

Howard Dean did not say he believed more people should have Confederate flags on their trucks...he simply said he believed that those who do have reasons to vote for him...namely that most of them aren't wealthy and would benefit from better healthcare and education that a Democratic candidate could bring.

[Rowdyboy]

27. It's nonsense to make a big deal out of this...

literally grasping at straws. I've read these quotes from Dean for weeks now and no one has said a word. Now everyone is all bent out of shape over a poor analogy. I agree with an earlier poster: Sheesh

[KansDem]

31. Who questioned him?

I'd like to know if it was a "journalist." During sElection2000 when many stories were flying about regarding GW Bush's cocaine arrest, AWOL status, drug abuse, business dealings, etc., no reporters felt a need to "question" him. Bush was given a free pass by the Whoreth Estate.

So if "reporters" have suddenly found a need to "question" Howard Dean, or any other Democratic candidate, then I say :finger: *

You lost your credibility!

*or I would say it if we still had it

[nickgutierrez]

36. There are serious questions that need to be raised

about the news media's competence in general. Not a single challenge of Bush's Iraq war claims at the time that he was making them, but here's a nebulous quote by Howard Dean that seems to suggest that he doesn't automatically assume that the Confederate flag = racist, and they're jumping all over him.

[billbuckhead]

38. There are few Confederate flags on trucks down here let alone millions

and almost none in Buckhead. Hell, there's more Mexican flags on trucks in Buckhead. Having a truck with a Confederate flag in the city of Atlanta would be inviting vandalism. No wonder national Dems are losing here, they have no idea who lives here.

[dolstein]

44. Sorry, but Howard Dean doesn't know his history

FDR did NOT get working class whites and working class blacks in the South to vote togetherl, for the simple reason that blacks did not vote in substantial numbers in the South until the mid 60's, after the poll tax had been abolished and the Voting Rights Act was enacted.

It bothers be that Howard Dean is oblivious to the fact that blacks were virtually disenfranched in the South during FDR's time in office, and that FDR did very little to advance the cause of civil rights. The first Democratic president who really stuck his neck out for civil rights was Harry Truman, who desegregated the military against the wishes of the generals and who ran on a platform in 1948 that contained Hubert Humphrey's liberal civil rights plank. For his efforts, he was rewarded with a Dixiecrat revolt which cost him four states in the Deep South.

[helleborient]

47. Why didn't you or other Democrats question him when he said it last...

February?

And why did the DNC leadership cheer?

After all, his comments were made originally directly in the wake of the Trent Lott flap.

I'm so confused why it is such a big issue now and it was worthy of cheering then.

[billbuckhead]

48. It's big issue because it makes him even more unelectable

and unworthy of being our candidate. A national politician who says he wants to be the candidate of those who honor the Confederate flag is unacceptable. Kids of white supremicist movements need healthcare too, maybe needs to say he is the candidate of those with nazi flags in their closets as well.

[dolstein]

49. Actually, I HAVE pointed this out before

But what's your point? Is there some statute of limitations on pointing out the innaccuracies of Howard Dean's statements? Are you suggesting that his statements would be any less untrue if someone failed to point it out at the first time he said them?

Personally, I have no problem with Dean trying to attract support among whites in the South, although I don't think his current approach is likely to work. My problem is with his ignorance of Southern political history.

[w4rma]

55. FDR received ~65% of the black vote in 1940.

FDR was INITALLY elected with only ~23% of the black vote in 1932, he increased that percentage significantly through his immensely popular and successful New Deal and received ~65% of the black vote in 1940.

Behind the Backlash
White Working-Class Politics in Baltimore, 1940-1980
http://uncpress.unc.edu/chapters/durr_behind.html

[Chomskyite]

63. Disingenuous, as Rush would say

Those Southern blacks who did courageously vote in the South in the 30s DID voted with the Southern working classes. The same was true of Truman in 48 and to a more limited degree Johnson in 64.

Carter and Clinton also managed to peel off some Southern states, didn't they?

As for your comment that FDR did very little for the cause of Civil Rights, I can't disagree. He was holding a coalition together as best he could and placated some rotten SOB racist Dems to keep them pissing outside his tent rather than inside it.

[Demonaut]

57. Dean's an idiot

Dean's an idiot journalist's dream....How possibly could these words be misconstrued, or taken out of context...Why the fuck do the Democratic nominees take cheap shots at each other..Goddamn Lieberman needs to pull his head out of his ass and get a good look at the issues that concern real Democrats. Screw Lieberman! He's repug lite. PLEASE DROP OUT LIEBERMAN, YOU'RE SOURING THE WHOLE DEBATE PROCESS

[screembloodymurder]

58. I thought he held up well

CNN is doing everything possible to discredit the Dems. Host is openly hostile. I would walk out.

[jeanmarc]

61. Attempt at Queen Latifah moment

It's pretty obvious what Dean tried. At worst it's a failed trial balloon to gain some Southern support, and at best, it helps his reputation as that 'New England Doctor' in the South.

The last Dems to have done well for the Presidency campaigned well in the South. While I think he should have left that flag out of it, I think of it as a rather clumsy attempt to gain that vote.

Bob Jones this isn't.

[Chomskyite]

62. It's a tactical mistake

Dean gave his opponents a sword. His heart is in the right place. The strategy to appeal to voters who may be more likely to display that flag shouldn't have been stated THAT way, but in another way, perhaps with a symbol not associated with race.

Bubbas was the way the Clinton campaign referred to this same demographic group, as I recall. Good ol' boy is probably too demeaning. Guys with gunracks in their trucks might have been better. I dunno.