Jail 'Possibility' for NYC Transit Leaders

[leftchick]

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/nyc_transit_strike

NEW YORK - The city and state stepped up their pressure on striking transit workers Wednesday in hopes of forcing them back to work, and a judge said sending union leaders to jail was a "distinct possibility."

State Supreme Court Justice Theodore Jones, who is hearing several legal issues related to the strike, directed attorneys from the Transport Workers Union to bring president Roger Toussaint and other top officials before the court Thursday to answer to a criminal contempt charge. He said he may sentence the union leaders to jail for refusing to end the strike, calling such a scenario a "distinct possibility."

Union lawyer Arthur Schwartz said Toussaint and the other officials are in negotiations with mediators and that hauling them into court could halt the talks.

The possibility of jail time for union leaders was one of several developments Wednesday as millions of New Yorkers trudged to work in another bone-chilling commute without subways and buses.

[MadAsHellNewYorker]

1. Fuck this! I supported the strikers before,

and if they start to jail them, Ill support them EVEN MORE. this is ludicrious.

:grr:

[wakeme2008]

2. Plus attacking the workers

Michael A. Cardozo, New York City's corporation counsel, asked the judge to issue an order directing union members to return to work. If the order is granted, Cardozo said, the city could ask for $25,000-a-day fines per worker — a punishment that goes beyond the docked-pay penalty that workers already are experiencing for the illegal strike.

[bpilgrim]

3. any fines should be put on the list of grievances

toe-2-toe

peace

[LostinVA]

4. Any time for the "strikers are evil and suck and I don't make

as much money as them so they should suffer and the hell with rights just jail them because all these poor workers are being screwed by the evil TWU" posts.

[Walt Starr]

5. The leaders should immediately break off talks

and leave the country until such a time as the state officials take jail time and fines off the table.

[gratuitous]

6. Why don't they just gun them down in the streets?

{Uncomfortable silence that stretches on for wa-a-a-a-ay too long}

"Naaaahhh."

But the union-busting goons of the bad old days can't be too far off, methinks.

[Sequoia]

13. Take a trip with me in 1913 to Calument, Michigan

Take a trip with me in 1913,
To Calumet, Michigan, in the copper country.
I will take you to a place called Italian Hall,
Where the miners are having their big Christmas ball.
I will take you in a door and up a high stairs,
Singing and dancing is heard everywhere,
I will let you shake hands with the people you see,
And watch the kids dance around the big Christmas tree.

You ask about work and you ask about pay,
They'll tell you they make less than a dollar a day,
Working the copper claims, risking their lives,
So it's fun to spend Christmas with children and wives.

There's talking and laughing and songs in the air,
And the spirit of Christmas is there everywhere,
Before you know it you're friends with us all,
And you're dancing around and around in the hall.

Well a little girl sits down by the Christmas tree lights,
To play the piano so you gotta keep quiet,
To hear all this fun you would not realize,
That the copper boss' thug men are milling outside.

The copper boss' thugs stuck their heads in the door,
One of them yelled and he screamed, "there's a fire,"
A lady she hollered, "there's no such a thing.
Keep on with your party, there's no such thing."

A few people rushed and it was only a few,
"It's just the thugs and the scabs fooling you,"
A man grabbed his daughter and carried her down,
But the thugs held the door and he could not get out.

And then others followed, a hundred or more,
But most everybody remained on the floor,
The gun thugs they laughed at their murderous joke,
While the children were smothered on the stairs by the door.

Such a terrible sight I never did see,
We carried our children back up to their tree,
The scabs outside still laughed at their spree,
And the children that died there were seventy-three.

The piano played a slow funeral tune,
And the town was lit up by a cold Christmas moon,
The parents they cried and the miners they moaned,
"See what your greed for money has done."


Woody Guthrie

[Zensea]

7. and fine each worker $25,000 --- grrrrrr.

I don't know how they think that can fly.
Essentially they're threatening to bankrupt each worker - something I think would get thrown out down the line so it is just a strong arming attempt as far as I can tell.

[chelsea0011]

8. Jail the working class. What bulls&it! How many pols pay anything

into their health insurance? When I see the crooked pols give up benefits, hell would have frozen over. Power to the people.:yourock:

[CreekDog]

9. Is the strike against the law or not?

Is the law fair, perhaps it's not, but that's not the point. Has the union argued that the law is unconsitutional or something like that?

Many civil servants cannot strike because of similar laws, such as the ones in San Francisco and ones that apply to Federal workers.

[BlueInPhilly]

10. I'm NOT with the TWU on this one

C'mon, they make so much more money than a lot of NY workers, they get free transportation - that alone can amount to at least $100/mont- they don't pay towards their health insurance. I lived in NYC and if I were there, I'd be pissed. The strike is illegal, there is a law against it, they walked off their job anyway. Plain and simple. When I first saw Roger Doussant on TV, I told myself that he would not have the best interest of the workers or the commuters - I don't know, just a feeling, I guess. He seemed gung-ho from the beginning to go on strike. He and the MTA folks can have a pissing match, but in the end, the commuters who rely on the subway and buses are the ones who get squeezed in the middle.

Just my $0.02.

[Binka]

12. The Name Is Roger Toussaint Not Doussant Your 2 Cents Are Now 1 Cent

If you want to argue your opinion you might want to get the name correct. And BTW your "just a feeling" about Roger Toussaint isn't something to base an argument on. Just sayin.

[LostinVA]

15. Who cares how much money they like?

WHY would any worker begrudge another worker any money or benefits? Why??? It's a retirement age issue, not a money issue, and good for them! They are protecting new hires, not themselves. Unions have been broken so badly in this country, it's sickening. Little by little labor rights have been erode the last 25 years... remember the overtime thing last year? The average bus driver makes more than twice what I do, and I have a Master's. But you know what? GOOD FOR THEM! They'll be retired at 55 years while I'm still working at 70... GOOD FOR THEM!

If you are not pro union/labor, you are not a liberal, period.

This strike is fair and done with rational purpose and reasoning.

And, just because there is a law doesn';t mean that law is just or Constitutional. Lots of laws that have said/say alot of unconstitutional things. It is their RIGHT to strike.

And, the TWU marched with us in DC. They rock. GO TWU!

SOLIDARITY! SOLIDARITY! SOLIDARITY!

[Rich Hunt]

18. AMEN

The implication in those arguments is, of course, that NO ONE outside of corporate America should make a good living.

They've been trotting out that 'they make too much money' line against union labor for decades.
I remember growing up, hearing it about steelworkers - well, how dare they!

The real reason is because the ruling class doesn't want the working class to be secure and educated.

I used to think that was a simplistic construction, but after all that's happened to me on account of
corporate America, I can see that it is no 'conspiracy theory'. They really do hate the unions. They've
been brainwashed since birth with stuff like, 'FDR was a socialist', etc.

They're the same people who have been driving the USA toward fascism, and if you dig deep
enough, you'll find ties to the racist far right. You CANNOT give them any leeway. It's us
or them.

[0007]

31. Please back up your claims . Why should I take your word

or opinion about anything when you don't show transparency.

[robbedvoter]

36. Geez, I wonder what aspect of his appearance made you distrust him?

[DarbyUSMC]

39. I'll put my 2 cents in and raise you 2. My opinion is based on what

I've observed; I don't have a fact sheet in front of me. I'm not against unions or anyone getting fair wages and benefits. When so many in our country have lost their jobs, been down-sized, had to take much lower paying jobs, or lost their 401K's how do people have the balls to complain about new hires having to contribute to their own pension plan? Six percent for ten years. It's presently two percent. Were I in their shoes, I'd be sayin' thanks to the fates that I am secure and my pension is safe and I have insurance. I don't even know anyone personally who doesn't contribute to their pension plan. Supposedly this is the only issue that sent them out on strike. Just as an aside ---- who the heck retires at fifty-five? Nine times out of ten military people start another career when they retire out. Maybe folks in NYC need to retire younger and I can understand that but what makes this group of workers so much more worthy than those who have taken pay cuts to keep their companies afloat? What does New York, NY mean to these people? They're killing it and not softly. What happened to that New York City spirit and pride after losing the twin towers? This isn't the time to stand up on a table with a sign that says "STRIKE". Norma Rae had a list of reasons a mile long. That was a long time ago. Who deserves $23 an hour as some workers in Ohio were getting before their company went belly up. $23 an hour for putting one piece of plastic on something coming down the line. We've had it good and now we are paying the piper for being a little too greedy. We stepped over the line just a wee bit and now we are out of luck because companies are closing instead of meeting 'demands'. We are surprised that so many young people have no work ethic? If common sense prevailed and fairness was our guide, all sides would be satisfied.

[nodehopper]

42. Many labor disputes are about pensions

and a lot of the time that's due to voting/clout by older, retired members of the union looking out for themselves. In this case the union is trying to not screw new and future members with these contracts, which I think is really commendable.

They do get more money than some other NY workers, but their jobs are also harder and fraught with more health benefits. They work underground for years and years; that is a cumulative hardship on the human body.

[meow2u3]

35. The strike may be illegal, but the fines are unconstitutional

What part of the 8th Amendment don't those repunks understand?

A fine of $1M per day is excessive. The real reason the union is being fined such an exorbitant amount is to enable Bloomie to intimidate the workers into accepting a watered-down contract that puts their pensions at risk.
That out-of-touch billionaire bastard! Why doesn't the judge force him to empty his deep pockets and pay the workers?! :grr:

[noonwitch]

11. I'm in a union with a "no strike" agreement

Most government employees, except teachers, of course, are forbidden by law to strike. The employer is free to hire scabs to replace them and never hire them back. Every public employee is aware of this.

My coworkers and I have gotten screwed by dem leaders and GOP ones. We still have not resorted to a strike because we are committed to the work that we do. CPS can't go on strike-children would be at risk. Prison guards can't go on strike, the public would be at major risk. Same with the police and fire departments, and public transportation workers. When you are employed in that capacity, you understand this.

I think it's irresponsible for the transit workers to go on strike. They are public servants and I'll bet they make more money than I make as a social worker with a college degree.

Incidentally, we took concessions a couple of years ago to keep the state from going bankrupt. We were given back what was taken away (in cash-we got extra vacation hours in lieu of pay for 4 hours every two weeks) a few weeks ago. It was hard, but it also averted a bunch of layoffs and worse.

[NashVegas]

14. Here's a Question

Without the possibility of a strike, what leverage does a union have?

[LostinVA]

17. None -- it's like that in VA

State employees (ANY, not just "safety" workers) are allowed to unionize.... but: workers can't strike, collective bargain, etc. Big frigging deal. This is so unconstitutional it makes me sick.

[MercutioATC]

26. Public reaction...that's all.

If the public (or users) get pissed and are a powerful enough lobby, the union can use that. Otherwise, they really have NO leverage.

My union (NATCA) is currently in its 6th month of contentious contract negotiations with the FAA (our contract actually expired on September 30th). Air traffic controllers and strikes are historically a bad idea, so we really have very limited leverage aside from pressure exerted by the public and the users.

Thankfully, both groups have been helpful. However, this is a Bush administration we're talking about. The FAA is looking for 30% pay cuts, split shifts (work from 9am till 12pm, take two hours off...unpaid...and come back to work from 2pm till 7pm), benefit cuts, etc. It's going to be an interesting year...

[LostinVA]

16. You didn't get back what you had taken away, btw

And you, cops, nurses, etc. should ALL strike for more money -- there are ways to do a "rolling strike" so the necessities are covered. It's been done before.

[PassingFair]

19. Hang On! Stand together...

Remember THESE guys?



We've gotta start taking a stand SOMEWHERE.
I stand with the Union.

[CreekDog]

20. I am liberal, but I don't like this strike

In this case, with the law against them, I don't think they should strike.

Also the PR is turning out to be a disaster for the union.

As a onetime Executive Board member of my union chapter, I couldn't have recommended a strike in good conscience to our members without explaining the serious consequences involved. You've got to wonder if that was done.

Of course, with the law against the strike, I question any strike recommendation by the local's leaders in the first place. You can have people with bad judgement leading your country, and you can have people with bad judgement in charge of your local, sorry folks, but it's true.

=======

http://sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?file=/news/archive/2005/12/21/national/a111433S07.DTL

The International TWU, the union's parent, had urged the local not to go on strike. Its president, Michael O'Brien, reiterated Tuesday that the striking workers were legally obligated to resume working. The only way to a contract, he said, is "not by strike but continued negotiation."

[PassingFair]

21. How long have they been working...

without a contract?

My mother struck when it was illegal, as a school teacher, to do so.
I distinctly remember it in the 70's.
It was necessary.

[RazorNY22]

22. This strike is WRONG!!

There's a common sense reason behind the Taylor law. The impact of a strike by public sector workers is huge. I am a 23 year union member but I cannot strike (NYPD).

These workers have only been without a contract since Friday. I've been without a contract since February 2004. When my contract is finally settled I will get a nice retroactive payment. There was no immediate need to strike. Especially during the Holidays. It took me 3 hours to get home today.

The MTA gave in to most of the unions demands on Monday night, specifically no retirement at 62 years, it stayed at 55 years.

There are a dozen other actions the union could have taken such as a sick out, or slow down, or "go by the book" slow down.

Just because this union didn't get what it wanted they screwed every New Yorker. The elderly, school kids, everybody is effected.

Sorry TWU I'm not with you on this one.

[rug]

24. And when the judge says jail them you will arrest them.

[MercutioATC]

27. He'll do his job.

Reluctantly, perhaps, but that's what he HAS to do.

There's no need to get personal with this.

[rug]

29. Few things are more personal than a strike.

Except of course getting arrested for striking.

[MercutioATC]

32. Unless you're a NYT worker, it's not personal to YOU.

...and even if you were, a cop still has to do his job. By striking illegaly, you'd be choosing to open up the possibility of being arrested.

Attacking a cop on a discussion forum for doing his job is just classless, IMO.


As a general statement, I fully support my union bretheren in this matter. They may have subjected themselves to unpleasant consequences, but I support their right to make that decision and strike.

[stepnw1f]

25. Now No One Will Have the Right to Strike

Now we are an absolute fascist state. Congratulations for selling-out for sake of convenience.

Bow to your masters.

[CTLawGuy]

34. so, because he believes that the TWU should have taken the

legal avenues available, at least before striking, he is a sell out?

A strike should be a last resort, not a first resort. If the TWU had gone through the remedies available and had still gotten screwed, I would support their strike as a last resort.

But they are not making friends by doing this.

[cmdrzog]

23. I like this strike

The management is attempting to create a second class of worker w/o the benefit of pensions; a divide and conquer tactic designed to erode and eventually destroy the union. I applaud the courage of the transportation workers to strike for the survival of their union and as an example to other unions of what must be done to stem the anti labor borgs.

[Lars39]

28. Welcome to DU, cmdrzog!

:toast:

[cmdrzog]

33. thanks for the welcome

I've been here a while. Discussing the transit strike w/ people is a great way to reveal core values quickly. It is surprising how many will dismiss the worthiness of those whose work makes their lives possible.

[Lars39]

38. Glad you stopped lurking and decided to post.

You're so right about core values being revealed. I've had a few surprises over this, too. :)

[robbedvoter]

30. Koch yesterday: "Don't arrest them, you make martyrs" - the most chilling

statement of the tools in this sad story - typical dictatorship BS.
The MTA came with the pensions demand in the last minute - their purpose here is not to compromise but to conquesr (make this Bloomberg, Pataki). They are talking about them as if they are terrorists ("bringing us to our knees"...). Bloomberg also couldn't remember anyone in history hurting NY-ers so much (W could remind him his favorite 3 numbers: "911")

[Fovea]

37. If you want a progressive agenda for America

It starts with supporting labor.
Without organized labor, the middle class is dead.
It is really that simple.

[Endangered Specie]

40. ummm, how are they supposed to go to work...

if they are in PRISON?!

Bloomberg is either stupid or bluffing.

[NYC Liberal]

41. The LEADERS, not all the workers.

[CreekDog]

43. This ill-timed strike could worsen it for MTA workers

Anyone realize that if they struck without enough public support and with legal issues complicating matters, they could get pushed into a corner and be forced to accept a bad deal, one that during "negotiations" simply would have meant no deal. Now the stakes are much higher and TWU Local doesn't have the upper hand.