Florida student sues over Pledge of Allegiance

[Thom Little]

A high school junior has sued the Palm Beach County School Board, claiming he was ridiculed and punished for refusing to stand during the Pledge of Allegiance.

Cameron Frazier, with the support of the American Civil Liberties Union, is challenging the school district and Florida law that require students to show written permission from their parents before declining to recite the pledge.

Teacher Cynthia Alexandre called the 17-year-old student "so ungrateful and so un-American" after he twice refused to stand for the pledge in Alexandre's classroom Nov. 8, according to a federal lawsuit filed Thursday.

Frazier was then removed from the classroom. He is seeking unspecified damages and legal fees.

"Patriotism is more than going along with everybody else and just saluting a flag. It's about things like supporting our troops during the holidays and helping hurricane victims," Frazier said in a statement provided by the ACLU.


http://hosted.ap.org/dynamic/stories/F/FL_PLEDGE_LAWSUIT_FLOL-?SITE=VARIT&SECTION=US&TEMPLATE=DEFAULT&CTIME=2005-12-22-22-41-30

[jeff30997]

1. "so ungrateful and so un-American"

Jo McCarthy must be laughing like crazy in hell.

[DarkTirade]

2. Every time a case like this involving student rights

gets to a higher court, the student ends up winning. Why? Because schools treat students like they have NO rights, when they do. Plain and simple.

[and-justice-for-all]

3. Excuse me...

last I checked we didnt live in fucking Iran....If he does want to say the Pledge of Allegiance, he does have to for fucks sake. I dont pray or bow my head for "silences", Funerals, weddings so maybe I need stoned to death! Why do those punks care what he does??

If I could tell Mr. Frazier one thing it would be to tell those wack jobs "to kiss your ass and fuck off!"

[Catch22Dem]

4. YEAH!

Well said :toast:

[Danmel]

5. Tinker vs. Des Moines

http://www.law.umkc.edu/faculty/projects/ftrials/conlaw/studentspeech.htm

Students do not shed their rights at the school house gates.

[LizW]

6. I wonder if Tinker will be overruled

in the current hyper-patriotic climate of our country.

:(

[Straight Shooter]

7. Why are they even reciting the Pledge of Allegiance to begin with?

High school students parroting the indoctrination pledge. While all around them in their country, plenty of signs to show that loyalty to the U.S. is a one-way street.

I'll pledge allegiance when there's a national healthcare program and I don't have to go out and see poor children with their teeth rotting in their mouth, or read stories in the news about people dying from lack of healthcare or having to choose between food and medicine. Yeah, I'll pledge allegiance then to a country which puts its money where its mouth is.

Land of the free. What a joke. Land of the intimidated and suppressed is what they're striving for.

[proud2BlibKansan]

10. It's a law in Missouri

Kids in school have to say it at least once a week.

[Atmashine]

13. Really...

I don't remember being required to say it in high school 10 years ago. Except during auditorium meetings.

[proud2BlibKansan]

17. It's been a law less than 5 years now.

I believe it was passed post 9/11.

[LostinVA]

22. I thought the Supremes said one didn't have to say the Pledge?

They would be expelling me in MO...

[Ilsa]

19. I think it is in Tx also. Unless they have a permission slip, children

are required to be grateful and patriotic, or to hell with them.

[LostinVA]

11. I would go so far as to say it is unamerican and undemocratic

[1monster]

8. In the Florida schools in which I sub, the pledge usually follows the

playing of The Star-Spangled Banner over the intercom or on the morning school news.

I personally don't like the pledge and rarely recite it. However, I do ask the students to rise for the National Anthem.

I don't demand it. However, I preface my request with an explanation of the awards ceremonies at the Olympics. I tell the students that when the National Anthem of the gold metal winner is played, everyone stands, even those who are not citizens of whatever countries Anthem is playing, up to show respect to the gold metal winner and to his/her country. I tell the students that it is merely good manners and it shows repsect to those who find this little morning ritual important.

I would point out, though, that many students who do not take part in the pledge or Anthem do not sit quietly, showing respect to their fellow students. Quite often they will talk loudly, engage in misbehaviors, or make a mockery of the ritual.

Managing a classroom is not an easy job.

I think the teacher is wrong to insit that the student participate and to call him "ungrateful" and "unamerican", but for every wrongheaded teacher who tries to enforce "patariatism" there are pleny more who just want the students to show some good manners.

[proud2BlibKansan]

9. Is he a Jehova?

Would this teacher call the Jehovas ungrateful and un-American?

[Schema Thing]

14. As an ex-jehova(h)

I can tell you that we were/are indeed quite ungrateful and un-American.

However, that doesn't mean anyone should be forced to say the pledge of allegiance, and the Supreme Court ruled that way for Jehovahs Witnesses many years ago.

Interestingly, I spoke just last week with a young woman who was taking heat for standing respectfully during, but not reciting, the pledge. This was also unrelated to religion (as is I assume the case mentioned in this news article, due to comments the kid said about supporting the troops; no JW would ever say that). Maybe Americas youth are pushing back against the tide of right wing patriotic fervor that has just about drowned our country.

[proud2BlibKansan]

16. The Jehovas I have known are very respectful and

don't seem to be the type to raise a fuss.

[Schema Thing]

20. Yes, they tend to be that

They are quite obsessed with "not bringing reproach on Jehovah's name".

[ninkasi]

12. I think the student understands a lot more than the teacher

Statement by student "Patriotism is more than going along with everybody else and just saluting a flag. It's about things like supporting our troops during the holidays and helping hurricane victims," Frazier said in a statement provided by the ACLU.

Obviously, the student understands that patriotism is a lot more than just automatic responses, or phrases. Helping hurricane victims strikes me as showing a lot more love for your country and your fellow citizens than going along with mumbling words, then not following up by actions.

[Selatius]

15. I know this boy will win his suit. No way he can't lose

The spirit of resistance against this kind of coercive authority must not be extinguished.

[pagandem4justice]

18. Teaching, pledging, loopholes, and institutional fascism

State law says the pledge needs to be recited at the beginning of the day at all elementary, middle and high schools. A student must stand for the pledge even if he is exempt from reciting it with a written request from a parent, Harrington said.

We have the same law here in Texas (funny how FL and TX are usually tied at the hip that way, hmm?). Students must have written parental permission to refrain from reciting the pledges (to the U.S. and TX flags) and/or participating in the "minute of silence" required every day. As a public school teacher, I am required to enforce this, and to manage the classroom during the period so that participating students are not disturbed. But I have not complied for the most part, as I will not participate in enforcing what I consider an unconstitutional law.

I do not say the pledges, for a few different personal reasons. I stand during the recitation at "parade rest," hands behind my back. Most of my fifth graders say the pledges, but a few merely do the hand gestures and wait it out, out of boredom rather than objection. I do require silence throughout the morning announcements, from the national anthem to sign-off, so noise isn't an issue. Last year, I had a student who told me that he did not agree with the pledges, and would not say them. He told me this quietly, shyly, at my desk. I simply said that I respected his decision, and that I expected him to follow our procedure of remaining silent and respectful. It was not an issue. I did not ask him for parental permission -- lawmakers damn well know that this clause is meant to intimidate youths who are trying to think for themselves, often against the mores of their parents.

Good for this student, who is well-informed enough, and gutsy enough, to stand up for his rights. He certainly has legal standing to bring the suit, and I hope that the district is stupid enough to fight it, so that the case gains a little more publicity before he wins ... because he will win.

"You cannot be disruptive during that time or any other time," Harrington said.

Ahh, yes, "disruptive." That, for those who don't know, is EduSpeak for, "We can make you do whatever we want, regardless of your rights." This is because they define "disruption" as anything that makes another student look up or take notice. Tattoos? Disruptive, beause other students will want to see it, rather than be good robots. Long hair or earrings on boys? Same. Different political views? Same. If they say that it affects the school environment, then (they state) it overrules that individual student's freedom of speech or expression.

It's a bit similar to the loophole for employers, that if they can't fire you for disagreeing with them, for refusing to do something illegal, for whistleblowing, for refusing to be harrassed, they can fire you for "insubordination." It's an insidious, institutional fascism.

Maybe that's why so many Americans are innoculated against the government's slow encroachent on our freedoms ... they have become quite used to it, through their years of indoctrination at the hands of the public schools, employers, and churches, where "going along means getting along."

:rant: :hide: :patriot:

[HockeyMom]

23. Just seems to me that some of these states are in a different country

I was a TA here for a number of years. The pledge was said over the PA system. We had one 8th grader who was Wiccan. He walked out every day when it was said. As he said, "I pledge to nobody under God." No, he was never reprimanded. Most of the class applauded him as "cool" for standing up for his beliefs.

When my daughter was in HS, one teacher tried to initiate a Moment of Silence at the beginning of the day. All but 2 of the 28 students in her class walked out. Their parents, and other parents of students not in that class, blasted the school phones angrily complaining abut her cloaked attempt at praying in public school. They reprimanded that teacher and she was gone the following year.

I also know that this administration instituted a law which states that public school employees must be given free time to PRAY. I can remember once over lunch when the Principal came in and asked if anyone wanted to lead a BIBLE READING. Truthfully, after a stunned silence, everyone in that room broke out in LAUGHTER. The Principal smiled and said, "I guess not." We were then required to sign a FORM stating that we were given an option to pray but DECLINED it.

What the hell is going on this country? Thankfully, I still live in a part of this country where the majority still thinks all this is BS.

[scarface2004]

21. at my school we have to say the pledge...

then the lords prayer, then a straight arm salute, then goosestep back to our rooms. and no one is allowed in the hall without proper documents which can be demanded at any time.

[TheGunslinger]

24. Is this student a DUer?

Wasn't there a DUer in high school who posted up here a few months back about running into problems with not reciting the pledge?