Democratic Underground Latest Greatest Lobby Journals Search Options Help Login
Google

Bush Challenges Iran, Syria, Egypt on Democracy

Printer-friendly format Printer-friendly format
Printer-friendly format Email this thread to a friend
Printer-friendly format Bookmark this thread
This topic is archived.
Home » Discuss » Latest Breaking News Donate to DU
 
Say_What Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-06-03 02:30 PM
Original message
Bush Challenges Iran, Syria, Egypt on Democracy
Bush's speech to the NED.

<clips>
WASHINGTON (Reuters) - President Bush (news - web sites) on Thursday challenged Iran and Syria and even key U.S. ally Egypt to adopt democracy and declared past U.S. policy of supporting non-democratic Arab leaders a failure.

Calling for democracy throughout the Middle East, Bush said in a sweeping foreign policy speech: "Are the peoples of the Middle East somehow beyond the reach of liberty? ... I, for one, do not believe it."

Speaking to the National Endowment for Democracy, where President Ronald Reagan (news - web sites) spoke on global democracy 20 years ago, Bush said U.S. policy spanning 60 years in support of governments not devoted to political freedom had failed and Washington had adopted a new, "forward strategy of freedom in the Middle East."

"Sixty years of Western nations excusing and accommodating the lack of freedom in the Middle East did nothing to make us safe, because in the long run stability cannot be purchased at the expense of liberty," Bush said.

<http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=578&e=1&u=/nm/20031106/ts_nm/mideast_bush_dc>
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
thebigidea Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-06-03 02:32 PM
Response to Original message
1. no, but they should be out of reach of your bloody hands, you lying tyrant
Edited on Thu Nov-06-03 02:32 PM by thebigidea
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
brucelee Donating Member (34 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-06-03 02:33 PM
Response to Original message
2. he is a pimp who has shame or dignity
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Say_What Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-06-03 02:37 PM
Response to Reply #2
6. Exactly right!
Welcome to DU brucelee :hi:
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
DeathvadeR Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-06-03 02:42 PM
Response to Reply #2
8. Ya and his ho's Freedom and Democracy have STD's.
So you better use protection.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
lovedems Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-06-03 02:35 PM
Response to Original message
3. That explains the 85,000 troops
we still have a mess in Afghanistan and Iraq and now he is picking fights with Iran, Syria and Egypt (didn't see that one coming). Can an entire group suffer from ADD?
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
metisnation Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-06-03 03:06 PM
Response to Reply #3
19. 85,000
plus 47,000=132,000

http://news.yahoo.com/fc?tmpl=fc&cid=34&in=us&cat=us_armed_forces

another lie for the Bush Cabal
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
tom_paine Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-06-03 02:35 PM
Response to Original message
4. Wow, more lying, more revisionism!
He doesn't even want freedom at home here in the Empire.

More empty words from an unelected dictator.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
arcane1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-06-03 02:36 PM
Response to Original message
5. nothing about Kuwait? Or the Saudis? Israel, etc?
:shrug:


in repube-speak, "democracy" means "support the Bush doctrine". You can be a brutal tyrant 24/7 but if you let Bush use your country as a military staging-point, you are a paragon of liberty and democracy
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Say_What Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-06-03 02:47 PM
Response to Reply #5
10. Bush PRAISED them according to the article
...Bush praised what he called positive developments toward democracy taking place in Morocco, Bahrain, Kuwait, Qatar, Yemen, Jordan and even Saudi Arabia, which is taking its first, hesitant steps toward liberalization.

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=578&e=1&u=/nm/20031106/ts_nm/mideast_bush_dc

Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
arcane1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-06-03 03:00 PM
Response to Reply #10
15. in other words
if you support our fascist imperialism, you are a "democracy". If you oppose it, you are not...

typical


why wasn't Iraq allowed to take its first, hesitant steps? Can't a shock-n-awe push SA into taking bigger steps?

:shrug:
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
PsychoDad Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-07-03 11:22 AM
Response to Reply #10
46. Bush...
Praises the "democracy" of the US Pupet Monarchies.... While condeming the more democratic countries, such as Iran and Syria, where womwn have the vote.
Not to mention the UAE, which is a Democratic country.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
loudnclear Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-06-03 02:39 PM
Response to Original message
7. Why should they try democracy? It is failing in the US and Israel
Can someone make the case?
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Vikingking66 Donating Member (402 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-06-03 02:43 PM
Response to Original message
9. damn it, he's got to stop twisting internationalism
Yes, democracy in the Middle East is great.
But Saudia Arabia and Kuwait should be on the list.

Not to mention, he's lying through he's teeth.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
bif Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-06-03 02:47 PM
Response to Original message
11. Shut the fuck up, George!
Two wars are enough for one term, ya shithead!
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
DinahMoeHum Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-06-03 02:50 PM
Response to Original message
12. Wow, talk about throwing stones from a glass house. . .
The autocrats in the ME must be laughing their asses off on this one.

:evilgrin:
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Say_What Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-06-03 03:05 PM
Response to Reply #12
18. Man, who writes this MORONS speeches?
We'll have a watch the reports on Al Jazeera for comment back, which ought to be very interesting.

Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
GermanDJ Donating Member (140 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-06-03 02:50 PM
Response to Original message
13. Wise words
And I really do think that people in Iran, Chile, Guatemala, Nicaragua, Indonesia and probably also soon in Venezuela would agree with Mr. Bush.

Well, nevermind ...

I think my head explodes :eyes:
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Malva Zebrina Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-06-03 02:57 PM
Response to Original message
14. It's a total unreal world he has built for himself and his regime
Edited on Thu Nov-06-03 02:59 PM by Marianne
where lies are made to look as though they are acceptable if a tyrant and 5-10 thousand of his innocent subjects are killed because of it. Now we have this very insane man getting up on a stage pretending to be a wise intelligent arbiter of world democracy, and it is accepted also--what a stage act--he has managed to get people to willingly suspend their disbelief as they watch this incredible Bush theater, Act I-- that is for certain.

I find this picture taken by Larry Downing to be very odd. It certainly does not say much at all--it appears to be like pictures I have taken when I hit the shutter button by mistake. It is weird that is was chosen to accompany the story

Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
FlaGranny Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-06-03 04:41 PM
Response to Reply #14
25. That photo - -
If that were me and I had to choose a photo for a story, feeling the way I do about Bush, I would choose a photo that showed a "little" man behind a large presidential seal.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Ouabache Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-06-03 04:57 PM
Response to Reply #14
26. Look closely at the photo and what it says behind him
Edited on Thu Nov-06-03 04:59 PM by sinookas
The podium with the seal is empty.
Bush is way over to the right of it, his right.

And behind * ,all that is showing of the banner is:

"MENT FOR DEM"

Whoever selected that photo knew exactly what they were doing.
It is mispelled but phonetically it makes perfect sense.
Do I get a prize for catching the phrase ?
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Malva Zebrina Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-06-03 05:56 PM
Response to Reply #26
30. good catch
Wow
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
hatrack Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-06-03 06:01 PM
Response to Reply #30
33. Wow, this is kind of like looking at Stalin-era photos
You know, so you could see who had been photographically erased from the top of Lenin's tomb each November?

Very cool picture!
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
librechik Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-06-03 03:02 PM
Response to Original message
16. So, George, are we going to start with the totalitarian Saudis?
Or how about Uzbekistan?

No, maybe Pakistan should be routed and destroyed first off. Can't have a non-democracy for an ally anymore, right?

What a lying calculating idiot.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
ErasureAcer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-06-03 09:52 PM
Response to Reply #16
38. exactly what I was thinking
bush is a moron.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
CO Liberal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-06-03 03:04 PM
Response to Original message
17. CO Liberal Challenges Bush On Democracy
How come we no longer have it here, Pretzelboy?? Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm???

:-)
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
grannylib Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-06-03 03:50 PM
Response to Reply #17
24. Exactly! All the evils he talked about in his speech...
are happening here:
incipient theocracy
no health care for all
lack of women's equal rights

it's all so much bull...
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
goforit Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-06-03 03:10 PM
Response to Original message
20. Clark's prediction of PNAC conquering 7 middle eastern countries is
is closer to the truth.

Hmmmm.......
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
gr8scott88 Donating Member (11 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-06-03 03:19 PM
Response to Original message
21. Tall Order ... Democracy in MidEast
Bush, calling for democracy throughout the Middle East, is indeed a lofty goal. More of a wish. Don't plan on it anytime soon.

That region has been tribal for over 3000 years. A formed, representitive form of government is foreign to them. I submit the following:

MIDDLE EAST PEACE: WHY IS IT SO HARD?

“Why can’t they all just get along?” Why can't middle East countries embrace Democracy? These are difficult questions.

It is very clear that there are many different factions within the various countries that make up the Middle East, and unfortunately, they don’t agree on much. One of the few things they do agree on is that they cannot trust the West, and the US and Britain in particular.

Many Americans see the Middle East as land populated by nomadic tribes, terrorists, and a few rich and powerful families that have benefited from the discovery of oil. Pictures beamed into our homes each day on television show vast contrasts that exist in these countries. There are cities as modern as many in America, yet there are also nomadic tribes that live much as they did centuries ago.

The most unifying force in the Middle East seems to be the practice of Islam, but even within their religion, Arabs making up the Middle East have large theological differences. These religious factions such as the Shiites, Sunnis, and Wahabbis also vie for power among the people, and often across national borders. However, they all seem to be unified in their hatred for Jews in general and Israel in particular.

The Palestinian/Israeli situation has become a proxy for centuries old beliefs and feelings that Westerners find hard to understand. As the US and Britain have sided with Israel, Arab hatred and distrust for the West has intensified. However, this distrust is nothing new.

It is not my intent to offend any nationality, religion or any particular group of people. It is simply my desire to try to put the events of today in a historical perspective. Obviously, this reply cannot fully convey the entire history of the Middle East, so feel free to dig deeper in your local library, or favorite websites.

European Colonialism:

When you look at a map of the Middle East, it seems to be nicely divided among the various countries with clear-cut borders. An assumption is often made that these borders are the result of regional wars, diplomacy and treaties among those who reside in the countries making up the Middle East, much like they are in Europe. However, a good number of you may be surprised to discover that the Middle East as we know it today is largely an artificial creation of the British after World War I, with the break-up of the Ottoman Empire.

While it is accurate to say that most of the modern Arab states dislike and distrust the United States, this is really only an extension of the distrust they have of the West in general. As we look at the history of the region, that distrust began with the British and to a lesser extent the French, and continued through the Cold War when the United States supported the artificial framework the British established after World War I.

The story of Western intervention begins with the British in the 19th century. Before that time, the Ottoman Empire was a formidable foe, at one time threatening Europe. However, the Industrial Revolution pushed Europe far ahead of the old Ottoman Empire and made the area ripe for colonization by Britain and France.

As part of its colonial efforts, the British sought allies against the Ottoman Turks and promised the Arabs their long-awaited independence in exchange for their support. (In reality, the Brits were looking to ensure the security of their lucrative trade operations in the Persian Gulf.) The Arabs gave that support and the Ottoman Empire fell. Sadly, the British also made similar promises to the Zionists who sought to establish a Jewish state on the Biblical site of Israel.

Upon the fall of the Ottoman Empire, the long process of carving up the Middle East into individual states began, eventually leading to the countries that we know today. While the intent was supposedly to provide for a confederation of Arab states, in reality Britain and France had secretly entered into the Sykes-Picot Agreement in 1916, which essentially divided the Ottoman Empire between these two world powers.

Unfortunately, in many instances national borders were drawn and/or modified with no regard for ancient and informal tribal and religious boundaries, and this is why many Arabs pay little or no attention to these artificial national borders to this day.

A Bolshevik spy exposed the existence of the Sykes-Picot Agreement, and it became clear to Arabs that their independence was never seriously considered. The Arabs, already displeased with the imposition of artificial borders, became enraged at the Anglo-Franco duplicity. Thus the seeds of modern Western distrust were sewn.

The Israeli/Palestinian Situation

In 1917, the League of Nations granted Great Britain control over Palestine. The British government publicly supported a Jewish homeland in Palestine, and saw this as a good way to keep the Arab nations divided. The British announced these intentions in the form of the Balfour Declaration on November 2, 1917. The declaration stated that:

“His Majesty's Government view with favor the establishment in Palestine of a national home for the Jewish people, and will use their best endeavors to facilitate the achievement of this object, it being clearly understood that nothing shall be done which may prejudice the civil and religious rights of existing non-Jewish communities in Palestine, or the rights and political status enjoyed by Jews in any other country.”

A careful reading of that relevant passage from the Agreement easily leads one to believe that the British were hopeful that the indigenous Arabs/Palestinian populations could peacefully co-exist within a new Jewish state. This level of naïveté on the part of Great Britain has haunted the region in the 86 years since.

Elsewhere in the region, Britain sought out various individuals and families that were friendly toward them and created a number of states around their handpicked strongmen.

Beginning in 1921, the British created a series of Arab states governed by feudal monarchies. These states include: Jordan, Kuwait, Bahrain, Qatar, the United Arab Emirates, Saudi Arabia and not least of all Iraq.

In doing so, the British placed diverse and often rival Arab populations together in artificial containers. This, naturally, could only lead to future animosity toward the West. To the Arabs it must certainly have seemed that they had traded one troubled empire for the next.

Imagine if, during the American Civil War, a foreign third party had decided which states would be Union and which would join the Confederacy. To the people of the time, it would have been an outrage. And so you can imagine the outrage of a Sunni or a Shiite now being classified as Jordanian, or Saudi Arabian, and so on.

The Discovery of Oil

An already complicated and unstable situation grew worse with the discovery of vast oil reserves in the region during the early twenties and throughout the thirties. Standard Oil, and therefore the United States, soon found great interest in the Middle East. This extraordinary new wealth also strengthened the monarchies elevated to power by the British. But that wealth would play a significant factor in the Brits’ increasing loss of influence and control over the region for the next four decades.

The discovery of oil not only made the region far more wealthy, but also made it far more strategically important as global industrialization expanded the need for low-cost crude. World War II would help to show that the control of oil production could also help determine military outcomes. This guaranteed that the world’s superpowers would continue to exert influence in the Mid-East.

Another outcome of WWII was a renewed call for a Jewish state. The Nazi horror visited upon the Jews in World War II re-ignited the concept of a Jewish homeland, and it began to find credibility and acceptance among the international community. This, of course, further enraged the Arabs and they became even more distrustful of the West.

The events and violence in Palestine grew so desperate by 1945 that the British asked the UN to aid them in resolving the issue. In 1947, the UN voted overwhelmingly to partition Palestine into two separate states, one Arab and one Jewish. The US embraced this plan and was a major advocate for it among other reluctant nations.

Interestingly, President Truman’s decision to support this plan ran against the advice from his own State Department who feared that openly supporting the Jews would not only lead to further mistrust of the United States by an already disillusioned Arab population, but would also force the Arabs to turn their sentiments toward the Soviet Union.

When it became clear that troops would be needed to enforce the division in Palestine, the US position on a Jewish state began to shift. This buoyed the Arab world since it appeared that this new Western power was not working actively against them as the British had. After all, the United States had freed Europe from the Nazi yoke of oppression and had sought no permanent colonies in return. It became more and more clear to the Arab world that the US would not support the creation of a Jewish state if it meant the continued presence of troops.

However, 1948 was an election year and Truman feared the loss of Jewish votes in what was already shaping up to be a very close election. To the absolute shock of the Arab world and our own diplomats at the UN and abroad, the United States announced its de-facto recognition of Israel 11 minutes after it declared its existence. The Arab states, reeling from the US announcement, would never fully trust the West again.

Cold War Considerations

“If the chief natural resource of the Middle East were bananas, the region would not have attracted the attention of U.S. policymakers as it has for decades.” (The Cato Institute)

Having had their fill of conflict in the region (1947/48, 1956, 1967, and 1972), the British decided to withdraw from the Middle East in the late 20 th century. Remembering the lessons of WWII, and fearing that the Soviet Union would encroach upon the Middle East and gain control of its vast oil reserves, the US tried to take over where Britain had left off.

The US supported the British framework for the Middle East up to and after it took stewardship of the region in 1972. While the US may not have agreed with the seemingly ad-hoc apportionment (artificial boundaries) of Arab populations, the threat of future Soviet encroachment was too great to ignore.

As if continuing former British policy, the US selected its own “strongmen” in the region. The two “pillars of power” that were selected were Iran and Saudi Arabia, and they would receive aggressive US support. It is no mere coincidence that these two countries were both massive suppliers of Western crude and, in the case of Iran, a secular government bordering the expanding Soviet Empire.

That policy partially collapsed along with the Shah of Iran in 1979. The Iran hostage crisis showed the US that Iran was not only under new leadership, but a leadership that was openly hostile to the West. Iran, once a secular buffer containing the Soviet Union, was now an open door to Soviet expansion.

In an effort to promote secular (read: controllable) governments in the region, the US backed Iraq during the Iran/Iraq war. And in doing so, we aided the rise of Saddam Hussein. The Iran/Iraq war ended with a UN-brokered cease-fire in 1988. However, the stage had been set. Hussein would later engage in some imperialism of his own.

With the fall of the Soviet Union, the Cold War concerns about control of oil resources by the Communists diminished, only to be replaced by concerns about these same oil resources being controlled by renegade secular and Islamist regimes. One big reason for the US intervention when Iraq invaded Kuwait, Gulf War I, was Saudi Arabia’s fear that they would be next on Hussein’s list. Of course, from the US point of view, it would be unacceptable for Hussein to control the world’s largest oil reserves.

While the support of Arab states in the Gulf War may have been appreciated by Arabs, this appreciation was offset by the West’s ongoing support of Israel. This continued to anger the Arab population, but the rush of petrodollars into the hands of the ruling families hand-picked by the West enabled them to buy peace and quiet, at least for a while. Yet under the surface in the schools and Mosques, religious clerics preached hatred and violence toward the West and the US in particular. Unfortunately, buying peace with petrodollars does not win over the hearts and minds of the population.

Distrust Versus Hatred

Many I’m sure, can cite other times when the West made promises in the Mid-East that were not kept. Clearly, the West (Britain and the US in particular) has made mistakes over the years in dealing with the Middle East. It is no wonder that distrust exists in the region, even to this day.

But there is a big difference between distrust and hatred. Several ruling governments in the Mid-East, including Saudi Arabia, have sponsored the teaching of hatred and violence toward the West and the US specifically, as well as Israel. A generation of Arabs has been taught that the US is nothing but a puppet of Israel. Militant Islamism is widespread in the Middle East. Some of these states have also sponsored terrorists and terrorist organizations whose mission it is to kill Westerners. The 9/11 attacks showed us the extent to which the hatred of the West is ingrained in the Arab world.

In this day and time, there is no need for terrorism as a bargaining tool, especially for nations that are sitting on some of the largest oil reserves in the world. With such vast resources, these nations should be able to negotiate for what they want and need.

Unfortunately, despots like Saddam Hussein and fanatical religious clerics have chosen to empower themselves by taking the West’s mistakes of the past and amplifying that to motivate their followers to hatred, militancy and terrorism. In Saudi Arabia’s case, the royal family has allowed militant Wahabbism to become so widespread that they do not dare to oppress it for fear of being overthrown. I don’t know how the US will ultimately deal with Saudi Arabia.

A well-known Mid-East scholar, Daniel Pipes, has said that the solution to the problem of terrorism lies with moderate Muslims, meaning those who do not allow themselves to be whipped into a frenzy by fanatical zealots, but who can see the benefits of having people and nations of all kinds working together to build the Middle East into an integral part of the growing global economic engine, and not just the gas station.

He believes that a lasting peace in the Mid-East will not occur until the body of moderate Muslims in the region rises up and takes control from the radical extremists. He is not optimistic that the latest “Roadmap For Peace” will be successful.

Conclusions

Britain and the United States have made some mistakes in Middle East policy for many years, thus creating justified distrust. However, several Arab nations have sponsored the teaching of hatred and violence toward the West and the US specifically, as well as Israel. The “Blame America First” crowd overlooks this fact.

While we can hope for a lasting peace in the Middle East, the likelihood is that the region will continue to be a dangerous and volatile place. There is the real possibility that the Saudi royal family will be ousted from power. Should that happen, the US will have another troublesome decision to make. Do we let the largest oil nation in the world fall into the hands of radicals and terrorists? Probably not. Likewise, do we let Iran advance its nuclear programs and sell such weapons to other radical nations? Probably not.

In conclusion, the Middle East will continue to be a tinderbox.

Keeping it real !!
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
54anickel Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-06-03 10:36 PM
Response to Reply #21
40. Thank you. Very interesting and informative post.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Say_What Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-06-03 03:21 PM
Response to Original message
22. BBC: Bush demands Mid-East democracy
<clips>

President George W Bush has deplored the "freedom deficit" in the Middle East and said the United States must remain focused on the region "for decades".

"Our commitment to democracy is being tested in the Middle East," he said in a televised Washington speech in defence of US democracy.

Mr Bush said dictators in Iraq and Syria had "left a legacy of torture, oppression, misery and ruin".

Turning to Iran, he warned that "the regime in Tehran must heed the democratic demands of the Iranian people, or lose its last claim to legitimacy".

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/3248119.stm

Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Johnyawl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-06-03 03:23 PM
Response to Original message
23. democracy should be easy to achieve in Egypt...

...they get a HUGE chunk of our foreign aid, it's the only thing that keeps the Mubarak government afloat I'm sure if we made it a condition of that aid, they'd institute democracy, and hold free elections. I just don't think we - or Israel - would like the government that would win the election.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
young_at_heart Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-06-03 05:15 PM
Response to Original message
27. He's just FULL of surprises!
It's almost as if he wants us to become totally isolated from the rest of the world. The US gets to choose how other countries should live, I guess.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Scott Lee Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-06-03 05:44 PM
Response to Reply #27
29. An odd definition of "freedom"
The US gets to choose how other countries should live, I guess.

To many Americans, this is "protecting our freedom".

Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
DebJ Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-06-03 05:41 PM
Response to Original message
28. stability vs liberty ... patriot act???
because in the long run stability cannot be purchased at the expense of liberty," Bush said.

He actually said something intelligent here ??? But no doubt he did not comprehend his own words.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
roguevalley Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-06-03 05:58 PM
Response to Original message
31. challenge him back, Iran, Egypt and Syria.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
CivilRightsNow Donating Member (646 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-06-03 06:00 PM
Response to Original message
32. NED scares me
I did some research which I posted here about NED and it's members. This place seems like a corrupt shadow govt. And you can think Im wearing my tinfoil hat all that I want. I dont know why he gave this speech to NED. I mean, think about it. Regan gave a speech to NED before he started the cold war. Who is NED in importance?


I know Wesley Clark's association makes NED something alot of people at DU just arent willing to look into. BUt I think that good men sometimes get implicated in weird things.

The others, for the most part, even the govt members are shady.

/me clasps tinfoil hat tight :)
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Say_What Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-06-03 08:50 PM
Response to Reply #32
34. It ought to scare anyone who can think properly
most brainwashed and Bushwacked 'muriKans with heads in the sand actually buy the bullsh*t that Uncle Sam goes around the world spreading democracy. A bigger lie we will never hear than that one. Here's a bit of background on the nefarious NED, which you may have already researched. The other one to be aware of is the US Agency for International Development (USAID). It basically does the same--provides money to foreign nationals who want to overthrow their government in the name of *democracy*.



How many Americans could identify the National Endowment for Democracy? An organization which often does exactly the opposite of what its name implies. The NED was set up in the early 1980s under President Reagan in the wake of all the negative revelations about the CIA in the second half of the 1970s. The latter was a remarkable period. Spurred by Watergate-the Church Committee of the Senate, the Pike Committee of the House and the Rockefeller Commission, created by the president, were all busy investigating the CIA. Seemingly every other day there was a new headline about the discovery of some awful thing, even criminal conduct, the CIA had been mixed up in for years. The Agency was getting an exceedingly bad name, and it was causing the powers-that-be much embarrassment.

Something had to be done. What was done was not to stop doing these awful things. Of course not. What was done was to shift many of these awful things to a new organization, with a nice sounding name-the National Endowment for Democracy. The idea was that the NED would do somewhat overtly what the CIA had been doing covertly for decades, and thus, hopefully, eliminate the stigma associated with CIA covert activities.

It was a masterpiece. Of politics, of public relations and of cynicism. Thus it was that in 1983, the National Endowment for Democracy was set up to "support democratic institutions throughout the world through private, nongovernmental efforts". Notice the "nongovernmental"-part of the image, part of the myth. In actuality, virtually every penny of its funding comes from the federal government, as is clearly indicated in the financial statement in each issue of its annual report. NED likes to refer to itself as an NGO (non-governmental organization) because this helps to maintain a certain credibility abroad that an official US government agency might not have. But NGO is the wrong category. NED is a GO.

Allen Weinstein, who helped draft the legislation establishing NED, was quite candid when he said in 1991: "A lot of what we do today was done covertly 25 years ago by the CIA." In effect, the CIA has been laundering money through NED.

The Endowment has four principal initial recipients of funds: the International Republican Institute; the National Democratic Institute for International Affairs; an affiliate of the AFL-CIO (such as the American Center for International Labor Solidarity); and an affiliate of the Chamber of Commerce (such as the Center for International Private Enterprise). These institutions then disburse funds to other institutions in the US and all over the world, which then often disburse funds to yet other organizations.

In a multitude of ways, NED meddles in the internal affairs of foreign countries by supplying funds, technical know-how, training, educational materials, computers, fax machines, copiers, automobiles and so on, to selected political groups, civic organizations, labor unions, dissident movements, student groups, book publishers, newspapers, other media, etc. NED programs generally impart the basic philosophy that working people and other citizens are best served under a system of free enterprise, class cooperation, collective bargaining, minimal government intervention in the economy and opposition to socialism in any shape or form. A freemarket economy is equated with democracy, reform and growth, and the merits of foreign investment are emphasized.

http://www.thirdworldtraveler.com/Blum/TrojanHorse_RS.html




NED and the Venezuelan Coup:

...The Long Arm of the NED

The funding was sent by the National Endowment for Democracy (NED), a nominally private institution created during the cold war, which receives nearly all of its annual budget from congressional appropriations. The NED's express mission is to "strengthen democracy throughout the world." However, many academics view the institution as a cold war mechanism for deploying U.S. "soft power" during the East-West standoff, and critics have frequently accused the NED of simply being a tool for supporting regimes friendly to the United States and opposing ones considered hostile. The NED funnels its money overseas either through direct grants to foreign organizations or through four NED core institutes: the American Center for International Labor Solidarity (ACILS), the Center for International Private Enterprise (CIPE), the International Republican Institute (IRI), and the National Democratic Institute for International Affairs (NDI).

Between 2000 and 2001, as the political and social crisis here worsened, the NED more than tripled its Venezuela funding, from $257,831 to $877,435. The lion's share went to Chávez opponents.

A several-month examination of the use of more than a million dollars in 2000 and 2001 NED grants has revealed not only a consistent pattern of support for Chávez opponents--including two groups active in the protests that brought about his brief downfall this April--but also apparent deception concerning some of the money's use as well as the fact that other monies never reached their intended destination.

http://www.americaspolicy.org/articles/2002/0212venezuela_body.html



NED funneling money to CANF and then to anti-Cuba POLS

<clips>

....That outspokenness is what got him in trouble, at least with Mas Canosa. in 1992 Smith was interviewed by filmmakers from the University of West Florida for a documentary titled "Campaign for Cuba," which aired on PBS that year. Smith's statements on that program formed the basis of CANF's lawsuit against him. In a 20-second sound bite, he summarized an article by John Spicer Nichols that appeared in The Nation in 1988. The article, titled "Cuba: The Congress; The Power of the Anti-Fidel Lobby," reported that the National Endowment for Democracy, a quasi-governmental institute that funnels U.S. tax dollars to projects intended to support democracy abroad, signed contracts with CANF from 1983-1988 awarding the foundation grants totalling $390,000 for the purpose of supporting a European organization also seeking to marshal opposition to the Castro government.

During that same period, the political action committee associated- through interlocking directorships with CANF gave a nearly identical sum of contributions to political candidates. Among the candidates to receive a portion of this PAC money was then Congressman Dante Fascell, who introduced the legislation creating NED and later became a member of the NED board.
As a board member, Fascell, whose congressional district in South Florida encompassed the headquarters for CANF and the homes of many of its leaders, voted for grants to CANF on at least three occasions.

http://www.nieman.harvard.edu/reports/98-3NRfall98/Nichols_SLAPP.html


Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
cliss Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-06-03 11:15 PM
Response to Reply #34
42. Thanks Gre8 Scott & Say What
for very informative posts. Wow. That was a lot of information, and just what I was looking for.

Which means that we have caused more trouble around the world than I can even imagine.

No wonder the world looks at Bush and hates what it sees. This man needs to be stopped.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
gr8scott88 Donating Member (11 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-07-03 09:41 AM
Response to Reply #42
44. Not just W
.. it's been that way for ages. Truman 'recognized' Israel as a State in '48, etc. W just happens to be in the seat. That cast was made YEARS ago.

GR8
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Say_What Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-07-03 11:04 AM
Response to Reply #42
45. Policy Planning Study 23 (1948)
Written in 1948, this ought to sound familiar.

<clips>

Furthermore, we have about 50% of the world's wealth, but only 6.3% of its population. This disparity is particularly great as between ourselves and the peoples of Asia. In this situation, we cannot fail to be the object of envy and resentment. Our real task in the coming period is to devise a pattern of relationships which will permit us to maintain this position of disparity without positive detriment to our national security. To do so, we will have to dispense with all sentimentality and day-dreaming; and our attention will have to be concentrated everywhere on our immediate national objectives. We need not deceive ourselves that we can afford today the luxury of altruism and world-benefaction....

We should cease to talk about vague and--and for the Far East--unreal objectives such as human rights, the raising of living standards, and democratization. The day is not far off when we are going to have to deal in straight power concepts. The less we are then hampered by idealistic slogans, the better.


--George Kennan, Policy Planning Study 23 (1948)

http://www.english.uiuc.edu/maps/poets/a_f/espada/imperialism.htm



Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Classical_Liberal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-06-03 09:30 PM
Response to Original message
35. Egypt is a democracy.
Edited on Thu Nov-06-03 09:31 PM by Classical_Liberal
Iran is a democracy but not a liberal democracy. It is pretty much a muslim version of what Bush supporters want here. Bush is ignorant, and a hypocrite. Furthermore their is no indication that Ned believes in democracy given all the democracies they have overthrown.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Darranar Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-06-03 09:35 PM
Response to Original message
36. Note...
that he didn't mention Saudi Arabia, Kuwait, Pakistan, Uzbekistan, etc.

Only Egypt was mentioned among US allies: the one least beneficial to American imperialistic interests.

And it's not like any of this is going to be followed by reasonable action.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
lumpy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-06-03 09:44 PM
Response to Original message
37. The world would be a better place
if this dolt of a president would shut his face. Does he really believe he is the second coming?
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
mrdmk Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-06-03 09:53 PM
Response to Original message
39. Mr. Bush thinks he won the election
This is part of the Neocon plan.
http://newamericancentury.org/RebuildingAmericasDefenses.pdf
http://newamericancentury.org/
(Above is the document written by William Kristol and Co.)

The troops are being activated. (Is rotation in the works?)

The draft?

Airbases are being built in Iraq?

As soon as Iraq was “defeated”, Powell and Rumsfeld was quoted as to say Syria is next
http://www.wsws.org/articles/2003/apr2003/syri-a16.shtml

Rove, “no more war in ‘04”.

Just what is Mr. Bush planning here. It seems to me there is no policy with this administration, only a ploy to stay in power. I believe most Americans will not stand for this (even the media) if the information is made available to them.


Something interesting I found in my research. Do not know the validity of the source.
http://www.forward.com/issues/2003/03.11.07/news1.wolfowitz.html

Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
dArKeR Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-06-03 11:04 PM
Response to Original message
41. Maybe they'll turn out like PI Democracy with Child Prostitution next to
Arroyo's palace and every other city in the country! Or Bush's African democracy of children soldiers and everyone else with aids while the Western Corps. jack up the prices of aids drugs. Or the Bush Democracy in Central and S. America were the bullet if king and everyone else sniffs glue because they can't afford the cocaine Bush snorted for 25 years. Or Afghanistan/Iraq Democracy where you kill everyone who has a beard and a scarf and all you've got left are Shriners hats, ironed Levis slacks, shirts, belts, black dress shoes and wallets loaded with our hard earned tax dollars!
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
leesa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-06-03 11:22 PM
Response to Original message
43. Why? Do they have to much Democracy for this corporate whore?
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
DU AdBot (1000+ posts) Click to send private message to this author Click to view 
this author's profile Click to add 
this author to your buddy list Click to add 
this author to your Ignore list Tue Apr 16th 2024, 02:17 PM
Response to Original message
Advertisements [?]
 Top

Home » Discuss » Latest Breaking News Donate to DU

Powered by DCForum+ Version 1.1 Copyright 1997-2002 DCScripts.com
Software has been extensively modified by the DU administrators


Important Notices: By participating on this discussion board, visitors agree to abide by the rules outlined on our Rules page. Messages posted on the Democratic Underground Discussion Forums are the opinions of the individuals who post them, and do not necessarily represent the opinions of Democratic Underground, LLC.

Home  |  Discussion Forums  |  Journals |  Store  |  Donate

About DU  |  Contact Us  |  Privacy Policy

Got a message for Democratic Underground? Click here to send us a message.

© 2001 - 2011 Democratic Underground, LLC