Dean blasts governor over Schiavo case

[janx]

TALLAHASSEE - Saying Florida Republicans should be ''embarrassed'' by their handling of a nationally watched right-to-die case, Democratic presidential front-runner Howard Dean accused Gov. Jeb Bush and the Legislature of interfering in a private matter when they ordered a feeding tube reinserted into the body of a brain-damaged woman.

Speaking just three blocks from the governor's office, Dean told a crowd that he was ''appalled'' by Bush and Republican lawmakers' move last month to overturn a court order and keep Terri Schiavo from dying after living for 13 years in a vegetative state.

''I'm tired of people in the Legislature thinking that they have an MD when what they really have is a BS,'' Dean, a physician and former Vermont governor, said to thunderous applause from about 200 lunching at the Capital Tiger Bay Club, a bipartisan group of Tallahassee movers and shakers.

Dean also lambasted Florida's Republican governor for his refusal to end the state's ban on gay adoptions. Earlier in the day, Bush unveiled a program aimed at finding homes for thousands of foster children -- but reaffirmed the ban on gay adoption while endorsing adoptions by single parents.

More here: http://www.bayarea.com/mld/mercurynews/news/politics/7188872.htm

[janx]

1. I wondered why he didn't say something about this earlier,

to be truthful. I guess he waited until he got to Florida.

[NewYorkerfromMass]

2. OMG here we go again

any sane man would have stayed away from this issue. Dean's ego strikes again.

[maxsolomon]

3. an issue that spans cons & libs

is exactly what he should tackle.

lets hear the pukes defend your right to torture your relatives for your own peace of mind.

[0007]

4. Thanks for speaking up, I feel the same way!

I think Dean is doing the right thing by speaking up for the truth.

[brook]

5. Not exactly a partisan issue.

Florida's full of folks who are on the downhill side of the mountain. They sure don't want to be *ventilated while vegatative*, figuring (reasonably so, imo) that the plug will be pulled when their estate's milked dry. Isn't it funny how the party of "less government" seeks to intrude upon our most private, painful and personal decisions? They ought to change their slogan to "No Orifice Left Behind".

I'm delighted to see Dr. Dean address these issues and to continue to point out to the masses that politicians are not MD's, therefore they are unqualified to render opinions on matters best left to the citizens, themselves.

[truthisfreedom]

7. heh. i liked his BS comment, though.

he seems to be getting himself in a bit more trouble each day... i wonder what's up?

[Zynx]

8. Look at public opinion data on this:

Most people support Dean's position on this. How is that getting yourself in trouble?

http://pollingreport.com/news.htm
% .

Remove the feeding tube 61 .

Keep the feeding tube 22 .

Not sure 17 .

[NewYorkerfromMass]

13. Easy for people w/o a feeding tube to say

good fucking lord I am glad medicine is not performed via polls.

[eileen_d]

18. LOL, no shit

Next thing you know we'll be seeing feeding tube "reality shows" on TV.

[Name removed]

25. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Scott Lee]

9. Do you EVER take a break?

One hundredth of the energy you put into gnawing on Dean's ankle could light up Vegas for a year.

[ozone_man]

10. I would prefer not to light up Vegas for a year,

on general principles. It's just not sustainable. I would prefer that the energy go to a Green energy state like Oregon or Washington. Oh, there I go again!

[Name removed]

28. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Forkboy]

23. There is nothing Dean can do

that you would take as a positive.

[RetroLounge]

27. Really. And are you an MD?

eom

[kyrasdad]

6. It's about time

that a candidate for President had the balls to stand up and actually take a position. I get so sick and tired of hearing politicians do a dance around a subject that you have no idea where they stand. Will Dean get blasted... damn straight he will... but guess what... he'll actually be able to say to whoever is blasting him... EXACTLY where do you stand, and when they come out with their canned political double speak answer, Bush will look like the total political jackass he really is...

[pop goes the weasel]

11. he loses the disablity vote, then

Why doesn't Dean insist that people have a right to appropriate therapy? Why is he jumping on the starve-cripples-to-death bandwagon?

[soup]

15. starve-cripples-to-death bandwagon?

Maybe the anti-political grandstanding on a family's personal pain bandwagon.
Maybe the pro-separation of powers bandwagon.
Maybe the equal protection under the law bandwagon.
Maybe the anti-appeasement of the radical right-wing fundies bandwagon.

But 'jumping on the starve-cripples-to-death bandwagon'? I just don't see it that way.

Do you honestly think jeb, *jr or Johnny Byrd give two hoots what happens to Terri Schiavo? Or that Ken Connor, Randall Terry and their ilk don't have a much broader agenda?

[Zynx]

17. My God this is the weakest attack yet on Dean.

This is a decision that should be left to her husband. Dean is saying the state has no business getting involved and that is the responsible position to take.

[SemperEadem]

41. My sentiments exactly

First off, I can well understand the position of her parents in that they don't want to let go of their child and that's how parents will view their grown children, especially in this sort of instance. They are clinging to the belief that the God they pray to will choose them to bestow benevolence and a deeply desired miracle, like the book they profess to be His truth illustrates time and again. It's the paradigm in which they've been inculcated, and is as much a part of them as the color of their hair or the shape of their fingernails. You cannot fault them; they've been roughly treated by the circumstances which brought their daughter to where she is now.

We all just may see some woman who has about the same consideration for herself as a newborn baby. But we didn't raise her. Her parents did. It's easy for us to jump on the band wagon and demand that politics not tread in the way of medicine; it's easy for us to say remove the tube and quit making her suffer because we have no investment in her. It never should have been in the news, as this is a matter between her husband and her doctors and her family, not the media, not the governor, not the 'right to life on my terms' movement; However, the last word should be with the spouse, unless you've got irrefutably documented proof as to why his decisions should be superceded by parents or those not even remotely or directly invested in his marriage. If she died tomorrow, none of us are going into mourning weeds for 2 months.

Once an adult is married, the last word stops with the spouse because, biblically, that admonishment is one of many things Christians subscribe to as being their truth. They leave their parents and cleave unto their spouse... it sounds really pretty and romantic to hear this at the wedding. Perhaps, on that day, no one thinks anything remotely this negative will develop in their lives.

But when life waxes negative and "leaving your parents, cleave only to him/her" is put into practice in real life situations, the state, the governor, the media, the 'right to life on my terms' people have no business being up in the middle of it, discussing it with and disseminating it to people who have absolutely no kind of direct emotional, psychological, financial investment in it whatsoever.

[NewYorkerfromMass]

43. The parents want her alive

maybe the husband should get divorced.

[Pastiche423]

19. Terri is not a "cripple"

She "lives" in a vegatative state. She can not think. She can not speak. She has no quality of life.

Out of curiosity, are you a crip?

Every single day, Dean makes me prouder to be one of his supporters. How many times on this board have we asked, why won't someone speak out for us?

Dean speaks out for us.

[NewYorkerfromMass]

21. And who's speaking out for those who cannot speak?

Hint- she can't speak- she's comatose.

[Heddi]

24. No, she's not comatose

Comatose means that she does not respond to any stimuli at all--painful or pleasurable.

If she were comatose, they could stick a 4-inch needle in her jaw and she wouldn't react to the pain at all.

She's in a vegatative state--which means she doesn't speak, and has limited functions, but that she does respond to painful stimuli.

Very different terms in the medical world.

Just because you can't speak, or can't feed yourself, or can't walk, or can't use the bathroom on your own doesn't mean you're comatose.

[NewYorkerfromMass]

34. So she's alive if she feels pain

Is that accurate? Sounds like one would want to err on the side of life, especially if there is a possibility she could recover some consciousness.

[Heddi]

44. well she's alive

until she's medically dead.

Being in a coma is not medical death. It is brain death, but organs can still continue to function with life support.

Medical death is I guess technical death because that's when nothing working, no waves, no heartbeat, no blood-flow, no brain waves, etc.

I guess yes, she's alive if she feels pain and reacts to painful stimulus.

And I agree with erring on the side of life, especially since the husband sort of 'forgot' that Terri said she didn't want to live this way until she had been living that way for about 7 years.

I don't know---I might not remember what I had for dinner last Friday, or what colour my first barbie doll's dress was, but I think I'd remember if my husband said he did or didn't want to be on life support.....and not 'remember' it 7 or so years AFTER he'd been on life support....

[doppledang]

26. Not comatose

She's "vegetative," not comatose. Her eyes are open, and she does move. She's vegetative in that she has no (or little) response to her environment

[RetroLounge]

29. Hint, while your getting a clue

your candidate is tanking.

[DemVet]

32. Yes, I am a "crip!"

:wtf: As someone who is disabled, I find this extremely insensitive and offensive that you used the phrase "are you a crip." You should be ashamed, I don't care what context you used it in or what motive you had.

[Pastiche423]

37. I am a crip

I've been one for over 17 years. The term is neither insensitive, nor offensive to the majority in the online disabled community.

Some prefer gimp or dis. All three are alternatives for handicapped, which I despise.

Which do you prefer?

[JNelson6563]

12. Excellent work Doctor

Not only does this touch folks in both parties but,as has been mentioned, many in FLA are on the downside of the ol' hill.

The fact that he's a doctor gives him extra points in the credibility dept on the topic too.

Julie

[tinnypriv]

14. Needs to use the BS line in on Bush

That's fucking classic. :D

[Evanstondem]

16. Go Dean!

Way to call Jeb and the Florida Repugs for their political pandering to the right-to-lifers and gay-haters.

[Noordam]

20. :kick:

:kick:

[pfitz59]

22. Death with dignity!

I work with the elderly and disabled every day. Their number one worry is to be left helpless and attached to a machine. ALL have expressed that a painless death would be preferrable.

[politicat]

39. Yeah, but....

Starvation isn't painless. It's a pretty horrific way for someone to die.

[NewYorkerfromMass]

40. Also, you need the statement expressing this wish

a living will, health care proxy or whatever.

[RetroLounge]

30. Way to go DOCTOR Dean. MD trumps BS.

"I'm tired of people in the Legislature thinking that they have an MD when what they really have is a BS," Dean, a physician and former Vermont governor, said to thunderous applause from about 200 lunching at the Capital Tiger Bay Club, a bipartisan group of Tallahassee movers and shakers.

[fishnfla]

31. Folks, Jeb is loving every minute of this

I understand Dr Dean's ire. Hell I agree with him 100%

But, he is playing right onto Jebs campaign for president in 2008.And Johnny Bird for Senate. Jeb's gonna gonna raise his arms over the kneeling faithful throngs and say "if that liberal devil says its wrong, we must be on the side of the angels!"
And the cacky-lackys will sit there and go "uh-yup, golly-gee garsh, can I give yuh an amen?"

Jeb and Johnny Bird did this to pander votes for their political future, Dr Dean is just propping them up.

[transeo]

36. So what are we supposed to do then?

Lie down and play dead like the rest of the democratic party? Tell Jeb that he's absolutely right, like our Dems in congress have done to his brother over and over again since 9/11?

We need people who are willing to FIGHT for crying out loud. Otherwise we are the weak party and will continue losing ground.

[toopers]

42. You don't fight just to fight.

Since there is no right answer to this issue, you steer clear. Just look how divided this board is over the issue.

[fishnfla]

45. Well then fight for things that matter!

The only people this matters to are the Xtian coalitioners.

Shrub pulled this same sort of tub-thumping act when he was in Texas, with the death penalty (how ironic!)to get their attention.

Dean is playing right into their hands. Fight, but dont play their way for them.

[NewYorkerfromMass]

38. Well Dean certainly doesn't shy from controversy

I will grant him that, it just seems he picked a bad issue to flag out.

[toopers]

33. This is not a medical issue,

this is a legal issue. The reason Dean should stay away from this issue is because there is no right answer. Dean's MD degree makes him no more a expert in this situation than a right wing christian crazy.

You have two feuding parties speaking for someone who cannot speak for herself. Without the living will in place, there is no proof regarding which way Terri Schiavo thought. It comes down to a "he said/she said" argument. If you are going to make an error regarding the decision of whether to let her live or die, on which side would you want to err -- death is irrevocable (a decision similar to condemning a convict to death), allowing her to live on a feeding tube may provide an opportunity for future medical advances, but she possibly suffers until that time, if it ever happens. Again, there is no real right answer.

[NewYorkerfromMass]

35. Why not err on the side of life?

Sounds like Dean has made a big political mistake.