Can the President Order a Killing on U.S. Soil?

[ECH1969]

In the latest twist in the debate over presidential powers, a Justice Department official suggested that in certain circumstances, the president might have the power to order the killing of terrorist suspects inside the United States.

Steven Bradbury, acting head of the department's Office of Legal Counsel, went to a closed-door Senate intelligence committee meeting last week to defend President George W. Bush's surveillance program.

Current and former government officials said they could think of several scenarios in which a president might consider ordering the killing of a terror suspect inside the United States.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/11180519/site/newsweek/

[Jim Sagle]

1. A scenario where the "tarist" is leading in the polls?

[Gman]

37. The "tarist" is a Democratic Senator on a small plane

and leading in the polls right before the election.

[OKthatsIT]

81. We ARE going to get this cabal..every friggin one of them!

[calimary]

87. From your lips (and keyboard) to God's ears.

I was watching CSPAN this morning - Senate Intelligence Committee. NEVER have I seen such shifty-eyed people as those questioned on that panel - ESPECIALLY one john negroponte. Oh, MAN! SHIFTY eyes. Hemming and hawing. Same from porter goss and robert mueller and the big-ass generals who were sitting there, too. When they did answer, at least to questions from the Democrats on the panel, it was either one of about a dozen versions of "I don't know" or "I don't have that information," or else it was "I'd like to answer that in closed session."

All I could think of, watching this infuriating charade was - "Oh, MAN, we are SO poorly served. We are being SO poorly served..." Maybe it's more accurate to say we're simply "being served" - straight to the hungry lions in the colisseum.

Do I feel any safer with these sneaky-ass weasels in charge of wiretapping and choosing whom to wiretap, and then what's done with that info, how long and where it's kept, who gets to see it, the Oregon Democrat brought up data-mining - which wasn't answered or addressed AT ALL... everything just glossed over (or maybe, instead, "Gossed" over).

I want these people OUT OF POWER NOW!!! I don't want them to spend one single extra MINUTE at the reins of power. I want them OUT!!! Where they can't do ANY more damage!!!

It was a horrendous, disgraceful, deeply discomforting display. It left me feeling like my worst enemy and my biggest threat is none other than my own government.

[reprobate]

95. Remember, "To Serve Man" was a cookbook. What that has to do with

anything I don't know, but you're right that this bunch is the epitome of evil. I now know how the German people felt in the 1930s. A few saw what was happening, but most just sat back and applauded the Maximum Leader.

As I see it this nation has a choice now. We will either remove them legally by impeachment and then election of a new breed of politician, or we will sit back and wait for the masses to become so poor and hungry that they rise up and create a new government. That's the usual way governments change when the wealth of a nation become so imbalanced as it is becoming now.

[Wind Dancer]

97. The Twilight Zone at its finest.

I just watched that episode last week. It was interesting to observe how the entire population was seduced by the aliens in a very short amount of time.

[Protagoras]

99. Sounds like They Live

One of Carpenters finest.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

106. Between John Negroponte and Eliot Abrams, you've got

the attack of the Lizard People. Those two give the impression of being classic ice-cold sociopaths.

[banana republican]

108. like Wellstone????? n/t

[chicofaraby]

2. CAN He? Yes.

Is it a criminal act? You bet.

[OKthatsIT]

82. They can take out anyone ina plane in the sky...from space.

If I were Chavez, I'd take a boat and train. AND not tell anyone when and where.

[GetTheRightVote]

3. This is not good for us, not good at all and very extremely scary

where is this nation going any more ??????

:kick:

[me b zola]

13. The scariest part is...

The scariest part of this story is that they make a statement claiming that this is their right, similar to many of their other criminal activities. We all knew that this is how they thought, and that nothing is beneath them, but to make a pronouncement of their illegal activities is chilling.

[KittyWampus]

73. They are setting the stage for Summary Execution

[Charlie Brown]

4. If this happens to US citizens like Padilla

I might consider applying for a job outside the US.

[Frustratedlady]

56. Might as well....

the jobs are almost all out of the States, anyway.

[area51]

74. What Frustratedlady said. (n/t)

[PDJane]

5. The sound of jackboots

is getting louder and louder.

[niyad]

6. a "suspect"-- as in, no proof, just their suspicions--like the untold

numbers of people who were the victims of illegal wiretapping, etc, completely unfounded? if this doesn't scare the bejesus out of everyone reading it, then their heads are clearly completely up their asses.

hubris, thy name is george walker bush.

[Lorien]

63. That was my first thought as well. If Americans are no longer innocent

until proven guilty, with a right to due process, then this is no longer america.

The thumb sucking bed wetters on the far right will love eat this up, unfortunately. They think "freedom" is defined as their right to buy cheap crap from China, and lots of it.

[calimary]

88. At that point, the terrorists HAVE INDEED won.

Yeah, "9/11 changed EVERYTHING!!!" alright. I think we ought to start repeating that. ANYONE you know who blathers that at you, as some sort of plenary indulgence or free pass to let bush wipe his ass with the Constitution and Bill of Rights, the response should be "well, alright then. You're affirming that the terrorists HAVE INDEED won. And you're applauding it!" Although when I hear that, my response usually is - "yeah? Well, KATRINA changed it BACK!!!"

[KansDem]

107. Then we all become a potential "Moroccan waiter working in Norway..."

If Americans are no longer innocent until proven guilty, with a right to due process, then this is no longer america.

[TankLV]

70. Logical conclusion: Their heads are clearly completely up their asses

That is has been a given for a couple decades now, this is just more proof.

[lovuian]

7. In defense of the country ...Isn't that why we have policemen

and the FBI...

[0007]

24. Hitler had police and special investigation agencies like the FBI

and guess who made the laws?

Are you talking about "Law" or "Justice"?

[rman]

50. to kill *suspects*?

where being brown and reading left-leaning literature is enough ground to be found suspect..

[EST]

8. Much statistical evidence points to his (or his minions')

already having done so. The answer is "no!" Of course, if history is any indicator, this is a fait accompli; now they are just trying to find a way to justify what's already been done and is about to be discovered and illuminated.

[populistdriven]

9. I bet it has already been done - it will leak out... just give it time

I wonder what the public reaction will be?

[me b zola]

14. DiFi asked Negroponte about this in the hearings the other day

Negroponte hemmed & hawed, then said that he was not aware of any killings. This is just from memory, please, for chilling accuracy, look up the transcripts from the Senate hearings on intelligence.

[rooboy]

15. "Not that I'm aware of"... I think was the reply. Chilling indeed. n/t

[EFerrari]

18. I watched that. And, it seemed to me that I was watching

a theatrical piece all of a sudden. Made me wonder how much of these televised hearings are only for public consumption.

[me b zola]

23. Reminiscent of the theater of Iran Contra

"Made me wonder how much of these televised hearings are only for public consumption."

This thought occurs to me often while I watch c-span. The Congresspeople (as evidenced by their votes & deeds)who are truly working for the people that they represent seldom have a chance to question ANY evil doer under oath. The few that are of the people who do get an opportunity to question one of these fascist under oath will be slammed in the media for doing so.

[Zhade]

21. And, of course, she voted for him.

Worringly, so did Boxer! Not sure why.

[nookiemonster]

25. They'll worry about it later.

American Idol is just a wee bit more important.

:sarcasm:

[WinkyDink]

79. EVERY time, the exemplar of American duh-ness is "American Idol".

Well, I WATCH AI, and I'm as au courant politics-wise as y'all!! Marched in the pre-war and anti-Republican Convention NYC events! Worked the Kerry polls!

Could someone PLEASE use "Survivor" next time? Thanks!
(LOL.)

[greekspeak]

35. The librul media will drum up half dozen missing blondes

Before that, we can peel off 30% for the tireless base. Then a big chunk of what is left just will not care as long as what goes on does not affect them negatively. As long as they have their TVs and X-Boxes to keep them quiet, they will graze like good sheeple. And if ChimpsterCo packages it right, they could even make a "reality TV" series out of it and become national heroes.

[TankLV]

71. Only public reaction is if cable rates rise too much or they can't get

their MTV/ESPN or soaps.

[daleo]

10. Stalin and Hitler could order hits too. n/t

[BeHereNow]

11. Somehwere, in my dusty DU bookmarks, I have an article about this...

Something about the US granting Israel the power to
assassinate "enemies" on US soil.
Anyone remember that article?
I'm thinking it was around 2003.
BHN

[shockingelk]

12. Killing a terrorist ...

... without a court order to prevent an act of terrorism (Flight 93) is not the same thing as surveilling an American without a court order.

Oversight is the issue with one, saving lives the other.

[me b zola]

17. Until you are the onethat they declare is a terrorist

This is NOT about a plane that is KNOWN to be on a mission to committ a crime. This is about being able to MURDER people on American soil. This is also about the push for them rewriting the Fourth Amendment from "probable cause" to "reasonable cause".

[No Exit]

29. Precisely. For example, Michael Moore has been declared to be a

terrorist. (And let's not forget Jose Padilla--also a U.S. citizen.)

And the man who declared Moore a terrorist--a man who is in the pay of the administration--has not retracted that statement.

People who demonstrate are about to be declared terrorists, if the Patriot Act is renewed.

They deliberately keep open the definition (both the popular definition and the official definition) of "terrorist". They deliberately keep the definition blurry so that it can be applied to anyone they want it to apply to.

[CJCRANE]

43. Those Pakistanis villagers weren't too happy

when their houses were blasted to pieces as "suspected terrorists".

Palestinian women and children aren't too happy either when the IDF drops a bomb on an apartment block to get one member of Hamas.

What if you're in a car or building that's involved in a "targeted killing" (I think they're called in Israel).

[rman]

51. nor is it the same as killing a terrorist *suspect*

...of any kind, anywhere.

[struggle4progress]

89. Education chief calls teachers union 'terrorist organization'

http://www.usatoday.com/news/washington/2004-02-23-paige-remarks_x.htm

[FlaGranny]

103. They already are able to pick up an

American citizen and hold indefinitely for suspicion of terrorism. I guess shooting first and asking question slater would cost less money, but then you don't have a live person to interrogate. In addition, just being suspected of terrorism is not the same as being guilty of terrorism. The president needs no authority to order anyone assassinated.

[Name removed]

28. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Stand and Fight]

16. People -- pay attention to what you're reading!

The key term here is "terrorist suspects." Think about that for a minute. This justice department official has just suggested that George W. Bush, the current president, can order you being killed if he SUSPECTS you're a terrorist.

If this does not scare the hell out of people then nothing will.

[file83]

20. You're correct. One man's "suspect" is another man's "protester".

[TankLV]

72. Oh, it does, it does, and always has - with EVERYTHING these war criminals

have done.

But it's not me/us you should be talking to - it's the brain dead "good amerikkkans" and our so-called democratic "leadership" and elected officials. - THEY'RE the ones who will never get it until it is too late, as if it isn't too late already.

[Rex]

19. In America killing suspects now without a trial is the norm?

See what happens when you lose the 4th Amendment?

[sweetheart]

33. yea really

Police can shoot whomever they want
as long as their black with maybe a blunt,
And when they die, bulleted down
everyone will lie to say what went down,
more people killed in jackboot thug town.

[CJCRANE]

22. Why not just make * God of America? nt

[WinkyDink]

80. He isn't?

Hmph.

[Dover]

26. Yes he can and does. It's called the death penalty.

Apparently governors share that power.

[leftchick]

27. Isn't that the truth

:(

[CJCRANE]

31. But isn't the OP referring to extrajudicial killing? nt

[Dover]

34. A very thin line, indeed imo...n/t

[rman]

55. "terrorist" versus "terrorist suspect" is not a thin line

it is a very clear distinction.

[rman]

53. death penalty is not commonly given to *suspects*

[niyad]

84. the word is SUSPECTS, NOT "convicted and sentenced criminals-- do

you understand this? No trial, no proof, just SUSPICION.

governors are NOT allowed to execute anyone they damn well please, where in the HELL did you get that idea?

[leveymg]

30. NorthCom trains for scenarios such as this:

A group of 15 heavily-armed men have a nuclear weapon that they plan to set off. If SWAT teams attempted to arrest them, they'd set off the bomb. What do you do?

A terrorist group has set off a radiological dirty bomb near the White House. Police are unable or unwilling to approach the area. The President is alive in the basement bunker but being threatened by suicide commandos who have stormed the building. What do you do?

Yes, there are some very limited scenarios where the use of deadly force by military units might be appropriate inside the U.S. I can't think of many others off the top of my head.

[CJCRANE]

32. That is a police action situation

and comes under normal procedures.

I think the article is referring to a situation where the President says "go and kill so-and-so as I believe he's a terrorist".

The real worry here is that Bush believes that, just like the warrantless wiretapping, he can make these orders in secret and not have any oversight.

[Auntie Bush]

85. "The President is alive in the basement bunker but being threatened

by suicide commandos who have stormed the building. What do you do? "

NOTHING! Let them do their dirty work...then get them.

Really Agent Mike...I was only kidding...as I kick and scream and hold on to the door.

[leveymg]

93. That was Devil's Advocate, not Agent Mike speaking

Hard to tell them apart, sometimes. :evilgrin: B-)

[kineneb]

104. find VP, or next in line...

after all, isn't that what the Constitution is for??? President is replaceable.

[UL_Approved]

36. Yeah, this is a real gem

More crap that is coming out of the Patriot Act and the reinterpretation of Presidential powers. This is the next great line of stuff which is under scrutiny.

But let us remember: these questions were asked on record. After 9/11, no questioning was done. And this provision probably came about after the first Patriot Act was signed. The more that stuff gets pumped, the more that stuff gets found.

Never stop digging. Never.

[CJCRANE]

38. Um, notice the pattern: black ops => official policy

There's a pattern here. Tactics previously used sparingly by covert ops being promoted as legal and routine:

Detention without trial
Kidnapping ("Extraordinary Renditions")
Torture
Extrajudical Killing

The worst case scenario: predator drones in American cities. It's unlikely but it's the logical conclusion if American citizens and Pakistani villagers are equally expendable as "suspected terrorists".

[TankLV]

75. Small correction: "extraordinary rendition" refers to the "torture" part,

not the "kidnapping" part.

Got to get our new dictionairies soon.

[MisterP]

109. "justice from above," like Election Day '02 in Yemen?

[robbedvoter]

39. Yes, in the interest of national security. Torturing, jailing for life and

persecution of large groups are included in those priviledges.
Ain't national security grand? All rights and no responsibilities whatsoever.
Not one grunt was sacked after 911.

[Festivito]

40. Can/May himself/object on/over our soil. But, must fear justice.

As our representative he has some right of self defence. But, he would not be above the law. He would be subject to Congress, and further, we the people.

Clinton ordered the death of Osama binladen. He'd need to have consulted members of Congress and made his case to the people.

It's a serious act. Both sides, the representative and the dead deserve judicial review. The one who signs had better have their ducks in a row.

[Rene]

41. And I believe they definitely HAVE !

[no_hypocrisy]

42. Don't you remember? Congress said he could do whatever

he wanted to do in order to fight "the war".

[CJCRANE]

45. He is God of America

All-seeing, All-knowing with the power of life and death.

[no_hypocrisy]

52. Amen, brother. Amen.

[formercia]

44. "Poppy" Bush tried to have someone killed

for supposedly being a threat to National Security. Turned out the guy was innocent. Nothing like due process.

[dysfunctional press]

46. this one can...whose to stop him?

it's not like there's an opposition party.

[tanyev]

47. Can he use his Saddam Hussein souvenir handgun

and do the deed himself?

[TankLV]

77. I wonder if some photographer/journalist will capture the moment

like the one from the president of vietnam.

I'm sure bunkerboy and the repukes are just CHAFFING under the collar to do just that.

And this time around, patsie robertson and his fellow "christians" will be cheering in the streets.

I can just see the music and logos the networks will create for this...

[rman]

48. guilty and sentenced to death untill proven innocent

up = down

"Minority Report" has become reality.

[Earth_First]

49. So now you can have your mail intercepted, telephone/email wiretapped...

political affiliation groups infiltrated, placed into newly comissioned detention centers, and SHOT if you are SUSPECTED of terrorist activity.

WTF, folks! How anyone can support this is beyond me.

[kurth]

54. Sure. Just like in Godfather.

Don Corleone would have been proud.

[leesa]

57. He has declared he can break the law whenever he wants. He said so

in a 42 page document week before last. He can break the law whenever he wants because we're at war and he's the CIC and we'll be at war forever. SUCKERS.

[Vidar]

58. This one can and does.

[The Backlash Cometh]

59. Oh, man. If I were a Quaker, I'd be shitting bricks right now.

Or a PETA member, or a member of an environmental group or a Catholic organization that promotes the welfare of the poor.

[LeftyMom]

105. Consider bricks shat

:scared:

[Rene]

60. I don't think they need to be labeled 'terrorists'...just enemies

of bushco......i.e. the media journalist who had recently published the bush twin drunken photos was mysteriously anthraxed all over his keyboard.
the author writing an expose about "the octopus"(which I think is the Carlysle group/neocons/abramoff link) was mysteriously suicided in his hotel room; his laptop and briefcase with all his notes, that he always kept with him, disappeared.

and s e v e r a l people in small planes that mysteriously crashed at opportune times for bushco et all.

[AngryOldDem]

61. This is just one dangerous legacy of the Bush administration

It's called, "I'm The President, So I Can Do Whatever I Damn Well Please."

As bad as Bush is, I can envision scenarios where it is a LOT worse, thanks to his example of blatant disregard of separation of powers and everything else this government was founded on. And once the door is opened, it cannot be closed.

[BiggJawn]

62. Why not? his DAD did...

JFK,(Bay of Pigs) RFK,(wouldn't take a hint) The attempted whack on Gerry Ford (he was on the Warren Commission) Ronaldus Rex (impatience)...

And Nixon. "Somebody ought to shoot that so-bitch....Where's Liddy going?"

Now, if the question is "Can the President LEGALLY order the murder of someone..." I think not.
But the PretzelDunce may think differently, "Deveined Right of Kings" and all that.

[Poll_Blind]

64. If Israel can do it, why not the Murderous George? (link to story inside)

Israel to kill on U.S., allies'' soil

PB

[MisterP]

110. ah, there's the story

some here said we should THANK Israel for whacking the Iraq-railgun guy because the Allan Parsons Project in Moon Unit Zappa would destroy a major city ever 24 hours unless they got $1,000,000...

[Broadslidin]

65. Remembering Sen. Paul Wellstone and The Anthrax Murders........

Fully understanding our Malignant Pathological Narcissist leader.

[Pavulon]

66. Illegal combatants

Are not subject to the same protections as citizens. Agents of foreign powers are subject to indefinite detention, and execution. This has been the case for hundreds of years.

Copperheads were treated to this in the US Civil war.

This would not be a law enforcement action but a military action. I would be surprised is it is not happening now.

How it is carried out and who is targeted is the key issue.

[TankLV]

78. Except these are AMERICAN CITIZENS until bunkerboy declares they aren't.

This is NOTHING like ANYTHING that has been done in the past.

YOU are part of the problem of why this is allowed to exist.

YOU are the problem.

[Pavulon]

94. You are incorrect.

If I tap that little bell, I can send you to a place where you will never again hear the dogs bark.

Secretary of War Stanton (Union-US Civil War)

I am informed, I do not pretend that executive power is something used in the last 6 years. All presidents, even ones we do not like, have the authority granted by the office.

Dealing with people who are foreign agents has been done for a very long time.

I was not alive in 1864.

[MilesColtrane]

91. excerpt of Ex Parte Milligan delivered by Justice David Davis (my notes)

"The illustrious men who framed that instrument (the Constitution) were guarding the foundations of civil liberty against the abuses of unlimited power; they were full of wisdom, and the lessons of history informed them that a trial by an established court, assisted by an impartial jury, was the only sure way of protecting the citizen against oppression and wrong. Knowing this, they limited the suspension to one great right, (writ of habeas corpus) and left the rest to remain forever inviolable."
(one of the rest being due process which you aren't getting if you are executed with no trial)

[LisaL]

67. Order a killing of a terrorist suspect?

Like they do in Iraq? The intelligence indicates suspect is going to be in the mall tomorrow? Lets bomb the hell out of the mall!

[Pavulon]

68. More like

Shoot the person in the head with a suppressed handgun, take their wallet and leave some coke.

SOP drug related killing.

[MilesColtrane]

69. Apparently, the State can kill a U.S. citizen on foreign soil...

It happened in Yemen in 2002. So why not in the United States?
Well there's this little ole thing called the Fifth Amendment to the Constitution, and it says the only exception for due process applies to members of the military during war or public danger.
It doesn't say anything about a person's legal status, (citizen, immigrant, or foreign national) it just says "person".
This is illegal, unconstitutional, and Anti-American.

[WinkyDink]

83. This is illegal, unconstitutional, and Anti-American.

And your point is....??

<sarcasm>

[IndianaGreen]

76. Bush can have death squads operating in the US

and the Democrats won't do shit about it! Why? Because the Democratic Party has not called for Bush's impeachment and, in failing to do so, have given the imprimatur to Bush's dictatorship to do whatever it wants, wherever it wants, whenever it wants.

I you value liberty, you must demand Bush's impeachment.

[lumpy]

86. They killed a Brazilian 'suspect' in London

didn't they.

[EFerrari]

96. Right Who didn't stop for the police, wore a big coat and

resisted -- until that all turned out to be a pack of lies. ;(

[struggle4progress]

90. Membership of the Senate Intelligence Committee

http://intelligence.senate.gov/members.htm

[reprobate]

92. Please tell us where in the constiturion or US law it says the

president can order ANYONE killed! We used to be a nation of law, not one man rule.

This traitor must be impeached. Remove him from control of anything but the pigs on his Crawford farm.

[Protagoras]

98. He can do anything he wants...just ask him.

I'm pretty sure the title President pisses him off though...he'd really prefer it if you'd call him King or Emperor.

He can do whatever he wants because there is no other branch of government or people in positions of power who are willing to step up to stop him.

And that's how screwed we are atm.

[populistdriven]

100. BUSH IS TERRORIST SUSPECT #1

[Lisa]

101. uh -- didn't you guys fight a revolution just to get away from this?

Divine Right of Kings, etc.?

p.s. perhaps those various "scenarios" describing it could be shopped to a TV show such as "24"? I'm curious what in all they came up with ... very convoluted, I'm sure!

[Javaman]

102. So pResident jackass* is now judge, jury AND executioner. Lovely. n/t