Muslims react to Hamza conviction (BBC)

[Cessna Invesco Palin]

Muslim leaders have welcomed the conviction of controversial cleric Abu Hamza al-Masri for inciting murder and stirring up racial hatred.

Prominent British Muslim Dr Ghayasuddin Siddiqui described Abu Hamza as "an embarrassment to the Muslim community" of this country.

He was an "arrogant, illiterate person, with no knowledge of Islam", he said.

But the chairman of the Islamic Human Rights Commission, Massoud Shadjareh, said Abu Hamza had been "demonised".

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/4690132.stm

[adriennui]

1. this is good news

the moderate muslims need to speak before their voices get drowned out by the wackos.

hamza had islington in chaos while he preached his hate.

[Cessna Invesco Palin]

2. It's interesting.

A month ago, posting this article on DU would have released a torrent of responses about Tony Blair's hideous terrorism policies. Since the publication of those infernal cartoons (and the reaction to them) peoples' attitudes seem to have changed. I, for one, am happy to see Hamza go. It's difficult to explain to people in the US exactly how mainstream radical Islam is in Europe. There's really nobody like Hamza doing that sort of thing openly in the US.

[Taxloss]

4. I've seen the same.

It's taken a time but American DUers seem to be realising that we have face-to-face experience of radical Islam and appreciate the societal difficulties that it creates. The absence of mainstream ISlam in the USA is a considerable hindrance to constructive debate there, on both sides.

[Ms. Clio]

30. For one thing, some of us are just sick and tired

of trying to deal with the bigoted racist cesspool this place has become. I've read posts in the last few days that could have been written by Daniel Pipes or any fucking ignorant freeper. It's revolting, and I for one am so disgusted I just don't even try to respond to it anymore.

I think that more importantly, a large proportion of much more influential voices has been lost to other places, and I can certainly understand why.

[wtmusic]

3. it remains to be seen

whether this will calm things down or fan the flames of hatred.

onedit: it should make everyone concerned that anyone is being jailed for the words they speak.

[Cessna Invesco Palin]

5. Why?

onedit: it should make everyone concerned that anyone is being jailed for the words they speak.

Why should it concern me that someone who was commiting a speicific crime is in jail for commiting that crime? Freedom of speech has NEVER included the right to incite people to violence.

[wtmusic]

6. because the charges were "using words to stir up racial hatred"

That's not a crime in the US, and it shouldn't be.

[Cessna Invesco Palin]

9. Oh really?

Incitement to murder isn't a crime in the US? That's news to me.

[wtmusic]

11. That was one of the charges

and a just one. Hamza belongs in jail.

But "intent to incite racial hatred"? That's supression of free speech, pure and simple, and will only solidify Muslim extremism.

[Cessna Invesco Palin]

12. Eight of the charges, actually.

And he was found guilty of six of the eight charges of soliciting to murder.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/4690078.stm

[wtmusic]

14. Oh, so having 8 incitement charges

justifies those for "insulting behaviour"...got it :crazy:

[seriousstan]

15. Since your having trouble understanding, here are the charges and results.

Soliciting to murder. On a day before May 27 2004 at a public meeting, did solicit or encourage persons unknown to murder another person or persons, namely a person or persons who did not believe in the Islamic faith. Guilty



Soliciting to murder. On a day before May 27 2004 at a public meeting, did solicit or encourage persons unknown to murder another person or persons, namely a person or persons who did not believe in the Islamic faith. Guilty

Soliciting to murder. On a day before May 27 2004 at a public meeting, did solicit or encourage persons unknown to murder another person or persons, namely a person or persons who did not believe in the Islamic faith, in particular Jewish people. Guilty

Using threatening, abusive or insulting words or behaviour. On a day before May 27 2004 used threatening, abusive or insulting words or behaviour with intent to stir up racial hatred, or in circumstance where racial hatred was likely to be stirred up thereby. Guilty

Soliciting to murder. On a day before May 27 2004 at a public meeting, did solicit or encourage persons unknown to murder another person or persons, namely a person or persons who did not believe in the Islamic faith. Guilty

Soliciting to murder. On a day before May 27 2004 at a public meeting, did solicit or encourage persons unknown to murder another person or persons, namely a person or persons who did not believe in the Islamic faith. Not guilty

Soliciting to murder. On a day before May 27 2004 at a public meeting, did solicit or encourage persons unknown to murder another person or persons, namely a person or persons who did not believe in the Islamic faith. Guilty

Soliciting to murder. On a day before May 27 2004 at a public meeting, did solicit or encourage persons unknown to murder another person or persons, namely a person or persons who did not believe in the Islamic faith. Guilty

Soliciting to murder. On a day before May 27 2004 at a public meeting, did solicit or encourage persons unknown to murder another person or persons, namely a person or persons who did not believe in the Islamic faith, in particular Jewish people. Not guilty

Using threatening, abusive or insulting words or behaviour. On a day before May 27 2004 used threatening, abusive or insulting words or behaviour with intent to stir up racial hatred, or in circumstance where racial hatred was likely to be stirred up thereby. Guilty

Soliciting to murder. On a day before May 27 2004 on an occasion other than Count 9, at a public meeting, did solicit or encourage persons unknown to murder another person or persons, namely a person or persons who did not believe in the Islamic faith, in particular Jewish people. Not guilty

Using threatening, abusive or insulting words or behaviour. On a day before May 27 2004 on an occasion other than Count 10, used threatening, abusive or insulting words or behaviour with intent to stir up racial hatred, or in circumstance where racial hatred was likely to be stirred up thereby. Not guilty

Using threatening, abusive or insulting words or behaviour. On a day before May 27 2004 used threatening, abusive or insulting words or behaviour with intent to stir up racial hatred, or in circumstance where racial hatred was likely to be stirred up thereby. Guilty

Possession of threatening, abusive or insulting recordings of sound. On May 27 2004 had in his possession recordings, namely audio and video tapes which were threatening, abusive or insulting with a view to its being distributed, shown or played, whether by himself or another, with intent to stir up racial hatred, or in circumstances where racial hatred was likely to be stirred up thereby. Guilty

Possession of a document or record containing information of a kind likely to be useful to a person committing or preparing an act of terrorism. On May 27 2004 had in his possession a document, namely the Encyclopaedia of the Afghan Jihad which contained information of a kind likely to be useful to a person committing or preparing an act of terrorism. Guilty

[wtmusic]

21. actually, in your frenzy to cut and paste the entire list

of charges, you missed the entire point of my post.

That nothing justifies being charged for "insulting behavior". Unless, of course, you think Carter should have been charged yesterday. :eyes:

[Cessna Invesco Palin]

22. Obviously you haven't read the statute. n/t

[muriel_volestrangler]

16. Summary of the charges and convictions

Guilty on 6 counts of soliciting murder
Not guilty on 3 counts of soliciting murder
Guilty on 3 counts of threatening, abusive or insulting behaviour with intent to stir up racial hatred
Not guilty on 1 count of threatening, abusive or insulting behaviour with intent to stir up racial hatred
Guilty on 1 count of possessing threatening, abusive or insulting recordings with intent to stir up racial hatred
Guilty on 1 count of possessing information likely to be used in an act of terrorism

If your eyes were straight, you'd have been able to read that link, wouldn't you?

[Taxloss]

26. Ye gods, wtmusic, will you stop at nothing to defend this man?

Have you actually read any of what he has said? Here's a few juicy cuts:

He fell out heavily with mainstream Muslims, who believe he has done Islam enormous harm in Britain. The Allah portrayed by Abu Hamza was a vengeful God. In one sermon, he suggested that the Russian submariners who perished under water in 2000 and the victims of Chernobyl were part of Allah's revenge for Russian military activities in Chechnya.

The Columbia space shuttle disaster he also saw as divine retribution. "No drop of liquid is loved by Allah more than the liquid of blood," he told a rally in Birmingham in the late 90s. "Whether you do it by a lamb or you do it by a Serb, you do it by a Jew or do it by an enemy of Allah. That drop of blood is very dear. If you want to apply justice you must have a sword - when you go to court, who you going to see? A woman with a scale in her hand. What's in the other hand? A pint of lager? A sword."

The focus of his attacks, however, remained the Jews and Israel. "We do not hate Jews because they hurt each other, we hate them for their corruption of the earth," he said in one sermon. "So nation of Muhammad must regain their dignity and this dignity would not be regained unless with blood, the blood of the atheists or the blood of the Muslims, a sacrifice in the cause of God."

He attacked political leaders on both sides of the Atlantic and called the late Robin Cook "the man from the country which planted the Jews in our land, crawling on his hands and knees to the Middle East to mediate to stop this intifada. They all know their roles as they are slaves of the Jews ... they hate the Jews more than we do, but the Jews own them."

http://www.guardian.co.uk/terrorism/story/0,,1704307,00.html

He is a loathesome individual who repeatedly called for the deaths of people in my city. Pat Robertson may be horrible, but he looks like Mother Theresa compared to Hamza.

[wtmusic]

27. Not defending him at all

Attempting to defend the right of anyone to insult anyone else or express (non-threatening) opinions without being arrested for it.

I'd have no personal problem with locking up every member of White Aryan Nation and throwing away the key. I'd have a big legal problem with it.

[Taxloss]

28. Hamza was distinctly, robustly and repeatedly VERY threatening.

He routinely endorsed terrorism and violence. He is a thug and I am pleased that he is going to jail.

[TechBear_Seattle]

7. The difference between Islam and Christianity

If Pat Robertson had been charged with stirring up violence because of his call for terrorist acts against San Francisco, the US' Christian leaders would have started screaming, "Religious persecution! See how the secular society hates us for speaking God's Holy Word!!!"

[wtmusic]

8. That's more the difference between the US and GB

He wouldn't be charged for that here.

[Cessna Invesco Palin]

10. What Hamza did...

...goes far beyond anything Robertson has ever done.

[wtmusic]

23. What Robertson did

was call for an assassination. Some might consider that "incitement to murder". I certainly do.

[genie_weenie]

13. no because Robertson is in the US and this was in the UK

And in the British Commonwealth plenty of "Chrisitian" leaders have been arrested and charged on this *crime*?

[muriel_volestrangler]

17. The leader of the British National Party has just been on trial

for incitement to racial hatred. On some charges he was found not guilty, on others they couldn't reach a verdict, and there will be a retrial. He claimed that the Koran allowed the rape of non-Muslim women, and that Muslims are systematically raping 'white' women in order to have mixed babies born that will be 'rejected' by white culture, and thus become Mulsim. You see that he thinks 'white' is the opposite to 'Muslim', which is why the racial hatred charges were brought.

Robertson, if I remember correctly, said something like "if there are terrorist strikes in San Francisco, they shouldn't expect help from the rest of the country". That's not in the same league as Hamza's "you should stab them, poison them, whatever you can do".

[TechBear_Seattle]

18. My point was not the difference between the US and UK justice system

My point was the difference between the sensible reactions to Hamza's conviction on charges of inciting violence, and the over-the-top reaction that would without a doubt occur if Robertson were convicted on similar charges.

[Cessna Invesco Palin]

19. Actually the SF thing was O'Reilly.

Robertson suggested that Chavez should be assasinated.

[genie_weenie]

31. Robertson also suggested

that Dover County Penn was going to be obliterated by God because the rejected ID, and that Sharon suffered his stroke because he tried to partition God's land and that the recent spate of hurricanes natural diasters was due to the end times a-coming.

2000+ years without the Return of the Messiah.... Hell, we only had to wait 16 years for the Return of the Star Wars Triology, let's hope Jesus' return isn't so anti-climatic as the 3 new Star Wars films...

[Taxloss]

24. The Muslim community in the UK has condemned Hamza.

So I don't see the parallel.

[Igel]

29. I'm unclear on the circumstances of

Hamza's being removed from a position of authority in the Finsbury Mosque. I'm vaguely aware that he preached outside for a while, didn't he?

I'm fairly sure I read today that the authorities broke down the mosque door to remove the stuff they found. But did he intimidate the Muslims that frequented that mosque and force them to store it for him, or just dupe them?

"The Muslims" is too broad a term for me here, and having the timing be explicit is necessary. If he preached for years and other imams and mosque attendees apart from his own congregation were unaware of what he said, good-citizen points should be awarded to those who condemned him. If he was considered a good Muslim while preaching folly, and the condemnations occurred only when what he was preaching became known to a wider audience, at a minimum no points should be awarded (and maybe some should be subtracted).

I'm all for subgroups in society exerting peer pressure over members of their groups. Xians routinely do it, within a denomination. A strong peer culture that rejects binge drinking or smoking will be more effective than lectures from outside the peer culture. Anything that diminishes prestige is a powerful tools within a peer network.

[Taxloss]

32. The mosque was closed in 2003 in a whirlwind of scandal.

The Charities Commission withdrew the mosque's status and I think the first Special Branch raid and enforced closure. I think it has been closed ever since.

As for the condemnation, pretty much all mainstream Muslim organisations and MPs in the UK have condemned Hamza.

Most of this information is archived here:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/terrorism/0,,873826,00.html

But seriously, he's "got form" as we say here.

[QC]

25. You didn't read the article, did you?

You might find this passage interesting:

But a worshipper at the Finsbury Park Mosque, Omar Faruk, said Islam allowed for people to fight against foreign oppression in Muslim countries such as Iraq and Afghanistan and he defended Abu Hamza's right to speak up on behalf of oppressed Muslims.

"People like Abu Hamza, they don't mess about, they tell you what's in the Koran. He's been held accountable for what's in the Koran," he said.

Sounds much like the reaction you ascribe to "US Christian leaders." Muslims and Christians are not monoliths: some Muslims are glad Hamza is going to jail and others defend him, just as some Christians support Robertson and others consider him a disgrace.

[MrPrax]

20. Good...

Like the Muslims in the UK, a lot of people are wondering exactly WHY the British bLiar gov't is so obsessed with national ID, retina scanning school kids, obstructing the right to protest, but seem to have ignored the rather flagrant spectacle of this man standing in public parks and calling for a civil war in Britain.

I guess the creep is no longer needed to inflame the public anymore...