Motorcycle Club Blocks Protesters (Phelps)

[BR_Parkway]

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/02/18/AR2006021801422.html?nav=rss_nation

Sunday, February 19, 2006; Page A09

FORT CAMPBELL, Ky., Feb. 18 -- Wearing leather chaps and vests covered in military patches, a band of motorcyclists rolls from one service member's funeral to another in hopes their respectful cheers and revving engines will drown out the insults of protesters.

Calling themselves the Patriot Guard Riders, they are made up of motorcycle club members who could no longer tolerate a Kansas-based fundamentalist church demonstrating at military funerals with signs reading, "Thank God for IEDs ." The bikers shield the families from the protesters and overshadow the jeers with patriotic chants and a display of red-white-and-blue flags.

"The most important thing we can do is let families know that the nation cares," said Don Woodrick, the group's Kentucky captain. "When a total stranger gets on a motorcycle in the middle of winter and drives 300 miles to hold a flag, that makes a powerful statement."

Across the nation, Patriot Guard riders number more than 5,000, and at least 14 states are considering laws aimed specifically at the funeral protest group led by the Rev. Fred Phelps, who believes U.S. deaths in Iraq are divine punishment for a country that, he says, harbors homosexuals.

[Vidar]

1. Good for the bikers.

[0007]

2. Yikes! What's the good Reverend Freddie Phelps gonna do now?

Love to see a few of those sissy bikers extract the snot from Freddie baby.

[BR_Parkway]

3. What's he gonna do? Chickenhawk - now that the tough talk might have

to get backed up, he's going to run - just like all the other people who support this crap.

I want to see ads run by DNC and whoever else this year with Phelps & Pat Robertson and that whole group of phony KKKristians spewing their most hateful garbage and linking them to the Repugs, just rip the bandage back and expose the shit festering in the wound they've tried to inflict on America.

[0007]

7. 0h, those chicken hawk chicken shit motherfuckers will run alright

and resort to Eric Rudolph type tactics or Ted Kaczynski (The Unibomber).




[Warpy]

9. he's being funded by the anti first amendment crowd in the GOP

I'm sure of it. The major effect he's had is to get local laws passed restricting free speech. Sure, they're selectively banning protests within a certain distance of a funeral, but we all know once those bastards start to chip away at a constitutional freedom, we can pretty much kiss it goodbye.

The fourth amendment is an example. The drug war weakened it considerably, and now the Patriot Acts have killed it.

What we need are sympathetic police who would leave Phelps to do "crowd control" elsewhere, allow a few of the local lads to teach him a lesson. If he survived it, perhaps he'd be a little more prudent, no matter how lavishly some anti American bastards are footing his bills.

[Evergreen Emerald]

66. you may be on to something.

I was also trying to figure out the angle. It smells funny to me.

[proud2BlibKansan]

133. He's a registered Dem and was a big Gore supporter

I doubt the GOP is funding him.

[Capn Sunshine]

156. where did you get THAT?

Phelps et al are fundies of the worst ilk; those guys are convinced the Democratic party worships Satan. seriously.

Are you confusing him with laRousch?

[tenshi816]

157. I don't know if Phelps was truly a Gore supporter,

but I Googled it and did find a couple of pictures of them together here: http://ussneverdock.blogspot.com/2005/07/america-deranged-funeral-update.html The site the photos are on is a RW one so I didn't hang around long enough to get the backstory behind the pictures.

[proud2BlibKansan]

162. I live in Kansas

and have been aware of Phelps for many years now. That's where I got that.

Yes, he is a Dem. From Wikipedia:
"In the 1980s, the Phelps family were strong political allies with then-senator Al Gore. The home of Fred Jr., Phelps' eldest son, located in the Westboro compound, acted as Gore's campaign quarters for one of his senate races, and the Westboro compound was host to a fundraiser. Numerous photos exist on the internet of Fred Phelps Jr. and his second wife, Betty Phelps-Schurle, posing with Al and Tipper Gore in Phelps Jr.'s home. Phelps also served as a Gore delegate on the floor of the Democratic National Convention in Atlanta in 1988. <66>"
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rev._Fred_Phelps#Political_affiliations

[Maraya1969]

4. God Bless them. I hope this starts a movement.

Phelps needs to be shut down and what better way then some loud bikes spewing exhaust fumes in their faces.

[Maraya1969]

5. Even Freepers are joining in! We can unite for the truth.

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1546831/posts

[Buns_of_Fire]

38. Good for them. They apparently have as much love for Phred as I do.

:thumbsup: <-- No, I never thought I'd do that...

[mom cat]

79. The only one who loves Phred is Phred himself.

[Catfight]

6. I hope they send nasty exhaust right into the faces of that whole

hateful family. It's be great if they peeled out and threw up dirt, stones, exhaust at those homophobic hate mongers.

[leveymg]

8. They're all nuts

The bikers, the Fundies, and the state legislators passing laws against nuts protesting each other.

God save America from saving itself.

[saigon68]

10. You are right the Bikers are as bad as Phelps

Low life knuckle draggers

Wait til they whip up on a few antiwar protesters with their chain belts and bust open a few peacenik heads

They are FASCIST BROWN SHIRTS

Some of my friends saw their Nazi tactics

In fact the idiots at FR still praise their actions at kicking the SHIT out of anti-War protesters.

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1535708/posts

To: Sensei Ern

History channel had a show on the Hells Angel's. The best part was when the Hells Angel's beat the hell out of the Vietnam war protesters in Berkley/Oakland. The protesters assumed the Hells Angels were on their side, they assumed wrong.

39 posted on 12/08/2005 5:48:40 AM PST by dc27
[ Post Reply | Privat

[azureblue]

12. You are wrong

Apologize for your stupid stereotyping. My banker is a vet biker- got $16,000 in that Harley. My bro is a biker- heads a Christian Biker's group that thinks phelps hates soldiers.

[saigon68]

13. Never

[PsN2Wind]

19. Your banker and brother

would probably be better described as motorcycle entusiasts. Biker has a different connotation. Hells Angels, Banditos, Comancheros, Gypsy Jokers, Free Souls, etc. are bikers. Few of them are bankers.

[Solo_in_MD]

24. Your bias is showing

There are very very few biker gang members. The ones blocking Phelps and crew are regular riders who object to what he does. If he comes to my area, I am one of those signed up to block him.

[BikeWriter]

90. I'm neither Hells Angel nor Bandito...

I will say they are increasingly legitimate.

[PsN2Wind]

92. "Increasingly legitimate"

Is meth a legal commodity where you live?

[BikeWriter]

96. That question assumes far too much...

The hard core bikers I know want no part of it.

[PsN2Wind]

107. Maybe "those you know"

but just Google meth and your biker group of choice.

[oneighty]

15. Just because they got

a throbbing hot engine between their legs do not make them smart. Or kind. Or friendly.

Beware the biker man. One can never tell what gifts he/she might be carrying.

180

[ret5hd]

18. See the guy in this pic?

his name is Sputnik, founder of the Texas Motorcycle Rights Association. He has the word "FREE" tattooed on his forehead. A Korean War vet (like my father). He left most of his right hand there, as you can tell from the pic if you look closely.

when he was getting TMRA off the ground, the only openly gay member of the TX house kind of took him under his wing, showed him the processes for getting bills introduced, on the calendar, etc.

In 2002, i had the priveledge of helping to organize a Progressive/Labor/Dem rally in Fort Worth. Sputnik and affiliated/non-affiliated bikers showed up. He gave one of the best speeches of the day, very rousing. I also had pics (can't find today) of Sputnik and the president of the local "Stonewall" chapter (the national gay group) standing and discussing legislative issues that they had in common, and just generally shooting the shit.

Your stereotypes of bikers are ludicrous. Like any group (present company included) some are assholes...some are pretty damn good guys.

[gr8dane_daddy]

21. I agree.

Stereotyping of bikers is just ludicrous. My band has played for many biker events (poker runs, etc.) benefitting children organizations, battered women shelters, and food banks. To stereotype them as the derelicts of society due to the actions of a few is ridiculous. Next you'll be telling me my music is all devil worshipping.

[Scout1071]

34. Agreed. KC area bikers have raised more than $2 million for babies.

March of Dimes ride every year. This year's ride raised $432,000, despite Level 3 storms on the day of the event.

By and large, the bikers I have met have been really good people.

http://www.marchofdimeskc.org/

[saigon68]

35. Most of these hoodlums arerepukes

Who support the chimpanzee and are pro-war

[Posteritatis]

39. If that's the case, then it's still a matter of broken clocks

If some guys want to prevent some bigoted jackass from cheering on the death of soldiers at their own funerals, then more power to them.

There is such a thing as going too far, and Phelps personifies that. I mind a bunch of guys trying to prevent him from doing his stuff not one bit.

[OldLeftieLawyer]

52. I disagree

These guys are violating Phelps' right to free speech, as abhorrent as it is, and I think they ought to be arrested.

The most disgusting speech is the kind that requires the most protection if we are all to enjoy free speech.

[roguevalley]

53. I consider their 'protesting' to be akin to shouting fire ina

crowded theater. There seems to be more rights for assholes screaming their hate at innocent people than innocent people being protected against assault. I consider these freaks as committing assault. Go, bikers.

[OldLeftieLawyer]

58. No, their protests are not like shouting "fire'

Their protests are free speech, pure and simple. Much like the planned march in Skokie back in the seventies. You may not like what they're doing, but, as I said, and as our Constitution makes abundantly clear, hateful speech is just as protected as speech of what you may approve.

It's not about what others think of the speech - it's the speech itself.

And, in my opinion, this nonsense getting so much time and attention is just another BushCo red herring. It's a minor matter.

[AwakeAtLast]

56. I am not going to argue with you

but I see it a little differently. It seems that these people are protecting
the grieving families, not hindering free speech. The Phelps group still gets
to spout their views, but the family is being shielded from hearing it. To me
it is the same as shielding a woman seeking an abortion from the same kind of
free speech as she enters the clinic.

Just my $.02.

[OldLeftieLawyer]

59. No, of course we're not arguing -

we're discussing, and apparently, we see the matter differently. I sure do understand.

I have no interest in anyone's family, truth be told, but I do have an interest in protecting free speech. If someone decides - and I fully agree - that what the Phelps family does is disgusting, take them to court. Sue them. Arrest them. Find a legal remedy.

Trying to intimidate someone into silence because you disagree with them is the worst form of behavior, and does not comport with a free society.

If private indivuals can be silenced by a group, who's next?

And who decides who gets to speak and who doesn't?

Free is free, and there are a host of remedies available to aggrieved family members in a situation like this. There are a host of fixes that could be made that could effectively neuter the Phelps family. This biker nonsense is nothing but vigilantes taking the matter into their own hands, and, if you look closely, they're acting exactly as the gaybashers do. They don't like what someone is doing, so they try to punish them.

It's tricky, but without free speech - which has had a lot of big holes stomped in it by this alleged administration - we're lost.

[pop goes the weasel]

67. it's not freedom of speech at issue

What Phleps is doing is intimidating private individuals performing a private act. The people he is hurting have no power to change federal policies, and may not even have agreed with the decision of the deceased to join the military. They are not even in the process of performing a ehtically or legally objectionable act. They are simply making their final good-bye, an act that we all do with our deceased loved ones. And what Phelps is protesting against has no relation except in his warped mind with the funerals. He is protesting against gay people existing. I'd see the connection if he was protesting outside a gay bar. Or if he was protesting outside city hall. Or protesting in front of a TV station airing a program he considered pro-gay. I'd still think he was a monster, but at least he'd be targetting the people who have someting to do with his issue instead of hurting befuddled mourners. If what Phelps is doing is freedom of speech, then the next time the kids across the street blast their bass so hard it rattles my dishes, they can just tell the cops that they are protesting legislative earmarks and bother the neighborhood all night.

[OldLeftieLawyer]

69. You're wrong

There's absolutely no requirement that the Phelps characters and their invective have to have any connection to the event taking place. None. Zip. Nada.

It's free speech, and I wrote all about it in the previous post.

If your neighborhood kids blast their bass, you can call the cops and they have noise ordinances to enforce. It's hardly free speech.

If speech isn't free for Fred Phelps et al., it's not free for anyone. Keep that in mind.

[pop goes the weasel]

78. Oh, I get it

All that has to be done to shut Phelps up is for communities to enact strict noise ordinances around cemetaries. Interesting, but strange.

[OldLeftieLawyer]

83. No, you didn't get it,

but your mind is made up on this matter, so I'll just wish you well.

[saigon68]

85. I get it

Phelps has a right to say do anything he wants.

These laws being passed by the pukes and some idiots like DINO Doyle in my state are unconstitutional

Just imagine if upheld, they would restrict the usual gang of idiots from picketing the abortion clinic down the street from me

[OldLeftieLawyer]

89. Sorry

No, Phelps does not have that right.

I don't know what state you're in or what laws you're talking about. I'm talking about the First Amendment to our Constitution.

I don't know what the picketers are doing, but they're already been given a restricted mandate to protest at abortion clinics.

I'll say it again: loathesome speech is the kind that requires the most protecting if we are all to enjoy free speech.

Do you get that part of it? It's the basis of our freedom of speech.

[420inTN]

142. First Amendement: "Congress shall pass no laws... "

Are any of these bikers Congresspersons?

[OldLeftieLawyer]

149. Huh?

What does THAT mean?

:shrug:

[420inTN]

152. It means (and as a lawyer you should know)...

that the first Amendment restricts what the government can do, not what I can do. If I can shout louder than you, so that you are not heard, I am not restricting your first amendment rights.

[pop goes the weasel]

121. actually

Since you are a lawyer, I was expecting that you would explain how the one things differs from the other, rather than simply, as you have up to now, asserting that they are different. Hell, I already know I can call the police on my noisy neighbors. If I'm walking down the street, and some nutjob starts following me and screaming invective, I can call the police. I want to know why people can't call the police on Phelps. Simply saying that they can't and that what Phelps is doing is free speech is not an explanation. What if my neighbors point out that they have been blasting music with an anti-drug policy message and were simply exercising their free speech? What if the nutjob hollering invective at me was screaming about gays destroying this country? If I wanted to set up shop outside a rightwing church and use bullhorns to denounce Bush while their service is going on, is that OK? If someone wants to use bullhorns to support Bush while the Unitarians are conducting their service, is that OK? Is the only difference between being a public nuisance and free speech whether or not someone has a particular ax to grind?

But I guess you won't answer, since your mind is made up.

[DiverDave]

147. Free Society?

that state of our union is sick and dieing.

What kind of world are we giving to our children?

[CBHagman]

95. No, they're just not giving him carte blanche to be a jerk.

They're not barring the Phelpses and their ilk; they're just providing some competition.

There's a huge difference between holding, say, a moon-the-Klan demonstration (described by Molly Ivins) and escorting the Klan into a church to disrupt the proceedings. If Phelps can't take it, he shouldn't have signed on to this.

[OldLeftieLawyer]

101. Competition?

They would be there, with their own message, even if Phelps and his gang of thugs weren't there?

No, they would not. They are there only because the Phelps morans are there. They are there only to silence Phelps, by whatever means necessary. The bikers have no message of their own.

That's not competition. That's a clear attempt to prevent someone from saying their piece, no matter how disgusting, and that's a Free Speech violation. Keep in mind the Nazis in Skokie in 1978 or 1979. They were abhorrent, too, and their deliberate choice of Skokie was nothing but provocative, but I was proud that I was able to participate in securing the Nazis their right to march - it was my first task as a brand-new volunteer ACLU lawyer.

I don't know about "barring," what you mean by it, because that's not what I've been talking about. In the end, it's about a person's right to speak, and if you want to silence Phelps, who will be the one who decides to silence you? Phelps? Me? George W. Bush?

[PaganPreacher]

136. A second dose of ignorance- but I am not surprised.

They would be there, with their own message, even if Phelps and his gang of thugs weren't there? No, they would not.

Another statement from ignorance.

The Patriot Guard has attended approximately 40 funeral or memorial mission rides since December, and Phred's Phreaks have been present at about a dozen of them.

Our mission is simple- we honor the fallen heroes, and honor their families. If Phred's Pheaks are not there, it changes nothing for us.

Maybe you should check out the PGR website- when the server comes back up. For some reason}( , our traffic jumped about 3x today, and the server crashed.

You might learn a thing or two.

http://www.patriotguard.org


The Pagan Preacher
Turning sacred cows into cheeseburgers since 1963.

[OldLeftieLawyer]

150. Sorry

That's not relevant.

They have no message. Phelps is simply their venue.

I'm not impressed by biker gangs. Sorry. If these same people were forced to wear khakis and t-shirts and drive Ford Escorts, they wouldn't show up.

I'm never impressed by adults playing "dress-up".

[PaganPreacher]

135. You know not of what you speak.

They DID explain to you in law school that the First Amendment applies only to the government, right? You do know that "Congress shall make no law abridging...freedom of speech", and that the 14th Amendment expanded that to include other federal, state, and local governments. Nothing there about private citizens, is there?

Not only are the riders NOT government agents, we are not infringing on Phred's freedom of speech. The Patriot Guard, American Legion/American Legion Riders, Combat Vet Riders of America, Leathernecks M/C, Christian Cavalry, ABATE, and VFW take no action that prevents Phred from exercising his right of free speech.

We have never prevented Phred from speaking, or from showing his filthy signs or banners. We have never prevented his grandchildren from screaming obscenities at passing cars, nor prevented them from burning or stomping on American flags. We have not prevented him from being interviewed on local or national TV, nor did we prevent him from "sermonizing" at the Kansas legislature this past month.

Never, not once.

Furthermore, we have never broken the law of any state or municipality in which we gathered for a funeral or memorial mission ride.

Never, not once.

So, given that we have NOT broken the law, why do you want to arrest us?

This may surprise you, but I absolutely agree that Phred and his Phreaks must be allowed to speak freely. Our Constitution is too important to sacrifice for that asshole. Only by an open airing of the hate Phred masks in 'righteousness' can we teach our own children the awful price of intolerance.


I am The Pagan Preacher-
American Legion Rider, Patriot Guard Rider-

-and I don't turn the other cheek.

[420inTN]

141. How are they violating Phelps' rights?

Phelps and his brood are still waving their placards and shouting their slogans. They are just not doing it in the faces of the bereaving families. Phelps is still getting his say.

[Bake]

154. I don't usually disagree with you, OLL, but I do here

The Constitution nowhere guarantees that private citizens won't violate your right to free speech. Only that the State cannot do so. As I see it, the bikers are simply exercising THEIR right to free speech -- like competing in the marketplace of ideas. Theirs just may be a little bit LOUDER than Phred's.

For the record, I'm opposed to any legislation or ordinance that would limit free speech, even Phreddie's speech. But if some good ol' boys want to "educate" Phred's Phamily, far be it from me to get in their way.

Bake, Esq.

[MsMagnificent]

158. Is it not their right to their own free speech

also?

[ret5hd]

44. so you've gone from all to most...

i'll write this exchange off as an example of your hobby...not the deer hunting one either.

[saigon68]

86. Yes freedom of speech is a very bothersome concept

To a number of the posters here

[ret5hd]

88. ??? non sequiter much?

[rinsd]

94. Free speech should be countered by more speech...

You seem to have a problem with people holding up a mirror to your ugly and frankly wrong generalizations.

[saigon68]

97. Not me

[TankLV]

26. I know of bikers personally, some of the nicest grandmas and grandpas

ever.

But why use common sense when outrageous generalities for a few work so well in your bigoted prejudiced view of the world on this issue.

Sigh...

I had come to expect better of you.

Guess you are no different from other ignorant posters here.

[Celeborn Skywalker]

42. Bullshit.

Stop with the freeperesque stereotyping.

[w8liftinglady]

49. I am a biker,a nurse,a pacifist, and a liberal

I have several tattoos and ride on the back of a 1994 harley softail heritage.My boyfriend is also a democrat,and our friends are on both sides.

[PaganPreacher]

137. Hey, w8liftinglady!

See you on the road!



The Pagan Preacher
Knees to the breeze!

[OldLeftieLawyer]

51. Don't forget -

these are the assholes who supported Fuckface, the deserter, over Kerry, the war hero.

They're assholes, macho poseurs who are nothing without their little leather outfits and their machines.

Wonder how tough they'd be in khakis and sneakers, driving Dodge Neons.

[roguevalley]

54. I remember that biker endorsement. When it was made

the rank and file WERE PISSED. Again, stereotyping. Put some other word in place of biker and make stereotypical generalizations. Bad then?

[OldLeftieLawyer]

57. Stereotyping?

For people who presume to love their country so much - witness their annual pilgrimage to the Vietnam Veterans' Memorial in DC - they sure as shit don't give a damn about its leadership.

I have no idea what you mean by "stereotyping." My comments were strictly about the bikers who endorsed Fuckface.

[ismnotwasm]

63. LOL

I think you are the most consistent person on this board with a pet name for bush. "Fuckface". Cracks me up.

As for Phelps--What a puke. I can't believe how much attention he gets, but then, these last few years I've been having to believe in a whole lot of things I never thought I would.

[OldLeftieLawyer]

64. Don't you know it?

Think back ten years. Could you ever have imagined our country in this kind of ruin?

Yeah, Phelps is the great red herring for this news cycle, and it kills me when people buy into it without understanding what it's really about. Fuckface and company are betting on this, that we'll all look elsewhere while the infrastructure rots, more rich people get richer, we go deeper into debt, more poor people have less and less, and those invisible flag-draped coffins keep coming back deep in the night.

Well, he IS Fuckface. What else would I call him?

I have a feeling his own parents call him that. Don't you?

heh heh heh

[Maddy McCall]

72. Well, perhaps the lesson here is that not all Republicans are evil.

Like I said below, they possibly saved the first amendment for ALL of us.

[OldLeftieLawyer]

73. Naw, they're all evil.

Seriously, you're keeping your eye on the main issue when you focus on free speech. The Republicans would have us diverted by the peripheral issues, but we ain't buying.

Again, the most abhorrent speech (Remember David Duke? The Nazis who wanted to march in Skokie?) requires the most protection.

The First Amendment is a paradoxically fragile and powerful truth.

[Maiden England]

70. Excuse me, but I am a Patriot Guard Rider too...

Your stereotype is rude, tiny-minded, and quite frankly well out of order.

I am a Patriot Guard Rider,
I am a HOG member, which is a riding club. But I am not a motorcycle club member. The VAST Majority of bikers are not m/c members, and an even smaller percentage belong to an outlaw/1%er group.
I'll admit I do have a tattoo - but its of Tigger (from Winnie the Pooh) and its on my hip - does that make me a thug now?
Oh and I'm a 5'2" female.
Most of all I'm a biker - not an enthusiast, because I ride all the time, everywhere. Rain/wind/cold/hot, no matter. Why - get this liberal crap - to save the environment (and my wallet) - because my Harley gets almost 60mpg.

I am a member of the Democratic Underground. I'm about as liberal as you can get. My husband is also one of those 'nasty' bikers. He's not a liberal though. He's a (gasp) libertarian.

As far as being a knuckle dragger - I'm an M.D. I think I spent too many years in college to drag my knuckles. In fact, I guess I'm definately erring on the liberal elite side of it.

I'm also Jewish, and the Nazi references you should apologise for immediately.

Next time, check your facts before you run your mouth, or better still, don't waste your breath spewing crap about which you know less than nothing, unless, you want to go post at freeperville, where such spewings are I believe, quite welcome....

[Maddy McCall]

75. Notice that she won't respond to you? Why?

Because you give testimony to the fact that her prejudicial stereotypes are bullshit--you prove her wrong. And she doesn't like to be proved wrong.

[Maiden England]

81. Apparently not wanting to collect their reward

For 3rd Runner up in - Wannabee Freeper of the year.



:eyes:

[DS1]

84. No, S68 just sits there and spews out the most outrageous stuff

possible, then smiles as people actually react and call him/her on it.

I don't listen/read anymore

[rinsd]

93. Because all Hell's Angels are bikers, all bikers are Hell's Angel's

And people should always be held resposbile for bad actions people wityh a similar hobby did 40 years ago ignoring anything the people being spoke about actually did di then, now and may do in the future.

Sounds like a mentality I quite can't put my finger on.

[Maiden England]

126. Phelps drives a car; ergo all car drivers are gay bashing freepers

Would be another analogy ;)

[DainBramaged]

160. You are so completely wrong it's not worth discussing with you

It's 2006, the hard core bikers are just like the rest of us now.

http://www.rollingthunder1.com/

"When one American is not worth the effort to be found, we as Americans have lost!"

[teknomanzer]

20. I was just thinking what a circus it has become...

poor people just want to lay thier family member to rest and Ringling Bros. show up with clowns and now motorcycles. Why doesn't everyone just leave them alone in their moment of grief.

Phelps you are an asshole.

[soup]

23. you, too?

Phelps Wackos surrounded by free speech barriers surrounded by a buffer zone surrounded by police in riot gear surrounded by motorcycle trailers hitched up to big trucks surrounded by this group some revving their motorcycles surrounded by others lining the road waving flags unfurling banners and yelling "USA, USA" and the state and local police patrolling and monitoring it all...

What did I forget? Oh, yeah... the news crew hoping to catch someone doing something so they can hype their

film at 11.

[kayice]

159. Did you actually see this?

[EVDebs]

41. A quote from Don Rumsfeld

Death has a tendency to encourage a depressing view of war.

~Donald Rumsfeld

makes you wonder why the neocons were in such a rush. Vulcans schmulkans, merely assholes and chickenhawks.

[PaganPreacher]

138. The motorcycles were invited.

One major difference between the Patriot Guard Riders and the Phreaks is that we are invited by the family. No invitation, no mission ride.

We also coordinate with local law enforcement before every mission ride.

The Pagan Preacher
I don't turn the other cheek.

[wtmusic]

46. Yeah, those Bikers Against Diabetes and Bikers against Child Abuse

are assholes...can you imagine raising money for fucked up causes like that?

http://www.travelingbikers.com/charities.html

:silly:

[mediaman007]

61. So much for uniting behind Christ...

As I let my mind wander in the sermon this morning, I considered one of the hymns that suggested the World will be peaceful when it unites behind Christ. In this case, consider that both sides are "believers."

Hypocrites, that's for sure.

[Maddy McCall]

71. The bikers saved the first amendment.

Legislators who wanted to curtail ALL of our rights because of the Phelps clan are now stymied, because the problem can be resolved by a group of biker protesters who can "outnoise" the Phelps.

It's beautiful. Those bikers deserve our appreciation, not scorn.

[Stepup2]

11. Attention to the nutters

Calling attention to the nutters is okay imo, cause many folks do not know about Fred P and what his band of crazies put mourning families through.

edited for clarity

[Swamp Rat]

14. Phelps is insane and has fostered an insane family

[megatherium]

16. Phelps is a money making scam that requires notoriety,

which he obtains from ever more offensive demonstrations. When picketing gay funerals no longer made the news, he had to find other things that would get him in the news. I don't know who is giving him money though. Some think he's trying to provoke violence against his followers, so that he can win a million-dollar lawsuit (either against whoever attacked him or against local governments for failure to protect him and his first amendment rights).

Phelps speaks for no one but himself; his group is not allied with anyone else. Not even the Freepers like this guy, they hate his guts.

[roguevalley]

55. I read some place that Phelps himself is ailing, has

alzheimers or something of that nature and is seldom seen out. He has a strange history. Google him. He was a doper and dabbled in men from what I've read. Seems he's putting his evil outward.

[PaganPreacher]

140. I stood 20 feet from Phred in the Kansas Statehouse last month...

and he definitely did not look well.

I only hope that he chokes to death on his own vomit, and soon.

The next generation of Phreaks is no better. I'm not holding my breath for a grand epiphany that changes their hearts, either.

The Pagan Preacher
I don't turn the other cheek.

[proud2BlibKansan]

153. Dabbled in men?

Where did you read that? I live in Kansas, have followed Phelps for years and I have NEVER heard that. There are several different versions of a story about his son coming out to him, but I sure never heard ole Fred was gay.

[maryallen]

17. Wonder who's paying these guys?

[stepnw1f]

22. Exactly... (nt)

[Solo_in_MD]

25. No one does

Purely volunteer.

[teknomanzer]

27. They must be getting money from someplace...

These trips to agitate (I wouldn't call it protesting or demonstrating) at funerals have to cost money. Even driving - gas costs would be substantial. Rhey can't providing only their own funds for this. They couldn't possibly afford it.

[LostinVA]

28. Other posters have stated they are mainly local volunteers

Why couldn't they afford that? If people can afford a Harley, they can afford $30 in gas money to drive across the state.

[teknomanzer]

30. I was referring to the Phelps gang...

they are constantly in the news for agitating at someones funeral - so how can they afford to run around the country doing this?

As for the bikers - I am ambivalent. I can appreciate the sentiment, but everyone - starting with Phelps needs to stay the fuck away from the grieving families.

[LostinVA]

32. Two quick answers

1.) Phelps gets alot of donations from people and organizations.

2.) The bikers are there ONLY at the request of the families. Look at the link I posted above. THEY are doing nothing wrong, and are only doing it if the families ask them to.

[teknomanzer]

40. Well if the families request the bikers presence...

That is something different altogether. Ultimately, I hold Phelps in the greatest contempt. I can't wait until he dies. I will be at his funeral with a sign that reads, "God hates hypocrites!"

[LostinVA]

48. That's what the bikers' website states

[Maraya1969]

45. Oh Oh Oh Oh......if Phelps is a 301C then he must have his financial

papers available to the public. There is a site where you can check.

Then again, he may not list himself as a non-profit just so he can protect his benefactors.

[Solo_in_MD]

37. I thought you were asking about the riders...

[Maddy McCall]

76. ...

Never mind. I thought you were referring to the bikers.

[LostinVA]

29. For everyone stereotyping these bikers:

http://www.patriotguard.org/

I don't own a bike, but I work with a librarian that does. And, she considers herself a biker, not a "motorcycle enthusiast." She rides a Harley, wears Harley gear to work, she and her BF do all kind of rallies, etc. on weekends and vacations. She is a total Leftie. My uncle is a biker. He crabs all week and lives a biker life whenever he's not working. He's rough hewn, but a straight arrow, a Methodist, a vet, a Kerry voter.

Being in a motorcycle club does not equal being in Hell Angels, etc. Wearing a ponytail, having tats all over, wearing leather vests, and liking a good party also doesn't make you a "bad biker." They are some pretty criminal elements, but the majority are just regular people, no different than people who do nothing but play golf every single spare minute.

[kayice]

31. The bikers have been doing this for awhile now.

Their movement is growing and it is a sight to behold against Phelps. Phelps is a nasty beast out there protesting while this soldier's families are grieving.

Finally, the press in Kansas is getting smarter (if possible); they only show the Patriot Guard riders lining the street with their flags instead of Phelps and his nasty signs.

[leesa]

33. Well, I'm glad someone's challenging them, but these poor families!

Why can't the Phelp's nuts be charged with harassment and arrested?

[kayice]

36. Phelps and his kids are all lawyers, freedom of speech.

[Warren Stupidity]

47. Constitutional issue.

It is called Freedom of Speech. Phelps has a right to express his obnoxious opinions just like you have a right to express yours. I support both of you in your right to express opinions I find obnoxious.

[bvar22]

50. I am with you somewhat......

though I think that in this instance, Phelps may be shouting "Fire" in a crowded theater. I would be incited to violence if he showed up at the funeral of my brother.
I am definitely in the GRAY area here.

"Counter" demonstrations, no matter by whom, always give me a queasy feeling.

[Warren Stupidity]

60. 'fire in theater' analogy

does not apply to 'words that get you pissed off'. Of course if you can convince the Phelpoids to attack you, have at 'em.

[AX10]

43. Good!

These men are PATRIOTS. Phelps and Company need to be put in their place.

[sakabatou]

62. Ganbatte, Patrot Guard!

:patriot:

[dysfunctional press]

65. does anyone else think that Phelps must be very, very, gay?

and very, very closeted?

me thinks he dost protest too much...

[arwalden]

68. It's Very Easy To Imagine Phelps Cruising For Sex At Truckstop Toilets...

... he's got that creepy shadowy furtive dirty-old-man look to him. And you're right... someone who's THAT obsessed with homosexuality has DEFINITELY got something he's hinding.

[humbled_opinion]

74. What is the issue...

This Phelps guy is a whacko. What is the issue anyway cheer at the deaths of the military because what the military is spreading the homosexual agenda? I am way lost on this and if this guy is that far gone how come the authorities haven't done something about it yet?

[PaganPreacher]

145. The best (most rational) way I can explain it is:

Phred Phelps believes that America should round up all homosexuals, send them to camps, and execute them- because that is what God wants. Because we don't do that, God visits his vengeance on us one death at a time (from AIDS or IEDs), or through disasters. The Phreaks protested at the Sago miners' funerals, and at the World Trade Center after 9/11.

OK, I know that is absolutely insane, but that is really the most rational way I can describe it.

The Pagan Preacher
???WTF???

[entanglement]

77. Not exactly a fan of bikers, but as long as they don't resort to violence

and intimidation it's probably ok.

[scot]

80. "Thank God for IEDs"!?!?!

I don't care what you think of the war, that's just fucked up.

[TX-RAT]

148. We've had 2 Soldiers funerals here.

I can assure you if somebody had been walking around with a sign saying that, they would have had the shit kicked out of them.

[Spiffarino]

82. What's the penalty for throwing dog shit at the WBC nuts?

Just askin' :shrug:

[420inTN]

143. Depends upon what the local penalty is for Assault. n/t

[GinaMaria]

87. This is the hardest part about free speech

According to our laws we can come pretty darn close to harrassing private citizens. I can't imagine having either of these groups disrupting funeral services of someone I love. My experience has taught me that when people don't like what you are saying they will try to shut you up, lock you out and keep you from being heard. It happened to me by a bunch wing nuts at a parade where I protested *. I've also had to endure the idiot, religeous freak on State Street who has a microphone shouting to people that they are going to hell for smoking cigarettes. I've also been shoved into FAZs so far away from * there was no way he saw or heard protestors.

I find the whole thing confusing, frankly. Why on earth can we speak freely to any powerless joe or jane citizen to the point of disrupting their lives, but 'elected' officials are free from hearing us, seeing us?
I find it surprising that people who are 1st A. supporters see no problem with FAZs for protestors but defend the right of some nut with a microphone on State street.

Maybe I have this thing all wrong, but don't we have a 1st A. so we can speak freely to those with power, those with authority and those who govern our lives? Wasn't that the problem our founders were trying to remedy? It seems like a waste of free speech rights when we cannot express ourselves to our own government. However,private citizens seeking a medical procedure, attending a funeral,or walking down the street at lunch time seem to the be the ones who need FAZs. What's the point of free speech if all we can do is harrass each other?

Am I making a distinction where none exists? Should there be a difference in 'free speeching' a governement official who should work for you and a private citizen?

[indigo32]

103. I think this is a very good point

[Javaman]

91. I don't see any of this ending good.

As crazy as phelps is, he still has his right to freedom of speech. Like it or not.

Rather than sending out a group of self proclaimed
"Patriot Guard Riders", that in my opinion is only one step away from the minutemen nuts, how about having a bill that would ban all protests in Cemeteries?

Sorry, I know, I'm making sense. :shrug:

So as these two groups go and have their own private pissing match trying to shout each other down, it always amazes me that in our current state of affairs, that these types of tactics are the accepted norm now.

Match anger with anger. That always works. :sarcasm:

[TriMetFan]

98. The bikers have freedom of speech too.

I'm just wondering why Dyke's on bikes haven't gone and help these men and women?

[Charlie Brown]

99. I'm not sure free speech would include muzzling another group

If the bikers want to hold a counter-rally, that is definitely their right. But preventing another group from being heard? I don't know.

[Javaman]

100. Again my point is missed...

In my first paragraph I stated, why not pass a bill to ban protests in cemetaries...

then my last statement: Matching anger for anger always works... :sarcasm:

What I'm trying to say here folks, is this: There are better and more constructive ways then using this kind of reaction to deal with phelps and his like.

Having the bikers out there to shout this fool down, only creates more publicity for his protests. This solves nothing.

I never once said that the bikers shouldn't do it, I said in essence: it won't be very effective.

This is why nuts like phelps gain traction with society, right or wrong, he keeps getting himself in the news and that is what he wants.

Until we as democrats/Americans can try something, other than shouting the opposition down to combat these rightwing stooges, this stuff will continue.

I would like to think that we Democrats are much more clever than to resort to more of their type of tactics.

Apparently, it appears we are not.

[neuvocat]

102. Maybe I missed it...

but what would you suggest as an alternative? Thanks.

[Javaman]

112. sponsoring a bill that would ban protesting from cemetaries...

beyond that, I'm not that any more clever than that. :(

But we as a party, have to start thinking of other ways to compete(?) or out maneuver the opposition that are considered different.

If we continue to play by their rules, we will cease to exist and become totally marginalized.

Our Dem leaders need to stop placating to the right and stand on their own, even if it's not with the "mainstream". Basically, stir up the pot.

I know all of this is vague, but sadly, that's the best I have right now. I'm just one person trying to think differently, instead of trying to use the same old shouting matches or my deal is better than you deal so nah nah nah. That solves nothing.

We need to challenge ourselves more.

[neuvocat]

124. Well if I'm not mistaken...

if this is a veteran's cemetary then their access could be blocked or at least very limited, the same for private cemetaries. Wouldn't that work.

[TriMetFan]

105. No-one is "muzzling" Phelps and kids.

They are screaming their bull shit and holding their signs up. The bikers are just gunning their bikes and holding the best sign of all The American Flag. So the bikers are counter protesting Phelps.

[Charlie Brown]

106. If they were doing this at a gay-rights demonstration or anti-war rally

I would not like it much, and neither would most people here.

[LostinVA]

109. The FAMILIES invite them - I posted a link yesterday

If people would look at their website, they would understand what this group is doing.

[TriMetFan]

111. Yes you are right, that no-one here would like it, BUT....

That is freedom of speech. Or at least that is what America stood for 7 year ago.

[420inTN]

144. IMO, Freedom of Speech is the right to speak...

not the right to be heard or to be listened. If I write a letter to a newpaper editor or submit a manuscript to a publisher, and neither publish my work, is that censorship? No. If I am at a protest shouting, and counter-protestor is next to me, but shouting louder, is that censorship? No.

[Bake]

155. No, you're NOT making sense

The right to free speech is not ABSOLUTE. The State MAY consitutionally regulate time, place, and manner of speech (but not content), but such regulation must stand up to "strict scrutiny" and the State must have a compelling interest in such regulation.

One side of this thread is totally missing the point -- the bikers here are not "the State." ONLY THE STATE CAN VIOLATE YOUR RIGHT TO FREE SPEECH.

Ergo, you're not making sense. We do NOT need legislation or ordinance in this circumstance -- to ban ALL protests in/near cemteries is unduly broad.

Bake, Esq.

[wicket]

104. Bless 'em

:patriot:

[proud2BlibKansan]

108. Great!

I read they were doing that here in Kansas and I think it is the best idea yet for silencing Phelps.

[PaganPreacher]

139. Kansas has the largest number of PGR members in the nation.

As sad as it sounds to say this: If you come to a mission ride in the Kansas City/Topeka/Lawrence area, we would welcome your presence.

The Pagan Preacher
I don't turn the other cheek.

[TX-RAT]

151. Thank you, and the others for what you do and stand for.

[VegasWolf]

110. It would be real nice if Phelps accidently stepped out in front of a bike.

[Redstone]

113. Bikers roll to military funerals to oppose anti-gay protests

http://www.cnn.com/2006/US/02/21/funeral.motorcyclists.ap/index.html

FORT CAMPBELL, Kentucky (AP) -- Wearing vests covered in military patches, a band of motorcyclists rolls around the country from one soldier's funeral to another, cheering respectfully to overshadow jeers from church protesters.

They call themselves the Patriot Guard Riders, and they are more than 5,000 strong, forming to counter anti-gay protests held by the Rev. Fred Phelps at military funerals.

The bikers shield the families of dead soldiers from the protesters, and overshadow the jeers with patriotic chants and a sea of red, white and blue flags.

Now, I'm not one to wear my patriotism on my sleeve, but I salute these guys. Anything that shuts up that scumbucket Phelps when he's trying to ruin a funeral is a good thing. There's a special corner of Hell reserved for Phelps for making those families suffer even more.

Redstone

[Bill McBlueState]

114. good

I'm much more comfortable with this approach to Phelps than I am with laws that limit what can be said when there happens to be a funeral nearby.

[jeff30997]

115. Anti-gay protests at military funerals?

Why at military funerals in particular? I don't get it.:shrug:

[YOY]

116. Phelps loves publicity

He thinks he's getting his message out to likeminded folk. He's also looking for lawsuits from possible assaults.

Some of the more freepish idiots who object to his stupid ass protests actually call him a 'liberal'. It just goes to show how stupid this country has become and how 'liberal' has become a nasty word for the narrow-minded.

[Redstone]

117. Because he's fucking nuts, that's why you can't understand him.

He's a twisted, hate-filled, sorry excuse for a human being.

Redstone

[Webster Green]

119. There's nothing to get.......Phelps is completely insane...

Batshit loony!

[AllegroRondo]

120. Phelps is a nutcase

his POV is that the military are dying in Iraq because America is tolerant of gays.

[ClayZ]

118. Karma Control .....Pictures

Whoo Hooo!


http://community.webshots.com/album/547043178ZHzWdH/0

[madmark]

122. good for them

[politicat]

123. Wish they considered gay 18 year olds as worthy as military 18 year olds

It's perfectly fine to picket a gay kid's funeral after he's beaten to a pulp and left for dead on a fence post, but don't mess with his presumed straight counterpart who took the only job he could get.

I'm glad the club's doing this, but they're a few years too late. Phelps needed to be stopped back when he first decided that picketing a funeral was a fine thing to do.

[DavidMS]

125. There was a film about the death of Mathew Sheppard

Some counterprotesters got togeather dressed up as angles and used the wings of their costumes to shield the ceramony from Phelps the pshyco.

[benburch]

127. Motorcyclists Roll to Soldier Funerals

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20060221/ap_on_re_us/funeral_motorcyclists

Motorcyclists Roll to Soldier Funerals

By RYAN LENZ, Associated Press WriterTue Feb 21, 6:11 AM ET

Wearing vests covered in military patches, a band of motorcyclists rolls around the country from one soldier's funeral to another, cheering respectfully to overshadow jeers from church protesters.

They call themselves the Patriot Guard Riders, and they are more than 5,000 strong, forming to counter anti-gay protests held by the Rev. Fred Phelps at military funerals.

Phelps believes American deaths in Iraq are divine punishment for a country that he says harbors homosexuals. His protesters carry signs thanking God for so-called IEDs — explosives that are a major killer of soldiers in Iraq.

The bikers shield the families of dead soldiers from the protesters, and overshadow the jeers with patriotic chants and a sea of red, white and blue flags.

<SNIP>

----------

Thank you guys!!! Ride on!

[Benhurst]

128. It's sad, though, that they have to do it. NT

[bbinacan]

129. You're right but I'm

glad they are doing it. Phelps is a fucking, heartless, and maniacal nut job.

[PaganPreacher]

130. It doesn't have to be "they", it can be "you", too!

You don't have to be a veteran or a motorcycle rider to join the Patriot Guard Riders. PGR wants you, too.

PGR is non-political; we are brought together by a shared duty to honor those who gave their lives for their country, and to honor their families.

As long as each leaves his politics at the curb, George Clooney and G. Gordon Liddy are equally welcome.

Log onto http://www.patriotguard.org and learn more about us.



The Pagan Preacher
I don't turn the other cheek.

[benburch]

131. I'm there. nt

[bbinacan]

132. Well said. n/t

[Raine]

134. Phelps is going to go to hell

if there is one :grr: hatred like that is not Christian. :cry:

[imperial jedi]

146. All right !! way to go.

n/t

[Ignacio Upton]

161. God Bless the bikers

Because God hate Fred Phelps. I offer my support towards keeping those douche-bags away from funerals. :patriot: