Greek composer adds voice to anti-Semitic chorus

[Blitz]

Greek composer and cultural icon Mikis Theodorakis added his contribution to the anti-Semitic miasma rising in parts of the world by characterizing the Jews as the root of the world's evils. Theodorakis, a towering figure in Greek music best known outside his native land for scoring the music for the film Zorba the Greek, took his shot at the Jews at a press conference to launch a new book.

"We, the Greeks, did not turn aggressive like them because we have more history," Theodorakis was quoted by Y-net as saying. "Today it is possible to say that this small nation is the root of evil. It is full of self-importance and evil stubbornness."

. . .

Theodorakis, responding to recent comments by a Greek statesman that the Greeks and Jews are similar because neither have friends, said, "The fact that we are very calm and did not turn aggressive like them is because we have more history. They only have Abraham and Jacob, who were shadows, while we have Pericles. Imagine what would happen in Greece if we were as aggressive as the Jews."

The composer added that the Greeks are not characterized by the fanaticism of the Jews.

more:

http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?pagename=JPost/JPArticle/ShowFull&cid=1068525557451&p=1008596981749

http://news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story2&u=/031112/photos_en_afp/031112184351_8x4v2czp_photo0&e=1&ncid=707

This is really sad. I don't know that anti-semitism is particularly prevalent in Greece and I hope that Theodorakis is not representative of the Greek people or an emerging trend in Greece.

[Brucey]

1. We, the right-handed people with moles on our arms,

did not get all violent like those damn people with dark hair and no ear lobes! And what the hell is up with those stupid left-handers? Why don't they change? Who would want that horrid life style?

[SlavesandBulldozers]

2. they do have a very long history, those Greeks

unfortunately, they haven't revamped their sewer system since the time of Pericles, either.

[Name removed]

3. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[thebigidea]

4. lets hear it for cultural icons I've never heard of!

[wakfs]

5. Ah, capitalism

People will say ANYTHING to sell their crap, books or anything else.

[papau]

6. Greek anti-semitism tends to exist but mildly - EU call Greek's racist for

Muslim attitude (they threw the "mosque" minuret (call to prayer towers) into the sea and restored the buildings to churches - and there are few families that do not have story about the "child tax" that took the cute kid - 8 or 9 year old - from the village to be a sex toy for the ottomans - and if he survived - to put into the Janassaries - a folks that to fight the muslim battles because the turks stopped doing their own fighting in many places).

Greece is less tribal than the balkans - but that does not say much - with respect to muslims - and even with respect to villiage. The anti-Jew concept is treated as a given in conversations - but I have never seen it heated as one can see in Germany or Austria.

I think Theodorakis, who has the lack of "think before you speak" that of common to the aged, is dumping on Shoron's aggressive PA bashing, the Sharon self-importance, and the Sharon evil stubbornness of not removing the settlements, and the Sharon refusal to ease up on actions in the PA areas.

There is actually a saying in Greece that builds on the concept that the "low land Greek" (the educated Greek lawyer) is much more a threat to your well being than any Jew. Indeed Jewish aggressiveness, as opposed to Sharon aggressiveness, is not a big topic. But most Greeks will assume you, like themselves, put Jews a rung or two below a "Greek". They will not assume you hate the Turkd as much as they do.

And as with all generalities, the above ignores the large minority of the population that are totally without a problem - indeed that national T-shirt of Greece - I swear - says "no problem"!

:-)

[JVS]

8. Can we see a picture of this national T-shirt?

[papau]

9. Hell - I should sell them on Ebay - I do not believe there is a port

that does not have a few thousand for sale. Indeed the English humour mag had a Greek wearing such a T-shirt in its cartoons for a while.

In any case they are all the same - "NO PROBLEM" printed above the port or city name, with an occassional addition that reflects the specific location.

[Blitz]

11. I've seen those

They're not as laid back as the Jamaicans, though ... actually, I'm not sure that it's physically posible to be more laid back than the Jamaicans and remain conscious.

[Dhalgren]

7. As long as the Israelis identify their government with all "Jews",

then there will be misunderstandings like this. IMO, the Greek was speaking about the nation of Israel as being the "root of evil". Not the Jews as an ethnic group. But because Israel is so self - identified with the Jewish ethnic group, there is knee-jerk squeals of "anit-semitism" when none are called for. It's like saying, "the Chinese are blood-thirsty and ruthless and will stop at nothing to acheive their ends." If you are talking about the government of the nation of China, you may have a good argument for your statement, but if you are talking about ethnic chinese, then you are a racist.

[Blitz]

10. Misunderstanding, huh?

When an educated man talks about "Abraham and Jacob" he is very knowingly talking about the history of all Jews, not just the history of Israel. Of course, Theodrakis is an avowed enemy of both Israel and the Jews and has something of a history in this regard:

. . .

An almost complete convergence of views in the Greek press (extreme right, ultra-nationalistic, intellectual left and communist) concerning the Israeli-Arab conflict seemed to reach a peak in spring 2002. On 2 April the country’s two largest centrist dailies, Ta Nea and Eleftherotypia, as well as Apogevmatini, printed, without question, a fabrication supplied to the state Athens News Agency by a Palestinian organization in Greece, according to which Israelis were trafficking in the organs of dead Palestinians and performing medical experiments on Arab prisoners. On the same day, the three major dailies, Eleftherotypia, Ta Nea and To Vima, printed a front page article by Mikos Theodrakis accusing “the Jews” of “imitating Nazi barbarity” and of carrying out “a final solution against the Palestinians.” Revealing his subscription to conspiracy theories, he proclaimed: “If we leave Palestine alone at the mercy of the modern conquerors, then we are leaving the door open for the darkest forces known to mankind to pass through tomorrow.” On 14 April he suggested in Eleftherotypia that a power greater than that of the US was behind the September 11 attacks. Theodorakis led two massive pro-Palestinian concerts/rallies in Athens (10 April) and in Thessaloniki (14 April), at which the Star of David was paraded in the form of the swastika and Theodorakis referred to Sharon as “a little Hitler.”

. . .

http://www.tau.ac.il/Anti-Semitism/asw2002-3/greece.htm

If it's any comfort, he doesn't like Americans (that's AMERICANS, not just AMERICA) either:

The strong anti-U.S. sentiment was captured by the remarks of the Greek composer, Mikis Theodorakis, quoted in the same Times article, who called Americans "detestable, ruthless cowards and murderers of the people of the world. From now on, I will consider as my enemy those who interact with these barbarians for whatever reason."

http://www.ajc.org/InTheMedia/RelatedArticles.asp?did=791

[Dhalgren]

12. Well, he does carry on.

The idea of referring to Abe and Jake in the context of Modern Israel is not incongruous. The justification of the existence of modern Israel is Yaweh's covenant (involving the foreskin of the penis, I believe) with these two nomads.
As far as whether or not Mr. Theodorakis is gulible is not something I want to get into. But his description of the behavior of "Americans" in the world is not far off the mark.

[Blitz]

15. Not far off your mark, perhaps

I, for one, do not consider Americans "barbarians" or "detestable, ruthless cowards and murderers of the people of the world." Your view may differ and you are welcome to it. Only allow me to point out that if you were to replace "Americans" with virtually any other nationality or cultural group and apply the same words to them, you would be (rightly, in my opinion) condemned and likely kicked off of this progressive board. Luckily for people who agree with you, almost no slander against Americans is out of bounds, so carry on.

P.S. Your "Abe and Jake" . . . "involving the foreskin of the penis" comments are both ignorant and offensive. But you already knew that. I wonder if you could get away with disparaging another religious and ethnic group in that fashion or if only Jews are still considered fair game. No, I don't really wonder. I know the answer.

[xchrom]

27. get to know your american history

and perhaps you might not be so self assured with your out look.
we've behaved as barbarically as everyone else. we just love to claim not to.

[Blitz]

28. Don't presume

that I don't know history, American or otherwise. Making those kinds of looking-down-the-nose presumptions is simply obnoxious.

For the record, my education, both formal and informal, is quite good and I would not hesitate to put it up against yours. Nothing in my experience or education, either in the United States or elsewhere, would make me consider Americans "barbarians" or "detestable, ruthless cowards and murderers of the people of the world."

Strightforward question, xchrom:

Do you consider Americans "barbarians" or "detestable, ruthless cowards and murderers of the people of the world?" Yes or no?

[RuB]

13. That kind of logic enables terrorists.

Terrorists make no such distinction. Mere men will advocate the destruction of (all)Israel to the very last day of mere men. It is naive to think there is a grey area when it comes to (all)Israel, it is either black or white. You either support her or you don't. If you don't you enable terrorism against her. There is a grey where you can say you support the people but are against the gov't of every other nation on earth, but the same cannot be said about Israel. Name one other country where terrorists could blow up the babies of that country and the world did not condemn and justify the destruction of those terrorists? If what happens to Israeli babies happened in Russia, China, Saudi Arabia, Iran, Pakistan, America there would be hell to pay for those terrorists and those who supported those terrorists and that nation who harbored those terrorists. But when it comes to Israel it is her fault her children are blown to bits. This greek character is an idiot and I will say this about his hero's and Israel's hero's Abraham and Jacob, Abraham and Jacob still live, the greeks heros are dead and buried.

[Blitz]

16. A quote for you

. . .

If the statistics are right, the Jews constitute but one percent of the human race. It suggests a nebulous dim puff of star dust lost in the blaze of the Milky Way. Properly the Jew ought hardly to be heard of; but he is heard of, has always been heard of. He is as prominent on the planet as any other people, and his commercial importance is extravagantly out of proportion to the smallness of his bulk. His contributions to the world's list of great names in literature, science, art, music, finance, medicine, and abstruse learning are also away out of proportion to the weakness of his numbers. He has made a marvelous fight in this world, in all the ages; and has done it with his hands tied behind him. He could be vain of himself, and be excused for it. The Egyptian, the Babylonian, and the Persian rose, filled the planet with sound and splendor, then faded to dream-stuff and passed away; the Greek and the Roman followed, and made a vast noise, and they are gone; other peoples have sprung up and held their torch high for a time, but it burned out, and they sit in twilight now, or have vanished. The Jew saw them all, beat them all, and is now what he always was, exhibiting no decadence, no infirmities of age, no weakening of his parts, no slowing of his energies, no dulling of his alert and aggressive mind. All things are mortal but the Jew; all other forces pass, but he remains.

. . .

Mark Twain, "Concerning the Jews," Harpers, 1900

Read the whole (very good) article here:

http://www.boondocksnet.com/twaintexts/concerningjews.html

[RuB]

23. How beautiful, good job Mark Twain! I'm afraid with all our noise

America will go the way of the rest, AND in the end Israel still a shining light.

[Name removed]

20. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[RuB]

24. Do you think women are treated with respect in the Arab communitees!?

Girls can be murdered because the fathers say they have dishonored them!? Little girls have their private parts mutilated by men for perverted reasons!? Lets just leave it there and you tell me thats not pre historic mentality?!

[mobuto]

35. In your opinion?

How do you presume to know what the Good Composer meant to say but didn't? He said that Jews were the root of all evil. To my untrained ears, that sounds like a pretty bold and unequivical statement of a deeply held anti-Semitic prejudice. Frankly, there's little I can conceive of him saying that would be more anti-Semitic than that.

I mean, what could he say to top that? That not only are the Jews the root of all evil, but they smell bad and their sisters are ugly?

I think a much better parallel than yours would be something along the lines of, well, "black people are the root of all evil."

You can imagine Trent Lott or John Ashcroft or whomever - your choice - saying that.

Now here comes Dhalgren, and you're going to say, "well Senator Lott {or whomever} really didn't mean to say that. Only those bad bad black people who live in inner cities and kill people in gang violence are the root of all evil, and its their fault Senator Lott made the mistake because of the way they aggressively promote their 'Gangsta' culture as being synonymous with black culture."

If you and Trent Lott worked together on something like that you'd get hell from everybody.

But apparently there's something special about the Jews that makes attacks on us fair game. Because other than the target, there really is no difference between my hypothetical situation and this reality.

[Gimel]

36. The GOI was not mentioned by Theodorakis

Who do you think he was talking about here, the GOI?

"They only have Abraham and Jacob, who were shadows, while we have Pericles. Imagine what would happen in Greece if we were as aggressive as the Jews."

He is obviously alluding to the Jewish nation and the Jewish people. There is a danger in laughing at statements like this. We all laugh at jokes about blonds, but are they ever really persecuted?

[ScotTissue]

14. What a boob.

Somebody slap him.

[David__77]

17. I don't like the Jerusalem Post...

that's what I have to say on this. Also, people should be careful talking about Abraham in general. It does seem anti-Semetic.

[Blitz]

18. What does the J-Post have to do with this?

This isn't an editorial. It's a news piece. Do you have any reason to believe that the speaker's words were misrepresented in any way?

You want an alternative source? Fine:

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/afp/20031112/en_afp/greece_jews_music_031112184351

http://www.news.scotsman.com/latest.cfm?id=2169561

http://au.news.yahoo.com/031112/19/mhtw.html

[chiburb]

21. From one of your links:

"Government spokesman Christos Protopapas sought Wednesday to distance the government from his comments, which despite the number of journalists present were only repeated in one small right-wing daily."

Would this possibly be a conspiracy by rightists to discredit a lifelong leftist and hurt his autobiography's sales?

Nah, couldn't be...

[Blitz]

25. "Would this possibly be a conspiracy. . .

...by rightists to discredit a lifelong leftist"

I take it that, in reading the link that you referred to, you missed this part:

Film footage showed neither minister reacted when Theodorakis said Greeks and Jews "are two peoples without kin, but they had fanaticism and self-knowledge and managed to prevail."

In light of the fact that Theodorakis has not disavowed his statement and in light of the fact that he has, as is noted above, made equally vicious and hateful statements in the past and in light of the fact that it was on film (putting a whole different spin on the fact that the Greek press generally failed to report his hateful, anti-semitic remarks), I would say that the possibility of a right-wing smear is slightly less than the possibility of "progressives" acting as apologists for yet another Jew-hater.

But then, we all know that that never happens.

[Name removed]

29. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Blitz]

30. That's right

I believe that a disturbingly large segment of the community that likes to label itself as progressive has chosen to act as apologists for various Jew-haters and other bigots, from Theodorakis to Buchanan to Baraka to Billy Mckinney to Arafat to Paulin to Farrakhan to Mahathir to Dave Brown (cartoonist for The Independent (UK)) to Professor Wilkie to Dick Locher (cartoonist for the Chicago Sun Times) to Tam Dalyell to Mona Baker to Daniel Bernard to James Moran to ... well, you get the idea. Any one of these execrable individuals and many other anti-semites would be more than welcome to speak at any ANSWER rally and would be heartily applauded by those in attendance. Moreover, each of them would (and, in fact, has) be enthusiastically defended and supported at DU.

The hard left has joined with the hard right in their mutual hatred of Jews and their heartfelt defense of those among them who are most outspoken in their hateful bigotry. Not a personal attack at all. A sad observation of the general state of affairs.

[Isere]

34. A sad observaton

and one I share with you.

[rini]

38. nah, he's doing a great job all by his lonesome

BTW, I grew up in a mixed Jewish-Greek neighborhood (well, mixed for the south) we were in and out of each others homes and the only prejudice I saw was general, anyone not Greek was suspect. Nice people, great cooks. The grandmas kept insisting I must be Greek, just didn't know it.

[chiburb]

19. Ah yes, the Jerusalem Post...

We may as well quote the Washington Times or UPI...
The JP is owned by Hollinger/Conrad Black and has on its board none other than Richard Perle! (Hollinger also owns the Chicago Sun-Times)

As for Theodorakis, his music was banned in Greece for years when the fascist junta ran the country. He also did the music for the film "Z", and has been associated with leftist/anti-fascist causes for years. If the quotes are accurate, my GUESS is that he was refering to Sharon's treatment of Palestinians... not Jews in general. My GUESS is that he would view them (PA's) as underdogs.

I'm not saying he's right or wrong, just consider him in total and the source of the quotes.

[Scott Lee]

26. Especially since Abraham is the common ancestor

of Judaism, Christianity and Islam.

[CWebster]

22. Actually, I met Palestinians in Athens.

Greece has taken in Palestinian "terrorists" deported by Israel. The Greeks are not particularly fond of Americans because of US support of the military dictatorship - the "Generals" who ruled Greece with an iron fist. Another country on a long list of US efforts to thwart democracy.

[merry_jane]

31. probably

just a crazy old man who's still thinking the propaganda from the last world war.

[IndianaGreen]

32. Gee, you think that maybe Israel's ongoing occupation of Palestine

maybe, just maybe, be what is feeding this rise in anti-Semitism? Mikis Theodorakis is an anti-Fascist that opposed the Greek military junta which banned his music. Why would a progressive as Theodorakis turn to ugly anti-Semitism? What drove him into that? Could it be that Israel is her own worse enemy?

I don't know the answer, I am merely posing the question.

[WeirdSceneGoldmine]

33. I don't know either

I'm starting to see a rise of more and more public opinion against Israel for their crackdown against the martyrs fighting for Palestine. How many more suicide bombers do you think it will take to push Israel over the edge with crackdowns and cause the rest of the world to finally side with Palestine in their efforts to win back the land they lost?

[aneerkoinos]

37. From Kathimerini

Theodorakis replies:

http://www.ekathimerini.com/4dcgi/_w_articles_politics_10044719_13/11/2003_36239


"My opinion of the Israeli people, as on all things, has always been known and I am frankly at a loss as to why such a great commotion was made this time, as if it was heard for the first time. Maybe some people judged this to be the right time to launch an attack on me.

I was always on the side of the weak, of those struggling for the Justice of People. And among them were the Israeli People. I sang their suffering as well as I could. I was always in favor of the peaceful coexistence of peoples. And I showed this in practice, when, among other things, I undertook a mediatory role between Alon and Arafat in the incidents of 1972."

(more)


Also:
http://www.ekathimerini.com/4dcgi/_w_articles_politics_100026_13/11/2003_36253

http://www.ekathimerini.com/4dcgi/_w_articles_politics_206_13/11/2003_36240

Theodorakis is old, very Greek and a bit goofy (he was also MP for Nea Dimokratia for a while), but I can see nothing anti-semitic in his comments.

Western civilization is often described as Greco-Judean civilization, and for a patriotic Greek like Theodorakis it is only natural to compare the "founding fathers" of the parallel cultures, and try to the make the other guy look smaller.

[Blitz]

39. "I can see nothing anti-semitic in his comments."

I think that this is a great pity.

As I have already observed, these days progressives will twist themselves into great knots and willfully blind themselves if it will help them excuse or avoid recognozing even the most blatant and clear-cut anti-semitism. Allow me to try to help you see:

Suppose, hypothetically that, oh, Kenny Rogers decided to talk about Arabs (not that he would say the following, mind you; I am convinced that Rogers doesn't have a bigoted bone in his body; just using a well known man of approximately the same age as Theodorakis as an example). Suppose that Rogers said the following:

"The difference between Arabs and Westerners is that we don't have their fanaticism. They have have no history. After all, all they have are is Mohammed, who is but a shadow while we have Jefferson and Franklin and Newton and Brahms and Shakespeare. Moreover, Mecca and Medina are the root of all evil. The Arab nations are filled with evil stuborness and self-importance. Just Imagine what would happen if the West was as aggressive as the Arabs!"

Now, I expect you'll tell me that if Rogers or anyone else said this you'd say that you see nothing bigoted in the comments and that "it is only natural to compare the "founding fathers" of the parallel cultures, and try to the make the other guy look smaller."

Or does your analysis get applied somewhat selectively, depending on who the subject of the attack is?

[Media_Lies_Daily]

40. Personally, I think you're looking to pick a fight with anyone that ...

...disagrees with your point of view.

The problem as I see it is that the Israelis have become increasingly more brutal in the way they deal with the Palestinians. How could any people, as blameless as you claim the Israelis to be, indiscriminately shoot/bomb men, women, and children and then bulldoze their homes? Israelis claim to be defending their nation, families, and homes, but whose homes are getting demolished?

What I'm seeing with my own eyes has nothing to do with being anti-Semitic...it has everything to do with my personal belief that you treat every human being with respect and dignity. That's just not happening in that part of the world.

And if the Israeli policies were correct in all ways, how is it possible that some Israelis have been willing to risk long prison sentences for refusing to kill Palestinians?

And before you use a tactic I've seen used before on DU, I don't like what the suicide-bombers are doing either. I hate what that kind of death and maiming does to the victims and to the families of the victims.

Israel and her neighbors have got to figure out a way to get along with each other. Killing each other indiscriminately is not going to work. Somebody over there is going to have to step up to the diplomatic plate and get this resolved.

Now, having said all of that, I am personally sick to death of your constant berating of anyone that doesn't share your exact view of the universe. The more you lash out at your fellow DU posters, the less likely they are going to pay any attention to your arguments.

[Blitz]

42. I am looking to engage in discussion and debate

with those that disagree with me. That is what we do here. That is what adults do. "Picking a fight" is what happens when one makes an attack on an individual, rather than on his arguments or viewpoints. That is what you did in the above post. Moreover, if you are going to accuse someone of "constant berating," the least you can do is to provide a link supporting your accusation. Perhaps if I saw some examples where I "lash out at (my) fellow) DUers" I could modify my tone. However, since I don't believe that I make personal or ad hominem attacks, I think that you are confusing "lashing out" with spirited and legitimate disagreement on issues and debate tactics. If tat is the case, perhaps you could see your way to an apology.

As to your non-personal points, I think that your characterization and perception of what is happening in Israel is completely wrong. However, it is not necessary to go into that here since Theodorakis was not only speaking of Israel. He was speaking of Jews. Of course he is now trying to hide behind the "anti-Israel" ao "anti-Zionist" facade and his defenders are trying to throw it up before him but his words, in this instance as in the past, are there for the world to see. He talked about Jews being fanatics, not Israel. He talked of Jews being aggressive, not Israel. And how did he explain it? By discussing Abraham and Jacob, who are part of the history of all Jews, not just Israelis (in fact, not even all Israelis; non-Jewish Israelis could justifiably feel that Theodorakis wasn't talking about them at all). One gets the impression that Theodorakis discussed Israel as the epicenter of the world's evil not because it is Israel but because it is the epicenter of those stubborn, aggressive, fanatical, historically barren Jews.

And if that is not anti-semitism, perhaps the term has lost all meaning.

[TahitiNut]

41. Locking

According to Rules for Posting in the Latest Breaking News Forum, discussion of Israeli/Palestinian issues is not permitted in the Latest Breaking News forum, and instead must be posted in the Israeli/Palestinian Affairs forum. If, however, the news item is primarily about U.S. policy in Israeli/Palestinian affairs, you may post it in the Latest Breaking News forum. This news item, however, is not primarily about U.S. policy. Nor has the discussion kept focused on the limits of the article. DUers interested in discussing Israeli/Palestinian affairs are, as always, welcomt to do so in that forum. Therefore, I'm locking this thread.

Thank you for your understanding and cooperation,
TahitiNut - DU moderator