"Old Europe" feels vindicated on Iraq

[NNN0LHI]

http://www.alertnet.org/thenews/newsdesk/L13648672.htm

PARIS, Nov 13 (Reuters) - Was France right about Iraq all along?

U.S. President George W. Bush's new rush to hand power back to the Iraqis was seen in Paris and other "old Europe" capitals on Thursday as proof Washington cannot cope with the aftermath of a war they advised it not to wage.

But while Bush's call for a faster handover of sovereignty goes some way to meeting European demands, he should not expect them to jump in with offers of troops or cash to help the United States out of a mess they contend is of its own making.

"France has been right for months," said Paris-based analyst Francois Heisbourg of its staunch opposition to the U.S.-led war and subsequent demands that Iraqis be put back in charge of their own affairs as soon as possible.

"But to think that 'old Europe' is going to jump into the same hole that the Americans are trying to get out of -- that's fantasy land," said Heisbourg, who heads the French Foundation for Strategic Research policy institute.

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[Noordam]

1. but but but but Whistle-ass lives in

Rove created "fantasy land"

[mobuto]

2. Old Europe should not feel vindicated

Even though they were right. Because Iraq has been an unqualified disaster for absolutely everybody, with only a few small exceptions (Halliburton, Bechtel). Old Europe is weaker because of Iraq, America is weaker because of Iraq, everybody suffers.

[el_gato]

6. maybe you should of thought of that before

too bad you were to busy playing cheerleader

[Paschall]

7. How is "Old Europe" weaker because of Iraq?

We're not pouring $100 billion into the quagmire. (Though the drain on the US economy affects the world.)

Oh, by the way, I've not seen it in the US press, but posted it here in several comments: The terror alert level in France was lowered weeks ago to pre-9/11 levels. This, of course, is a terror alert system we've been living under since 1995, before "everything changed"... when that Air France jet was hijacked and almost used as a missile against the Eiffel Tower, and a series of Islamist terrorist bombings in Paris killed dozens and injured at least 200.

If a reduced risk of terror is "suffering," I'll have a double helping please!

[mobuto]

11. How has Old Europe been weakened?

Well, you mentioned the economy - Iraq is depressing the world's economy.

But also, the war has torn Europe asunder. Whereas it once was relatively unified politically, you now have bitter resentments between EU member states. Even though Iraq should have no effect on Euro-zone enlargement or the EU Constitution, it does. For mistrust has been built and a power vacuum has been the result.

[Media_Lies_Daily]

16. The "resentments" are being pointed toward the UK and Blair's...

...eagerness to play lapdog to the U.S.

Other than that, the other old line EU nations have been forced to work together even more closely to deal with the poor U.S. policies. In addition, Germany, France, and Russia have held high-level talks that may lead to an economic and military alliance designed to off-set the rogue mentality of the current U.S. leadership.

[Terran]

23. Europe isn't torn asunder

Its population is largely in agreement about Bush and his war. Only a few governments decided to kowtow to Bush, and they are replaceable (and probably will be). I'm betting Berlusconi will be gone in a year.

And it's not Iraq depressing the world's economy, it's the US. Iraq is only a part of the US economic picture.

[Voltaire99]

25. Yes, but "Iraq" has not done this

Let's put the blame where it lies: the ills you describe are the result of the coarse US insistence on invasion.

Washington was warned. It heeded no warnings. Washington sought division in Europe, both for short and long term gain. It achieved division.

The long-term loser, however, is the US, whose 20th century strategic framework is now in grave doubt and whose economy faces both internal shocks and, externally, rising challenges. It is not enviable to face higher liabilities and greater dangers with fewer friends.

[Eloriel]

8. Sounds to me like the very definition of vindicated:

They were right, just as the anit-war folks here in the U.S. were.

How, exactly, do you think France should have handled things so as to prevent Iraq from becoming an unqualified disaster?

Eloriel

[mobuto]

13. I don't want to get into that

But lets say they were right. How is France better off today than it was a year ago?

[Media_Lies_Daily]

22. How is France NOT better off? Explain.

[kclown]

27. Some young men are alive

who might otherwise be dead.

[Beetwasher]

9. Rethinking YOUR pre-war position?

So you admit "Old Euroupe" and many on DU were right in their assessment and you were wrong in yours?

Still think it was worth it?

[mobuto]

28. No

So you admit "Old Euroupe" and many on DU were right in their assessment and you were wrong in yours?



I admit that I was wrong in my pre-war position, along with Old Europe and most - though I'm not going to say all - posters on DU. The French never questioned Bush's one-time casus belli - the spurious assertion that Saddam had WMD. Neither did the Germans, and certainly not Hans Blix. I'm just a humble schmuck. Who am I to question every single international "expert" both in government and out? In retrospect, I should have. But before the war, the verdict was unanimous.

So yeah, I was misled. And I'm pissed.

[Beetwasher]

29. Fair Enough

I'm sure it probably doesn't mean much, but I have a newfound respect for you Mobuto. There are many people who would not admit as much. Thank you for your honesty. We're all pissed! ;-)

[BlackFrancis]

10. maybe you have some alternative definition of "vindicated"?

To justify or prove the worth of, especially in light of later developments

If that's the one they are working with I can't imagine how they couldn't feel that way.

[Media_Lies_Daily]

12. "Old Europe is weaker"???? You're kidding, right? Where did...

...you get that idea from?

[mobuto]

14. Well

Britain, Italy, Denmark, Spain, etc. have started squabbling with Germany-France-Benelux on just about everything. I'd say that qualifies as a problem.

[Media_Lies_Daily]

19. Documentation? Links? Or have you started relying...

...on astrological readings?

So, who's really squabbling in Europe?

As far as Britain, Italy, and Spain are concerned, their current leadership has come under quite a bit of domestic criticism for supporting the U.S. on Iraq. Spain's leader will not run for reelection, Italy's leader has been the ubject of recent demonstations, and Blair is coming under increasing pressure for his tendency to be a lapdog to the Chimp-in-Charge. So, it sounds to me like the thinking of the people of those three countries are much more in alignment with the policies of France, Germany, etc., than they are with their own leadership.

Try again.

[mobuto]

15. Well

Britain, Italy, Denmark, Spain, etc. have started squabbling with Germany-France-Benelux on just about everything. I'd say that qualifies as a problem.

On Edit: Apologies for taking up anyone's valuable bandwidth with the double post.

[Maple]

17. 50 years ago

they were in a war...today they have the EU.

Hardly a problem...a major step forward in fact.

Minor internal squabbles are no big deal. The US has them all the time. Does that mean the US is splitting up?

[mobuto]

18. I'm not sure I understand.

I'm as big a champion of the EU as anybody.

I'm not talking about fifty-year changes, I'm talking about a loss of cohesion just since the invasion of Iraq. I hope the internal squables are just minor, just as I hope our squables with EU member states are just ephemeral, but I fear they may not be.

Time will tell.

[Media_Lies_Daily]

21. "Loss of cohesion"?? Explain.

[Kellanved]

20. time will tell

The "New European" nations, with the exception of the UK, tend to get money from the EU, while the "Old European" Nations tend to pay for the EU. Especially Spain and the joining nations have to consider this.
The rift made the need for an unified foreign policy and an elected leader apparent - if the reforms are done right some good might come from this.

[jbfam4]

3. France was right

Why isn't Bush asking these questions?

We want to do it in response to an Iraqi government," Villepin told French Europe 1 radio, insisting that a properly representative provisional government should be in place by the end of the year. He did not elaborate on the point.

"I hear people talk about (a government) by summer 2004 -- that is much too late," he added.

"How many deaths must we count before we realise we must change approach?" he asked, affirming France's view that a handover of sovereignty to the Iraqis would help ease the tensions in the country.

http://www.alertnet.org/thenews/newsdesk/L13530781.htm

[glarius]

4. "Young Canada" feels vindicated too.....

This is what puzzles me about the situation as it stands right now...Even Democrats are saying Bush should ask "nicely" and get America's former allies to help with troops, money etc....Do they not realize these countries (including mine)were against this war from the get go and do not intend to send their young people to replace the young Americans as sitting duck targets!....Sadly, your young people are being sacrificed, and I don't know what the answer is!

[pink_poodle]

5. ditto from me too!! -nm

:

[cliss]

24. I would say that you're both

right. Who can deny that the French were right, as was the rest of Europe (excluding Blair but including most of the people in the UK, who are about to get "rewarded" for their dear friendship with Ole Bush). They were right. They could see a little farther down the road than Bush. They should feel good about that.

On the other hand, what choice did they have? They could a) go along with the plan and now be a part of the mess, or b) fight it because they knew it was wrong.

In the cosmic sense, they lost. Just like we here in the US lost. Many thousands have been killed, and this number could reach catastrophic levels before it finally comes to an end. We're a global community. One country's disastrous decisions (especially the leader's decisions) will have an impact on the others.

[Jacobin]

26. Have you seen Rumfilled's reaction???

My god, I believe he's going to blow his brains out!!