Report: Synagogue Blast in Istanbul Kills 11

[bluestateguy]

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,103157,00.html

ISTANBUL, Turkey — Explosions ripped through the narrow streets near Istanbul's (search) largest synagogue on Saturday, killing 11 people, Turkish television reported.


The blasts went off near the Neve Shalom (search) synagogue, the city's largest. Private NTV television said the explosions were triggered by a natural gas leak, while another station said police were investigating the possibility that it was an attack.

cut

[La_Serpiente]

1. Geezus

where going to have a world war in the region soon.

I think this attack is both anti-Israel and anti-semitism.

[dutchdemocrat]

4. anti-Semitism?

More like anti-Zionism if anything. Turkey is currently a secular country and Jews have played a role in its society for hundreds of years. They are more worried about the Kurds and the PKK than the Israel-Palestine paradigm.

You are entitled to your opinion, but Arabs are Semites too. Turks are not of course.

I just hate to see the word beaten to death, like calling the Iraqis battling back, 'terrorists'. They aren't as far as I am concerned, it's their country and it is being occupied for reasons that have nothing to do with 'democracy'.

The 'terrorist' and 'anti-Semites' are words that are being bantered around and misused by so many people their meaning has become diluted, like the 'boy who cried wolf', no one really listens. They just identify 'terrorist' with the horrors on 9-11 and 'anti-Semite with the horrors of the Holocaust.

[Blitz]

10. You're right

The term "anti-semitism" IS being misused more and more of late. Do me a favor, if you would:

Define "anti-semitism." And please, feel free to cite sources.

[Blitz]

11. One more thing

Since you brought it up, please define "zionism" and then, if you would be so kind, define "anti-zionism."

I just want to make sure that we're all on the same page with our terminology.

[rini]

21. Excuse me?

To attack, a synaguage has NOTHING, zero, zilch, nada to do with Zionism, it has everything to do with terrorism/anti-semitism, As for Iraq, please get back on subject, Iraq is not the point of the article.

1. terrorist: civilian or paramilitary force used to attack civilian non-combatants in order to make a political statement.

2. anti-Jewish: a religious prejudice that vanishes upon converstion

3. anti-semitism: the hatred of a person who is or has any % of Jewish ancestry. Religion is immaterial.

4. zionism: the belief that Jews have a right to a nation/state in their ancesteral homeland.

[Cassandra]

25. Collective blame is OK with you?

It's interesting how some of the same people who decry any suggestion of collective guilt for other atrocities (re: moderate Muslims, Europeans, non-Islamist Arabs) are so ready to find excuses when Jews are targeted. We hear it every time here; that anger over Israel somehow justifies attacks against Jews around the world.
"I just hate to see the word beaten to death"
I hate to see Jews beaten to death.

"The 'terrorist' and 'anti-Semites' are words that are being bantered around and misused by so many people their meaning has become diluted, like the 'boy who cried wolf', no one really listens."
The word, anti-Semite, is certainly being bantered about and misused by you. Nice of you to liken it to a fairy tale of a child who's lying to get attention. The Holocaust was not a unique event in Jewish history; it was simply the ultimate expression of hatred of Jews. It didn't start with Jews being shoveled into ovens; it was part of a long history of expulsions and pogroms. The early warning signs for Jews are the cartoons that depict Jews as less than human, the news reports and stories circulated among ordinary people that Jews are the Other and somehow have brought their fate on themselves and that Jews really secretly control everything (and I've seen all of those on this board). It would be nice to have some simple human respect from some of the people on this board: that when Jews here say something smacks of anti-Semitism that we might actually be believed, rather than having our fears dismissed. Instead of saying that "no one really listens", why don't you try listening and asking us why we might feel the way we do.

[Lurking Dem]

55. Cassandra.....

Very well said.

I still haven't gotten used to armed police guarding my Temple during services. It makes me want to cry.

[Cassandra]

61. Thanks

I was feeling inspired. O8)

[bobthedrummer]

54. Killing jews was their aim, and attacking a house of worship

during Sabbath regardless of where it came from will only make things much worse in the ME.

[Jack Rabbit]

74. Yes, anti-Semitism

While it may be a misnomer, the term anti-Semitism is understood to mean a hatred, fear and loathing of Jews. The term was coined by a German agitator named Wilhelm Marr in the late nineteenth century to mean that; morevoer, Herr Marr was promoting anti-Jewish sentiments.

The target was a large synagogue. That is a religious institution, not a political one. The attack was against Jews, not Israel or Zionism.

It is possible, and even likely, that the terrorists in this case care little for the differnce between Judaism, modern Zionism and the policies of the present Israeli government. Speaking as one who has serious problems with the policies of General Sharon (anyone wishing to discuss my views on this may go to the I/P forum), it is wrongheaded and monstrous to hold Jews in general responsible for Sharon's excesses. However, that is the message I get from this act.

In the end, this act took the lives of dozens of day-to-day people in Istanbul and won't save the life of one innocent victim of any conflict elsewhere.

[Muddleoftheroad]

78. You are kidding me

Now it's not even anti-Semitism to target Jews for extermination?

I've heard it all.

[MinnFats]

2. BBC radio says reports of a dozen dead coming from the scene..

...
still unclear whether gas explosion or an attack.

[VolcanoJen]

3. Oh, no.

:-(

This isn't an area we were watching to closely, is it? Turkey? Decided against sending troops? Off the radar??

What horrific news. Too bad CNN is talking about whether some blonde will testify in the Laci Peterson trial.

[0007]

49. CNN only does what the White House orders!

[Judi Lynn]

5. Here's an AP report

Simultaneous Explosions Hit Near Two Synagogues in Istanbul; 11 People Reported Killed
The Associated Press
Published: Nov 15, 2003




ISTANBUL, Turkey (AP) - Simultaneous explosions ripped through downtown Istanbul near two synagogues on Saturday, killing 11 people, Turkish television reported.

One explosion went off near the Neve Shalom synagogue, the city's largest. The other severely damaged the Beth Israel Synagogue in the affluent district of Sisli, three miles away, reports said.

Television footage showed medical teams carrying away several people, some with charred faces. Firefighters reported 11 dead and several more injured, private CNN-Turk television reported.

Private NTV television said one of the explosions was triggered by a natural gas leak, but CNN-Turk television said police were investigating whether the explosions were deliberate attacks. (snip/...)

http://ap.tbo.com/ap/breaking/MGALPPTE1ND.html

[NickB79]

8. Simultaneous explosions point to bombings

It'd be amazing if both of these were accidents yet simultaneous.

[ThorsteinVeblen]

6. 3 things

1.) "Fox News"
2.) "Near" the synangogue
3.) Possible "Natural Gas" leak

No one overreact please.

[Darranar]

34. Will you believe it if Al Jazeera reports it?

http://english.aljazeera.net/NR/exeres/DF7F882D-F4AF-4BDE-9C11-8909AA5F0601.htm

[flama]

82. Thank you for the link!

Gawd, I've got too many windows open!

Read one, close it down. Read another, close it down. Keep DU open, though, in case the world comes to an end and I don't notice.

[Judi Lynn]

7. CNN story says one of the blasts is not considered deliberate

Report: Blast kills 11 in Istanbul
Saturday, November 15, 2003 Posted: 0850 GMT ( 4:50 PM HKT)



Police have declined to comment on what caused the blasts.


(CNN) -- At least 11 people were killed in an explosion near a synagogue in Istanbul, Turkey, a firefighter told CNN Turk.

The explosion happened saturday morning about a meter from the Neve Shalom synagogue in the Kuledibi district, sources told CNN Turk. Police were investigating the possibility that it was an attack but have not confirmed the cause of the blast.

Video of the scene showed several injured people being loaded into ambulances. Debris covered nearby cars and at least one body could be seen lying in the street. (snip)

(snip) Turkish television network NTV reported a second blast near another synagogue, but it appeared to be caused by natural gas. "One explanation is it was simply an accident," said journalist Andrew Finkel. (snip/...)

http://edition.cnn.com/2003/WORLD/meast/11/15/turkey.explosion/

[bluestateguy]

9. Uh huh

and the four little black girls were killed at the Sixteenth Street Baptist Church in Birmingham, Alabama in 1963 was because of a "boiler explosion".

:eyes:

[Muddleoftheroad]

79. Well said!

nt

[arcos]

12. at least 23 dead! (MSNBC)

http://www.msnbc.com/news/993947.asp

[IndianaGreen]

13. Two car bombs in two separate synagogues.

CNN and MSNBC TV are showing reruns. COMCAST does not carry CNN International, but it did break for about 10 minutes to show some video of the people at the hospital.

No one has claimed responsibility. CNN International was speculating about Al-Qaeda.

[IndianaGreen]

14. Islamist Group Says Behind Two Istanbul Blasts-TV (Reuters)

Islamist Group Says Behind Two Istanbul Blasts-TV
Sat November 15, 2003 04:54 AM ET

ISTANBUL (Reuters) - A radical Turkish Islamist group known as IBDA/C claimed responsibility for two blasts in central Istanbul on Saturday morning in which at least 23 people were killed, Turkish television reported.

NTV said the group, which is believed to have been involved in previous bomb attacks, had called Turkey's semi-official Anatolia news agency to claim responsibility. The Israeli Foreign Ministry said the blasts hit two synagogues.

REUTERS

[hel]

15. 24 confirmed dead, more than 100 injured

An Turkish Islamist terrorist organization acknowledged it was them, and the attacks will continue.

It's confirmed as a terrorist attack. 2 car bombs and possibly suicide attackers with machine guns.

Turkish police said they believe that some kind of Al-Queda link is possible.

This is terrible.

[IndianaGreen]

16. Sky News ** Graphic Fotos **

Around 100 people wounded


An injured man receives help

Sky News article:

http://www.sky.com/skynews/article/0,,30000-1111415,00.html

[rini]

22. Radical Islam

is a growing menace to both Islamic countries and non-Islamic countries. I pray the horror of people being murdered at prayer (Saturday is the Jewish Shabat) will cause moderate Muslems join hand with western countries tostop these murderers in their tracks!

[ikojo]

75. Radical Christianity is a growing menace as

well. Unfortunately the US government is in the hands of Radical Christians. It does not negate the danger of radical Islam but I see these bombings as a reaction to Bush policies that the Islamists perceive as being done on Israel's behalf.

Remember more people have died in the name of Jesus than have died at the hands of Muslims. Crusades. Inquisition. Pogroms. Holocaust.
Fine examples of Christian love.

I say get rid of Bush and get a real uniter in the white house and terrorism worldwide will decrease.

[Muddleoftheroad]

80. This was NOT radical Christians

So no point in hiding that fact with your comment.

[PsychoDad]

17. Last report was 2 synagoges.

23 killed, 80 wounded.

Doesn't sound like a gas leak.
This is a horrible, inexcusable crime.. I wonder who gets the blame or claims resposibility?

on edit: Just saw I.G.'s post with the name of the group that claimed responsibility.

[hel]

18. It looks like Al-Queda

Turkish police dismissed IBDA-C's claim of responsibility, saying this was more than they can handle. It was a throughly organized attack, TNT bombs in moving trucks exploding at the same time in front of two synagogues. The style and organization points to Al-Queda, they say.

[hang a left]

19. Ah yeah.........rrrrrrrrrrrrright!

[Don Claybrook]

27. Does al Qaeda even exist?

Of course it "sounds" like al Qaeda. That's because anytime any non-US-sponsored violence happens anywhere in the world, the Bush Administration attributes it to al Qaeda. The intended result is that we're all supposed to be awed and frightened by this giant, global, shadowy organization--a global menace that can only be countered by spending trillions of dollars on defense and re-electing George W. Bush. I think these people have elevated al Qaeda to a position it has never held, far beyond its actual scope.

Note: this was tangental. Someone did something awful in Istanbul. I just don't happen to believe it was al Qaeda.

[hel]

36. Alright

Attributing everything to Al Qaeda is something the US Administration loves to do, and it's quite natural to have doubts about it, but this time Turkish authorities said that they believe this could be them. And even if it's not linked to Al Qaeda, it is fundamentalist Islamist terrorists who claimed responsibility.

Fundamentalist Islamist terror existed before 9/11. One group, called IBDA-C, is/was one of the most active ones in Turkey. They did this kind of things many times in the past. They themselves claim that they are linked to Al Qaeda.

Not everything in the world is because of or linked to Bush and US. Turkey has been and still is a target for Islamists, because it is a secular state and has good relationships with Israel.

And this is a tragedy, believe me. I've seen the site with my own eyes today. One of my friends got injured while trying to get out of the synagogue. I don't care whatever Bush or his administration says or thinks about this. Islamist terror is not only his enemy. And your enemy's enemy is not always a friend.

[hang a left]

53. Certainly the whole world knows that simultaneous bombings

are the hallmarks of Al Queda. Would it not be easy to mimic? There is just too much going on in the region. I for one, am very suspicious. First a week or 10 days ago we had reports of combat aircraft moving over Scotland. Then last night we have Centcom sending hundreds of officers back to Qatar. Then this morning we have attacks on Synagogues in Turkey. Now Israel is weighing in. Is this it? Is this the beginning of something more horrific than we have ever seen?


Al Jazeera article already linked:

''The security department in Istanbul has told me it doesn't believe the IBDA is responsible for the bombings. It is pointing the finger of blame at al-Qaida. The simultaneous bombings of targets is a classic al-Qaida tactic.''

snip>

[hel]

56. Turkish officials

say that they do not believe that none of Turkish terrorist groups has the sophistication to commit organized simultaneous bombings.

It might not be Al-Qaeda; no one knows that for sure; but it also could be. The name is not important here. Terror in the name of Islam did exist in the past -there has been a bombing in 1986 at the same place in Istanbul-, and is still alive.

[hang a left]

58. All the more reason to target the Synagogues.

Someone either wants you to believe it is Al Queda, or it is Al Queda. It is either one or the other. Me, I don foil for every occasion.

[MikeGalos]

59. Realistically, does it matter?

I mean, let's get real here. What we're debating is which group of radical, violent, right-wing, Islamist fundamentalists tried to murder a bunch of Jews praying at their synagogues rather than caring about it being yet another violent attack against innocent people by radical, violent, right-wing, religious fundamentalists.

Seriously folks, this is violence by rightist fundies and instead of noting how yet again the right-wing religious crazies cause trouble for innocent people we get distracted by which group and red car vs truck.

Right-wing, religious fundamentalist violence is the problem and that's a group that backs the RNC. Focus.

[Blitz]

62. You've got it wrong, Mike

"What we're debating is which group of radical, violent, right-wing, Islamist fundamentalists tried to murder a bunch of Jews praying at their synagogues . . ."

That is what some people are debating. Others are suggesting that it wasn't Islamists at all. Rather, within minutes of this atrocity the possibility was raised on this thread that the United States or perhaps Israel murdered dozens of Jews in Turkey for their own ends. That is the crux of the "debate." As it always is.

Even when Jews are murdered, much of the world will blame Jews and their few friends.

[Aidoneus]

63. what "dozens of Jews in Turkey"?

most of the victims here seem to be Muslims.

[MikeGalos]

64. Um, OK, sure

After all, when somebody wants to kill a bunch of Moslems, they blow up Jewish synagogues.

Are you really somehow thinking this wasn't an attack purely meant to kill Jews?

[Aidoneus]

65. pretty sure it was indeed the synagogues as a primary intention

They seem to have just happened to be situated in a predominantly Turkish Muslim commercial area, with nearby shops trashed up more than the synagogues themselves were, judging from pictures and descriptions, anyway. That may be due to a difference in construction and building materials, or proximity, perhaps, and not necessarily some insidious conspiracy that I'm sure you'll assume I'm referring to.

Do note exactly and specifically what Blitz said that I responded to--"murdered dozens of Jews in Turkey". That is wrong on two fronts, the figure is not "dozens" and the predominant amount of victims from this initially appears to be Turkish Muslims.

A word of advice, Mike, in anticipation of where this is going and what has been as yet:--concentrate exactly and specifically on what somebody does, in fact, say, and not what you would've liked them to have said in order for you to kick in on this little routine. It appears there is still the tendency to put words into the mouths of those you speak at.

[Blitz]

67. Point taken

What I should have written is "Rather, within minutes of this atrocity the possibility was raised on this thread that the United States or perhaps Israel tried to murder dozens of Jews in Turkey for their own ends."

Actually, when the first "black ops" comen was written, no one knew who was killed; only that bombs went off near synagogues, so the natural assumption, when the comment was written, would have been that the victims were primarily Jews. The fact that this did not turn out to be the case doesn't change that.

In any case, this is all just semantics. My point remains unaltered by this clarification.

[bushisanidiot]

20. Someone Wants To Pull Turkey Into The Iraq War. Wonder who that could be?

Black ops if you ask me..

[James T. Kirk]

26. Oh, come on now!

I don't see how this could encourage Turkey to send troops to Iraq. If anything, the increased instability makes it more likely that Turkish troops will stay at home.

[Muddleoftheroad]

81. Terrorists never really attack anybody

It's always a blacks ops job didn't you know?

[smallprint]

23. Death toll at 17 according to AP

http://abcnews.go.com/wire/World/ap20031115_429.html

ISTANBUL, Turkey Nov. 15 — Car bombs exploded outside two synagogues in Istanbul during Sabbath prayers Saturday, killing at least 17 people and wounding more than 215, officials said.

Foreign Minister Abdullah Gul said there were "international connections" to the attacks, one of which blasted the city's largest synagogue, Neve Shalom, just as hundreds were gathered to celebrate a bar mitzvah, the coming of age ceremony for a young man.

...

A militant Turkish Islamic group, the Great Eastern Islamic Raiders' Front, claimed responsibility for the attacks in a phone call to the semiofficial Anatolia news agency. But NTV television quoted police as saying that the attack was too sophisticated to be carried by that group a local and relatively small organization and that recent intelligence had indicated al-Qaida could be planning attacks in Turkey.

...

Security has been tight at Neve Shalom since a 1986 attack when gunmen killed 22 worshippers and wounded six during a Sabbath service. That attack was blamed on the radical Palestinian militant Abu Nidal. The Iranian-backed Shiite Muslim group Hezbollah carried out a bomb attack against the synagogue in 1992, but no one was injured.

[underpants]

24. Yep Yahoo had it at 16 and then it switched to 17

Terrible.

[smallprint]

28. Death toll up to 20

http://www.abc.net.au/news/newsitems/s989981.htm

The death toll in two car bomb attacks near two synagogues in Istanbul on Saturday has risen to 20, an official from the city's health department said.

More than 200 people were hurt in the explosions, the official said, adding that the exact figure was difficult to determine because injured people were being transferred between hospitals.

...

The security camera of one of the two synagogues shows a person parking a car outside the building and the vehicle is later seen blowing up, security officials told Anatolia news agency.

Policemen who watched the tape from the security camera of the Neve Shalom synagogue, which was partially destroyed in the blast, said it showed a person parking a red station wagon outside the building and then leaving.

[nomaco-10]

29. Naturally the news spin is....

that it is al caeda. Reuters reports that a radical Turkisk muslim group has already taken responsibility. US news and the bush* cabal would have us all believe that everything gone wrong in the world is Usama Bin Laden, Suddamn Hussein and Baath party loyalists or Bill Clinton's fault. The road map has gone off track, in fact you could call it a certified train wreck at this point and we all know whose fault that is.

[Aidoneus]

30. took place in a predominantly Muslim area

casualties appear to be predominantly Muslim as well.
doesn't make much sense, but nothing else does lately so why not..

[nomaco-10]

32. The bombings were aimed at two Synagogues

the car bombings killed many muslims in the streets. There are massive numbers of injuries, not known if jewish or not at this point.

[Darranar]

33. Al Jazeera on this...

Al Jazeera

Gorvett says many of the dead and injured are believed to be Muslims.

''The districts where both bombs went off are predominately Muslim areas. The Sisli area is made up of lamp and furniture making workshops, all owned by Muslims.

"Most of the shops have been damaged by the explosion and the street is covered in glass.''

The injured have been taken to the Fifli hospital where doctors are appealing for blood donors to come forward.

This appears to confirm your statement.

[hel]

37. Most of the injured and dead are Muslims

who were just passersby. Only one person who was in the synagogue died, he was apparently the only one close to the doors.

Sisli is a mostly commercial area and non-muslims and muslims live side by side there, just like anywhere else in Istanbul.

[Darranar]

38. Link to source, please?

[hel]

41. Mostly Turkish TV and newspapers

They are all in Turkish, of course, but try this:

http://www.ntv.com.tr/news/243993.asp

[Darranar]

43. I was wondering mostly...

about your claim that only one inside the synagogue died - I don't doubt that it's possible, I would simply like confirmation.

Al Jazeera says "many" of the victims were Muslims, not most, and there were no exact numbers.

[hel]

46. It is not official

word, of course, not much is official at the moment. I saw it on TV. I'm trying to find a source in English that reports this.

Most of the Turkish media is reporting that only one person inside the synagouge -and was looking out of the window they claim, although I don't understand how anyone can possibly know this!- has been confirmed dead. Most of them are injured, they say. Some of them were injured while trying to get out, I have heard from a friend who himself was in there and got some bruises and small injuries because of panic.

[Aidoneus]

39. how close to the synagogues were the bombs?

has that been established yet? I suppose a particular detail like that would be in the Turkish media before anything else.

[smallprint]

40. The Neve Shalom blast was right outside-- a few feet away

I don't know about the other one.

[hel]

42. Just outside the buildings

Cars were not allowed to stop in the streets (they are all very narrow old streets there), it is believed (Turkish media reports) that bombs were inside trucks who were passing through the street very slowly. Apparently suicide attacks.

[smallprint]

45. That's not what some media are saying.

Security camera footage shows a car being parked right outside.

See my post # 28.

Of course that could be wrong too. There's a lot of confusion.

[hel]

50. Two trucks

Two trucks, that were passing very slowly; CNN Turk and NTV report the same thing.

And I don't think that they would allow anybody park there, any time. There were security guards just in front, two policemen who were guarding the synagouge died.

[smallprint]

51. Hmmm. The red car story must be wrong.

I wonder why they said that? Maybe a mistake.

[MikeGalos]

52. Right now both stories are being reported

Which you see depends on the news source. It's probably too early to tell which is right. Odds are that there were both a red car and a truck on the street at the time but differing eyewitness reports on which blew up.

[MikeGalos]

44. Not only one person in the Synagogue died

So far, at least 5 of the dead and 80 of the wounded have been identified as Jewish. They're not done identifying all the bodies so this probably isn't a final count.

[Darranar]

48. Link?

[papau]

60. Link below - but no sorting of the bodies into Jew and non-Jew - How

does one do that kind of sorting? Besides, are our feelings toward the act dependant on the religion of who was killed? And the fact that it was two Synagogues probably should be taken as evidence of an attack against Jews.

http://ap.tbo.com/ap/breaking/MGAO9WLS1ND.html

Simultaneous Car Bombs Hit Two Synagogues in Istanbul; at Least 20 People Killed
By James C. Helicke Associated Press Writer

ISTANBUL, Turkey (AP) - Twin car bombs exploded outside Istanbul synagogues filled with worshippers during Sabbath prayers Saturday, killing at least 20 people and wounding more than 257, officials said. <snip>

A huge crater was blown into the street in front of Neve Shalom, leaving the twisted wreckage of a car, as medical teams carried away bloodied and burned victims. The other blast hit the Beth Israel synagogue in the affluent district of Sisli, three miles away, collapsing its roof and littering the street with debris. <snip>

A militant Turkish Islamic group, the Great Eastern Islamic Raiders' Front, claimed responsibility for the attacks in a phone call to the semiofficial Anatolia news agency. But NTV television quoted police as saying that the attack was too sophisticated to be carried by that group - a local and relatively small organization - and that recent intelligence had indicated al-Qaida could be planning attacks in Turkey. <snip>

The Great Eastern Islamic Raiders' Front, also known as IBDA-C, has been accused in a bombing attack that injured 10 people in downtown Istanbul on Dec. 31, 2000. However, no one has claimed responsibility for that attack.

[sistersofmercy]

70. Turkey is about 95% muslim, very secular, amazing place and

the people are wonderful. There are some extremist Muslims there but very few in Istanbul. I know there has been major trouble with extremist in Ankara (spelling) for years, the Kurds have been a big problem as well. I hope my Turkish friends are OK. I hope that I can make contact later with them.

[psychopomp]

31. Can I blame Dumbya?

I mean, really. One thing that I would say almost all DU'ers are guilty of is an inability to see beyond the perspective of American bias. What I mean by that is that often world affairs are seen as being motivated by American foreign policy or in service of some domestic power.

Seriously, though, I see this as a direct result of AWOL sitting in the White House. I dunno... (self-psychoanalyzes)...I am probably only addressing my own sense of powerlessness in laying the blame on our idiot pResident.

[bemildred]

35. Sure, why not?

What good are enemies if you can't blame stuff on them?
There seems to be a good deal of confusion about who the
perps are, so lets let it develop for a while before casting
aspersions right and left.

[MikeGalos]

47. Seems fine to me

I have no trouble making a pretty solid case that this administration's inept to insane foreign policy is at least party responsible.

On the other hand, the Neve Shalom Synagogue where most of the deaths occurred was attacked by Palestinian gunmen in 1986 (killing 22) under Reagan and Hezbullah attempted to blow it up in 1992 under Bush I so maybe it's just a Republican thing. Of course, seeing how so many Bush II senior staff were the same people running things under Reagan and Bush I, maybe there's a point to be made.

[54anickel]

57. Interesting......always learning things here at DU

Could be coincidence, but an interesting point indeed.

[Blitz]

66. A Republican thing?

Might I suggest that its a Islamist thing? Or do you really believe that Islamists in Turkey stand down during Democratic administrations?

Well, just in case you're wondering, here is some of what went on in Turkey while Democrats were in the White House:

. . .

But the arrest and trial of dozens of Islamic terrorists did not dissuade more extremists from continuing to attack Turkish intellectuals fighting for the secular state and values. In July 1993 they set on fire a hotel where a cultural festival was taking place and 37 intellectuals were burned to death. (28) Aziz Nesin, one of Turkey's leading literary figures, was the main individual target of the fundamentalists. He was accused of intending to publish Salman Rushdie's "Satanic Verses." A trial opened against the suspects of the massacre involved only 20 participants of a much bigger group of those responsible. (30)

The fight of the security authorities against the radicals continued during 1994, when 659 members of Hizballah were caught, some of them responsible for murders of activists in exiled Iranian opposition groups. In January, four members of the Islamic Movement in Istanbul were arrested for their part in the killing of a Mojahedin-e Khalq activist, the Shah's ex-bodyguard and a member of the Kurdish opposition, KDPI.(31) In October, a six-man Hizballah team was arrested while preparing to assassinate, on orders from Iranian intelligence, a woman of Armenian descent guilty of employing "only" Muslim women in her brothel! They were also involved in the assassination of Iranian dissidents. (32)

This same year IBDA-C was responsible for 90 terrorist incidents, including five bombings in various cities. (33) A prominent cinema critic and writer, Onat Kutlar, was killed in December by a bomb attack carried by IBDA-C aimed "at spoiling the colonialist Noel celebrations." (34)

In 1995, attacks continued. IBDA-C may have been responsible for a bomb attack in January on the building of the Ataturk Association and the attempted assassination in June of a prominent Jewish community leader in Ankara. (35)

One of the most controversial terrorist activities of Hizballah in southeast Turkey has been the liquidation of dozens of pro-PKK activists, journalists, intellectuals and politicians beginning in the fall of 1991 and throughout 1992 and 1993. It has been widely assumed that this was the work of some splinter group. The amount of immunity it enjoyed from the security authorities due to its anti-PKK nature, earned it the name "Hezbol-contra." (36)

. . .

http://meria.idc.ac.il/journal/1997/issue4/jv1n4a2.html

It is worth noting that much of the Islamist terrorism in Turkey has been sponsored by Iran.

[hel]

71. Thanks for the post

Islamist terror is not only against your republicans and not only against Americans. It really is a threat to civilization. I'm not saying Islam is what they are about, they are terrorists, and "terror has no religion, no book and no nationality". (Can't recall who said that)

I remember the Sivas incident (the first one mentioned). It was one of the most terrible things that ever happened in this country, or anywhere else in the world. Dozens of Turkish intellectuals -left-wing- were murdered, burned to death while the public was just watching. Aziz Nesin himself (who was a communist satire/comic writer) did not live long after that. This is what our "Republicans", fundamentalist Islamists do. This is what we Democrats of this country, Kemalists, are fighting against. So beware of whom you are calling as friends because they are the enemy of your enemy.

I hope that kind of thing never happens again anywhere.

[Jack Rabbit]

72. Exactly

The Islamists consider themselves at war with the West, not with Bush. While Bush's policies have exacerbated an already bad situation, no one should get the idea that defeating Bush by itself will cause a cessession of Islamist terror.

The Islamists don't understand or don't care about the differnece between Noam Chomsky and a PNAC ideologue, let alone between Dennis Kucinich and Tom Delay or Howard Dean and G. W. Bush. Islamism must be seen as fundamentally a right wing movement that would impose an Islamic order on those who do not accept its goals and ideals, including most of the world's Muslims. Think of Randy Weaver on steroids. Don't expect them to be reasonable.

What we can hope for is that a Democratic administration that comes to power in 2005 will have a better sense of what it means to "drain the swamp" than do the Bushies and a better sense of when a miltary adventure has something to do with fighting terrorism and when it merely has something to do creating business opportunities for transnational corporations.

However, that by itself won't solve the problem. Islamists like Osama won't be placated; they don't need popular support to create havoc, just the indrediants to make a big explosion.

[Barrett808]

73. But they do need the shadow economy to finance their operations

I often say that nothing changed after 9/11, since almost no effort has been put into crippling the trillion-dollar black market infrastructure. as long as the shadow economy bacnking network exists, the jihadis, the mafiosi, the Enrons, the Iraqi insurgency, and the BFEE will be able to advance their criminal agendas.

[Jack Rabbit]

76. True, nothing has changed since September 11

That is because the Bushies have used September 11 as a pretext to enact an imperialist world order, not fight terror. They don't give a fig for the lives of average Americans or for the average Arab or for the average Latin American peasant. As far as they are concerned, the average American is expected to pay taxes and provide the cannon fodder for their colonial wars. Osama played into their their hands when he sent hijacked jets into the World Trade Center and the Pentagon.

Nevertheless, average Americans were the innocent victims of September 11 and nothing has been done to alleviate the possibility of another attack. Indeed, the invasion of Iraq had nothing whatsoever to do with fighting terrorism and simply allowed Bush's cronies in the suites of transnational corporations the opportunity to enrich themselves at the expense of working people in developing nations.

In that sense, not only can we say that nothing has changed since September 11, but that Bush has acted to exacerbate legitimate grievences against the elites of the global North that already existed among the common people of the global South. That will lead to greater insurgent movements, including acts of terror.

I don't know what you mean by a shodow economy or black market infrastructure. All of this can be seen in phenomena that sits out in the open in broad daylight.

[gulliver]

77. Looks like some pretty old citations there dude.

I think 1995 is the newest.

Yes, it does look like an "Islamist thing," but don't try to diminish the obvious suggestion that the GOP's Iraq war has something to do with it happening right now.

[smallprint]

68. UPDATE: 24 dead -- Haaretz

http://news.haaretz.co.il/hasen/spages/360960.html

Car bombs went off at two synagogues in Istanbul
almost simultaneously Saturday morning, killing at
least 24 people and injuring 150, officials said.
A militant Turkish Islamic group, widely believed
to be backed by Iran, claimed responsibility for
the blasts.

According to the Jewish
Agency, six of those killed
in the blasts - including an
eight-year-old girl - and 80
of those injured have been
identified as Jews.

...

Turkish police said the explosive-laden vehicles
used in the attacks were not driven by suicide
bombers. But Turkish Foreign Minister Abdullah
Gul later said he believed the attacks were the
work of suicide bombers.

[hang a left]

69. Aha! There you have it.

"A militant Turkish Islamic group, widely believed
to be backed by Iran,"

[flama]

83. Somebody just did something stupid

Historically, you don't mess with the Turks (everyone but the Hungarians feared them) and you don't piss off Israel (remember the Six-Day War? Who else could win a war in six days?).

My heart goes out to families of the victims and all who witnessed such devastation. I also feel sympathy for those involved with the perpetrators of this madness if their involvement was innocent. Whoever was responsible must surely pay. If they are lucky, their payment will come by nature and not by the Turks or Israelis.