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[leftchick]

1. why am I thinking it did not "crash"?....

They will always say crash from now on until the witnesses refute it.

[HawkerHurricane]

2. Alright, who sold them the stingers?

Ollie? Was it you?

[Barrett808]

5. The partisans will start breaking out the big guns now

They've sufficiently probed the occupation forces for weakness, and they know convoy patterns and such. Now they can really start going to town.

[0007]

14. Here we go again folks!

Now to find another link, anyone got one?

[imax2268]

140. Here ya go...

Here's another link to this story

[Cocoa]

7. Orrin Hatch too

Ollie and Orrin split the commission.

[KeepItReal]

8. Don't need Stingers...they had over 1500 Russian man-portable SAMs

"By 2002 Iraq's shoulder-fired, low-altitude missiles were primarily the aging SA-7 and SA-14s."

http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/world/iraq/air-defence-equipment.htm

[htuttle]

16. They've taken at least one down with just an RPG

There are hundreds of thousands of those.

If they find a vulnerable spot, like the Mujahadeen found on the Russian Hinds, they'll start taking them down with rifles. Wonder if our stellar military procurement process checked for that sort of thing? Oh, that's right. They don't have to check if stuff works anymore (like the Stryker, for example) as long as they get it delivered....sooner or later...

[HawkerHurricane]

81. Helicopters are vulnerable to ground fire

period. Attempts to armor helicoptors (Russian Mi-24 Hind, US AH-64 Apache) have been less than sucesses. There are just too many things that can't be armored. A bullet in a air intake is all it takes, and the Afghani did it to Russian Hinds using FLINTLOCK RIFLES!!!

[SpiralHawk]

15. Col. North will answer that question, Sir

When Hell freezes over. Col. North believes it was a manly and patriotic thing to equip our enemies with some of the latest weaponry, and then to lie about it to Congress. Sir.

[Ripley]

3. What is a civilian area?

Are there "military" areas in Iraq? It sounds to me like the entire country could be a potential "military" area.

Death toll 405 + how many in Blackhawk? 6? RIP.

[Cocoa]

10. very good question

Similar question abot that "building" that was the target of their big bomb attack.

Do guerilla enemies have known bases? If so, why can't we just take them? Maybe there's a good answer, I don't know.

[Ripley]

11. If they said "residential" area, I'd understand.

But "civilian area" sounds alarming to me. It clearly implies there are non-civilian areas. What are those?

[Cocoa]

17. it could be code, too

The helicopter was NOT shot down, so stop saying that!

I read a quote of a military source calling the other Black Hawk downing a "lucky shot." More likely, imo, is that the Iraqis have now figured out how to shoot down our helicopters.

[Rose Siding]

They have been clearing them out first

The owner of a warehouse that we bombed said his secuity guards had been sent away by the US. A house bombing was preceeded by the arrest of 6 "insurgents" and the rest of the residents were allowed to take personal items out.

They look to be opting out of any surveillance/spy stuff in favor of destruction.

[Rose Siding]

4. BBC page has a blurb at top

saying "US says more soon."

When did they start relying on the US for reports?

[htuttle]

6. Probably right around the time...

...that US troops started shooting or arresting journalists who got near the areas that 'crashes' happened.

[opihimoimoi]

9. Shit like this gatta strike terror in the hearts of all military parents

Damn, now they gatta wait for the dreaded shiny car. Damn.

[Turbineguy]

111. At some point

during the Bush campaign, I called a friend and told him: "We have to protect our children from this man."

[karlschneider]

12. Has to be an accident, it's not in the Sunni Triangle...

:eyes:

[Guaranteed]

13. Yahoo link

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=564&ncid=564&e=1&u=/nm/20031115/ts_nm/iraq_helicopter_dc

Sounds like two helicopters crashed into each other....

One CLIMBED into the other one, possibly...OUCH....

[Ripley]

18. Holy Crap!!

Two blackhawks down???? Lots of casualties I'm sorry to say.

[htuttle]

19. Sounds like more than an 'accident' was involved

From that link:

One witness reported seeing two helicopters in trouble. "I was watching TV when I heard a large explosion," said local man Mohammad Badran. "I looked outside the window and saw two helicopters.

"One was flying low and was on fire. The other was higher up. The first one climbed and hit the higher one. They crashed in separate areas."

Do Blackhawks catch on fire spontaneously?

[Ripley]

24. No, that's the Apaches.

Don't they crash regularly here in the US in training operations?

[Sagan]

28. from just that report...

I'd hypothesize that one Blackhawk was hit by RPG or SAM fire and then climbed and collided with the second one.

[janx]

55. Click on the link again...Most of the article is gone?

There's nothing in the article now about one helicopter's being on fire.

[htuttle]

57. It's still there for me

This paragraph is still there:

"I was watching TV when I heard a large explosion," he said. "I looked outside the window and saw two helicopters. One was flying low and was on fire. The other was higher up. The first one climbed and hit the higher one. They crashed in separate areas."

[Ripley]

58. Check the Yahoo link:

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=564&ncid=564&e=1&u=/nm/20031115/ts_nm/iraq_helicopter_dc

Witness report of first helicopter on fire is still there.

[janx]

61. Thanks--it's in the Reuters article as well.

This just makes me sick. It makes me ill. I don't know how much more we can take!

[jenk]

25. this is too fishy

I betting you a helicopter was hijacked

[saskatoon]

101. Yes because why would he CLIMB

[IndianaGreen]

29. I think the chopper was shotdown while participating in some sort of...

I think the chopper was shotdown while participating in some sort of military operation. The clue is in this sentence:

A rapid reaction force is reported to be securing the area and investigating but there is no immediate word on casualties.

This is Mosul, in predominantly Kurd controlled Northern Iraq. It would have take some time for the US to get any troops to a "friendly" area. I suspect that Mosul is not as "friendly" as we were led to believe. I also suspect that the Black Hawk was flying over Mosul as part of "Iron Hammer" and the so-called "rapid reaction force" were the ground troops participating in whatever they were doing over Mosul.

CENTCOM, as usual, is deceiptful as hell:

A U.S. military helicopter Saturday crashed near the city of Mosul in northern Iraq, a coalition military spokesman told CNN.

<snip>

He had no information on possible casualties or the cause of the crash.

http://www.cnn.com/2003/WORLD/meast/11/15/sprj.irq.main/index.html

They hate revealing the number of KIAs and wounded on this, the bloodiest month of the Occupation.

[jenk]

33. we've had skirmishes with the Kurds recently

It wouldn't surprise me if some Kurds shot at them

[sistersofmercy]

41. Excellent post! If you're interested I'll get a couploe of links for you

about Iraqi opposition groups. Also Amnesty International reports are very informative about what was taking place in N Iraq in the past few years. My only quibble with your post is calling the criminal war an occupation. As far as I know an occupation hasn't been officially declared. Different Geneva conventions apply of detainees in the case of an occupation. In other words during an occupation detainees must be legally charged or released within a set period of time. During war detainees can be held as enemy combatants indefinitely.

[htuttle]

43. The UN ruled that the US was now considered an 'Occupying Power'...

...a few months ago.

The US doesn't follow the Geneva Convention anymore. That much is clear to everyone.

[sistersofmercy]

59. Got a link I'd be very interested in reading the info but even

the conniving Wolfo'witless said we're still at war. Is there a UN resolution? If there is and the misadministration isn't abiding by GC's well, I won't be surprised about it. But I do have to wonder why the international community isn't addressing the issue.

[htuttle]

63. Looks like it was more Annan who said it, not sure of 'official' status

Here:
US Bridles as UN's Kofi Annan Calls It 'Occupying Power'
Published on Thursday, April 24, 2003 by the Associated Press
http://www.commondreams.org/headlines03/0424-06.htm

GENEVA - UN Secretary General Kofi Annan called today on the U.S.-led coalition to respect international law as the "occupying power" in Iraq, drawing immediate ire from U.S. officials.

"I hope the coalition will set an example by making clear that they intend to act strictly within the rules" governing occupations, Annan told the UN Human Rights Commission.

The United States responded that it had not been established whether the coalition that toppled Saddam Hussein's regime was an occupying power under international law but that coalition forces were nevertheless abiding by international conventions.

(more)

I guess the US disputing that label. No doubt it is...

[Spazito]

70. It is under the Geneva Convention, Articles 55, 56 and 59

Here is the link:

http://www.unhchr.ch/html/menu3/b/92.htm

[leftchick]

20. Rapid Reaction Force is on the scene....

from the reuters link

<snip>A U.S. military spokesman said initial reports indicated that a UH-60 Black Hawk helicopter had come down in northern Iraq and that a rapid reaction force was securing the area and investigating. There was no immediate word on casualties.

.......I am guessing one of their primary jobs it to keep information of the "crash" and how it happened at a minimum.

[DoYouEverWonder]

21. Sounds like two helicopters are down?

Of course local witnesses say they might have crashed into each other. Can't let the world think that for the fourth weekend in a row that the Iraqis took down another copter, no less two!

[54anickel]

22. Some local witnesses said two helicopters may have collided and crashed

http://www.reuters.co.uk/newsPackageArticle.jhtml?type=worldNews&storyID=403816§ion=news

Some local witnesses said two helicopters may have collided and crashed but the U.S. military said on Saturday it could not confirm this.

One witness reported seeing two helicopters in trouble. "I was watching TV when I heard a large explosion," said local man Mohammad Badran. "I looked outside the window and saw two helicopters.

"One was flying low and was on fire. The other was higher up. The first one climbed and hit the higher one. They crashed in separate areas."

[Rose Siding]

26. That reads like one was hit

and flew into the other?

[htuttle]

27. That is what it sounds like to me

One gets hit, catches on fire, pilot quickly pulls up, and hits the other.

[jenk]

23. damn

any word on how many injured/killed?

what brought it down? more rose petals? "hard landing"???

[jenk]

30. were these chinooks?

[Rose Siding]

31. The orig link says Black Hawks

They're smaller, right?

[54anickel]

34. The Black Hawk is the U.S. Army's frontline utility helicopter, designed

The Black Hawk is the U.S. Army's frontline utility helicopter, designed to carry 11 combat-ready assault troops, and is also used for medical evacuations.

http://www.reuters.co.uk/newsPackageArticle.jhtml?type=worldNews&storyID=403816§ion=news

[jenk]

36. I think so, looks like they seat about 8-10 each

[KeepItReal]

37. Blackhawks are smaller t. Main troop-carrying 'copter of US Army

[nostamj]

32. well, MSNBC has moved on to Paris Hilton

in an e x t e n d e d piece.

priorities!

[Ripley]

35. I've noticed that CNN, MSNBC, all of them

don't "do" news on the weekends. Instead they have hours of fluff Entertainment Tonight stories. When did that crap begin?

[Oreegone]

42. We don't want no stinkin' news

Not when people are actually watching TV....

[IndianaGreen]

38. I am sure that we will be hearing about Kobe and Scott Peterson next

and they will be followed by reruns of celebrity bios.

Sad to say, but on weekends Faux News has more "news" than CNN and MSNBC.

[Blue_Tires]

104. am i the only one

who can't figure out why anything that spoiled brat does is newsworthy???

[bobthedrummer]

39. I wonder if the pilots use speed from command like they used to.

that would increase the chance of accidents IMO.

[htuttle]

40. Especially when you're on fire

.

[caledesi]

44. Yeah, um, sure...the helicopter "crashed." Yeah I believe that. nt

[54anickel]

45. Witness - One crashed on a house in Borsa

Witnesses said the helicopter came down in Borsa, a residential neighborhood in Mosul, Iraq's third-largest city.

``I was leaving the mosque and I heard a boom,'' said Hani, a witness who only gave his first name. He said that two helicopters collided in mid-air before one crashed onto the roof of a house, adding that he did not know what happened to the other aircraft.

on edit add link - was too quick with the paste!
http://www.ajc.com/news/content/news/ap/ap_story.html/Intl/AP.V8639.AP-Iraq-Helicopter.html

[IndianaGreen]

49. There is a minimum of 3 crew aboard a Black Hawk = 6 KIAs

Pilot, copilot, and a crew member in the cabin. Black Hawks can carry as many as 10-11 additional soldiers. Assuming a minimum crew, we can expect 6 dead or wounded out of this incident, at worse, 28 dead or wounded.

[IndianaGreen]

46. AP confirms 2 Black Hawks "collided"

over Mosul

[Barrett808]

47. MSNBC just reported: Two black hawks *collided* over Mosul n/t

n/t

[spinbaby]

48. MSNBC mentions is

Two helicoptors from 101st collide in Mosul. They mentioned it in passing--not important, nothing to see here, probably an accident.

[leftchick]

50. A witness says they collided after an Explosion!

<Local man Mohammad Badran said the two helicopters collided after an explosion.

"I was watching TV when I heard a large explosion," he said. "I looked outside the window and saw two helicopters. One was flying low and was on fire. The other was higher up. The first one climbed and hit the higher one. They crashed in separate areas.">

....from Reuters

[IndianaGreen]

51. You think Bob Arnot is going to tell us how swell things are in Mosul

What about civilian casualties on the ground? Human bodies don't react well to helicopters crashing on top of their houses.

[leftchick]

54. I have seen dr. baghdad bob arnot say things are swell...

with a strait face with bombs coming down around him! The uber-whore of US media.

[NNN0LHI]

67. That ain't no shit n/t

[IndianaGreen]

52. Sky News: US Helicopters Collide

This is Murdoch's network:

US HELICOPTERS COLLIDE



Two US Army Black Hawk helicopters have crashed in the northern Iraqi city of Mosul.

There has been no cause given for the crash but witnesses said the two aircraft collided in mid-air.

A military spokesman said the two helicopters belonged to the 101st Airborne Division which controls northern Iraq.

Witnesses said the helicopters came down in Borsa, a residential neighborhood in Mosul, Iraq's third-largest city.

http://www.sky.com/skynews/article/0,,30000-12927788,00.html

[Barrett808]

53. "crashed onto the roof of a house"

Not a happy scene.

[IndianaGreen]

56. Update MSNBC

One witness reported seeing two helicopters in trouble. “I was watching TV when I heard a large explosion,” said local man Mohammad Badran. “I looked outside the window and saw two helicopters.

“One was flying low and was on fire. The other was higher up. The first one climbed and hit the higher one. They crashed in separate areas,” he said.

“The crash site has been secured by the U.S. military, Iraqi police and firefighters,” said the military spokesman, who spoke to The Associated Press on condition of anonymity.

http://www.msnbc.com/news/870749.asp?0cv=CA01

A minimum 6 dead and wounded from the Black Hawks. If they carried the full complement of 11 combat troops a piece, the casualties will be higher than the ones from the Chinook that was shotdown a week ago.

[MetaTrope]

60. The true cost to America of losing two Blackhawk helicopters

...about $66 million.

American soldiers' lives don't count.

[IndianaGreen]

62. 12 killed, at least 9 wounded (CNN)

now breaking

On edit: 12 soldiers killed, at least 9 wounded. This doesn't include any casualties on the ground when the chopper crashed over Mosul.

[prolesunited]

64. One taking ground fire

Went up to get out of way and hit the one above it.

Landed in residential area. Buildings on fire

[NNN0LHI]

68. Jebuz. Two birds with one stone n/t

[JackDragna]

65. Anyone "wounded" in that crash..

..is likely mangled and burned. I don't know how much more of this I can stand.

[Skittles]

66. AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA

I can't take much more of this. This is what happens when we let F***ING DIPSHITS STEAL ELECTIONS.

[Turbineguy]

112. Yes, to bad it's

too late for many.

[fishnfla]

69. I cant take anymore

no more. please. stop. call tomorrow june 1st. bring them home. fuck iraq.fuck bush.fuck it all to hell.

[jenk]

89. those choppers aren't free

out of whose pocket does this come out of?

unfortunately, some will pay for it with tears

sickening, bring the troops home

[bluestateguy]

71. Fox says US military reports one copter hit by an RPG

That would make this a hostile act.

It's time to bring the troops home.

[IndianaGreen]

74. I agree! It is time to bring the troops home NOW!

How many more must die before the rest of the country realizes that this is a no-win situation that Bush got us into?

[NNN0LHI]

72. Is Mosul in the Sunni triangle? n/t

[IndianaGreen]

75. No, it is in the "safe" Kurdish area

Nowhere is safe for an army of occupation!

[IndianaGreen]

73. Sky News: The Black Hawks were responding to an ambush

An Iraqi police officer said that he saw assailants ambushing a US foot patrol in the area, prompting the intervention of a Black Hawk helicopter.

A missile was then fired towards the chopper, which crashed into a second Black Hawk as it tried to dodge the missile, he said.

The two helicopters belonged to the 101st Airborne Division which controls northern Iraq.

The crash site has been secured by the US military, Iraqi police and firefighters.

http://www.sky.com/skynews/article/0,,30000-12927788,00.html

[buycitgo]

76. Fox says RPG hit one, CNN headline says.........

the first helicopter rose sharply, to avoid ground fire. no mention of actually being hit

fox goes back to Hillary bashing

[54anickel]

78. The one that rose was on fire per witness

“One was flying low and was on fire. The other was higher up. The first one climbed and hit the higher one. They crashed in separate areas,” he said.

Further back in this thread.

[Cannabian]

77. Here's the CBC story

http://www.cbc.ca/stories/2003/11/15/iraq_soldier031115

12 dead 9 injured. Another really shitty day for your troops.

[BuckeFushe]

79. NYT Article, hit in tail by RPG

http://www.nytimes.com/2003/11/15/international/15WIRE-CRAS.html?hp

[catmandu57]

82. The kurds don't want us there either

especially after we came to the aid of Turkey suppressing kurdish resistance. June 1st. isn't a magic bullet, they'll be killing Americans all over the world by then, in spite of our great homeland security they'll be bringing this crap to us, thanks a lot georgie*.
I'm loosing count but with the twewlve reported killed here, plus two from this morning that should bring the american death toll to 414, 56 in 15 days.

[htuttle]

83. Reading that account, I wonder whether this wasn't a chopper trap

Performing an ambush on a foot patrol would provoke a known response from the US. What they were really after in the first place might have been the choppers.

Seems to me that's an old, old trick.

[IndianaGreen]

85. Lessons from Vietnam

They are learning theirs, we forgot ours!

[NNN0LHI]

80. Operation "Iron Fist" appears to have had quite an effect on the Iraqis nt

[MisterP]

84. 12 dead, 9 injured says CNN

not again

[Cooley Hurd]

86. Jeebus H! I'm gone for a few hrs and come home...

...to find out about this latest tragedy. Fuckity-fuck!

[MaineDem]

87. Two US helicopters down in Iraq, at least 23 dead (Headline in error)

http://famulus.msnbc.com/famulusintl/reuters11-15-040818.asp?reg=mideast&vts=111520031234

Dear God!

On edit...I'm not sure that headline is correct. I can't find any mention int he article of 23 killed. Still looking...

Reuters corrected it's headline. Sorry about the panic. folks.

From Reuters (I don't have an account to get the actual story):
CORRECTED - WRAPUP 4-Two US helicopters down in Iraq, at least 12 dead
In BAGHDAD story headlined "Two US helicopters down in Iraq, at least 23 dead" please correct number of dead in headline to 12 (not 23) (Adds details on helicopter crash)

[54anickel]

88. Confusing headine....

Two U.S. helicopters crashed in northern Iraq on Saturday, killing at least 12 people aboard, after one was hit on the tail by a rocket-propelled grenade (RPG), a U.S. officer at the scene said.

Then further into the article it states:

Two U.S. helicopters have already been shot down in Iraq this month, at a cost of 22 American lives.

Don't know what to make of it:shrug:

[MaineDem]

90. The headline was wrong.

Thank goodness.

[colorado_ufo]

99. Did this include Iraqis - civilians or ? - on the ground?

[lebkuchen]

91. W/RPGs in Iraqi hands, the US helicopter days in the region are over

kaput

[VolcanoJen]

92. Sky News: US Officer says One Helicopter Hit by RPG

http://www.sky.com/skynews/article/0,,30000-12927788,00.html

Two US military Black Hawk helicopters have crashed in northern Iraq killing 12 coalition soldiers and wounding nine.

One of the helicopters was hit in the tail by a rocket propelled grenade, according to a US officer at the scene.

[saigon68]

95. NOTHING, TO SEE HERE just a few paint scratches

move along, move along!!!!

we have oil to pump.

And Chalabi (soon to be President) to entertain.

Bring on the buffet.

[MattNC]

93. this is tiring

i can't keep taking news like this

[UpInArms]

94. the jump from 300 to 400 was quick -

the jump from 400 to 500 will happen way too fast -

people need to wake up and see what the hell is going on before it is truly too late (if it's not already) and impeach this stupid f***wad and his warmongering cabal.

I can't stand this anymore - but I know that I can do so little - we need every citizen in this country to stand up and shut this shit down.

[freethought23]

96. Waking up may not matter.

After the Tet Offensive in 1968, polls consistently showed that Americans wanted unilateral withdrawal from Vietnam. Americans had "woken up" about Vietnam. But the war continued for another 7 years.

The same thing could happen this time. Bush might be defeated in the coming election. But not one of the Democratic candidates, with the possible exception of Kucinich (who doesn't have a chance) favors immediate withdrawal. Dean says we may have to say another couple of years. Clark is talking about the need improve the training of US forces in guerrilla warfare.

Just because Americans "wake up" does not mean that US policy will change. This would be true if America were a democracy. But...

[leftchick]

97. Some more information from Al-Jazeera....

<snip>no word on possible Iraqi casualties on the ground.

One of the helicopters that crashed on Saturday was hit by a rocket propelled grenade (RPG), a US officer at the scene said.

"I know one of the helicopters was hit by an RPG on the tail wing," said the officer who declined to be identified.

An Iraqi police officer said that he saw assailants ambushing a US foot patrol in the area, prompting the intervention of a Black Hawk helicopter.

A missile was then fired towards the chopper, which crashed into a second Blackhawk as it tried to dodge the missile, he said.


http://english.aljazeera.net/NR/exeres/8981A0B6-ACB7-44C3-87C0-011A5C7C87DF.htm

[librarycard]

98. Coalition forces? US? UK? Italian? Australian?

If it's Italian, it's going to be a large pill for the Italian electorate to swallow.

Bush said this was going to be a cakewalk. What gives?

[htuttle]

100. CNN says they were all Americans

From their front page right now:

Twelve U.S. soldiers were killed and nine were wounded today when two U.S. military helicopters crashed in a residential area of the northern Iraqi city of Mosul, a coalition military spokesman said.

http://www.cnn.com/2003/WORLD/meast/11/15/sprj.irq.crash/index.html

[karlschneider]

102. CNN International just said 17 dead.

:-(

[librarycard]

130. Strange that "coalition forces" was used--the US IS the coalition force

by and large.

A bitter pill indeed, for the US, but most Americans wanted this war, and now they are paying the unfortunate consequences.

Incredibly, I know people who still think it was all worth it, as long as we got Saddam's sons.

[Jackpine Radical]

108. In the new Journalspeak, "Italian" = Italian, "British"= British,

"Coalition = "American."

There are Italian casualties, British casualties, Polish casualties, etc., but only "Coalition" casualties. Not Amer...uh, Am...uh...
Only Coalition casualties.

[silverchair]

103. CNN says death toll has risen to 17

http://www.cnn.com/2003/WORLD/meast/11/15/sprj.irq.crash/index.html

[htuttle]

106. It will probably end up being 18

The story at that link says that one is missing there, too.

[54anickel]

107. In the last three weeks, 39 soldiers have died in five helicopter crashes

per your link.
Very sad.

[loudnclear]

105. Am I reading about the same incident? Al-jazeera differs.

""I know one of the helicopters was hit by an RPG on the tail wing," said the officer who declined to be identified.

An Iraqi police officer said that he saw assailants ambushing a US foot patrol in the area, prompting the intervention of a Black Hawk helicopter.

A missile was then fired towards the chopper, which crashed into a second Blackhawk as it tried to dodge the missile, he said."

http://english.aljazeera.net/NR/exeres/8981A0B6-ACB7-44C3-87C0-011A5C7C87DF.htm

Sounds to me like they are entrapment to me...they seem to be outsmarting us on every turn.

[Minstrel Boy]

109. 81 coalition troops killed in just 15 days,

assuming the helicopter fatalities remain 17 dead. An average of 5.4 a day.

[VolcanoJen]

110. Eighty-one?!!????!!!!

OMG. 81 coalition soldiers dead, in one month. And it's just halfway over.

Thanks, Minstrel Boy, for providing some much-needed clarity. It helps to understand why the Administration plans to "cut-and-run" in June, even if they've given it a different name...

[Minstrel Boy]

116. It surprised me too...

I got it from here:

http://lunaville.org/warcasualties/Summary.aspx

The November total is listed as 64, but below the graph there's this note: "Fatalities from Saturday's Black Hawk helicopter crashes have not been added. As details are verified we will update our data."

It's approaching the fatality rate of the height of "major combat" at the end of April. And with casualties approaching 10,000, it's pretty grim.

[saigon68]

121. NAH KIDS---- WE'RE WINNING " BRING EM ON" --The chimp

We warned them this would happen.

I was one of the first.


A stupid War with no Long term Goal--- No EXIT strategy.


Just a bottomless MONEY Pit where lives, truth, honor and dignity are destroyed for the greedy amibitions of the corporate rulers and their pet chimpanzee---- the shrub

[caledesi]

135. saigon...I was around during Vietnam and you are SO right! nt

[Turbineguy]

114. That's almost as high as Vietnam

Today I was reminded of those apparatchics who stormed that courthouse in Florida during the election recount. They can be proud of their handi-work on days like today.

[0007]

117. Those apparatchiks were none other than the Tom Delay thugs.....

[54anickel]

118. Jackpine Radical makes a good point in #108

Hope the folks catching this as the little blurp in the news put the 2 together.

"Coalition = "American."

There are Italian casualties, British casualties, Polish casualties, etc., but only "Coalition" casualties. Not Amer...uh, Am...uh...
Only Coalition casualties

[Guaranteed]

132. My....fucking....God..........

This is unbelievable....this is like my worst nightmare coming true....

I had no idea we were going to be so prophetic. We saw this stuff coming, but I don't think any of us really believed it would come to this....and it's only getting worse.

What the FUCK are we going to do???

[caledesi]

137. BGL...yes, we predicted this horrible state of affairs on DU.

Months ago! This make me sick :puke:

[VolcanoJen]

113. CNN now calling the victims "17 U.S. Soldiers."

CNN has dispensed with the "Coalition Soldiers" language, reporting, just moments ago,

"17 U.S. Soldiers were killed and 5 were injured today when 2 Black Hawk helicopters crashed in the northern Iraqi city of Mosul. The helicopters apparently collided when one of them moved quickly to avoid ground fire."

[newyorican]

115. I knew I shouldn't have looked: I knew I shouldn't have looked:I knew I sh

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1022465/posts

I'm going to need a shower.

[Cooley Hurd]

119. Psycho alert!!

To: MikeJ

We have to honor our fallen soldiers by standing up to the left. Lock and load.


2 posted on 11/15/2003 12:51 PM PST by bulldogs
< Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies >

Lock his computer and load his pants?

[hadrons]

126. Tom Tomorrow: Chicken Hawk Down

To: MikeJ

We have to honor our fallen soldiers by standing up to the left. Lock and load.


2 posted on 11/15/2003 12:51 PM PST by bulldogs
< Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies >

Lock his computer and load his pants?

Tom Tomorrow has this guy's number:

[Lorien]

128. Hmmm... it wasn't the left

that sent those soldiers to die for Hallibutan and Carlyle profits. So how does murdering fellow Americans with no connection to the event serve to "honor" the dead?

Oops, wait a minute, for a moment there I was expecting a LOGIC from a Freeper! My bad. :eyes:

[IndianaGreen]

131. "we need every swinging dick in the unit to win."

What do you want to do? Shoot the left? The fight is out there, friend, and we need every swinging dick in the unit to win.

posted on 11/15/2003 1:01 PM PST by Archangelsk

I haven't heard the expression "swinging dick" since Nixon, which tells me something about the age of Archangelsk. The problem here is that there are people that think that victory is possible, as they think that we could have won any sort of war in Vietnam.

Bring the troops home now!

[Guaranteed]

134. I actually think that victory

could be possible if we had someone else in the White House, and different standards (e.g. *A* standard) of what victory is. I don't think that, at the moment, in the White House's view, there exists a true "victory" that can be chosen from the few options that we even have. The thing is that they went into the situation KNOWING what the possibilities were. They expected things to hang in limbo for years on end while they milked cheap oil out of the country for their asshole corporate buddies. Now they realize that this is a political disaster, and they're going to pull out, which is actually the LAST thing the Iraqis need.

This is SO fucked up. It COULDN'T have gone worse.

[caledesi]

138. The sad part is that it is going to get worse. nt

[NNN0LHI]

145. Don't think so

Can you tell me what victory in Iraq would be? And what would we have to do there to "win"?

Don

[Cooley Hurd]

144. It's that same ill logic that makes them also believe...

...that the "War On Terra'" is winnable. How do you attack an unseen enemy (an enemy that has spread itself throught the world) with conventional weapons? The obvious answer is: you cannot...

[htuttle]

146. That's his solution? Attack leftists in America?

Does he think that it will help the troops in Iraq for them to have to worry about their parents in the US getting attacked by right-wing death squads?

He's nutz. He's also probably 14 years old...

:eyes:

[Sagan]

120. yep

I love their new talking point about quoting relative statistics of traffic accidents and world war 2.

I'm sure that's a great comfort to the wives, mothers, fathers and children of those dying in Iraq for Halliburton's profits.

[Swede]

123. I find such blindness to the uselessness of this war

mindboggling. Wasting lives for nothing but a lie.

[jpgray]

122. Disgusting!

They are comparing the casualty rate to that of World War II? HOW do these wars bear any comparison to each other? Next they compare the deaths to the murder rate in large cities--How does that make any sense? The number of coalition forces in Iraq is much smaller than the population of a large city--it would be more like if 17 NY cops got offed in a single day.

Also, they justify it by claiming the jihadists aim to dominate the world. They don't aim for that at all, they want to dominate their own countries. Since we refuse to allow them to do that, they attack and hate us.

Justifying your ideology as soldiers die is the most disgusting and reprehensible thing I've ever encountered. There is no army of conquest on our borders--one man sent our own army of conquest to THEM. We are paying for that with our sons' and daughters' lives. Any lurkers here, read that--explain how your boogeyman "jihadists" are going to be able to kill a boy who is working his job or going to school in Wisonsin or in Georgia. Well, luckily for them, Iraq is a busride away, and all those Georgia and Wisconsin boys are conveniently packed into a small area.

[Rebel_with_a_cause]

127. As if the statistics of WWII were all that appealing

Why would anyone want to repeat WWII?

[Guaranteed]

133. These people can't be Americans.

Seeing their responses to actual dead American soldiers, and their lack of compassion, or COMPREHENSION, even, makes me want to puke.

[Guaranteed]

136. THAT'S IT. I'M GOING TO TELL THOSE BASTARDS OFF. nt

[judgegina]

124. Deadliest day.....yet.

n/t

[Rebel_with_a_cause]

125. Operation Iron Hammer isn't having its desired effect

After 9-11, liberals said that if Bush were to wildly strike out in retaliation, he would end up falling for a trap.

Now that our forces are spread so thinly about the planet, being whittled away through attrition and poor maintenance, I can't help but feel that the US is going to suffer a deathblow here at home. Everything, absolutely everything Bush touches turns to shit sooner or later.

Now we wait to see if Bremer will be bumping up that "independence" date to Christmas 2003.

[Kamika]

129. Wanna bet if these death wil even count as official deaths??

The pentagon and fox etc have this habit of only counting ppl that were clearly shot or so as a casuality so in their world we have only lost about 150 soldiers altogether.

And since they say they actually crashed instead of got shot down..

[Guaranteed]

139. Kick

[fizzana]

141. Those freepers are using the argument that we need to take the

fight to the Jihadis and not wait for them to come and get us. I agree 100% except there is one problem with that. The people they're fighting now in Iraq aren't even Jihadis. They might end up being allied to the Al Qaeda but they started out just being people pissed off that Ameirca is occupying their country.

In effect, the U.S. has become the perfect recruiting vehicle for Al Qaeda and we're helping them get recruits every day. Meanwhile Bin Laden is chuckling in his cave.

[4dsc]

143. The bush Fedayeen are a restless bunch

but I wonder how many are willing to join the fight by joining the US Army??

Probably NONE..

[jmcgowanjm]

142. CNN 10AMHelo was trying to land -rotor hit other helo-BS!

STILL not the lead story!

How does another nonAmerican story
lead on America's most trusted(BS) network!

http://english.aljazeera.net/english/Templates/GeneralArticle.aspx?NRORIGINALURL=%2fNR%2fexeres%2f8981A0B6-ACB7-44C3-87C0-011A5C7C87DF%2ehtm&FRAMELESS=false&NRNODEGUID=%7b8981A0B6-ACB7-44C3-87C0-011A5C7C87DF%7d&NRCACHEHINT=Guest