Colorado considers eliminating 12th grade

[Avalon Sparks]

Colorado lawmakers have asked education officials to study the possibility of eliminating the 12th grade and establishing a year of preschool instead. They said it would better prepare students for college by giving them an early start and possibly save money.


"I'd really like to see if we might change the model," Republican state Sen. Ron Teck said Monday. "We've been operating under the same education model for the last 100 years."


Colorado is the first state to discuss the elimination of the senior year to replace it with preschool, said Jennifer Dounay, a policy analyst with the Denver-based Education Commission of the States.

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=514&e=9&u=/ap/20031119/ap_on_re_us/no_senior_year_4

Oh hell, let's just do away with book learning altogether

[Elidor]

1. Holy Flippin Fuck!

What planet have I landed on? This is just too much! Top of the list Conservative Idiots! Morans!

[Ellen Forradalom]

2. Because there's nobody left by the time 12th grade rolls around?

:shrug:

[otohara]

3. Cost Less For Preschooler

vs a teenager - otherwise why else would a republican want to do this?

[DUreader]

9. Pre school seems like it should cost more

if you were doing it right

[Wickerman]

19. Bingo

Its much easier to warehouse pre-schoolers.

[ant]

4. actually...

...while it's wise to be skeptical of anything put forward by Republicans, I'm not so sure this is a terrible idea in and of itself. Maybe preschool would be more useful, and if the three remaining high school years are adjusted appropriately you could minimize any potential losses. Quality over quantity, after all.

Yeah, it'd be nice to have BOTH preschool and 12th grade, but until then I'd like to see what people who know education and child development might be able to do with this suggestion. No harm in thinking outside the box.

(Something I think is good even though I've ended both paragraphs with cliches. :))


Edited to add this link:
http://www.pburgea.org/_Articles/02-03/A05/SeniorOptions.htm

While it doesn't address the "saving money" point, perhaps a more gradual transition to work/college would be good for teenagers.

[NashVegas]

5. Senior Year

In my HS, 12th grade was comprised almost soley of electives. College bounds needed 3 years of study in their major and college-level or pre-college classes were elective.

[Stuckinthebush]

11. I have to agree with ant on this one

While it is very dangerous to trust that a Republican has the best interests of the students at heart, he may be on to something.

Educational research is clear that the early years are the most important years of a child's life in terms of preparing her for education. A very good pre-school program would be much more beneficial in the long run than a senior year if you had to choose. There could be an increase in the number of required courses over the 9-11 years that would make up for loss of some required courses during the 12th year.

Interesting idea.

[R Hickey]

48. I agree the idea is a good one, but quite a reversal of GOP policy

Republicans have been trying to eliminate "Head Start" for years, and Bush has lately almost succeeded. Democrats have been promoting Head Start since its inception.

There is no need to end Colorado's twelfth grade in order replace it with pre-schools for tots while constructing prisons for the older kids.

I'm going to take a wild guess here. Did Colorado, since Reagan's drug war, happen to quadruple their prison population like the rest of Amerika?

Colorado should re-examine their pot war. Do they have a policy of manditory sentencing for kids and young adults that smoke pot?

If they closed down a percentage of their prisons used in the failed "Drug (pot) War," Colorado's government might be able to pay for high-school for their kids.

[Bandit]

70. Easier to brainwash pre-schoolers than High school Seniors

It makes good sense in GOP mind set. Start the brain-washing as early as possible and you have a nation of sheep. No independent thoughts allowed.

[Trillo]

6. School = Slavery

Of my high-school years, I can honestly say it has helped me as an adult to no degree greater than zero.

It's time to get rid of the farce called high-school education, and turn it into either into something Meaningful and Prosperous for the graduates, or simply pay the students for the time they're being "babysat." Slavery, after all, is supposed to be illegal--unless of course you're a student.

[Name removed]

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[Name removed]

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[nadinbrzezinski]

50. School should not equal slavery

and I may say I hated school when I was there

That said, school SHOULD HAVE A FUNCTION, which these days it is failing... horribly so

By the way, I must commend yuo on your choice of Sci Fi, and I take it fantasy too

But HS should have and at once point it did have a redeeming qualtiy, before it was dumbed down to the point that they are going lets get rid of the 12th grade, so they can go faster into oh... McDonnald cheap conservative jobs.

The less the kids learn the least able they'll be able to revolt

[Name removed]

71. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[alittlelark]

86. Schools are warehouses

that permit parents to be wage slaves at the local Wal-Mart. I pulled my 2 out of school after the principle told me not to worry about my kids being bored because the other kids 'will catch up". I now have a 2nd grader doing 4th grade math, and a 4th grader writing novellas.
The US spends less on education than any other developed country. From the sound of that Colorado article....that's still too much.:puke:

[davidinalameda]

7. I'm intrigued by this

it would be cheaper but I'm also thinking that it might be better

[Mr. Brown of MD]

8. I don't know about you, but 12th grade was mostly worthless for me

I could have easily done without 12th grade and I would not have been missing a single thing from my education by not having it. All I took that was required was a government class that rehashed things I'd been learning since 5th grade, and a British Literature class in which I re-read half of the books I read when I was in 9th grade, and in neither case did I learn anything that I consider to still be useful to me.

I'd say it's probably a proposal worth hearing out, notwithstanding that it is being proposed by Republicans. At the least, something should be done to make the 12th grade year more useful.

-CollegeDude
IMNSHO

[54anickel]

10. Ditto, 12th grade was party, party, party!

[leesa]

21. I suspect you had an option to make it useful.

There are usually college courses or tech school classes to take. Don't blame the system if you are to lazy to work for an education.

[Indiana_Dem]

12. That's a progressive idea....

I never thought of that. What would be done with that last year then? Straight to college? Or a year in some type of community service providing some time to mature at the same time--then a year of college tuition free!!! Yes! Something like that!

Yes--when I was in 12th grade the only requirement I had was Government/Sociology and a business lab (major) and electives.

College bound now, though, need 4 years of some things. Like 4 years of math, 4 years of English and the government/social science requirement.

[WhereIsMyFreedom]

45. Well, look at that, they all have a year free.

It would be the perfect time for them to serve a new mandatory military service. Heck, wouldn't need the draft then.

[AntiCoup2K4]

66. And there's the real reason......

...and it's confirmed by the fact that Jebbie has already announced his intention to do something similar in Florida.

[Yavin4]

13. You Don't Need No Book Learning When

you have Rush, Sean, Bill O'Reilly, Fox News, and AM Talk radio to tell you what you need to know. You don't need to think for yourself.

[girl gone mad]

14. I agree with those who say

12th grade is a total waste of time. I dropped out in 12th grade, and if anything it helped me get into college. I told my dean I had dropped out because I wasn't learning anything useful and he was impressed.

At the time, I felt I was being taught exacty what corporate America wanted me to learn to be a good future employee. The curriculum was neither challenging nor interesting, and I was in AP classes. Even advanced Calculus was geared far more towards business/management Calc. than hard science Calc. Of course, I think college has been heading in the same direction lately.

[jody]

15. Many states had only 11 grades before the early fifties. eom

[GreatCaesarsGhost]

16. will parents send their 17 yr olds

away to college?

[politicat]

79. Mine did... in fact, mine sent me off 600 miles away at 16, not 17.

And I had a 3 semester head start (the local community college was really cheap, like 12 a credit hour, so I paid for my AA with babysitting money.)

If the over-protective yuppie parents I see coming in to battle for their kid's grade in the department are any indication, though, they will not, and that will vastly improve the state of college education nationwide. We professors have no time to deal with parents who want ot justify little Meathead's pre-occupation with underage frat drinking.

Politicat

[dofus]

17. For many public school students

12 grade is a joke. Usually the only four year requirement is in English, and most students have taken everything else they need to graduate by then. A lot of students only attend part time their senior year. What to do? Increase the graduation requirments? Make it easier to graduate after 11th grade? There's more than one solution.

My kids attend an academically demanding independent school, and they're required to take a minimum of five solids every year, including senior year, no matter how many credits they've already accumilated. The up side to this is that they do very well when they go on to college. Research had shown that kids who take the minimum possible their senior year often struggle a great deal that first year of college, no matter how bright or how good their test scores.

As I said, there's more than one possible solution.

[cally]

18. I like this idea

I think 12th grade is worthless. I would like teens to be done with h.s. and able to do community service before college. I also think early childhood education is much more important than the mostly wasted 12th grade.

[trogdor]

76. OTOH...

...do away with 12 grade and you have a bunch of 11th graders with senioritis. If their schedules are empty, make 'em shuttle to the local community college part day. A worthy use of our school tax dollars.

On edit: Interesting thing, in Utica, NY, there was talk for awhile of making high school a FIVE YEAR program. The premise here is that it might help with the horrendous dropout rate there, but how this was supposed to happen was up in the air.

[leesa]

20. As if Americans aren't ignorant enough already!! Is the goal for

everyone to be ejukated like Bush is?

[Wickerman]

22. Many need the 12th year to finish up

Here at DU its a good guess that a lot of folks were well-prepared for college by the end of their Jr year. Hell, my senior year was blow off too. But, a lot of kids aren't going to college and can use the extra year to round out classes and instruction that they couldn't fit in over the previous 3. Some need to take a slower pace. Hell, some didn't understand what they were supposed to be doing until their Jr year and can use the 12th year to get the GPA up and get some heavier courses in. Those who aren't going to college, give em that extra year before they have to go out in lie in the shitty economy that Bush* has brought us. They have all their lives to be wage slaves.

[Endangered Specie]

23. I just finished 12th grade

last year. It was probably the hardest of High School, but I would definetly do it again, eliminating it is absolutely stupid. Without it I would lose 19 hours of college credit!

Hard working students (the few that there are), need the 12th grade to prepare for college/get AP credit.

How are Co. kids supposed to take AP exams w/o a 12th grade.

[kysrsoze]

26. Exactly. I had tough courses senior year which allowed me to CLEP 12 hrs

of college credit. When I graduated in '87, I had to have 4 yrs of math and English. I also needed 3 yrs of social studies and 2 yrs of science. If you drop out or blow off senior year, it's your loss. It's free and you should take advantage of it.

Also, what happens if you try to go to school in a different state where they require 12 yrs of school - you're S.O.L. It's just an excuse to undereducate kids. Those who go to preschool are that much more prepared, but it doesn't put them a year ahead in curriculum.

[jpgray]

28. Amen, sorry I missed the content of your message--AP is huge!

We people who do NOT want to pay for the full four years of college have the option of taking care of most requirements and a sizable chunk of credits for free and at High School. The senior year is the year this practice really comes into its own, since if you know your business senior year is all electives.

[Trek234]

33. Where do you live?

Please tell me. Last time I checked it would cost a couple hundred for APs. Oh I get it - this way the rich high school kids can get a jump start over the poor ones. Best not get rid of this little benefit.

[jpgray]

47. Minnesota, they were absolutely free

I am not rich at all, I just worked hard in high school. I had to work a job to help my family pay the rent of the house, so I take great offense at AP credits being labeled some program for "rich kids". The reason being is that 48 credits amounts to almost three terms worth of college credits. HOW is that in any way cheaper than three semesters of tuition?

[politicat]

81. Recognize that in most places, an AP test costs $75. Which put them

far out of my reach. The community college was actually cheaper for me, and so that's how I got my credit.

I skipped 8th grade, dropped out after my junior year, and went to college with a high school diploma (granted by the district) and 3 semesters worth of college credit. As far as I am concerned, high school is a waste of time for the vast majority of bright kids.

Since I have no experience personally with average kids, I can't say whether it's important or not to them, but since no one wants to pay for gifted education, this is the way that we can encourage our best and brightest and stop the brain drain.

Politicat

[jpgray]

89. Sorry, those numbers don't add up

The average tuition for a twelve credit load in a community college is $1,560 (http://www.cmonitor.com/stories/front2003/092903_commun_coll_2003.shtml). To get 48 credits as I did, you would need to take at least six to eight of the highest level AP classes, at a minimum cost of $450. Most schools have a program for low-means students that halve (or eliminate, in my case) the cost of the test, but let's assume the full rate anyway.

So community college tuition gives us about $130 a credit, and AP classes are about $9.38 a credit.

Either you have the cheapest community college in all of man's history, or you are telling me a fairy story. :) Which one is it? I would be curious to know what community college you attended, and why you were willing to lose about $5790 on the deal.

Also, hours spent in AP classes compared to hours spent in community college classes wind up giving you far more credits per hour. This frees up time for a part time job (I worked full time), so the opportunity cost of changing your credit plan from AP high school to community college is ridiculously high. This without mentioning the scholarships class rank and and recommendations can give you, plus the obvious social advantage of high school--that's where your friends ought to be. If you have numbers that show a different story, let's have them--I don't want to sound arrogant and priggish, but I owe a lot to the AP and high school system, and community college is NOT a cheaper way out for almost anyone. You must have had the deal of teh century to get 48 credits for cheaper at community college than at high school.

Edt: some clarity

[Trek234]

32. Hmmm

If you didn't have 12th grade you would have (I presume) went straight to college and probably would have gotten MORE college hours in that same time period. Your logic doesn't work.

<<How are Co. kids supposed to take AP exams w/o a 12th grade.>>

Yea, why take AP exams in high school when you could be getting college credit in a real college? Go figure.

[politicat]

80. Because we do IBP, and offer AP from Soph year on....

We are an International Baccalaureate Program state - 70% of our schools use the IBP curricula which is significantly better than the standard curriculum.

We also start doing AP classes in the Sophomore year. We don't wait for the Senior year.

We have no budget for school and have had to be very creative. When it's your state, you get to decide.

This is ours, so we get to decide.

Politicat (who does not complain that the kids coming into CUBoulder from certain other states can't write properly, read well or do arithmetic..... while Colorado grads can.....)

Typo corrected

[jpgray]

24. TERRIBLE idea. AP credits brought down my tuition considerably

You don't get those in preschool, folks. Poor students such as myself NEED those credits--I was able to get 48 of them, many during senior year, when I took AP Physics, AP Eng. Lit, AP Calculus and AP World History. These were all elective, and senior year was the ONLY time I had elective space enough to try for such a substantial amount of college credit, and for free. Don't deny disadvantaged students a chance at reducing the cost of college!

edit: grammmar errors can not be allowed to stay, given the subject of the post. :)

[Wickerman]

65. I support your thesis

but question that 48 hours will be accepted in AP credit by any college. Back in the day the best I could get any college to take was 32. That was two terms, based on 128 cu's to graduate. Maybe I am dating myself and you need more hours to graduate now?

[rocktivity]

25. I'd give this serious thought if there weren't a draft looming over us

Some of you have mentioned a year of community service. Would that include the military? A generation of 17-year-olds with no place else to go would be a Republican wet dream.


rocknation

[kysrsoze]

27. That thought certainly entered my mind...

how about a year of community service (which wouldn't necessarily be that bad), following by a mandatory 2 yr run in the armed forces? I don't trust these f*ckers.

[Oilwellian]

31. That was my first reaction as well

This idea could catch on quickly due to the state budget woes. Would they dare lower the draft age to "accomodate" these youngsters?

Hi Avalon :hi:

[Trek234]

34. Yep

Watch as the Clark supporters fully support "community service". Then read Clarks plans on this - you will find small little references tucked away regarding "possible" military service.

It's not just a republican dream. Oh, but wait this is Clark so I take that back.

[Beaker]

29. since we are no longer a mostly agrarian society-

The "education model" could use some major changes. Schools should operate year round, with a couple/few weeks between each term. Kids should be able to progress at their own pace. Today K-12 is 13 years of school- I'd envision some type of trimester or quarter system where students could choose to take one term off each year(equivilent of today's summer break), or not...with a limit on how many terms they can miss in X number of years(e.g.- back-to-back vacation terms would be allowed, but no more than two missed terms in a row). Some kids might be able to finish and graduate in 10 years or less, some may take 15, but the average would still pretty much be the 13 years we now have.

[Avalon Sparks]

36. A thought~

For those saying that Senior Year was a blow off year, don't you think that maybe Junior Year would end up being the blow off year if this is implemented?

[BeHereNow]

37. WAKE THE F##K UP PEOPLE!

ARE you joking? You must be joking.
If you are not then you are most certainly morphing into
sheeple before my very eyes.
So many of you seem unable to connect the dots.
THIS IS THE FIRST STEP IN LOWERING THE DRAFT AGE.
DON'T YOU GET IT?
Good god, I am going to puke,
and yes Wes Clark's civilian service corp, that can be
deployed by mandatory activation by the president
"in the case of a national emergency" (there are currently
twenty plus on the books- FOOLS! That means they can deploy
them as sonn as they "volunteer" do you not understand?
The national emergency status already EXISTS in twenty plus situations!)
Oh God, help the young people in this country when
the folks on DU can't grasp what is happening here.
Forget the Repubs and the Freeps, y'all will "bring it on"
just fine without them lifting a finger.

BHN

[nadinbrzezinski]

51. It is actually another step in dumbing

down of the people of this country

[politicat]

82. Cool down. You don't live here and don't know Teck.

Republican does not always equal evil at our state level. Teck isn't that bad. This is a one state, local test. We haven't passed it yet and don't know how it will work out until we try it.

It's a reasonable hypothesis for a non-agrarian society. It's a hell of a lot better than vouchers and charters and homeskool. At least they're thinking about education, which is an improvement over the last several years.

And no, I don't think it's a way of getting the draft age lowered. THAT, I didn't think I needed to remind you, has international implications and would get us in big trouble with the UN and our European allies.

Politicat

[JCMach1]

38. They have effectively done this in Florida

already.

[teryang]

42. Right, got to beef up the labor markets

...in the service sector with stupider workers. JebFRAUD even admitted it was a "devious plan."

Those Florida students who elect to remain for their Senior year will be glad they did, regardless of whether they continue their education. Students and workers today should continue their education in whatever way they choose, but they should continue. There are more meaningful vocational options these days other than academic curricula after high school but the basic academic skills always help. They help if only with the skills of daily living. Why handicap your brain?

[laylah]

56. Well.......

it's not called Flori-DUH for no reason :evilgrin:

jenn

Edit: apologies to our resident Floridians....

[Pattib]

85. My daughter's senior class grew by 25 this year.

This is the first year a student in Florida can graduate when they complete the 11th grade. Ten of the twenty-five students are going on to college. The rest? Who knows.

I don't know how I feel about this. I know my sister graduated a year early. She hated H.S. and wanted to start college. My parents let her. She was very mature.

However, I believe that the only reason this is being implemented by Jeb is to save money. Eventually we probably won't have a 12th grade at all. I wonder how soon the rest of the country will follow suit?

[freethought23]

39. This is a plan to increase the size of the labor pool

And drive down wages even further. Now kids will be entering the labor market a year earlier. As if outsourcing and illegal immigration weren't enough. Now they want child labor! It SUCKS.

[BeHereNow]

40. And make NO mistake-

Slave labor will include military/"volunteer" civilian service.
Oh holy fuck, when are people going to wake up...
So disgusted by the favorable responses here, I can't type...
BHN

[freethought23]

41. Exactly. Here's the proposed Universal National Service Act of 2003:

http://www.theorator.com/bills108/hr163.html

Proposed, I am ashamed to say, by Democrats John Conyers and Charles Rangel, along with other so-called "liberals," including, I am even more ashamed to say, Neil Abrcrombie, D-Hawaii, where I live.

This is a bill for a DRAFT--conscription, either to the military or to civilian service.

[BeHereNow]

43. THANK YOU!

I was beginning to think I was the only one...

[alittlelark]

87. rich college kids have to go to war too under this bill.

Rangel believes that war will decrease if ALL age-appropriate children are drafted. Gotta admit, I agree..Jenna and Barbara are of the age.....

[freethought23]

88. Endanger all youth to endanger rich youth?

Only the morally challenged would think up such a scheme--or approve of it.

[Lady President]

46. Horrible, horrible idea

My main question is what happens to the 16-17 year old graduates?

I think it is crazy that colleges push kids to decide what they are going to do for the rest of their lives when many aren't ready to decide. This would mean even younger people would be making life decisions. What would happen would be more students would change majors more often and colleges would get to collect additional tuition. I'm sure some schools would be hesitant to allow 16 year olds to live in the dorm, and I positively know that many grad schools won't allow any student who won't turn 22 before a pre-set date (i.e. Jan. 1) to enter.

Worse what about the kids that aren't going to college. You have to be 18 for most decent jobs, to work fulltime, or to work later hours. Plus, we would have these kids working minimum wage jobs who still would have to live at home because you can't rent an apartment until 18. This independent/dependent hybrid would be tough on families.

I know people say they were bored during high school because they were too smart, but those kids are few and far between. Most children with academic problems are slower to understand the material and need the extra time. The wealthy would send their kids to private "12th years" like the current prep-school optional 13th year and poor kids would get a cheaper and less complete education.

[ElsewheresDaughter]

54. imagine 16/17 year olds doing the college binge drinking thing?

16 year olds do/are not ready to handle the college scene

[Robb]

60. I was just fine. nt

[sandnsea]

61. No imagination, no foresight

Maybe you've been in Colorado too long. "I did okay" is the true mantra of the Republican. No problem is real until it smacks them right in the head.

Most 17 year olds are not ready to go out and support themselves. Studies show the numbers of kids staying at home until their mid-twenties is increasing, especially among males. There are no jobs out there. Having these kids out on the streets with no direction and no living wage jobs is a recipe for disaster. Kids graduate early and have been graduating early for decades, but it's not the majority. That's no excuse for cutting the senior year and then locking up the kids who end up in trouble because they have no structure and no hope for a future. Starving social programs so they can be cut. That's what Republicans do and that's what they're doing with education in Colorado. It's a tragedy.

[Robb]

63. Maybe you need a second cup of coffee...

;) "True mantra of a Republican"...is a little reactionary, dontcha think?

Besides, if you read the whole bit in context, there's a lot of evidence that reaching kids sooner helps with learning skills -- hence the preschool part of the issue.

It's still appalling to be the richest nation in the world, and have states deciding whether preschool or senior year is more important -- but coming from a family of educators, I know the overwhelming feeling is the teachers are playing catch-up from the moment the student walks in the door. It's a poverty issue, poor kids get less foundation educational skills because their parents can't afford daycare / can't read to them / can't get good neonatal care.

I also don't see how you think "keeping these kids off the street" another year is going to improve poverty. Again, if you lived in CO you'd know that we can't get tax money for anything, we just killed off an initiative that would've raised personal property tax a miniscule amount, and taken care of schools, emergency services, etc. It got killed. CO needs something, anything to go differently. Hell, if this works, fine. But what we've got is just broke.

"I did okay" was my way of saying that anyone who thinks 17-year-olds, intrinsically, can't be ready to leave home is thinking overbroadly. Don't yank my ACLU card, please.

[politicat]

83. Thank you Robb!!

I, too, am in Colorado. While I disagree with your assessment of the property tax measure we killed (the corps need to be paying more taxes, not we citizens) I agree that the system is broken and we have to do something and starting earlier is going to be a benefit.

I also think it will affect drop out rates. Here's the theory - kids start school earlier and get a "head start" so by 9th grade, they are effectively doing 10th grade work. They can't drop out until they're 16... or more than 1/2 way through their effective "senior" year.... and so stay in and finish.

I did beautifully going to college at 16 (or actually 14, when I started CC). I'm glad to hear that you did, too.

Unfortunately, I think this discussion has become a knee-jerk reactionary screed.... We know what we need... and most of these posters don't.

Politicat

[sandnsea]

90. Try harder

I'm sorry, but if I had to choose, I'd keep senior year. Some 17 year olds are ready, but most of the ones I see aren't. God the problems, the crime, the pregnancy, addiction, destroyed lives. For what? To take another step back to the 1900's, to move closer to creating an unthinking labor force who will work for nothing.

There's other ways to get early childhood help to kids besides creating a whole preschool program. This plan is not it.

[R Hickey]

49. Expand "Head Start" and close a "Drug War" prison instead.

Since Reagan's failed "Drug War" Amerika's prison population has quadrupled. Has our student enrollment quadrupled over the same time?

Why have Republicans always been against 'Head Start' before? Why are Republicans always against public schools but always for private school vouchers and bigger prisons?

The question isn't whether we should get rid of the twelfth grade and replace it with Head Start.

The question should be: "Should we close some prisons housing non-violent pot heads, and expand the Head-Start program which President Bush is currently trying to shut down?"

[SoCalDem]

52. HOW on earth will it save money??

Already, 18 yr olds are often too immature for college, so the solution is to get them even younger.. That make a lot of sense..NOT..

As it is, 18 (and sometimes 17) yr olds are plunked down in an unsupervised environment , when they are 3-4 years away from being able to drink legally, so the solutions is to make it 4-5 years??


This is all about "letting" kids join the "McDonald Generation" a year earlier than before..

[ElsewheresDaughter]

53. flowing Jeb...Jeb did it a few months ago..i posted it here..brb with the

link: http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=104&topic_id=541589

http://www.abcactionnews.com/stories/2003/08/030829earlygrad.shtml


TAMPA - It used to be that when a kid decided to drop out of school after the 11th grade, he was called a loser, a dropout. But in Florida, there is a different term for it now: graduate.

Florida is the only state in the country with an optional 12th grade. The plan was implemented as part of the state's response to the class-size amendment.

A national leader on public education says the only thing it is doing is making Florida a national joke.

"It's absolutely absurd. As I sit on the National School Board's board of directors, we're a laughingstock," said Pinellas County School Board member Jane Gallucci.

more...

gooled jeb bush 12th grade optional...lots of sites

[sandnsea]

55. Seniors finally have some brains!

9th & 10th grades were absolute disasters for my kids. They all finally got their hormones under control, their mental faculties in order, and turned up the volume their junior and senior years. I would hate to think of the kind of dimwits we'd have in this country without senior year. Bad, bad, bad, idea.

[Lady President]

72. Very true

I'm the first to admit that I did not have my act together in the 9th and 10th grade. I wasn't a troubled kid, but I was a late bloomer and my senior year was by far my most productive.

Speaking of hormones, I would also feel bad for the children who want to participate in sports. If you were late hitting puberty, athletics would be out of the question. And we all know that kids who are involved in sports do better in their classes and miss less school.

[Robb]

58. If you're not from Colorado...

...Then you're missing a lot of the context on this.

There are already many CO public high schools that support the IB (International Baccaulareat) program in the Senior year, in addition to whatever AP courses are made available. This is because over the last fifteen years, the number of students who have completed the prerequisite courses for graduation early has been increasing.

In this state, you can't raise taxes for anything; voters are just nuts. I think with very little tweaking, the system that's in place here right now could be ready for this. And yes, it's probably on the face of it a cost-saving measure; but the truth is, students are (somehow, no fault of the public school system) ready earlier. And frankly, a state-sponsored preschool would go a long ways towards helping two-income families get back to work sooner -- and start saving for college faster.

Sure, it's Republican-backed -- but it's also Colorado, and unfortunately that's how everything is served here.

[curse10]

59. Colorado IB and AP student here

and I had more than enough credits to graduate my junior year. I just stuck around so I could graduate with my friends. Took some fun classes :-)

And, on edit: I took most of my AP classes my junior year- they aren't just open for seniors

[Lady President]

73. Fun classes are important too

I took quite a few "fun" classes in 12th grade too, but they ended up being some of the most useful classes I took. In 12th grade I took Typing (thank god), Journalism (made college writing easier), Psychology (nice intro. for Psych 101 my freshman year), and Advance Government (focused on mock trial and led me to my current career as a lawyer).

Fun classes are worthwhile too. And, speaking as someone who attended 3 high schools, it's great that you'll always have a real graduation class. :)

[Foswia]

77. IB in Florida vs Colorado

A bit off topic but I must ask

In Florida IB students continue with the program because we receive free rides from state universities. From your post I assume Colorado doesn’t, so how do they retain students, especially if they only allow AP in the senior year? (We take AP Classes 9-12th, and the IB 10-12th, and every IB class always takes the appropriate AP test)?


IB Candidate, Florida

[dofus]

62. I actually graduated from high school in three years

instead of four.

My freshman year I realized that my senior year I'd only need to take senior English and the American Government course (Arizona required four years of history/social studies back then) and if I could go to summer school and take the extra classes then, I could get done early.

Which I did. It actually took quite a bit of persuasion, but eventually my high school let me be a senior my third year and I graduated, rather than being a dropout. It's a solution that could work for a lot of kids today.

AP classes didn't exist back then, other than (from what I've read) in a very small number of private schools.

My own kids have taken enough AP classes to enter college as sophomores.

[smirkymonkey]

64. Who needs education, when

they are all going to end up as industry fodder in low paying McJobs.

To the neo-cons, an educated populace is a dangerous thing.

[Hawkeye-X]

67. See what Republicans can do with Colorado?

Screwing us Coloradans every chance they get.

I'm a proud graduate of a public school here in Denver -- GWHS '93.

Finest education one can get. 'Course I was in the Computer Magnet (it has since moved to Thomas Jefferson)

I predict that whatever crap the R's will try to pass will be challenged in courts as completely unconstitutional.

And I also predict a revolt next year removing 90% of the R's and replaced with D's in the statehouse. Owens is definetely gone in '06 - Ken Salazar will challenge this effin' idiot and win resoundingly ensuring continuation of Democratic policies -- Colorado has always been a progressive state, and Owens is the lone exception -- excuse the hiccup of 8 years.

Hawkeye-X

[Robb]

68. Mrs. Robb went to GW

Classs of 88, so I suspect you didn't know her. ;)

...She told me it resembled a ball-bearing factory, aesthetically. But the IB program was great.

[kentuck]

69. This is just the beginning of he new Bush economy....

Budget deficits create some very ingenious ideas...

[LeftHander]

74. The new Bush McOnomy needs unskilled service workers

So having 17-18 years old on the street one year before college starts means more workers for WalMart and McDonalds.

They will also put hundreds of pre-schools out of business (as you know little liberals grow out of intelligence and we can't have that in a neo-con new world order)

I say subsidize pre-school for everyone who wants it and keep kids learnig until they mature enough to go to college...

Maybe a few less $$ for bombs and wepaons of mass destruction and more the grey matter of our children....

[On the Road]

75. DUH! Now I Get It

I thought this had to be a joke -- taking students rising from the 11th grade and sending them to preschool instead of 12th grade. :wtf:

OK. I'm on board now. Still think it's a bad idea.

[politicat]

78. Hold your horses!!! We who live here find this makes sense!!

1) High school seniors in Colorado take 6 classes a day; 1 of those classes is required (government) and could be done in the Junior year. Some High school seniors take physics and or calculus, but a growing number are taking those classes in their junior year because they've had advanced algebra in Junior High and Biology 1 in 8th grade.

2) Early childhood education is critical to achievement later in life. If a child is pre-reading (the 500 sight-words, knows the alphabet and is starting on phonics) at age 4 instead of age 5, the child will do better in elementary school. This also lets us get kids going earlier; for gifted kids and their parents, this is a god-send and will help average kids, too.

3) While I'd like to see it be optional, the kids in late high school I know don't need to be there and would in fact do better in college.

We're talking about it, haven't implemented it. However, the model we are using is not working and while this may be radical, I find it far less radical than vouchers, charter schools or homeschooling, all three of which I am violently opposed to. As local Reps go, Ron Teck isn't bad. He's reasonable.

Do us a favor and leave this to those it affects.

Politicat

[barbaraann]

84. Where I live, kids are eliminating 12th grade on their own

through various means because 12th grade is so worthless and stressful. One thing they are doing in enrolling in schools like Dartmoor http://www.dartmoor.org/ where they only have to show up for a few hours a week. Also, there is a program in Washington State called Running Start that allows 11th and 12th graders who qualify to enroll in college early.

I have a 12th grader and I talk to a lot of other 12th graders and they all have the opinion that 12th grade should just be eliminated the way it is taught now.