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NNN0LHI Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-18-03 10:28 PM
Original message
Destruction of Iraqi homes within 'rules of war,' spokesman says
Edited on Tue Nov-18-03 10:30 PM by NNN0LHI
http://www.bayarea.com/mld/mercurynews/news/special_packages/iraq/7293440.htm

TIKRIT, Iraq - The decision to destroy at least a dozen homes belonging to family members of guerrilla suspects in and around Tikrit was "within the rules of war" and was approved by the commander of the 4th Infantry Division and probably by the overall commander for U.S. forces in Iraq, a spokesman for the division said Tuesday.

But some military officers acknowledged that the tactic had caused debate over whether it would inflame opposition rather than tamp it down. One officer referred to the demolitions as "unprecedented."

The destruction of the homes is a sensitive issue because the tactic resembles a controversial Israeli practice of destroying the houses of families of suicide bombers in the West Bank and Gaza. The U.S. State Department previously has denounced the Israeli actions.

U.S. forces destroyed the homes on Sunday and Monday, after evacuating women and children, as part of an aggressive crackdown on anti-U.S. guerrilla forces. Those forces have shot down at least two helicopters in recent weeks and planted scores, if not hundreds, of roadside bombs in the area known as the Sunni Triangle.

more

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Scott Lee Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-18-03 10:30 PM
Response to Original message
1. How utterly.....Israeli.
.
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45th Med Donating Member (559 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-18-03 11:52 PM
Response to Reply #1
18. LOL!
Yeah, next we're going to bring in the Bulldozers.....
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newyawker99 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-19-03 01:06 PM
Response to Reply #18
27. Hi 45th Med!!
Welcome to DU!! :toast:
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45th Med Donating Member (559 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-19-03 03:44 PM
Response to Reply #27
31. Hi Yankee!
I'm glad I found a place of like minded people! I'm tired of getting flamed at all my other hangouts for posting Donkey news when it ain't welcome....

:(
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sujan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-19-03 04:01 PM
Response to Reply #1
34. reminds me of scores of villages burned during vietnam
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loudnclear Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-19-03 04:20 PM
Response to Reply #1
35. Whose law, whose war? Notice families of guerrilla "suspects."
How do Americans sleep at night?
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Kitsune Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-18-03 10:30 PM
Response to Original message
2. Legal or no, it's
A) Stupid and

B) Fucking evil.

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La_Serpiente Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-18-03 10:31 PM
Response to Original message
3. Geezus
Can anyone say Israeli/Palestine all over again?
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izzie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-18-03 11:01 PM
Response to Reply #3
13. Does not work their either.
If we keep doing it over and over maybe it will work? Well Bush will go down in History as the man that took the USA to a third world power. That is something anyhow.
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burrowowl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-18-03 10:32 PM
Response to Original message
4. Legal HELL!
Edited on Tue Nov-18-03 10:34 PM by burrowowl
It is reprisal and outlawed by International Law.
The news whores were even saying it was reprisal.
And we are not at 'war', we are occupying!
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kysrsoze Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-19-03 12:25 AM
Response to Reply #4
20. Actually, we are not occupying.... we are liberating!
Remember?
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Wwagsthedog Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-18-03 10:33 PM
Response to Original message
5. Winning friends
Spreading liberty, democracy and freedom.
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pinkpops Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-18-03 10:34 PM
Response to Original message
6. I saw a quote
"possible homes" of "suspected terrorists"
Doesn't sound like thre are being too careful what they destroy.
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kurtyboy Donating Member (968 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-19-03 01:48 AM
Response to Reply #6
24. Yep, there's a big problem--When you commit these acts minus
A little thing called "Due Process", You will face the wrath of not just those directly offended, but the wrath of all belonging to the same nation--Ba'ath, Sunni, Shia, Iraqi, impoverished,....whatever.\

Boy, we are stoopid!
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reprobate Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-19-03 05:50 PM
Response to Reply #24
36. Due Process?

Hell, bush don't believe in due process. That's for liberals.
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NNN0LHI Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-18-03 10:37 PM
Response to Original message
7. Bush will keep using "Shock and Awe" on the Iraqis until they cooperate...
...and lets us liberate them...from their oil.

Don

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pinniped Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-18-03 10:47 PM
Response to Original message
8. It's quite obvious...
that they are making up rules as they go along.

"The decision to destroy at least a dozen homes belonging to family members of guerrilla suspects in and around Tikrit was "within the rules of war" and was approved by the commander of the 4th Infantry Division and probably by the overall commander for U.S. forces in Iraq, a spokesman for the division said Tuesday."

This tactic is utterly disgusting as is their commander in jerk BULLshyt.

"But some military officers acknowledged that the tactic had caused debate over whether it would inflame opposition rather than tamp it down."

Entire families displaced? No debate about it. I don't think this will create more of these so-called "insurgents".:eyes:

"The destruction of the homes is a sensitive issue because the tactic resembles a controversial Israeli practice of destroying the houses of families of suicide bombers in the West Bank and Gaza. The U.S. State Department previously has denounced the Israeli actions."

Uh, when you can't beat em' join em'?:eyes:
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LibertyorDeath Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-18-03 11:00 PM
Response to Reply #8
12. Just shows their desperation.

"But some military officers acknowledged that the tactic had caused debate over whether it would inflame opposition rather than tamp it down."

Well Duh what fucking planet are these imbeciles from.

Do you really think it might inflame people watching their Homes destroyed by the US military because their son is SUSPECTED of being involved in defending his country.

Complete fucktards every last motherfucking one of them who carries this shit out.

This is what the American military has sunk to on the orders of an awol cretin

It's sickening.
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TLM Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-19-03 12:45 AM
Response to Reply #12
23. Hate to break it to you... targeting civilians is nothing new
Edited on Wed Nov-19-03 12:46 AM by TLM

And if it is wrong now, it was wrong then too.

______________________________________________________
http://www.balkanpeace.org/monitor/yeco/yeco06.shtml

THE LONDON INDEPENDENT, Monday, November 22, 1999
US 'lost count of uranium shells fired in Kosovo'

By Robert Fisk in Pristina

American aircraft used so much depleted uranium ammunition during the Nato bombardment of Serbia that US officials are now claiming - to the disbelief of European bomb disposal officers - that they have no idea how many locations may be contaminated by the radioactive dust left behind by their weapons.

British and other ordnance officers ordered to defuse live ammunition in Kosovo have been fobbed off by the US military with "security" objections - and then with statements that no record was kept of depleted uranium (DU) munitions used in the Kosovo war.

A growing number of doctors and scientists suspect that an explosion of cancers in southern Iraq is caused by the US use of depleted uranium tank and aircraft munition warheads during the 1991 Gulf War. British and American doctors have suggested that it may also be a cause of the "Gulf War syndrome", which has caused the death of up to 400 veterans. Despite these fears, Nato this summer refused to assist a UN team investigating the use of depleted uranium munitions in Kosovo.

But information given to The Independent by European military sources in Kosovo demonstrates just why Nato should be so reluctant to tell the truth about the anti-armour ammunition - a waste product of the nuclear industry which burns on impact and releases toxic and radioactive material when it explodes. For it transpires that DU was used by A-10 "tankbuster" aircraft for more than a month in at least 40 locations in Kosovo, many of them "fake" military targets set up by the Serbs to lure pilots away from their tanks and artillery positions.

More tragically, A-10 aircraft used DU ammunition in two attacks against Kosovo Albanian refugees, the first on 14 April on the main road between Djakovica and Prizren. Hundreds of civilians were wounded in these attacks, carried out when Nato pilots - flying at more than 15,000 feet to avoid any injury to themselves - bombed refugee columns in the belief that they were military convoys.
____________________________________________________


http://www.commondreams.org/views03/0923-08.htm

Given our collective recurring political amnesia, let's turn to an eye-opening August 1999 report from our British friends at The Guardian, concerning Clark's role as Supreme Allied Commander - a post viewed by Clark supporters as a major qualification to be our next president.

"NATO justified the bombing of the Belgrade TV station, saying it was a legitimate military target. 'We've struck at his TV stations and transmitters because they're as much a part of his military machine prolonging and promoting this conflict as his army and security forces,' U.S. General Wesley Clark explained - 'his,' of course, referring to Yugoslavian President Slobodan Milosevic. It wasn't Milosevic, however, who was killed when the Belgrade studios were bombed, but rather 20 journalists, technicians and other civilians... The targeting of the studio was a war crime, perhaps the most indisputable of several war crimes committed by NATO in its war against Yugoslavia."

If you think the Guardian editors were being overly harsh in describing this as a "war crime," keep in mind that a panel of 16 judges from 11 countries who, at a people's tribunal meeting in New York before 500 witnesses, found U.S. and NATO leaders guilty of war crimes against Yugoslavia in the March 24 to June 10, 1999, "humanitarian" attack on that country.

As for Clark's reputation among the rank and file in our military establishment, the highly decorated and straight-talking Col. David Hackworth has written that Clark is "known by those who've served with him as the 'Ultimate Perfumed Prince.' (He) is far more comfortable in a drawing room discussing political theories than hunkering down in the trenches where bullets fly and soldiers die."

And we haven't even scratched the surface in discussing Clark's idealization of the Powell Doctrine, which led to NATO forces dropping tons of depleted uranium bombs on Kosovo, creating widespread civilian sickness as a result of contamination associated with DU.
___________________________________________________________

http://www.guardian.co.uk/Kosovo/Story/0,2763,208056,00.html

A month later, with Nato getting increasingly frustrated about Milosevic's refusal to buckle, Mary Robinson, the UN human rights commissioner, said Nato's bombing campaign had lost its "moral purpose". Referring to the cluster bomb attack on residential areas and market in the Serbian town of Nis, she described Nato's range of targets as "very broad" and "almost unfocused". There were too many mistakes; the bombing of the Serbian television station in Belgrade - which killed a make-up woman, among others - was "not acceptable".

Nato, which soon stopped apologising for mistakes which by its own estimates killed 1,500 civilians and injured 10,000, said that "collateral damage" was inevitable, and the small number of "mistakes" remarkable, given the unprecedented onslaught of more than 20,000 bombs.

Yet once Nato - for political reasons, dictated largely by the US - insisted on sticking to high-altitude bombing, with no evidence that it was succeeding in destroying Serb forces committing atrocities against ethnic Albanians, the risk of civilian casualties increased, in Kosovo and throughout Serbia. Faced with an increasingly uncertain public opinion at home, Nato governments chose more and more targets in urban areas, and experimented with new types of bombs directed at Serbia's civilian economy, partly to save face. By Nato's own figures, of the 10,000 Kosovans massacred by Serb forces, 8,000 were killed after the bombing campaign started.
_________________________________________________
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MrSoundAndVision Donating Member (879 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-18-03 10:52 PM
Response to Original message
9. Oh man....
The Iraqis are going to love, just LOVE, freedom when there dead. It's gonna be truly grand.
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mbperrin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-18-03 10:55 PM
Response to Reply #9
11. Nice not being burdened with
all those worldly possessions, ain't it?

</total delusion>
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markses Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-18-03 10:54 PM
Response to Original message
10. Israeli, nuttin'. Old US practice: Zippo the hootches, GI
You know what's next:

"Friendly Iraqi! The Governing Council and the Coalition Provisional Authority are your friends! This area is controlled by the terrorists! You are being relocated to New Life Hamlet no. 24G, for your safety! Friendly Iraqi, anyone who remains in the area will be considered a terrorist under the Governing Council Resolution 74! Friendly Iraqi. The Governing Council and Coalition provisional Authority is your friend!...etc."

1. First, you deny the insurgency.
2. Then, you "deny the enemy valuable resources and cover" ("and if American casualties in the area of War Zone C doubled, and then doubled again, it wasn't happening in any damn Ho Bo Woods, you'd better believe it..."*) by lighting up the foliage and "abandoned buildings" along RPG Alley.
3. Then, you concentrate the friendlies (The old Vietnam joke will apply here as well: Put all the friendlies in ships in the Persian Gulf, then bomb the country back to the stone age. Then, sink the ships.) by destroying troublesome villages and towns.
4. All unconcentrated friendlies exist in free fire zones - These will not, of cou8rse "violate the rules of war" either, since the US is operating with impunity from the onset of this criminal invasion. To even speak of the rules of war now is a massive joke, known only to "secret men who know their secret safe."
5. Then you Smile Smile Smile.

No lie, GI. You gotta bring some to get some.
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saigon68 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-18-03 11:23 PM
Response to Reply #10
14. SEEN THIS BEFORE!!!!
The more things change.

The more they remain the same.
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leesa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-18-03 11:32 PM
Response to Original message
15. 'Within rules of war' during an illegal invasion?? I doubt it!
It is immoral and illegal from A to Z.
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tinnypriv Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-18-03 11:37 PM
Response to Original message
16. Er, the Israeli's demolish homes that have nothing to do with terror too
I hope the US army ain't going to be following that practice. :dunce:



Before and After in Gaza. Nice!
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PROUDNWLIBERAL Donating Member (220 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-18-03 11:38 PM
Response to Original message
17. The Lie Continues
Didn't we learn that this only sends more bodybags back home! Well at least we won't have to watch them on the T.V. Military types are so predictable, and so stupid!
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IndianaGreen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-19-03 12:24 AM
Response to Original message
19. Whose rules and whose war? Attila the Hun?
Or did the Bush regime borrowed a page from Nazis when they destroyed the entire village of Lidice, and shipped the villagers to a concentration camp, in retaliation for the killing of SS Obergruppenführer Reinhard Heydrich.
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JohnKleeb Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-19-03 12:42 AM
Response to Reply #19
22. There were so many Lidices in the nazi occupied territories
Many villeges and I think my own great grandmother's homeone in Slovakia ceased to exist.
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TheLastMohican Donating Member (753 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-19-03 03:40 AM
Response to Reply #19
26. Definetely
They even have the nazi name for the operation, which is called "Iron Hammer". The nazis tried to bomb the electric power stations of Soviet Union back in 1945 but couldn't succeed because of the cahnging situation on the front.
But these guys just follow the nazi book of law "ordnung uber alles" and that means for every german (american) soldier killed by insurgents they kill 100 civilian hostages, destroy their homes and put up several gallows in the center of the town to scare the crap out of the populace.
But they are wrong, this tactic backfires big time, soon they will have 9-10 year olds throwing grenades in their unsuspecting pants.
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wabeewoman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-19-03 12:37 AM
Response to Original message
21. We're freeing them from their lives...
There is another thread here http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=103&topic_id=21889 about how the repugs are already tiring of the freeing Iraq, democracy and that justification and are on to the 'they're all against us, bomb them, kill them all' etc. I noticed in the one article about destroying homes the comments from Iraqi's were that it was like Sharon. That is not being lost on the Arab world and is the main reason for the terrorism now. Its just another way of saying 'bring em on'.
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ClintonTyree Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-19-03 02:22 AM
Response to Original message
25. I thought the war was over..................
"mission accomplished" and all. This was just the "mop up". Does this mean that the Bush administration has miscalcuted once again? Looks like the war is back on to me.
We'll keep bombing these Iraqis until the peace is insured. They'll be dancing in the streets. <reprise>
This reminds me of that poster in just about any office complex. "The floggings will continue until the morale improves".
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atreides1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-19-03 01:56 PM
Response to Original message
28. Here's what the Geneva Convention Says
Geneva Convention

Article 31: No physical or moral coercion may be exercised against protected persons, in particular to obtain information from them or
from third parties.

Article 32: The High Contracting Parties specifically agree that each
of them is prohibited from taking any measure of such a character as
to cause physical suffering or extermination of protected persons in
their hands. This prohibition applies not only to murder, torture,
corporal punishment, mutilation and medical or scientific experiments
not necessitated by the medical treatment of a protected person but
also to any other measures of brutality whether applied by civilian
or military agents.

Article 33: No protected person shall be punished for an offence he or
she has not personally committed. Collective penalties and likewise
all measures of intimidation or of terrorism are prohibited.

Pillage is prohibited.

Reprisals against protected persons and their PROPERTY are prohibited.

Article 34: The taking of HOSTAGES is prohibited.

Article 31 was violated by Lt Col West when he allowed an Iraqi police
officer to be beaten into giving information(no physical coercion).

Article 33 is being violated every time the 4th ID blows up the house
of a family ACCUSED of having someone in the Resistance. You have to admit that destoying someones house because of something that another family member did is a form of punishment. And you could term this attack on the people of Tikrit as a reprisal.

Article 34 was violated by a brigade commander in the 4th ID about 2 months ago when he took the wife and daughter of an Iraqi general as hostages, to force the general's surrender.

I served with the 4th ID at Ft. Carson Colorado, from 1985-1987. As far as I'm concerned now they are little better then the 2nd SS, Das Reich. The only thing that the 4th hasn't done is to kill an entire
town of people, but with the present division commander that they have
I don't believe we'll have long to wait.
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Wendigo Donating Member (31 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-19-03 03:35 PM
Response to Original message
29. Firsthand response from Iraq
http://riverbendblog.blogspot.com/

"The troops were pushing women and children shivering with fear out the door in the middle of the night. What do you think these children think to themselves- being dragged out of their homes, having their possessions and houses damaged and burned?! Who do you think is creating the 'terrorists'?!! Do you think these kids think to themselves, "Oh well- we learned our lesson. That's that. Yay troops!" It's like a vicious, moronic circle and people are outraged…

"The troops are claiming that the attacks originate from these areas- the people in the areas claim the attacks are coming from somewhere else… I really am frightened of what this is going to turn into. People seem to think that Iraq is broken into zones and areas- ethnically and religiously divided. That's just not true- the majority of people have relatives all over Iraq. My relatives extend from Mosul, all the way down to Basrah- we all feel for each other and it makes decent people crazy to see this happening."

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gratuitous Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-19-03 03:42 PM
Response to Original message
30. Absolutely senseless
There isn't even a bad reason for doing this. I wish to God there were real human beings in those American uniforms, human beings who would say "No" to these illegal orders. Human beings who would defy their commanders in service to humanity.
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Garage Queen Donating Member (640 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-20-03 08:22 AM
Response to Reply #30
38. They're probably too afraid to speak up, gratuitous
Wouldn't want to be "accidentally" killed in a Friendly Fire incident, you know ...

Then again, part of the boot camp experience is to break these people down and get them to follow orders, no questions asked. And who knows what they're being told? Maybe they're being told that these are houses of actual terrorists, not just "possible" and "suspected". And with troops getting killed every day, well, they probably believe it.

Although, who can blame the Bushies for pushing this policy? I mean, look how well its working in the Middle East. Why, I hear that after a house is bulldozed, groups of Israeli and Palestinian children holding hands and strewing flowers in the streets .... this policy works GREAT!

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indepat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-19-03 03:47 PM
Response to Original message
32. Anything this Administration does is within the rules of war
or whatever rule is applicable to the particular situation: they are never wrong - they and their minions never do wrong because they are bound by no rules.
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0007 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-19-03 03:58 PM
Response to Original message
33. Sharon & junior walk backwards hand in hand with God as their co-pilot...
Do the real answers to the solution for sanity and peace wait in silence? Or is this war of horror preordained? If so then mankind is regressing.
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TrueStory Donating Member (112 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-19-03 07:17 PM
Response to Original message
37. Well, then using WMDs is within 'rules of war' as well
in other words: in War there are no rules
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