NYT: U.S. Plan to Lure Nurses May Hurt Poor Nations

[kskiska]

As the United States runs short of nurses, senators are looking abroad. A little-noticed provision in their immigration bill would throw open the gate to nurses and, some fear, drain them from the world's developing countries.

The legislation is expected to pass this week, and the Senate provision, which removes the limit on the number of nurses who can immigrate, has been largely overlooked in the emotional debate over illegal immigration.

Senator Sam Brownback, Republican of Kansas, who sponsored the proposal, said it was needed to help the United States cope with a growing nursing shortage.

(snip)

The exodus of nurses from poor to rich countries has strained health systems in the developing world, which are already facing severe shortages of their own. Many African countries have begun to demand compensation for the training and loss of nurses and doctors who move away.

more…
http://www.nytimes.com/2006/05/24/world/americas/24nurses.html?hp&ex=1148443200&en=54482b4d6035fdb5&ei=5094&partner=homepage

[Dave Reynolds]

1. Not to mention they will work a whole lot cheaper,

driving down the wages here.

[Princess Turandot]

15. In NYC virtually all nurses are unionized..

so nurses from other countries cannot drive down wages. This is really nothing new: nurses have been coming to work in the US for years.

[happyslug]

25. Unions do NOT keep wages up.

The Reason is simple, you can NOT price yourself out of the market. Unions at best increases wages 10-15%, the real advantage of Union membership is that the Union Represents its members against management, which is worth he price of membership (i.e. the membership is NOT subject to the at-will doctrine.

My point is even unionized workers are effected by imports of workers. When you had labor shortages (for example 1912-1919 and again 1942-1945 you had acute labor shortages and thus a huge increase in wages). During the 1950s you had a near match of labor supply to demand which kept wages up. During Vietnam and the 1970s you ended to have labor shortages followed by a labor surplus. Mot inflation as labor driven (As the economy heated up, people would go to higher paying jobs, Management in an effort to keep workers would increase wages, even to unionized employees. When the labor demand threaten to hyper inflate the economy the Federal Reserve would increase interest rates causing a recession easing the labor driven inflation (With the baby boom entering the market place in the 1970s you ended up with stagflation, Congress wanted to reduce unemployment and the Fed wanted to keep inflation down, both worked at cross-purposes causing the stagflation of the period).

Anyway, since the 1970s wages have stagnated, unions have declined (And this is more a product of wages going down which lead to less support for unions, than the decline in Unions lead to a decline in wages).

My point is UNIONIZATION does NOT increase wages, either in the industry unionized nor in the economy as a whole. Increase unionization is often a sign that Working Class workers are feeling more confident (i.e. they have less fear that management will fire them for union activities). The opposite is often the case, a decline in Unionization is a sign that the working class workers are less secure in their jobs and thus more afraid to join a union least Management retaliate against them (And I know such retaliation is illegal, but given most employees paycheck to paycheck existence they can not afford even the few weeks off work while the National Labor Relations Board gets around to ORDERING the worker to be re-hired).

Thus the importation of Nurses from the Third World will lead to reduce wages even in New York City WHICH IS THE POINT OF THIS LEGISLATION. Immigrations HAS ALWAYS been done to reduce Labor Costs (Even the importations of Slaves in the American South prior to the Civil War was an effort to keep labor costs DOWN).

In 1919, WWI was over and immigrations displaced by WWI swarmed to the US for Employment leading to the recession of 1921 (which lead to the 1921 Immigration restrictions since even the GOP was becoming afraid of the radicalization of the US Working Class, People tend to forget how well Debs did in 1920 in his run for President while he sat in a Prison Cell). The immigration reform of the mid 1960s was to ease the labor shortage of the mid 1960s (Caused by Vietnam and the fact the Baby Boomers were NOT yet in the work work in 1967 do to service in the Military or in Collage to avoid Vietnam).

We an go to even earlier time (the 1830s) where the Irish immigration caused a huge drop in wages (and lead to the first birth of the anti-immigration movement in the US). During the Civil war immigration continued so to keep wages low and the US had to lowest labor costs in the world during the late 1800s do to the US wages being kept low by immigration (Especially in the Coal and Steel Industry).

As to the "National Nurses Shortage", that has exists for over 30 years. Why? Because what hospitals want are LOW COSTS NURSES who are willing to work MAXIMUM Hours. This just burns out most nurses. The best solution is to increase wages and reduce hours, things hospitals OPPOSE. Thus the "National Nurse Shortage" will continue for Nurses are a SKILLED Profession that deserves increase pay AND higher respect then they get at the present time, but their employer, the Hospitals, do not want to give either. Thus the purpose of this law is NOT to solve the National Nurses Shortage" but to reduce wages of Nurses to what Hospitals want to pay.

The same goes for the "Need" to import engineers, and other technical workers. We have plenty on the unemployment lines at the present time, but none are willing to work for just over the minimum wage. Employers of Engineers and Technical Workers, on the other hand, want to hire them at the lowest wages possible and that can be achieved by importing them from overseas which drive down wages among native born Engineers and technical workers. This is true for Construction Workers (Where a lot of Mexican illegals are working) and other what had been in the 1960s high paid positions. Immigrates was used to keep labor cost down (i.e. by keeping wages DOWN).

IT has been predicted for over ten years that Immigration will be the next big issue in America. The reason for this is slowly the American people are realizing that immigration is REDUCING THEIR WAGES. Previously Americans believed that Immigrations reduced other people's wages or did jobs no America wanted to do, but the problem was Americans had ALWAYS done those jobs BUT NOT AT THE WAGES THEIR EMPLOYERS WANTED TO PAY (And with Immigrates did NOT have to pay).

This is basic economics, if you have a job you need filled, you increase the wage till it is filled. The problem was Employers did NOT want to do that, they wanted to hire workers at the low wage and asked Congress to get them the workers who were willing to do the work at the low wage they had set for the job. People are slowly realizing that the problem is NOT illegal Immigrations but Immigration being used as a tool to keep wages DOWN even among high end technical people like Engineers and Nurses. With that acceptance come anger, at the immigrates AND at Congress for NOT stopping the inflow. This will slowly build for even the immigrants will accept that to have higher wages the US must STOP importing workers. Thus as wages decline, the pressure to do SOMETHING will increase (And as wages decline you will have a decline in immigrants do to the US wages getting down to Third World Levels). People in the US do NOT want to live at Third World Levels (Even the Third World do NOT want to live at Third World Levels). Thus sooner or later something will have to give and immigrations will be stopped, either by legislature or the decline in the wages of Americans (And the later is to be feared, for if wages go to far you will have revolution in this Country).

[bobbieinok]

2. I've heard the US has been hiring foreign nurses for a LONG time

[Warpy]

9. I went into nursing 25 years ago

and hospitals were mini UNs then. I have worked with nurses from all over the world, most of them fine nurses.

It's hard on the patients, though, when one has a very heavy accent.

As for driving wages down, that's not happening, not yet, and it's not likely to. Hospitals are always tring to cut costs on the backs of nursing staff, cutting lab personnel and house keepers and all sorts of other positions and pushing the job onto the nurse's shoulders.

They'd find nurses who have dropped out of the profession flooding back if they'd do something about the JOB. Working conditions SUCK.

[AnneD]

21. Hate to disagree with you...

but it has kept Nurses wages down. They use every trick in the book to keep their labour costs down. Nursing homes in particular use over seas Nursing to cut wages.

[midnight]

32. O yes they are keeping nurses from securing the pay they

deserve. My husband has a pool nurse agency. After 9-11 big companys were able to get a slew of visas and all those foreign nurses have taken the positions for cheaper pay.

[NC_Nurse]

3. We wouldn't want to have to pay

nurses what they're worth, now would we?

BTW, there are already many nurses here from Canada and the Phillipines.

Imagine what would happen if they started importing doctors, lawyers and managers from elsewhere. Bet that wouldn't go over too well!

[treestar]

4. There has been a shortage of nurses for a long time, and they

have for years qualified as labor that is in shortage in the US. Nothing new here. No new gates being opened. All bushit.

[Indy_Dem_Defender]

24. No shortage of prospect nursing students though

I had a friend a few years ago who applied for nursing school, she had a GPA of 3.8 in college and wasn't admitted.

[rainbow4321]

26. Nursing instructors don't last long

Because of the low pay and the high amount of responsiblity of nursing students "working" underneath them is the clinical setting...plus alot of universities expect them to do alot of research/articles, get higher degrees, etc..
Between limited number of new nursing students/graduates, the loss of soon to retire nurses, and then the middle age ones who are just burnt out/quitting, my profession is soon to get screwed.
My floor can't keep nurses longer than a year. All we ask for is better staffing but the hospital bean counters can't seem to get it thru their thick skulls that it would be cheaper to retain nurses than have to hire/orient new nurses every year.

[no_hypocrisy]

5. Good Samaritan Hospital in Rockland County, NY just took away health

benefits from the spouses and families of its nurses. Not exactly a gesture that encourages homegrown Americans to go into nursing with lack of incentives like that.

Plus, I know a woman who works for a NJ hospital. The hospital charges her to go 2-3 times a year to the Phillipines and hires scores of nurses to bring back to work in the U.S. for much lower than ordinary wages for nurses.

[rainbow4321]

30. The Filipino nurses I know go into culture shock

once they get a taste of how nurses are treated here in the US. I've talked to some of the ones at my facility and they have told me that they are shocked at how little families do for their loved ones in US hospitals. Apparently back in their homeland the nurses pass out meds, do wound care, charting, and other specially trained patient/medical oriented tasks. Other basic needs are done by the family.
The nurses there are respected by the patients and the families. The families are expected to provide basic care for their loved ones...they get water for them or snacks from the floor's kitchen, help them get comfortable in bed, wouldn't think of calling a nurse to re-arrange the bed covers, maybe help them to a chair if needed, help them to the bathroom if it can be done safely, etc...
Then these nurses come here and have families call them into the room to hand the patient a cup of water that is well within the family's reach. Or call them to put a pillow under the patient's arms/legs. No, I am not exaggerating. Hell, I've had a family refuse to learn to change a baby's diaper "because the nanny will be doing that, my wife doesn't need to be taught".

[dysfunctional press]

6. it'll give them an incentive NOT to be poor nations...

more compassionate conservatism giving the third world a chance to pull itself up by it's own tattered and diseased bootstraps. (and giving those with medical training a "get out of hell free" card)

[AlamoDemoc]

7. Sandly western nations are now stealing health care workers from Africa

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/health/3083041.stm

UK still poaching African Nurses:

snip>

Nurses are still being 'poached' from Africa to work in Britain - even though there is a ban on recruitment from developing countries, unions have warned.

"The agents are here and they are opening up offices. They say 'If you want to get a job in Britain, come here'.

She added: "When agencies recruit from the banned countries, it means that people in these countries are not getting the healthcare that they need."

snip>

Dr Evan Harris MP, Liberal Democrat health spokesman, said: "We cannot simply blame private companies. If it is legal and there is demand for nurses, they will do it.

"It is the government's responsibility to stop unethical recruitment."

He added: "Poaching nurses does not even offer a long term solution.

"We need to 'grow our own' and 'keep our own' nurses in the UK."

[lovuian]

8. I wonder how long it will take for nations to shut the doors on

them leaving???

[crizzo5137]

10. awwwwwwwwww

[rodeodance]

11. beginning in the 1970's thousands of Phillipine nurses came here under

the same circumstances. Most knew English fairly well-not all as it was taught then in the schools there. I read recently that many married and never returned home. Yes, it did drain the Phillipines.

[AnneD]

22. Actually...

the training and exporting of Nurses in the Phillipines has become a a major industry. The Nurses are trained solely for export. They bring/send back hard currency to the Phillipines.

I could write a paper as to why we don't train enough here to met our future needs. If you are interested, let me know-you'll be one of the first non medical folks that ever asked.

[sadiesworld]

29. I'm a non-medical person who would love to hear more about this issue...

although you don't have to write a paper. :)

My guess is it's being done for the same reason it is done in other industries, i.e., to drive down wages and "break the back of US labor" (per St. Ron). The same thing has happened in engineering. They limited enrollment (even closing programs down) and now we have a "shortage" that can only be "fixed" by raising the H-1B visa caps. I guess the tech boom happened to quickly for the elites to get ahead of--they just had to stand by the ridiculous proposition that we didn't have enough tech workers even as US citizens trained their replacements.

It seems that the elites have created a "crisis" partially by creating untenable working conditions for nurses (nurse to patient ratios, e.g.). I would love to learn more.

Less money for the worker bees, more for the stockholders. It's the American way.

[One_Life_To_Give]

12. What happened to letting "The Market" decide

Thought this administration was about free trade and letting the laws of Supply and Demand work.
So if demand is exceeding supply. Pay them more and more will come.

[truthisfreedom]

13. hmm... *rubs chin*... Cuba?

[ramapo]

14. What is wrong with this country?

How about luring American citizens into these jobs?

It is way to easy for foreign workers to take employment in the U.S. I don't know if there are any other countries that put the foreign worker ahead of citizens of that country.

Just try to travel to Europe, or Canada for that matter, and get a job.

[gratuitous]

16. Yeah, a home-grown program is out of the question?

Identify promising students, pay for their nursing education in exchange for a commitment to work two or three years in specified areas that are under-served, then let them go where they want.

But, of course, that might cost a billion dollars every year, and that's a lot of money. Far better to flush a billion down the toilet every couple of days waging elective wars.

[Ragin_mad]

18. American citizens know how deplorable nurses are treated

and want no part of it. They are looking elsewhere for employment.

[bjb]

19. nurses

I find it hard to believe there is a nursing shortage. My son is a nuse and the hospital refuses to hire the necessary number of nurses to give the good care the patients deserve. Also, the hospital got rid of all the cleaning staff so the nurses get to do their jobs too. All this when the CEO makes forty million a year.

[Ilsa]

31. That is a huge part of the problem isn't it, the outrageous

salary and bonus for the CEOs. I wonder who empties his trash can and vacuums his office? I wonder if he wants any of his company's nurses providing care for him if he gets sick?

[AngryAmish]

17. why come to the US?

There are so many bigoted homophobe useless Americans who can't stand foreigners. This is the most backward place on earth, Nobody would want to come here.

[Ragin_mad]

20. So that would explain why we have an immigration debate going on

it must because of everyone wanting to leave this county.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

23. Most of the nurses and nurses aides in the assisted living facilities and

nursing homes where my older relatives have been living are African. Not African-American, African.

We just had a care conference for my stepfather, and the head nurse at the fine nursing home (no really, it's the Hyatt Regency of nursing homes) he's currently in was from Sierra Leone. The nurses aides at the assisted living facility where my mother is are from Ethiopia, Liberia, Nigeria, and Kenya.

[rainbow4321]

27. The last Iraq war funding bill had nursing stuff in the fine print

Not that the media reported it...the provision allowed for 50,000 visas to be for foreign nurses to get into the US. Translation: hospitals now get to turn to these nurses, pay them much less than the American nurses who refuse to put up w/ the hospitals' bullshit salaries and horrible staffing.
In one case, I know a Vietnamese nurse at my hospital who was brought over and hired on at $10 less an hour than the American nurses at my facility. But she was more than happy because the hospital bought her bath towels and bed linen as a bonus...and her husband got to be a stay at home dad, unlike in their homeland where they both had to work.
Look deeper into who is supporting all of these foreign recruiting bills and I imagine you will find hospital lobbyists and Congress people like Bill Frist (who's family owns HCA, one of the largest hospital companies in the US). THEY are the ones that benefit from all this, not the nurses who already live and work here.

[maveric]

28. Why dont we have more affordable nursing programs here?

I'm sure that here in the US we could have subsidizes, accelerated nursing programs to fill this void.
Accelerated programs are expensive and the junior college routes takes forever to finish.
Is this a dumb question?

[cap]

33. this is a crock of doo doo

ex technical workers did retrain to become nurses...

it's just that the hospitals want cheap foreign nurses instead of ex-techies ...

also, Americans complain about how they are treated as nurses.... Nurses are putting up with an incredible amount of abuse and overwork.