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rucky Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-24-06 06:18 AM
Original message
High School ACLU Adviser Is Fired for Stopping Prayer


Munford ACLU adviser is fired
By Lela Garlington
Contact
May 24, 2006

A nontenured Munford High teacher who was the faculty adviser for the newly formed ACLU campus chapter has lost her teaching job.

School officials gave her the news that they would not be renewing her contract on May 12. That's the same day a letter was faxed to the school by an attorney representing the American Civil Liberties Union of Tennessee. The letter requested that the school cancel all prayers during Monday night's graduation program.

After consulting with their local school board attorney and with the American Center for Law and Justice, the school did cancel all prayers, much to the dismay of many students and parents.

At Monday night's graduation, most of the 286 graduating seniors recited "The Lord's Prayer" during a time when Principal Darry Marshall had asked for a moment of silence and calm so everyone could "reflect on what makes this day so special."

more: http://www.commercialappeal.com/mca/local/article/0,2845,MCA_25340_4721819,00.html

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LizW Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-24-06 06:44 AM
Response to Original message
1. Good luck to the students and parents of Munford
Edited on Wed May-24-06 06:45 AM by LizW
Apparently they think they don't need highly qualified AP chemistry teachers as much as they need rote recitation of a prayer at a school event.

:eyes:
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depakid Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-24-06 06:56 AM
Response to Reply #1
2. My sentiments exactly
and good luck to the teacher- may she have the good fortune to find her way out of Tennessee to a place where both her scientific knowledge and her ethics are honored.
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Supersedeas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-24-06 09:43 AM
Response to Reply #1
7. apparently politics trumps science
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kestrel91316 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-24-06 09:56 PM
Response to Reply #7
21. Not quite. RELIGION trumps science ........................oy vey.
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rucky Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-24-06 11:16 AM
Response to Reply #1
8. Here's all the chemistry education they need:
God made chemicals that do miraculous stuff. You don't need to know how it works, just give praise that it does.
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NoodleyAppendage Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-24-06 12:05 PM
Response to Reply #1
12. Don't worry. As a lifelong Memphian, I can tell you Munford is hicksville
As a general rule, the regions between Memphis and Nashville are a wasteland of poverty, backwards-assed religiosity, racism, and Repuke ideology. Munford (or all of West Tennessee, for that matter) is not known for its Ivy League recruitment.

J
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acmejack Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-24-06 07:22 AM
Response to Original message
3. It is fitting and proper that this occurred in Tennessee
Edited on Wed May-24-06 07:24 AM by acmejack
Is Munford located near Dayton, Tennessee? We must keep our priorities...

http://www.msu.edu/course/mc/112/1920s/Scopes/

edit in depth link: http://www.law.umkc.edu/faculty/projects/ftrials/scopes/evolut.htm
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happyslug Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-24-06 09:38 AM
Response to Reply #3
6. You should try some other sites on Scoops
First NO paper at the time of he Trial believed Bryan "Lost" the Cross-examination (In face more recent scholars believed he "Won" up to 70% of the "Questions" while Darrow "won" about 20% with the remainders being "neutral".

Furthermore the Prosecution was for teaching Human Evolution not Evolution, the act in Question only proscribed the teaching of HUMAN Evolution. The Books actually used also taught Evolution (Through was to be revised within a few years to remove ALL references to Evolution).

Some sites on the Trial:
http://www.bradburyac.mistral.co.uk/tennesse.html
http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/amex/monkeytrial/peopleevents/e_gospel.html
http://www.bryan.edu/803.html

The Prosecution pointed out Jefferson statement (I am paraphrasing here) that it is a Crime to force someone to PAY someone else to TEACH what he opposes (This was in regard to freedom of Religion).

Thus the big dispute in the Monkey Trial "Did the State Legislature, as the representative body of the state, have the power to tell its EMPLOYEES NOT to teach a doctrine that the majority of the Citizens of that state oppose being taught?" as opposed to the Defense's position that to teach Science you have to Teach evolution (including Human evolution) even if the Taxpayers OPPOSE paying for such education? And to oppose such teaching of Science is a violation of Freedom of Speech.

Furthermore Byran did NOT consider the trial, in itself, significant (He had offered to pay the fine and had lobbied the state legislature the year before NOT to add any fine to the Statute as passed). His last statement on the case is below and point to his belief that the trial would be the start of a National debate on the issues in question and after extensive debate a resolution of the dispute would come about (Instead everyone retreated from the dispute for 40 years and because it was NOT resolved is back with us).
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acmejack Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-24-06 01:05 PM
Response to Reply #6
13. Well hallelujah and a-fucking-men!
And then god created man! Hang that heretic Darwin and burn his books! Stone his followers and let's celebrate our Christian heritage!

I made the error of believing the validity of not one but two collegiate websites, who would have thought they all lie! Who shall vet all future posts on this topic with? The Vatican for papal approval, or should I pm you first, you actually seem to be quite well informed on the topic. I must admit that I am too young to remember the trial itself & I actually considered it to be settled, until you informed me otherwise.
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happyslug Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-24-06 02:29 PM
Response to Reply #13
17. Defensive aren't we?
My only point was that the issue in Dayton in 1925 was more complex than how it is often portrayed. The problem in many ways was Darrow who wanted to use it at show he was a better speaker and debater than Bryan (Who was considered the best orator of his time). When Scopes heard the Darrow was willing to defend him he accepted the offer even through the ACLU did NOT want Darrow on the defense team (And the ACLU was paying the costs). Former Justice (and later Chief Justice Hughes) and former Democratic Nominee Davis (Nominated in 1924, lost to Coolidge) who would later argue the losing side in Board of Education vs Brown in 1954, refused to join the defense team for Darrow was already in the team (Both are noted for they grasp at legal and constitutional issues, something Darrow is NOT noted for). Darrow was a master Cross-examiner (and caught Bryan unprepared for the intense Cross-Examination Darrow did to Bryan) but being a master questioner is NOT the same as having a good grasp of the law, and the ACLU knew Scopes was a Constitutional Case to be decided on Appeal based on Constitutional Issues, while Darrow wanted to attack Bryan.

It is always interesting the Make up of the Defense and Prosecution teams, all were Democrats. Hay, who was the lead ACLU lawyer had been Bryan's Secretary when Bryan had been Secretary of State under Wilson just ten years before. Darrow had run for Congress in 1900 on the same ticket that had Bryan as the PResidential Candidate.

OF the two who REFUSED to join in, Davis was a Life-Long Democrat, Hughes a Life-Long Liberal Republican (Hughes would be made Chief Justice of the US in 1930 and would try to steer the Supreme Court to a more liberal stand during the Great Depression but it would take him 8 years to convince his the majority of his Fellow Republicans to support the New Deal).

The issues in 1925 was how do to balance the two problem, that of Majority Rule and the Freedom of Speech AND can the later trump the former even when the people are being ask to PAY for someone else's "Freedom of Speech"? Instead of concentrating on that issue, Darrow used the Trial to attack Bryan's religious Beliefs and made everyone mad at him and the ACLU (Who opposed Darrow's handling of the Case).

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acmejack Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-24-06 06:47 PM
Response to Reply #17
19. I was busy being mad about the dismissed teacher.
And about totally unrelated issues that should be left offline where they belong, my apologies. My inner child thrives, apparently. You obviously have devoted considerable time to studying it in great detail.

Were these gentlemen the "Dream Team" of that era? I was unaware of a rivalry, even if unilateral, between Darrow and Bryan.
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happyslug Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-24-06 09:47 PM
Response to Reply #19
20. Both were the Supreme Speakers of the time period
Bryan source of Income after he ran for President in 1896 was the Chautauqua lecture circuit where people paid to hear him speak (Often on Progressive ideas but also Fundamentalist Religion, through most often on the Threat of Greed which permitted him to attack the GOP of his day). In the Chautauqua lecture circuit he was second to Helen Keller. With the invention of Radio and then Television this circuit tended to die out (More replaced by Radio and then Television than a lack of interest in the subjects discussed). It was a primarily a RURAL Circuit, but at a time when most people still lived on the farm then in the city (1920 was the first Census where you have more people living in the urban areas than in the Rural Areas). Darrow went on a different lecture circuit, the Modern Rubber Chicken Circuit where he, like many speakers today, talked to business groups about subjects they wanted to hear. Notice the difference. While Bryan also went on the Rubber Chicken Circuit, his main thrust was Chautauqua lecture circuit. Bryan also would speak at any Church that wanted him to speak on any Sunday, which he did during the Monkey Trial. Bryan could and did make speeches as much as 2-3 times a week (and when he was Campaigning do that in a day). After his election to Congress in 1892 Bryan did NOT practice law till he agreed to give the Summation in the Scopes Trial. The lead attorney was the prosecution was The Attorney General of Tennessee who was assisted by Bryan's son, a US Attorney at that time (Bryan's wife was also an Attorney, but do to bad health did not practice in the last 20 years of her life).

As to Darrow, he did nothing but Criminal law after about 1910 (The Labor Movement abandoned him after he had been charged with Jury Tampering). While Labor abandoned Darrow, Darrow was able to do Criminal work that last 30 years of his life. In fact the Loeb Trial had occurred just the year before where he argued for hours about the influence on Nietzsche Philosophy on the Murders and that such teachings should NOT be held against them (Darrow avoided the Death Penalty for the Murder which given the evidence was the best he could so). Bryan actually used the Loeb Trial against Darrow in the Scope trial and by the Transcript Darrow was very upset about Bryan's use of it.

Thus Darrow and Bryan were the two best public Speakers of their time, but in two different speaking circuits. The two never meet ON THE SPEAKING CIRCUIT till Scopes. Darrow only offering his services to the Defense AFTER Bryan agreed to do the Summation. Bryan seems to have guess why Darrow wanted to appear for th Defense, it was Darrow's great opportunity to attack revealed religion in the form of Bryan. At the end of the questioning of Bryan, Bryan makes that claim and that he was willing to face such questioning.

As to the Actual examination, it is the fight of two old tigers in their mental prime. The problem is Bryan was unprepared for Darrow calling him as a Witness (but Bryan still was willing to go) AND Darrow main attack was defeated when Bryan himself said most of the Bible is NOT to be taken Literally but as stories to tell people how to live. Darrow seems to have wanted Bryan to be a Bible Literalist but Bryan had NEVER been a Literalist (in fact Rev Falwell attacks Bryan's position in Scopes for NOT taking the Literalist position). Thus while Darrow had been preparing for years to ask the questions he did (and Bryan had been defending those questions almost as long) in the actual trial Darrow had spent the day before preparing for his questioning of Bryan (and of course NOT telling Bryan he would be called to the Stand) Bryan was giving a sermon at a local church. Thus while Darrow was prepared, he was NOT prepared for Bryan's Answers. Thus the general consensus is Bryan "won" the question and answer period.

Thus why do most people think otherwise? First for over 30 years Bryan as a progressive Democrat had been attacked like no Candidate had been before him (Through the same types of attacks would be made against FDR, Truman, JFK, LBJ, Jimmy Carter and Clinton). In fact during the Scope trial a Reporter was writing his report while the case was still going on. When ask why don't he wait till the finish of the day Court hearing, his response was "I know what my editor wants". Basically the GOP given a choice to attack Bryan or Darrow attacked Bryan for they FEARED Bryan why more than their Feared Darrow. This attack continued during the 1930s for, as one Republican said, the New Deal was "Bryanism without Bryan". During the 1950s the Authors of the play "Inherit the Wind" remembered these attacks and decided to use the Scopes trial as a literal device to attack McCarthyism. Once the commitment to using Scopes as the basis to attack McCarthy was made, radical changes had to be made to the actual trial to make it work. Thus the Authors said in the prefix to the play, it is NOT based on any real case (Through parts of the transcript did make it into the play).

Thus the real reason is these attacks by the GOP, true or false, DO WORK AFTER A WHILE. As shown by the play "Inherit the Wind". Thus any attack by the GOP has to be answered not ignored. No answer people will believe the attack has merit (The attacks on Bryan and the Scopes trial had only began when he died five days after the trial, but after he had started his counter attacks on the people attacking him). This is one of the reason I contribute to this forum, I do not always agree with everyone in it, as a whole it is progressive and can be used to ATTACK the GOP and to Defend Democrats against UNFAIR ATTACKS BY THE GOP. How Bryan is remember should remind us ALL why we fight the GOP, GOP lies if repeated often enough AND NOT CONTRADICTED WILL BECOME THE ACCEPTED TRUTH 30 YEARS FROM NOW. That is the time difference between Bryan's Death and Inherit the Wind. 30 years of Attacks can undermine ANY progressive movement.

For more on the Chautauqua lecture circuit see: (It is NOT the best source but most historians ignore the Chautauqua lecture circuit for it is NOT political, nor a circus in the modern sense of the Word, it is something long gone and with it the understanding of its influence):

http://www.uiowa.edu/uiowapress/canthemos.htm
http://www.lib.uiowa.edu/spec-coll/Bai/redpath.htm
http://www.nd.edu/~rbarger/www7/chautauqua.html
http://sdrc.lib.uiowa.edu/traveling-culture/about.html
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happyslug Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-24-06 10:09 PM
Response to Reply #19
22. More interesting is Hughes and Davis refusal to work with Darrow
Hughes and Davis were the best appellant attorneys of the time period. Hughes had been a Supreme Court Justice (but resigned to run against Wilson for the Presidency in 1916) and Davis would be asked to defend segregation in Brown vs Topeka Board of Education (Hughes would be nominated as Chief Supreme Court Justice in 1930 upon the Death of Chief Justice and former President, Taft).

It is significance that the ACLU approached both to assist them in Scopes, but both refused because they did NOT want to work with Darrow. The reason appears to be Darrow had ALWAYS been weak on the law and the Constitution, but a great attack lawyer, when this case needed a good LEGAL team to argue the Constitutional aspects of the case. That was NOT Darrow's strength and keeping Darrow was the worse aspect of the Case for the ACLU.

This was the perfect case to take up to the US Supreme Court, and Darrow so antagonized the ACLU and the Public that all the parties agreed to drop the case after the Tennessee Supreme Court ruled it was error by the Judge to set the fine himself instead of leaving the Jury set the fine (as required by the Act). The case was then remained to the Trial Judge for a NEW hearing and to leave the Jury set the fine. When the case reached the Trial Judge, Scopes had moved on with his life (taking a Scholarship out of State), Bryan was dead and the ACLU was suffering financial shortfalls do to drop in donation do to how Darrow handled the original trial, so everyone agreed to leave the case die.

How can we blame for Darrow? Scopes. It was his trial so he had final say on who was to be the Attorney, Darrow had won the Loeb case the previous year so Scopes basically wanted Darrow to do his case also. Hays (The ACLU Attorney) could NOT talk Scopes out of it, thus Darrow stayed.

What a Case, Hughes vs Bryan facing the US Supreme Court on this issue. Limited argument and time these two would have given great presentations as to the issues in the case. Davis would have done as good as Hughes. Darrow's expertise would have been restricted do to his inability to speak on and on about the subjects (One of Darrow's Strengths, but most effective in front of a Jury than an appellant Court). Even in Scopes, when the Issues were LEGAL in nature Darrow was out of his element. Darrow's strength was convincing a jury by his presentation why his client was innocent OR why a lesser crime occurred than what the prosecution was claiming. Darrow strength was thus arguing the FACTS OF THE CASE, NOT THE LAW. This had ALWAYS BEEN DARROW'S STRENGTH and how he "Won the Loeb case (Darrow convinced the Judge that the Murders should get life not death). Thus Darrow was wasted in Scopes. He made great Theater, but the facts of the case was NEVER is dispute, thus the issues were one of law not facts. As a case based on law not Facts, Darrow was out of his element and was wasted in the legal aspects of the case.
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stepnw1f Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-24-06 07:55 AM
Response to Original message
4. Right Wing Taliban in Action
"If you aren't christian, the 'kind' of christian we are, we hate you." Can you say bigotry and the erosion of the "Seperation between Church and State"? I knew you could.
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TallahasseeGrannie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-24-06 09:26 AM
Response to Original message
5. This is too bad
but somebody really should have explained to the NON-TENURED teacher that a low profile for those first three years is adviseable and that perhaps the ACLU might not fit that description.

Boat rockers are the first to go. But after your tenure, you can rock all you want. One of the reasons for tenure, I guess.
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nini Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-24-06 01:10 PM
Response to Reply #5
14. so the separation of Church and State doesn't apply if you're not tenured?
Sorry, but if the boat rockers have to remain quiet at any time then we've already lost.
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TallahasseeGrannie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-24-06 01:22 PM
Response to Reply #14
15. Fact of life
You want tenure, you live three years very, very quietly. The Pope could move into the White House and you say nothing if you want to get tenure.

It isn't fair, it isn't ethical and probably not even legal. But it is reality. You have to make a decision: job or civil liberties. I personally chose job, but once those three years were up, I became very vocal. You can do anything you want in the background, but you don't want to step on toes during that period. And once you are denied tenure in a district, it is difficult to get another job in education.

Life in a bureacracy.
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nini Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-24-06 03:35 PM
Response to Reply #15
18. self delete
Edited on Wed May-24-06 03:49 PM by nini
self delete
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Blue_Tires Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-24-06 11:44 AM
Response to Original message
9. i hope she lands on her feet
she's better off without that school system, anyway
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Norquist Nemesis Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-24-06 11:47 AM
Response to Original message
10. ARGHHH!!!! The school consults with the ACLJ!!!
:banghead: :banghead: :banghead: :banghead: :banghead: :banghead: :banghead: :banghead: :banghead: :banghead: :banghead: :banghead:
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NoodleyAppendage Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-24-06 12:02 PM
Response to Original message
11. When or if this happens to me, I will recite the Bill of Rights...
At the same time the christofascists are praying during the "silent time," I would hope that TRUE AMERICANS would recite the Bill of Rights so the idiots can be educated as to why public prayer is not a good thing.

I may just keep a pocketsized copy of our founding documents on-hand for these sort of situations and would encourage others to do the same.

J
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Mr_Spock Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-24-06 01:41 PM
Response to Original message
16. "Nation of ass holes"
Just like the song in my signature.
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