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cal04 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-27-06 07:53 PM
Original message
The children of Guantanamo Bay(fresh allegations of HR abuses)
The 'IoS' reveals today that more than 60 of the detainees of the US camp were under 18 at the time of their capture, some as young as 14
The notorious US detention camp in Guantanamo Bay has been hit by fresh allegations of human rights abuses, with claims that dozens of children were sent there - some as young as 14 years old. Lawyers in London estimate that more than 60 detainees held at the terrorists' prison camp were boys under 18 when they were captured.

They include at least 10 detainees still held at the US base in Cuba who were 14 or 15 when they were seized - including child soldiers who were held in solitary confinement, repeatedly interrogated and allegedly tortured. The disclosures threaten to plunge the Bush administration into a fresh row with Britain, its closest ally in the war on terror, only days after the Attorney General, Lord Goldsmith, repeated his demands for the closure of the detention facility. It was, he said, a "symbol of injustice".

Whitehall sources said the new allegations, from the London-based legal rights group Reprieve, directly contradicted the Bush administration's assurances to the UK that no juveniles had been held there. "We would take a very, very dim view if it transpires that there were actually minors there," said an official. One child prisoner, Mohamed el Gharani, is accused of involvement in a 1998 al-Qa'ida plot in London led by the alleged al-Qa'ida leader in Europe, Abu Qatada. But he was 12 years old at the time and living with his parents in Saudi Arabia.

After being arrested in Karachi in October 2001, aged 14, he has spent several years in solitary confinement as an alleged al-Qa'ida-trained fighter. One Canadian-born boy, Omar Khadr, was 15 when arrested in 2002 and has also been kept in solitary confinement. The son of a known al-Qa'ida commander, he is accused of killing a US soldier with a grenade in July 2002 and was placed top of the Bush administration's list of detainees facing prosecution. "It would surely be really quite stupid to allow the world to think you have teenagers in orange jumpsuits and shackles, spending 23 hours a day locked up in a cage," a source added. "If it's true that young people have been held there, their cases should be dealt with as a priority."


http://news.independent.co.uk/world/americas/article620704.ece
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ayeshahaqqiqa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-27-06 08:16 PM
Response to Original message
1. Think of the tortures these people have undergone
How can anyone be normal after this, especially a young person? I have always said that if these people weren't anti-American terrorists before they went there, they are now. Gitmo has been the poster used for recruiting terrorists because we have not followed our laws nor international laws, thus making our nation a renegade in the eyes of many in the world.
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ninkasi Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-27-06 10:41 PM
Response to Reply #1
2. You are absolutely 100% right
Our country, under Bush, has resorted to torturing and imprisoning children. Regardless of Saddam's brutality, we have seen ourselves resort to the same methods. As the mother of three, I am sickened at the thought of what these children have gone through.

Bush has driven this country into the sewer, and ruined every decromatic principle we once proudly held in high regard. Until he, and the worst entire corrupt administration is driven from power, America will never been safe again. He is not only the worst president in America's history, he is the worst president that could possible be installed.
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EFerrari Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-27-06 10:59 PM
Response to Original message
3. The Red Cross reported more than two years ago that there were kids
being held there.

Thank you, George W. Bush, for shaming our nation by imprisoning CHILDREN FOR NO FUCKING REASON AND CALLING THEM THE WORLD'S MOST DANGEROUS TERRORISTS.

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NYC Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-27-06 11:55 PM
Response to Original message
4. They admitted they were holding children.
They said they were holding them separately (in a trailer?) and educating them.

Does anyone else remember this?
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Judi Lynn Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-28-06 11:34 AM
Response to Reply #4
11. Absolutely, I read that, too. It seemed so odd at the time. n/t
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NYC Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-28-06 11:38 AM
Response to Reply #11
12. And this article says they denied it.
There's no question answers change according to what they think they can get away with.
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Igel Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-28-06 07:14 PM
Response to Reply #12
19. They may have denied it,
but in 2003 (and maybe before) they were talking openly about it to the US media, and saying what they were doing.

Perhaps Reprieve should read the NYT or watch CNN. Or perhaps there's some subtle difference in terminology that they're obfuscating.

They've returned some kids. A couple, I think, they're still holding, for reasons that are unclear to me.
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NYC Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-28-06 08:48 PM
Response to Reply #19
20. Re terminology:
The children are aging. Soon, it will be true that they are not holding children.

That may be why they denied it, well after they had admitted it.
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Daphne08 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-28-06 10:50 AM
Response to Original message
5. Where is my country?
How many times have I asked that question in the last four and a half years?

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WhiteTara Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-28-06 05:03 PM
Response to Reply #5
14. I've been racked with that question since 12/12/00
sometimes I don't think I can stand it another minute. I have never felt such loathing or hatred in my entire life. It has catapulted me into more civic activies than I would have before. I'm even part of a memorial day parade tomorrow. The float is two women in in black driving a truck dressed as a hearse with a flag draped "coffin" a wreath of lillies and a sign that says In Honor of our Soldiers killed in Iraq and Afghanistan with the numbers of the dead and wounded. In the past I have written letters on one or two issues to my congresscritters, but I have sent an avalance in the past 5 1/2 years. Sometimes I see a slight shift here and there and gives me courage to go on. Sorry, I know I'm preaching to the choir. Let's just keep lifting up our voices.

Now, I'm off to write a statement for the parade masters to say as we drive by.
:hi:




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Djinn Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-29-06 01:34 AM
Response to Reply #5
32. 4 and a half?
any idea how many children were killed in Vietnam, Cambodia, Chile, Guatemala, El Salvador etc etc

if people persist with the notion that US foreign policy horror (or ANY powerful nations FP horror) is purely the fault of the neo-cons/BUsh/Republicans then it will never change.
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Terran1212 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-28-06 11:08 AM
Response to Original message
6. What the FUCK?
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w8liftinglady Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-28-06 11:31 AM
Response to Original message
7. One link..I'll find more
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w8liftinglady Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-28-06 11:31 AM
Response to Reply #7
8. ..
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w8liftinglady Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-28-06 11:32 AM
Response to Reply #8
9. ..
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w8liftinglady Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-28-06 11:33 AM
Response to Reply #9
10. ..
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0007 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-29-06 05:37 AM
Response to Reply #10
36. junior is a war criminal president that should be put away for good
Whitehall sources said the new allegations, from the London-based legal rights group Reprieve, directly contradicted the Bush administration's assurances to the UK that no juveniles had been held there. "We would take a very, very dim view if it transpires that there were actually minors there," said an official. One child prisoner, Mohamed el Gharani, is accused of involvement in a 1998 al-Qa'ida plot in London led by the alleged al-Qa'ida leader in Europe, Abu Qatada. But he was 12 years old at the time and living with his parents in Saudi Arabia.
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Peace Patriot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-28-06 05:02 PM
Response to Original message
13. Throw Diebold and ES&S election theft machines into 'Boston Harbor' NOW!
We can't just remain in a state of being appalled. There is so much to be appalled at, it is mind-boggling and paralyzing. The torture tortures me more than ANYTHING. It is even worse than killing people, because it destroys the human soul, of victim and tormentor. It is the ugliest thing of which human beings are capable. There is nothing uglier and more evil.

And yet we have a chief law enforcement officer of the United States of America who wrote the torture memo. Alberto Gonzales. And we have the President of the United States and the Secretary for Manufacturing War creating a CULTURE of torture as the M.O. of our military and intelligence agencies, and of the unaccountable private contractors whom they hire. It is beyond belief--into the realm of the fantastical--that our politicians and institutions could collapse so quickly and so utterly into this heinous criminal behavior.

But that's where we are. In the realm of the not-possible. And our obligation, I think--if we can't DO anything about it--is to find out why, and remedy our powerlessness as quickly as possible.

My analysis of the situation--and that of others--is that our election machinery was deliberately replaced, during the 2002-2004 period, with new electronic voting equipment that is run on "trade secret," proprietary programming code--code so secret that not even our secretaries of state are permitted to review it--with virtually no audit/recount controls, and that the Bush-connected corporations that manufacture this equipment (chiefly two, related corporations, Diebold and ES&S), not only pocketed the $4 billion that Bush's "pod people" Congress provided for funding of this radical change, but are also using their secret code to put a 5% to 10% "thumb on the scales" for Bushites and warmongers, in our elections. There is no way to tell for certain, since the election system has been made NON-TRANSPARENT and UNVERIFIABLE, but there is overwhelming inferential evidence that Bush did not win in 2004, and that other races have been rigged by these machines as early as 2002 (Congressional and Senate races). The chief problem with this rigging is that it is UNSEEABLE by human eyes, and can occur at the speed of electrons on a massive scale with clever, randomized programs than can self-destruct (leaving no trace). It makes massive, untraceable vote rigging EASY.

This transformation of our election machinery was engineered by the biggest crooks in Congress, Tom Delay and Bob Ney (abetted by Christopher Dodd)--with the so-called "Help America Vote Act"--and it explains a lot of things, for instance, why the Bush junta didn't come crashing down when the Abu Ghraib photos were released in May 2004. That should have been the end of the Bushites. (SIXTY-THREE PERCENT of the American people oppose torture "under any circumstances"--May '04). It explains why the Bush junta is so unaccountable today--spying on Congressmen and reporters, dismantling the Constitution, passing more tax cuts for the rich, CONTINUING torture, and plotting to invade Iran. They are not beholden to us for their power. It also explains (to some extent) the fear, the cowardice, the shocking lack of spine among Dem leaders. Many of them, too, are not beholden to us anymore.

Our right to vote is the means by which we exercise our sovereignty as a people. Without it, we are quite literally stripped of our power to change things. And this was no accident--no inadvertent consequence of good intentions gone bad. TRANSPARENT elections are not difficult. If they had wanted to hold transparent elections in 2004, and beyond, they could easily have created a verifiable system of voting. Why didn't they?

Permitting trade secret code with no audit trail, partisan vendors, lavish lobbying, secret industry "testing" of the machines, absurdly lax oversight, and $4 billion in boondoggle funding, and bullying election officials with draconian deadlines to force them to purchase these untested, insecure, hackable voting systems--all this was intentional, aimed at corruption and chaos, and behind-closed-doors vote tabulation.

And, until we get rid of these machines, we are going to have more of the same--whether from the Bush junta, or from Bush-junta "selected"- or Bush-junta intimidated Democrats.

The key to democracy here--like the key to the democratic revolution that has been occurring in South America--is TRANSPARENT elections. If you want to protest torture, go picket your local county election official's office. That has far more potential for achieving change--and ultimately stopping torture--than anything else we could do.

We need to fight power with power. Illegitimate fascist power vs. the power of the people. We need to REVERSE our DISEMPOWERMENT. This is not a matter of ideas and persuasion. This is strictly a matter of who has the power. We, the people, clearly SHOULD have the power to stop this kind of lawlessness, and we don't.

We DO have a window of opportunity to change this--for I don't know how along--at the state/local level. And we had better take it.

------------------

A very important upcoming vote: Vote for DEBRA BOWEN for California Secretary of State in the Democratic primary next week. There is no more important political contest in the country.



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classof56 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-28-06 05:17 PM
Response to Original message
15. I'm beyond shocked anymore.
As usual, words fail me when I consider what this evil man and his evil minions have wrought in this country and in the world. Clearly, they have no conscience, no compassion and no shame. May they some day get the justice they deserve. That's the only prayer I can muster now.

Tired Old Cynic
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Che_Nuevara Donating Member (517 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-28-06 05:21 PM
Response to Original message
16. Not that I'm condoning the methods at Camp Delta,
and not that I'm condoning ANY of the methods of the Bush Administration ... I think G'mo ought to be closed down, I think that Bush and Rumsfeld ought to be tried for war crimes, I think the whole kit and caboodle ... BUT:


I remember a cover story in the New York Times, I think in 2002 or 2003, about a 12-year-old who was the leader of a cell of violent partisans in (I believe) Afghanistan. The photo that went with this article was a picture of this child and another boy his age, both carrying assault rifles.

I also remember reading accounts of grenade-throwing children reported by Vietnam veterans.


The West generally despises and condemns the thought of children as combatants, but not all cultures agree with us. Yes, they ought to be separated from the adults and handled differently, and yes, NOBODY ought to be in Camp Delta, but child combatants are a real and complicated threat, and taking children as POWs when they have assault rifles is better than smiling at them and letting them go back to what they were doing.
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w8liftinglady Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-28-06 05:22 PM
Response to Reply #16
17. while I agree with your premise-no access to lawyers..I have a
problem with that....for adults and children.
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Che_Nuevara Donating Member (517 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-28-06 05:24 PM
Response to Reply #17
18. I agree.
Note that I also said I was for closing down G'mo and doing something else -- something legal -- with the prisoners, both child and adult.
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Recursion Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-28-06 10:56 PM
Response to Reply #16
21. I'm not opposed to combatants being held without lawyers...
...I'm opposed to the idea of being expected to simply believe the Government when it says, "person A was an enemy combatant and so can be held without trial or access to a lawyer."
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IChing Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-28-06 11:37 PM
Response to Original message
22. 24 children held at Guantanamo, many as adults: Time
NEW YORK (AFP) - The US military may have held up to 24 children at its "war on terror" prison in Guantanamo Bay, Cuba, facing the same conditions and interrogations as adult inmates, Time magazine reports.

Some still at the prison have claimed through their lawyers that they have been beaten or abused, Time said.

The number of prisoners under 18 could have been higher as date-of-birth data are imprecise, said Time magazine, which analyzed Defense Department data. A Pentagon spokesman told the magazine that no juveniles are currently held at the prison.

The weekly's report comes after the London-based human rights group Reprieve said more than 60 minors, some as young as 14, have been held at the prison.

Time described one prisoner, Canadian citizen Omar Khadr, as "the most famous kid" at the detention center.

Captured in Afghanistan in 2002 when he was 15, Khadr faces a murder trial on charges that he threw a grenade that killed a US soldier, Time said. His lawyers are resisting the trial, saying Khadr was a child at the time of the alleged crime.>>>>snip

http://www.afp.com/english/news/stories/060529013837.89dvq0f7.html
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joemurphy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-28-06 11:37 PM
Response to Reply #22
23. Nice of Time to wake up to this. It was reported in a German
magazine at least 6 months ago.
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Marie26 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-28-06 11:37 PM
Response to Reply #22
24. We're imprisoning children now?
I didn't know this at all. And, of course, these children also had no right to a hearing or an attorney. This makes it even more of a human rights abuse.
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joemurphy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-28-06 11:37 PM
Response to Reply #24
25. Lately, Rummy is saying that we're holding everyone at Gitmo
for their own good. See, repatriating them to their home countries would lead to their being tortured. So it's better that we keep them and torture them ourselves. It all makes perfect sense in this best of all possible worlds we live in.
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Marie26 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-28-06 11:37 PM
Response to Reply #25
26. How generous of us! nt
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joemurphy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-28-06 11:37 PM
Response to Reply #26
27. Look at the positive side. If we hold them long enough
they will no longer be children, but adults. Then the problem will go away.
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Up2Late Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-28-06 11:37 PM
Response to Reply #27
29. That IS already the case, they were 13,14,15, etc. over 4 Years ago!
After 4 years, now they are nearly all 18+

NPR and The Guardian reported about several Children being held at GTMO several years ago.

<http://www.guardian.co.uk/usa/story/0,12271,941876,00.html>

<http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=1244823>
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joemurphy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-28-06 11:37 PM
Response to Reply #29
30. See, time heals all wounds.
Now, if we continue to hold them until they die, we won't have any more inconvenient problems with the adults.
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ninkasi Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-28-06 11:37 PM
Response to Reply #22
28. The ones responsible for this
Bush, Cheney, and Rumsfeld, are dishonorable and criminal. Some were as young as 10 years old? I cannot believe that the America I was born in, the one I always loved and cherished, has stooped this low under Bush and the neocon knaves. This is beyond comprehension, and beyond any humane standards. The whole cabal needs to face charges at the Hague, and answer for the sins they have committed.
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Pachamama Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-29-06 12:48 AM
Response to Original message
31. Isn't this a violation of Int'l Law and other treaties?
:shrug:

Just Wondering....

It's disgusting...Think of how in this country, we have specific laws that even establish differences in laws for juveniles and juvenile courts. Don't these children have any rights? Imagine, there are parents somewhere who don't know where their children are?

We are going in the direction of a lawless land and a land without rights for people....our Constitution doesn't mean very much to this administration, does it?
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Djinn Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-29-06 01:37 AM
Response to Reply #31
33. so what
Arresting foreign nationals in a foreign country where you have jurisdiction, and sending them to a military gulag (after sending them to a tyrannical nation of your choosing for handy hands free torture) is also against all international norms/treaties.

A few Afghan/Paksitani kids isn't going to stop them
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Up2Late Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-29-06 02:33 AM
Response to Reply #31
34. Yes, but that hasn't stopped the Bush Cabal for any of the other...
...violations of International Law. This is only one of about a Dozen International Laws they are currently violating.
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davekriss Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-29-06 03:22 AM
Response to Original message
35. I'm not surprised by any of this
In fact, I'm amused that so many can be surprised at this late date.

The very same people who brought us the American Holocaust in EL Salvador, Honduras, and Nicaragua of the eighties have been involved again in post 9-11 U.S. and Iraq and Afganistan -- John Negroponte, Elliot Abrams, John Poindextor, Otto Reich, Richard Armitage, and others. Same faces, different places.

The most frightening recent event for me was the appointment of Negroponte to "National Intelligence Director", with responsibility for coordinating intelligence activity within the continental United States. Does he plan to do to us what he did for Honduras and Nicaragua and Iraq? Develop and apply a Salvadoran solution here, too? Our own Battalion 3-16? Look the other way when we have an American El Mozote? Watched without comment while the FNI tortures then drops 31 Salvadoran nuns out of helicopters? Setting up a Guantanamo or Abu Graib is a piece of cake for someone like Negroponte; he successfully oversaw the construction of El Aguacate air base, used to service the illegal Contras and as a detention and torture center. Those Haliburton detention centers, will they be built for "special programs" under his care? If so then evil truly has been unleashed in the most powerful nation on earth and it will indeed be a long, painful struggle to wrest power back into the hands of We the People. I really think this is what we're in for.

O they'll maintain the illusion of "democracy" as long as they can, but they'll drop the charade as soon as it becomes too cumbersome, a slight obstruction to their agenda already well underway, an agenda that steels the financial fortresses of the few that make up a global investing class, all the while knowing we're about to enter an age of limits, an age when oil supplies decline, arable land grows scarce, safe drinkable water a rare and, in the future, packaged commodity bought and sold at profit. When global collapse comes, it is we who will stand locked out of their bubble communities, secured by their private armies, we who will bear the brunt of deprivation and misery and even death. It will happen in a flash, but by then it will be too late for us. Katrina in so many ways was the example in microcosm.

Things will get much worse before they ever get better -- IF they ever get better. As Hunter S. Thompson said somewhere, Big Dark Coming, Soon.

    ...And so, you say, you've learned a little
    about starvation: a child like a supper scrap
    filling with worms, many children strung
    together, as if they were cut from paper
    and all in a delicate chain. And that people
    who rescue physicists, lawyers and poets
    lie in bed at night with reports
    of mice introduced into women, of men
    whose testicles are crushed like eggs.
    That they cup their own parts
    with their bedsheets and move themselves
    slowly, imagining bracelets affixing
    their wrists to the wall where the naked
    are pinned, where the naked are tied open
    and left to the hands of those who erase
    what they touch. We are all erased
    by them, and no longer resemble decent
    men. We no longer have the hearts,
    the strength, the lives of women.
    Your problem is not your life as it is
    in America, not that your hands, as you
    tell me, are tied to do something. It is
    that you were born to an island of greed
    and grace where you have this sense
    of yourself as apart from others. It is
    not your right to feel powerless. Better
    people than you were powerless.
    You have not returned to your country,
    but to a life you never left.

    -- Carolyn Forche, Return, 1980 (about her experience in El Salvador)
While I agree that the Bush Regime is something extra special -- for example, with Bush we for the most part finally drop the pretense of proxy, up till now we've generally just funded, equipped, trained, and coached -- but it must be acknowledged that torture has been part of the clandestine arsenal for some time. And it is meant to destroy the community from which the tortured are snatched. For example (from Torture: State Terror vs. Democracy, by Orlando Tizon, 2002),

    Modern torture is designed to destroy the personality of the individual and by extension the community. Ultimately, it is a strategy designed to defeat democratic aspirations at the root, which makes it a tool of choice for unpopular regimes around the world.

    <snip>

    Torture as practiced today is primarily for the purpose of maintaining unpopular governments in power. "We therefore refer to torture as an instrument of power. Our research has shown that the torturers who work for governments try to break down the victims' identity, and this affects the family and the society as well." Thus the main purpose of torture is not to extract a confession but to break the individual's humanity and make an example of the victim before the community and thereby suppress all political opposition. Torture is the ultimate weapon for terrorizing and controlling the individual human being and the community. When members of a community are made powerless and lose trust in themselves and in one another, building a democratic community is rendered extremely difficult and complex. Torture then is an instrument to destroy democratic aspirations and actions, as history has clearly shown.
I completely agree with this assessment. Noam Chomsky and Edward Herman, too, are good sources for the history of how torture is used by the United States and other repressive states.

Torture, in my opinion, is terrorism in microcosm. Both are public narrative, both intend to intimidate, both are despicably immoral. It must be stopped, now. Shut down Guantanamo, shut down Abu Graib, shut down the clandestine detention centers around eastern Europe and the Caspian Basin, shut down the School of the America, bring the masterminds and their henchment to international justice at the Hague as the War Criminals that they are. Shut it all down, now!!!
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